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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2017 : 13:15:04
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We've been having some discussions in other threads. They've been about basically some of the concepts we've seen in Mystara, and how they might also be tied to Toril. Basically, things like "god corpses" or "giant meteors" or "dead primordials" or "radioactive material" etc... that might be giving off "raw magic" or "darkfire" that people may have studied and actually begun shaping the energy into the weave (possibly in a good way... or maybe not). Just going to note a few things and see where others take them without my input (initially.... I will try to not influence the results, that is if I can actually help myself... you know me...)
Some entries from Serpent Kingdoms
Parrafaire
The Naga Prince is the guardian of magical secrets and hidden places far below the ground. His goal is not to prevent access to such secrets, but to test the wisdom and resourcefulness of those who come seeking them. Parrafaire delights in creating clever traps, decoys,'diversions, and mazes, and in offering cryptic clues. His religious teachings are presented in the form of riddles and puzzles to be deciphered by the worshiper. The Prince of Hidden Secrets has few worshipers and no established church, although almost all nagas pay him at least indirect homage.
Also this
Of all the emergent aspects of the Great Scaled One, two deities in particular attracted the worship of most nagas: Ssharstrune and Shekinester. The former embodied the principles of curiosity, destruction, and possessiveness that had precipitated the World Serpent's fragmentation. The latter, known as the Naga Queen, became the keeper of the knowledge and wisdom originally held by the World Serpent, preserved within the eternal flame that she guarded.
After the fall of Mhairshaulk, both Ssharstrune and Jazirian, another fragment of the World Serpent, began to court Shekinester. The Naga Queen eventually chose Jazirian and became pregnant by him. Enraged by this decision, Ssharstrune attacked Shekinester, and she was forced to swallow him. In so doing, the Naga Queen took into herself the same destructive element that had fragmented the World Serpent in the first place. As a result, she acquired five guises: the Acquirer, the Empowerer, the Seeker, the Weaver, and the Preserver. This event was accompanied by a fivefold division in the naga race, forming the
five major subraces now known as dark nagas, guardian nagas,
iridescent nagas, spirit nagas, and water nagas.
Upon giving birth to Parrafaire, the Naga Prince, Shekinester
expelled Ssharstrune's remains and instructed her offspring
to hide away the destructive force that the corpse embodied forever, so that her fivefold aspect could not actually divide her into five separate goddesses. Parrafaire complied with her wishes, and
now both he and his mother are venerated as guardians of the
naga race.
Shekinester
Shekinester is a complex, pragmatic goddess with five aspects: the Acquirer (LE), the Empowerer (LG), the Seeker (CG), the Weaver (CE), and the Preserver (N). Each aspect is represented and venerated as a separate goddess.
The Acquirer (LE): This aspect of the goddess represents the urge to control and possess. She is often represented as a harsh-faced, shrewish female naga clinging desperately to her failing youth. As the Acquirer, the Five-Faced Queen seeks to hoard knowledge
and wisdom that is in danger of being lost or forgotten.
The Empowerer (LG): In her role as guardian of the young and uninitiated, the Empowerer is a bestower of wisdom. Represented with the head of a beautiful young maiden, she is generally viewed as kindly and merciful. As the Empowerer, Shekinester actively seeks opportunities to grant wisdom to those who have not even realized they have need of such. This aspect of her nature can also make her an unwelcome messenger who forces followers into initiations that can cause them "growing pains."
The Seeker (CG): Often represented as a childlike naga, the Seeker is filled with curiosity. This aspect of Shekinester drives the need to explore and study.
The Weaver (CE): This aspect of the Five-Faced Queen is the principle of active destructiona crone-faced naga who destroys in order to make room for new life. However she is also the embodiment of connections, bringing together disparate strands of knowledge to create new understanding. As the Weaver, Shekinester seeks to destroy anyone who enters the lost and decaying places she guards.
