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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 06:16:32
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Buuuuut, if we take everything 'godly' as mythology, then we could theorize about how the two fairly similar deities and backgrounds could be one and the same, just being revealed to us through different perspectives (Drow and human).
And YES, the Raven Queen is FR canon now. I don't remember from where, but I KNOW it came up here, on these forums, some time ago. She was mentioned in at least one FR product. Turning her into a pre-Undead version of Kiaransalee would be brilliant on their part (perhaps killing the original set-off some contingencies, and an old clone of hers woke-up back on Threnody? A clone of her when she younger, and not quite so evil (I think a lot of that was from her association with Lloth). So maybe TRQ is really what Kiaransalee would have been like if Lloth hadn't gotten her hands on her. Makes sense to me.
And after Ao's last reset (just like DC's 'Crisis'), we'd still have a few 'glitches in the matrix'. If he brought back the Kiaransalee who died (was forgotten), and meanwhile the 'clone' (TRQ) is still around, we wind up with two very different versions of the same person. Pretty cool, no? Its like when they brought Buffy back from the dead (resuscitated her) there were two 'Slayers'. And The Raven Queen might not even know the other one is her, from some horrible 'alternate future', and Kiaransalee might have several reasons to not want anyone to know (like not letting Lloth get her mitts on her a second time - maybe she might feel TRQ is her 'second chance'?
And TRQ could have just made-up the story about her making people forget her name, because she herself can't remember it, and it would be awfully embarrassing for a god to admit it has amnesia. The clone could have gotten hit with the same 'whammy' as everyone else, and forgotten her name. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Aug 2017 16:04:08 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 08:03:14
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Mmm... weird, they denied it this year. So, if you happen to find the book where she is mentioned to be part of the Realms, I'll be grateful (it would greatly help me in my project to bring the Nentir Vale to the Realms... as well to quench my completionist curiosity)
As for her forgotten name, we can twist that. Her incarnation in the Realms don't have to match her incarnation in the Nentir Vale (as there is no Nerull for her to kill and steal the portfolio of death... sadly, they brought back old boring-"death is evil" Myrkul).
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Aug 2017 08:05:25 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 08:45:19
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I made the terrible mistake of using the search tool to search about the Raven Queen... you can feel the hate while reading... and the misinformation... but well, I guess no one here (perhaps, with the exception of Diffan) is a fan of 4e... kinda upsetting...
Changing to positive things, I've found Diffan's and Erik Scott de Bie's ideas of how to import the Raven Queen to the Realms... I can twist that for my project, being true to Nentir Vale lore and the FR concept. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 15:03:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The Raven Queen is unlike Kiaransalee. She didn't forgot her name. She wanted the whole cosmos to forget her name, because she wants to overcome the prohibition imposed upon her by the other gods when she reached godhood (that she is the goddess of death, but not of the dead). That's why she changed her name to "The Raven Queen" (potentially, the name gave to her by the kenku, that in Nentir Vale myths, are her creations).
Her story is detailed in Dungeon 171, and the Kenku's one in Dragon 411 and in the Last Garrison novel.
Thank you. I WILL go read those, because as you say, I do think the Raven Queen is interesting (I've already read dungeon 171 entry, but its been a few years). I just don't know a lot about her because I didn't follow 4e that well. However, I do know some things
She hates Orcus
She "lost" her name somehow (which a god saying they gave up their name may just be them lying)
She looks a lot like a beautiful pale skinned person with wings
some excerpts from Dungeon 171
Compared to the other gods in the pantheon, the Raven Queen is young. Her relative youth in no way reduces her influence in the mortal world or diminishes her importance to the larger cosmology.
So, she is recent
Tales about the Raven Queen’s origin are common knowledge for most, even if the common folk can’t name the Lord of the Dead who preceded her. As the stories go, the Raven Queen was a mortal queen, a warrior, or a figure of great power, but her great strength and achievements couldn’t shield her from the deadly plagues Nerull, then the god of death and the dead, unleashed to harvest more souls to feed his unnatural hunger. He, like others since, sought to become king over all gods. He believed the path to his conquest would be paved with the souls taken from the dead.