The Preserver (N): Seen as a middle-aged female naga, this aspect of the goddess is the keeper of the flame in the Court of Light
and the great maintainer of existence. She also has jurisdiction
over the spirits of the dead, greeting them with water, fruit, and
bread and protecting them from harm. As the Preserver, Shekinester
provides sustenance for mortals threatened by extinction, overwhelming force, or some other terrible threat.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2017 : 15:10:24
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The 'scaley-one' pantheon (and I am on the fence of whether this should have somehow been connected to the draconic pantheon... or is it?) is confusing, in that they've taken the aspect-thing to an extreme. Even though I'm the one who loves to go on about how "everything is really part of something greater" (I believe someone brought up those Russian 'nesting dolls', which was an apt analogy), the scaled pantheon is just a little too up-front about it (funny, coming from a group that gave us 'The Serpent', who is supposed to be the whisperer of lies and malcontent ). Unlike most religions/mythologies that try to obscure 'the truth' in cryptic mysteries, they just say, "this guy is really an aspect of this guy", which is mentally abrasive, IMO. Thus, I have a love/hate relationship with this group of gods.
So yeah, the one group that proves many of my cosmological theories are accurate annoys the crap out of me. Go figure. 
Now, as far as direct commentary on what you've said there, the first thing that jumped out at me is "the Rule of Three". The first three aspects that split-off appear to be Ssharstrune, Shekinester, and Parrafaire, which correspond to the Body, Mind, & Soul. So working within the framework of my other theories, i see The World Serpent initially splitting along these lines:
Ssharstrune Body Id
Shekinester Mind Conscious
Parrafaire Soul Subconscious
Ssharstrune (and BTW, note the first part of that name - Sshar!) represent wanton desire and uncontrollable urges. It comes from a primal place in the psyche. Shekinster is pure reason, without judgement or morality. Parrafaire is the morality - even animals possess it (just go online and you'll find hundreds of videos showing animals helping other animals. This comes from a special place, and it isn't learned behavior. it may be something coded into our DNA on an extremely basic level ("helping someone/something else makes the world a better place, thus a better place for my offspring" - so it ties into 'propagation of species' which IS hard-wired into all forms of life).
Oh, and if the name Ssharstrune is reminiscent of Shar, what of Parrafaire? "His goal is not to prevent access to such secrets, but to test the wisdom and resourcefulness of those who come seeking them. Parrafaire delights in creating clever traps, decoys,'diversions, and mazes, and in offering cryptic clues. His religious teachings are presented in the form of riddles and puzzles to be deciphered by the worshiper. " Sounds a LOT like a God(dess) of mysteries, no? Someone who would reward followers for hard work and research.
Which leaves Shekinester - pure thought and reason. Morality through pragmatism ("The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"). Aside from 'being one of the originals' and then giving birth to a god who loves 'mysteries' (after some conflict with its 'sibling'), I'm not really seeing a whole lot of Selūne there. On the other hand, we have five aspects, and a goddess who 'waxes and wanes' (ever-changing), and we also have a God that was at one time "whole and powerful" who is now lessened after a spilt.
Oh, and I think Jazirian is from the Draconic pantheon - note the 'sudden appearance' there. Plus, the whole 'winged serpent' thing. Of course, I still think the two pantheons are deeper connected than that, anyway.
I'm starting to get the idea that the whole Dawnwar started out as some sort of cosmic 'Game of Thrones' (sibling-sex and all).
EDIT:
I've been meaning to bring this up for a few days now, and here is as good a place as any: WHY does Selūne have SEVEN stars in her symbol? I think that's insanely significant, and we've been overlooking it. That has nothing to do with the moon - it almost appears that she may have seven aspects (which unfortunately doesn't align with Shekinester's five). The number seven is significant in The Realms, and is repeated over and over again (Seven Sisters, Seven Lost Gods, etc, etc).
Hmmmmm... 'Lost Gods'... maybe something there... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2017 15:15:15 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2017 : 16:13:41
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Jazirian its not part of the draconic pantheon, as no official source even puts her along the dragon gods. Even Monster Mythology puts her appart, as she is the goddess of Coualts.
If both pantheons are connected, is through Io/Asgorath (and perhaps Chronepsiswho is also Null), as its believed Io is another of the archetypes of the World Serpent stuff.
EDIT:
Curiously enough, I do not find an entry for Ssharstrune in Monster Mythology, while both Shekinester and Parrafaire are detailed in this book.
Does that mean that Ssharstrune is a late myth in the sarrukh mythology? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Aug 2017 16:26:13 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2017 : 17:18:18
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Basically, things like "god corpses" or "giant meteors" or "dead primordials" or "radioactive material" etc... that might be giving off "raw magic" or "darkfire" that people may have studied
Or: some fragments of Selune other than those that made the inner sea (or stuck as Tears).
They were separated from the moon by hit with that huge magic beam weapon, right?.. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2017 : 18:22:09
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EDIT:
I also find it serendipitous that Ed goes and mentions 'Darkfire' while I am working on converting Blackflame from The Five Shires to FR. I should be able to connect that to the 'Lakes Region' and the western Gulthmere.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Jazirian its not part of the draconic pantheon, as no official source even puts her along the dragon gods. Even Monster Mythology puts her apart, as she is the goddess of Coualts.
Its the stuff in Guide to Hell that makes me think that Jazirian and Ahriman are both 'primal (Celestial) dragons', those creatures I name 'Drękons' (for which terrestrial dragons are named).
But I ALSO think that that's just another flavor of Primordial (or rather, the group I've labeled 'Ordials', of which the Prime Ordials are just one branch). Beings of that magnitude don't really have a 'race', but rather, their groupings go by their purpose and power-level (so they can change groups/tiers, which 'race' does not... usually). So those older, primordial dragon gods wouldn't be 'dragons' in the truest sense - its just how the Dragons picture them. Second tier Dragon deities - like Tiamat and Bahamut - might be the first of the 'real' (Godly) Dragons. Ones that actually like to assume such physical forms (yet note Bahamut also appears as Marduk).
So, yeah... splitting hairs, once again.
Also, I picture Jazirian 'primal', like how some scientists believe some dinosaurs may have been feathered (so there may have actually been some type of feathered, 'flying serpent' at some point in time). I think the designers were thinking along the same lines, because of how they connected him to Ubtao (or as I like to call him - Ubt-Ao  ).
So if birds evolved from reptiles (or rather, bird-like dinos), perhaps the Aearee also worshiped 'feathered serpents' (or draconic Gods with that aspect). Most of us just assume the Aearee looked like Arakocra, but that might not be true at all. They were probably closer to the Raptorans (and it may have been a magical hybridization of them and Sylvan Elves that made the first Avariel {Avar'i-El = "children of the Air"}).
Anyhow, if The World serpent = Io, then its just a matter of semantics. They are really just all the same group.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 31 Aug 2017 19:06:16 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2017 : 19:06:55
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I confess that I don't understand that stuff of the World Serpent myth/concept/whatever. I tried, but everytime I read about the topic, I got more confused.
In Monster Mythology (a book someone point me out as the origin of the World Serpent in D&D) is said that the World Serpent is just a concept to represent the "multiplicity of being" among the gods of the reptile and amphibian races, that "stand outside the rest of creation" and are "primeval powers". As such, the World Serpent is supposed to be a being that has many aspects.
Such archetypes count Io (in his nine-fold stuff), Shekinester (a three-aspected goddess) and Jazirian. Jazirian is the odd one here, because in Monster Mythology he* is depicted as a normal, only-one aspected god, something that goes against the concept of the World Serpent stuff. Yet, the coualts believe Jazirian is the "perfect embodiment of the World Serpent archetype".
Then we have the reworking of the World Serpent concept in 3e, in Serpent Kingdoms, that introduces Ssharstrune and changes Shekinester from a three-aspected goddess to a five-aspected one, and makes the World Serpent an actual god instead of just a concept.
And later the re-reworking in 4e, making the World Serpent a Primal Spirit (the embodiment of the life-force of the material world itself) instead of a god.
*I'm sure I read in other source that Jazirian was female... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Aug 2017 21:29:47 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2017 : 20:30:27
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There's also the World Serpent myth in 2E Planescape's Planes of Hell.
It's a creation myth wherein the dual-entity World Serpent created all the planes themselves before becoming a pair of "overgod" entities: reclusive celestial female Jazirian and tyrannical fiendish male Asmodeus.
While this story is the basis of some material in Planes of Hell, it's never been referenced or supported in any other Planescape (or 2E or D&D) material.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18760 |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2017 : 20:42:20
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| The World Serpent always makes me think of the Wheel of Time LOL, and thus the ouroboros (serpent eating its tail). In RW myth, the ouroboros is often a symbol of magic/alchemy (the series I am reading now had this theme in one of its books). It also represents the nature's continual cycle (cue "Circle of Life"). I realize this may not have much to do with the World Serpent in regards to the Realms, but I'm just throwing it out there--especially because the snake-eating-its-tail symbol is said to have many aspects. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2017 : 21:28:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
There's also the World Serpent myth in 2E Planescape's Planes of Hell.