The mortal woman, however, gave him pause. In her he saw fabulous strength, character, and ambition to match his own. He made her his queen, called her Nera, and placed her at his side. But she would kneel to no one, not even a god, and once she learned to harness the souls and use their power, she led the uprising that culminated in her captor’s destruction.
What makes this particular myth interesting is that the Raven Queen, although struck down by an insidious plague, proved her superior wit and resolve by overcoming the ennui plaguing her and retaining enough of her drive to oust a god and seize his mantle. Other than Vecna, she is the only known deity who attained divinity after her mortal death.
So, someone who craved power and sought to harvest a lot of souls in order to become a great god.... but people are having problems remembering said god's name.... so they just name Nerull. Then they give her a name of Nera... which just seems too damn coincidental/similar. Just to note, Kiaransalee became a goddess via harvesting a whole world full of souls (Threnody). Kiaransalee was also believed to have been an undead prior to becoming a deity (a lich... which many liches BECOME a lich via a ritual that turns them when they die).
From the moment the gods stepped in and blocked her from claiming Nerull’s full mantle, the new deity turned her every resource to unshackling herself from their prohibition, going so far as to assume her current identity. She purged the world of her true name and took to calling herself the Raven Queen, all to circumvent the restrictions they placed on her. She quit the Astral Sea, abandoning Pluton to raise a new palace in the Shadowfell where she could unlock the souls’ secrets without interference from the meddling
powers.
The Raven Queen stood apart from her peers, taking no hand in their dramas unless she could grow her power as a result. For example, she came to Corellon’s side during the war against Lolth, lending her sorrowsworn against the fallen elves and their demonic allies. In her defeat, Lolth forfeited her claim to the domain of fate, leaving it available for the Raven Queen to assume as reward for her assistance. Again, when Khala, then god of winter, sought to grow her own power, the Raven Queen was there, fighting alongside the other gods to stake her claim to winter when Khala was eventually cast down. One can be certain if another divine struggle erupted in the planes, the Raven Queen would pick over the gods’ corpses and seize their mantles as she has before.
So, in this, she casts a spell on herself that effectively seems to remove her truename... guessing that's the best way to phrase it? She also works with Corellon AGAINST Lolth (which probably irked Lolth).
From the dragon article on Kenku
Kenkus are a secretive race, inclined to reveal little of their history. Those who allege to have spoken with them report that kenkus consider themselves among the first children of the Raven Queen. After
her ascent to godhood, she created flying humanoids from the world’s normal ravens. The kenkus’ affinity for shadow magic seems to supports that claim.
An age-old legend says the demon lord Pazuzu corrupted some kenkus, offering power in exchange for the true name of the Raven Queen. Those treacherous kenkus nearly succeeded, but the Raven Queen foiled their plot. In one version of the tale, she cursed all kenkus with a plague that diminished their numbers and changed them to flightless beings. Another version says that Pazuzu visited this sickness on them
for their failure, and that the Raven Queen did nothing to prevent the curse from running its course. Whatever the case, kenkus lost the power of flight and had to learn to live among the land-bound races.
So MAYBE the true thing is that the Raven Queen got rid of her Truename because the Kenku had turned on her. She did it to protect herself from Pazuzu.
Then for Kiaransalee we know
She currently looks like a beautiful drow female, but she was around prior to the descent of the drow. Elves of Evermeet does even show her prior to the descent and describes her as a beautiful dark elf.
She was a goddess to the elves before there were drow (she's mentioned in Evermeet: Island of Elves)
She killed everyone on Threnody, her home world and used the power to become a goddess in her own right.
She knows how to make someone's name be forgotten, because she did it to Orcus.
In a strange quirk of fate, High Magic is used on her to make her name be forgotten. Though apparently it isn't totally forgotten, so the magic wasn't as good, because her name is used in necromantic rites of power.
Some Kiaransalee homebrew ideas just for fun
Her original name is Kiara Unseelie. She was a ranking member of the Unseelie Court in the Feywild.
She is actually the daughter of Cegilune and an avariel male whose mother was Ilythiiri, thus why she has an association to hags. It would also explain why the raven queen is pale skinned and has black wings.