It's a creation myth wherein the dual-entity World Serpent created all the planes themselves before becoming a pair of "overgod" entities: reclusive celestial female Jazirian and tyrannical fiendish male Asmodeus.
While this story is the basis of some material in Planes of Hell, it's never been referenced or supported in any other Planescape (or 2E or D&D) material.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18760
Thanks. Your post not only remind me of that myth about Ahriman and that would make Jazirian a formerly "two aspected god", but also point me out to another source: in that topic Barastir mentions some stuff from Powers and Pantheons.
I'm still confused about the World Serpent, though...  |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Aug 2017 21:31:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2017 : 01:45:14
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EVERYONE is confused about the World Serpent.
I suppose you have to be a creature that 'sheds its skin' to understand the whole 'rebirth/aspect' thing.
I'm rather fond of the Jazirian/Ahriman story form GtH - its the only one that demonstrates the 'Great Wheel' is an artificial creation (just a vast, organic, 'machine'). However. later (I believe 4e, but it may have been lat 3e) sources state that Asmodeus is a 'fallen archangel', and NOT an aspect of Ahriman, which is closer to his Judaeo-Christian origins. I don't think one completely undermines the other, though - Asmodeus may have been tempted by the 'dark whispers' of Ahriman ("build your prison in me"). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Sep 2017 01:56:36 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2017 : 01:57:15
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Ok, so since I see some of the stuff has started, I'll posit some things I'm finding of interest. Parrafaire's basically hid away in the earth the body of Ssharstrune. So, she possibly becomes one of these dead god/rocks/dead primordials that maybe impacted the world and we can use later. Or maybe she didn't impact Toril and he somehow transported her deep into the earth.
Oh, and TBeholder, absolutely agree... the "dragon laser"... and yes, we really need another name.... making chunks of moon... the Crystal sun... or the guy that Selune cried into a gem, etc... all viable. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2017 : 03:45:36
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Dracoblaster?
The Aumanator 9000? (after all, its destroying something with pure, focused 'light').
And can we mount a few of those to Iakhovas' kin? On their frickin' heads? 
And this just now made me think of Superman's heat (laser) vision, so I thought, what 'eye power' - or just 'eye' - is associated with the elves? And then I thought, "Gruumsh!" So now I got this picture in my head of the 'elves of old' finding the eye of Gruumsh and mounting it to a high tower, and focusing the sun's rays through it, creating a 'Godly laser', Sort of like the Eye of Sauron, only cooler.
"Sir! The target's in sight!"
"Good, fire the Gruumsh-Eye!" |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2017 : 12:53:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Dracoblaster?
The Aumanator 9000? (after all, its destroying something with pure, focused 'light').
And can we mount a few of those to Iakhovas' kin? On their frickin' heads?
And this just now made me think of Superman's heat (laser) vision, so I thought, what 'eye power' - or just 'eye' - is associated with the elves? And then I thought, "Gruumsh!" So now I got this picture in my head of the 'elves of old' finding the eye of Gruumsh and mounting it to a high tower, and focusing the sun's rays through it, creating a 'Godly laser', Sort of like the Eye of Sauron, only cooler.
"Sir! The target's in sight!"
"Good, fire the Gruumsh-Eye!"
Lol, would be hard to mount even on a dragon's head, since its a hill with columns on it.... but I do like your thoughts... yes, let's fire the Gruumsh-Eye! |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2017 : 19:55:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Dracoblaster?
Dra-gun. (gah!)
quote:
And can we mount a few of those to Iakhovas' kin? On their frickin' heads?
Alas, there are no megalodons in Toril's oceans any more (supposedly). Let alone were-megalodons. Which raises more questions, yes.
Maybe, on Karpri? Hmm...
quote:
So now I got this picture in my head of the 'elves of old' finding the eye of Gruumsh and mounting it to a high tower, and focusing the sun's rays through it, creating a 'Godly laser', Sort of like the Eye of Sauron, only cooler.
"Sir! The target's in sight!"