As the Raven Queen, she created the kenku SOMEHOW involving a servant of hers named Quorlinn. It should be noted that in the Kenku myth in monster mythology they are created by a powerful unnamed sky god (which the Raven Queen as a goddess of winter COULD be considered a sky god, and the unnamed aspect could have something to do with the next part)
She had removed her truename and become the Raven Queen to protect herself from Pazuzu when the Kenku betrayed her. Note, this fits in well with the idea that "Kiaransalee" was already a goddess of Toril from long ago, as it can make her a goddess of the avariels and the aearee and the kenku, but as the Raven Queen. Pazuzu cursed the kenku for failing him (though the curse was meant to affect the raven queen using her truename such that she would lose her wings and be turned evil... and without her wings, the flying races would turn from her).
Just to note, the aearee also fight against Yeenoghu's gnolls, and they summon Marrashi around this time (king of like winged versions of gnolls associated with disease magic). This could have also been an attempt to hit the Raven Queen by another demon lord.
The Raven Queen then helps Corellon oust Araushnee into the demonweb pits about a thousand years later. Around this same time the aearee start their downturn. What if at this time (or a little later) Araushnee/Lolth actually got revenge against the Raven Queen by somehow RESTORING her truename. She then gets hit by this nasty latent curse that Pazuzu had cast. She then loses her wings, her skin grows black, and she becomes drow and is forced to serve Lolth. She becomes known again as Kiara Unseelie, which over 30 thousand years become Kiaransalee.
This makes Corellon mad as well, and he learns how Pazuzu's curse works. Later he turns said curse upon the Ilythiiri through his mortal followers, causing the creation of the drow race. This explains why Kiaransalee looks like a dark elf before dark elves exist.
So, maybe the Raven Queen being a "new goddess" is because Kiaransalee once again lost her truename, which reverted her back to her old form as the Raven Queen?
BTW, doesn't the Raven Queen eventually die in the modules in 4e in some kind of face off against Orcus? You know, given that portions of Vaasa/Damara were involved with Abeir (I.e. Telos appearing), and given that the High Magic ritual that affected Kiaransalee was cast in that area.... hmmm, maybe I can work this along a path that I've really liked. Basically, have Velsharoon somehow resurrect Kiaransalee in Abeir, such that there's a split entity now. I just have this vision of Kia and Vel having a relationship (despite the foolish nature of it, it can be a story of "the heart wants what the heart wants" in a very dark way). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 15 Aug 2017 15:55:23 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 16:32:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Mmm... weird, they denied it this year. So, if you happen to find the book where she is mentioned to be part of the Realms, I'll be grateful (it would greatly help me in my project to bring the Nentir Vale to the Realms... as well to quench my completionist curiosity)
As for her forgotten name, we can twist that. Her incarnation in the Realms don't have to match her incarnation in the Nentir Vale (as there is no Nerull for her to kill and steal the portfolio of death... sadly, they brought back old boring-"death is evil" Myrkul).
I went looking for the reference myself, and couldn't find it. I may be 'mistakenly' thinking of the blurb that THIS THREAD is about.
That, and the fact that FR = D&D now. There is no 'core', and we've seen tons of core being ported into FR, or rather, the 'greater D&D setting' (The Realms is just a 'focal point' of the planer tableau, which includes all worlds and canon). Thus, no matter how people may hate it, technically, The Raven Queen IS part of FR lore by default, because she is connected to other gods in planer lore, and all of that is part of our 'Over-Cosmology'. She may not have a noticeable presence in Faerûn, but she exists within the same multiverse, and if guys like Acererak can come and go as he pleases, so can The Raven Queen. No matter how much people around here seem to hate her.
But you know, despite the fact I like spinning her as Kiaransalee (or that Kiaransalee may have been a 'failed' version of her), she is more of a Queen of Air & Darkness type. And in FR, Auril became that deity (which BTW, if you read the fey mythos, that means the Fey HAD TO have started out on Toril... because they left the QoA&D behind... in Ladinion). It also fits with her 'forgetting who she was'. Perhaps 'curing' her of the Black Diamond corruption caused her amnesia (if it was 'cut-out', it may have been the deific version of a lobotomy).
So the Fey/Seldarine pantheons try to fix poor little QoA&D, and they remove all the 'bad parts' and get the Raven Queen. And they toss the leftover corrupted bits onto an unsuspecting world named Threnody... 
Thats another way to spin things - I can easily connect all four and make it work (although WotC has already canonically connected Auril and the QoA&D... unless they retcon that as well in 5e). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Aug 2017 20:06:55 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 16:35:01
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I did a recap of her history from all the sources I have here: here. It includes stuff of Nerull as well.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, someone who craved power and sought to harvest a lot of souls in order to become a great god.... but people are having problems remembering said god's name.... so they just name Nerull. Then they give her a name of Nera... which just seems too damn coincidental/similar. Just to note, Kiaransalee became a goddess via harvesting a whole world full of souls (Threnody). Kiaransalee was also believed to have been an undead prior to becoming a deity (a lich... which many liches BECOME a lich via a ritual that turns them when they die).
There is an article about Nerull in 4e (Dragon 427), that confirms he was the one who raised her. Also confirms that Nerull is still living somehow (we already know that, as he exists in Oerth).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BTW, doesn't the Raven Queen eventually die in the modules in 4e in some kind of face off against Orcus?
Canonically? She don't. There is the possibility that she may die in your campaign if the players cannot stop Orcus, but canon assumes that she is alive and well, as she is used in later products of the 4e line. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 16:49:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats another way to spin things - I can easily connect all four and make it work (although WotC has already canonically connected Auril and the QoA&D... unless they retcon that as well in 5e).
Worst, they ignored that. Like the whole issue about Talos and Gruumsh.
About the Raven Queen, we can just say that she is an interloper from the Nentir Vale, that came to Toril during the post-Spellplague years. She just one day meet with Kelemvor in Gloomwrought (we know the Shadowfell is one of the crossroads of the multiverse), and he fell in love because she looks like Midnight (but goth), and so invited her to the Fugue Plane in the Realms. As she is super ambitious and with aims to get more power, she took advantage of naive Kel and became a minor god like Jergal (we can use Eric Scott de Bie's idea to explain her role in the Realms). She was just plotting to take Kel's position when...Second Sundering time, boyz!
When Ao remade the tablets of the status quo, she had a foothold in the Realms as a servant (and lover) of Kel, so Ao had to admit her as a minor goddess of Faerûn, because rules. However, that fixed her position in the Realms (as the Tablets control the place of all gods and primordials in Realmspace), so she cannot usurp Kel, unless Ao allows it.
I don't feel the necessity to replace another god with her, not when Eric gave us an excellent idea on how to adapt her to the Realms. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Aug 2017 16:55:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 16:51:21
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There is a BIG problem with her history (that Nerull's been around fairly recently, and yet it says she killed him thousands of years ago), but instead of seeing that as a problem, I see it as an opportunity. A big part of her history is 'unknown', including her name. That could mean - as I theorized above - she may have fabricated parts of her back-story herself. Her wonky history with Nerull not only lends credence to that theory, it practically verifies it as factual (since the entirety of her back-story hinges upon a rather obvious lie).
She may not even know its a lie - maybe someone else gave that story to her, or she had it planted in her mind. Who knows? What IS 'factual' is that something that must have happened fairly recently (in the past few centuries) she thinks happened thousands of years in the past. Now, we can go back to all these 'temporal anomaly' theories (which are fun to play with in FR, only because we have canon that says crap like "...reached backwards and forwards in time..."), but I think this is a clear case of "the simplest solution is usually the correct one" (since we have canonical evidence her 'past' has been tampered with, we can just assume some or all of it is also incorrect). Plus (and I am 'meta-gaming' here) - she's really only appeared recently! Why haven't we seen her before? Why was she never mentioned in On Hallowed Ground, or any other Planescape product (we know why, but like I said... meta-gaming...)?
She is a 'recent power' (probably an older power that has just risen to the title of 'The Raven Queen'), and thats fairly obvious, but she thinks she's not, and whats even weirder, many other Gods who should know the truth aren't telling her...