"Good, fire the Gruumsh-Eye!"
Would these elves glorify an enemy this much?
Now, the Scro naming some superweapon "Eye of Dukagsh"...
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Lol, would be hard to mount even on a dragon's head, since its a hill with columns on it....
This may mean separate carriers for components would do. The whole flotilla of megalodons, swimming as a formation?
"All surfaced. Target is overhead."
"Aim!"
"Ready"
"Fire!"
<ZAP>
"Observer?"
"Station is completely destroyed. No surviving Neogi vessels are visible. There's only an expanding cloud of glowing cinders."
"That was 150 thousand miles. Hey, baby steps."
But then, why not just install it on one of Coliar's floating islands?
This would make the endless war of lizardmen and aarakocra more frantic. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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DarkExcalibur42
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 18:09:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
things like "god corpses" or "giant meteors" or "dead primordials" or "radioactive material" etc...
I'll be honest, after reading the thread I'm not 100% clear on what you're looking for... but the first thing that came to mind to me was like the Fifth Elephant in Discworld, where its corpse was buried deep in the disc and mined for its valuable resources.
So I'm imagining these mythic corpses have become part of the land, and their "fossils" can be harnessed for magical or practical purposes.
With that, two things jump to mind.
- Oerthblood. I want to say this material was described in an issue of Dragon Magazine, and it represented some sort of primordial element inherent to the world found deep underground.
- Starmetal, described on pg. 141 of Complete Arcane. It even has a Prestige Class associated with it on pg.41. It's literally meteor metal, which your original post did mention meteors.
Oerthblood is an adamantine alloy, appearing as a greenish metal inlaid with shimmering black flecks, and receives all benefits of adamantine. Weapons made of Oerthblood grant a +1 luck bonus on attack and damage rolls. A target that takes damage from an Oerthblood weapon receives a -1 penalty on all saves vs. magic for 1 round. Multiple hits stack. Armor made from Oerthblood provides a luck bonus on saves vs. magical effects equivalent to the DR provided by adamantine armor of the same category (+1, 2, or 3). Enchanting Oerthblood items takes 25% less time and XP as compared to normal items.
Hardness: as Adamantine; item HP x 15 original.
Cost to make: +150 gold for ammunition, +6,000 gold for a weapon, +10,000 gold for light armor or shield, +20,000 gold for medium armor, +30,000 gold for heavy armor. Masterwork cost included.
DM House Rule: Variant costs, 2,000 gold + 1,000 gold per pound of the item to be crafted. This allows players to supply the ore themselves to reduce costs.
Starmetal is meteoric iron with an inherent magical connection to the Material Plane. Starmetal is treated as adamantine for purposes of hardness, overcoming damage reduction, and granting damage reduction when used in armor. Weapons made of starmetal deal an extra 1d6 points of damage to any extraplanar creatures while they are on the Material Plane.
Hardness & hit points per inch of thickness are the same as Adamantine.
Cost to make +5,000 gold.
I am something of a repository of rare materials, since I love making weapons and armor out of them for my players. I think exotic materials are much more interesting than magical enchantments as it adds some lore to their construction. I frequently reward them with lbs. of raw materials for them to have crafted into whatever they like. |
"I excused myself by saying that I had set down nothing which was not strictly true, and he replied to the effect that therein lay my fault."
--Sir Henry Rider Haggard |
Edited by - DarkExcalibur42 on 21 Sep 2017 18:10:16 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 20:48:38
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What were those crystals/gems the Netherese loved to mine? Chardyln or some such? Maybe that was 'the bones of a primordial'.
EDIT:
Oh... and there is also 'Bloodstone', which is literally located in a region that a 'buried primordial' is found in. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Sep 2017 01:33:46 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2017 : 23:05:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What were those crystals/gems the Naetherese loved to mine? Chardyln or some such? Maybe that was 'the bones of a primordial'.
EDIT:
Oh... and there is also 'Bloodstone', which is literally located in a region that a 'buried primordial' is found in.
Hmmmm, I like that bloodstone piece.
Chardalyn were the soft black stones that the Netherese mined that could store spells until they were crushed. Yeah, it would be interesting if we found that some of the areas transferred from Abeir possessed more of this material. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Buried Secrets - Darkfire Mysteries - Meteors