... and MAN, can we have a field day with THAT one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Aug 2017 16:52:19 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 17:07:10
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She can have killed an aspect of Nerull... maybe her whole story was Nerull's plaything, but in the end things went awry and Nerull lost one of his aspects and part of his divinity (that would explain the Raven Queen's ascension to godhood... she leeched part of Nerull's divinity).
The main issue is that she has a greater role in the Kinstrife Wars (she helped Corellon against Lolth) and on the Winter War (that's an event not as important as the Kinstrife Wars, but also happened in the past). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Aug 2017 17:08:33 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 17:21:48
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Ya know, if we wanted to go a little nuts (we haven't already?), we could do something really weird (and this is the part where you folks who hate 'time explanation' give a collective grown).
I mentioned DC's 'Crisis' series, and we see how Marvel followed suit and keeps 'reinventing' their timeline(s) as well. That's basically an in-setting 'retcon', a'la Star Trek (so the guys in charge get to claim "its NOT a retcon!") And I just discovered last night while researching something else we have CANON that says there is at least more than one version of D&D's multiverse (so its part of an Omniverse). There is another version of the D&Dverse where Tharizdun won, and thats where the Sharn came from (and I truly, TRULY hate that). In our (D&D) universe, Tharizdun was imprisoned instead... on the world of the Sharn (please don't ask me to explain that... I don't get it either). Someone at WotC is really in love with the word 'Sharn' (so much so they named Eberron's most important city that).
So what if these four goddesses-that-might-be-one are 'might have been' versions? What if my other theory about 'side-worlds' (cosmic toy-chests where Overgods store stuff they want to keep, even though it got destroyed) is true? And the big problem with pulling stuff out of the 'no longer is' box/world is that you cause timeline anomalies. For example, I think that's precisely what happened with Shevarash now - there was a Shaveresh, and then the timeline got altered, and instead Shaverash appeared thousands of years later in the new timeline... except that he still appeared before the changes were made, and there are stills stories of him from back then (a 'glitch in the matrix').
I've pictured the elves having 'chrono-shielding' on their most valuable book-vaults. Perhaps Candlekeep does as well (that keeps books, etc., from getting altered when the timeline gets altered, so names aren't 'erased', like in the case of Kiaransalee, etc.) That would be a good explanation why Candlekeep would have 'factual' books that disagree with each other (which would include all of our RW D&D sourcebooks from every edition).
Anyhow, all these death and cold-related goddesses are 'echoes' of the same person, from different timelines. If Marvel comics can do it (Cable, etc.), then why can't we? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 17:36:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
The main issue is that she has a greater role in the Kinstrife Wars (she helped Corellon against Lolth) and on the Winter War (that's an event not as important as the Kinstrife Wars, but also happened in the past).
Which - since we know some of her history has been 'altered' - doesn't necessarily have to be true.
As I've said above, it seems to me that she has a 'fake' history, one that many gods - both good & evil - seem to be aware of, and yet aren't telling her about.
Here's one scenario: What if someone like Tharizdun wanted Nerull back (after he was killed - I'm not going for the 'aspect' thing this time). What if he (as 'The Dark God') was responsible for the original corruption of Titania's sister - her 'forgetting herself'? So he makes a deal with the Seldarine - who have already used their 'High Magic' to create anomalies in time (utilizing the 'Butterfly Effect') - to alter events in the past so the dwarves never found the Black Diamond, and she (Auril?) is not corrupted. Tharizdun has to give up one of his major victories (forcing the Fey to flee the Prime Material), but in return - in the new timeline - Nerull is alive and well right up until modern times. Because Auril was never 'evil' (just bitchy, LOL), she never tried to take Nerull's stuff. This could also explain the very different spin we have on Auril in 4e (which may have reverted in 5e) - every time the timeline is 'tweaked' (as Ao has done), there is 'leakage' from alternate realities.
That makes The Raven Queen an 'echo' of an alternate timeline version of herself - a god without any real past - but because she has followers, she manage to retain her existence. And if Kiaransalee was supposed to be the 'end game' of the original timeline (a Fey goddess turned to evil by The Dark God's machinations), then it was actually Kiaransalee who was the 'echo'... and now she's faded away.
And now my head is starting to hurt, as it always does when I start thinking about 'Timey Whimey stuff'. I wonder what Torillians call 'The Mandela Effect'?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Aug 2017 17:38:34 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 17:45:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I wonder what Torillians call 'The Mandela Effect'?
Nowadays, some sages from Candlekeep just came up with with this term, the "Ao effect", that I guess is pretty similar to our Mandela Effect. 
BTW, I'm going to candlecanoning this. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 15 Aug 2017 17:46:09 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 18:05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I did a recap of her history from all the sources I have here: here. It includes stuff of Nerull as well.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, someone who craved power and sought to harvest a lot of souls in order to become a great god.... but people are having problems remembering said god's name.... so they just name Nerull. Then they give her a name of Nera... which just seems too damn coincidental/similar. Just to note, Kiaransalee became a goddess via harvesting a whole world full of souls (Threnody). Kiaransalee was also believed to have been an undead prior to becoming a deity (a lich... which many liches BECOME a lich via a ritual that turns them when they die).
There is an article about Nerull in 4e (Dragon 427), that confirms he was the one who raised her. Also confirms that Nerull is still living somehow (we already know that, as he exists in Oerth).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
BTW, doesn't the Raven Queen eventually die in the modules in 4e in some kind of face off against Orcus?
Canonically? She don't. There is the possibility that she may die in your campaign if the players cannot stop Orcus, but canon assumes that she is alive and well, as she is used in later products of the 4e line.
Gotcha, in the end, whether its Nerull or someone else doesn't make a big difference. I just noted that they left it somewhat ambiguous possibly on purpose in the earlier dungeon mag article (since they said common people weren't sure combined with the next sentence starts with "the story goes" or something like that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 18:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats another way to spin things - I can easily connect all four and make it work (although WotC has already canonically connected Auril and the QoA&D... unless they retcon that as well in 5e).
Worst, they ignored that. Like the whole issue about Talos and Gruumsh.
About the Raven Queen, we can just say that she is an interloper from the Nentir Vale, that came to Toril during the post-Spellplague years. She just one day meet with Kelemvor in Gloomwrought (we know the Shadowfell is one of the crossroads of the multiverse), and he fell in love because she looks like Midnight (but goth), and so invited her to the Fugue Plane in the Realms. As she is super ambitious and with aims to get more power, she took advantage of naive Kel and became a minor god like Jergal (we can use Eric Scott de Bie's idea to explain her role in the Realms). She was just plotting to take Kel's position when...Second Sundering time, boyz!
When Ao remade the tablets of the status quo, she had a foothold in the Realms as a servant (and lover) of Kel, so Ao had to admit her as a minor goddess of Faerûn, because rules. However, that fixed her position in the Realms (as the Tablets control the place of all gods and primordials in Realmspace), so she cannot usurp Kel, unless Ao allows it.
I don't feel the necessity to replace another god with her, not when Eric gave us an excellent idea on how to adapt her to the Realms.
Just to note, I wouldn't want to replace. I'd want both, but I'd also like to put some link. So, basically they become two gods that have split from one, and it having something to do with the name magic and the splitting of Abeir. I plan on having Velsharoon on Abeir using necromantic magic to essentially "awaken" deities that should be dead, so he actually awakens Kiaransalee and she becomes his queen just as the Raven Queen becomes Kelemvor's consort.
Granted, there is an easier way to do it, but this kind of heavier work I find more appealing. For instance, the part with the raven queen being around during the time of the Aearee and being one of their goddesses makes good sense to me. The idea that she stripped her name in order to stop Pazuzu, and that Lolth turned it around on her later, also a good story.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2017 : 19:35:02
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Personally, if some of us are going this route (perhaps not for the 'CandleKanon itself - more like that part of wiki that's 'unofficial alternatives'), I'd prefer to have a clone then another 'aspect', or 'an echo from an alternate timeline'. Although one sounds more 'mythological', and the other more 'epic' (comic-bookish?), the clone thing is something established in FR as "something that sometimes happens"; that clones occasionally wake-up when they are not supposed to, or multiple ones are active at the same time, and problems ensue. Now imagine a clone of someone who later ascended to godhood (hmmmm... I wonder if someone might have made a clone of Midnight...). We have this with Manshoon, and with have this with Alias, and we probably have other instances I can't recall off the top of my head. IF Kiaransalee had a clone back on Threnody, it may have awoken when she was 'forgotten about', but due to the nature of the magic surrounding her disappearance (the 'forget spell'), she would NOT have memories of her past life (or future, after she was cloned, for that matter), and we have someone with 'goddess potential' but with no real memory of her own identity. It really does sound like a perfect fit for The Raven Queen. Now, we have a choice of whether the 'Nerull story' actually happened, or was that a 'cover story' made-up by TRQ or some other god? Did it happen to 'the other Raven' (hmmmm... TWO 'Ravens'... No... don't go there Mark... this is already WAY too convoluted...)? Did Kiaransalee try to take Nerull's stuff, before she tried the same tactic with Orcus?
Auril may or may not be involved - she's another excellent fit for TRQ, but then we have to tie her to all the Queen of Air & Darkness crap, and the Fey (which is fun, but makes the whole thing even more messy). Then again, the 'QoA&D is another power who 'forgot herself', in a manner of speaking (the Black Diamond caused a major personality shift). It could be similar to what happened to Laeral , who also 'forgot herself' (changed personality) when she wore a crown with a Black Diamond. Laeral really doesn't remember her time as 'The Witch Queen' (yet another 'Ice Queen'?), so I bet if the curse of the Black Diamond were removed from the QoA&D, she'd be in much the same boat.
And, of course, we have Asl... errr... Nobanion, in case one of these 'Ice Queens' get out of line. Its pretty-much his job, ya know.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Aug 2017 19:56:42 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2017 : 20:38:08
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Not to be the spoilsport here, but I feel that this is overcomplicating stuff, really. IHMO, the Planescape solution is the best one, because one:
1. Like clones, interloper deities is something that already happened in the Realms.
2. Beyond a few minor similarities, neither Auril, Kiaransalee or the Queen of Air & Darkness fulfills one of the main roles of the Raven Queen: that of being the goddess of fate. (Is there a god of fate in the Realms, anyways?)
So, I don't have problem with another interloper, if we can get a way to not disrupt the harmony of the pre-existent pantheon. And I guess making her a lesser goddess under Keleboring is the best approach. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2017 : 22:14:58
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| I'd go for interloper, too. The Realms has long had "immigrant" deities. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 01:41:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now imagine a clone of someone who later ascended to godhood (hmmmm... I wonder if someone might have made a clone of Midnight...).
One of the things I've often wondered is if Midnight weren't a magical construct imbued with memories. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 02:01:19
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| Kind of like Alias? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 03:49:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Not to be the spoilsport here, but I feel that this is overcomplicating stuff, really. IHMO, the Planescape solution is the best one, because one:
1. Like clones, interloper deities is something that already happened in the Realms.
2. Beyond a few minor similarities, neither Auril, Kiaransalee or the Queen of Air & Darkness fulfills one of the main roles of the Raven Queen: that of being the goddess of fate. (Is there a god of fate in the Realms, anyways?)
So, I don't have problem with another interloper, if we can get a way to not disrupt the harmony of the pre-existent pantheon. And I guess making her a lesser goddess under Keleboring is the best approach.
The 'Overpower' of Zakhara (who was later downgraded, so now I just call her a 'high God') is called FATE - that's her name, and thats her thing. She is in charge of everything down there, even the gods, so she is like the 'local foreman' under Ao.
Nothing is really known about her, aside from the name, and the fact that she has complete say over Zakhara. It could be The Raven Queen, but on the other hand, nothing points to it being her, either, aside from the name/portfolio. And like Ao (and Maztica, and the Celestial Emperor), no one really worships her. A few might, but she doesn't grant spells - she's 'above all that'.
And a land of blistering hot deserts doesn't really sound like the right place for her (although there are a number of permanent glaciers in the mountains, near the yakfolk lands).
EDIT:
Oh! And Auraushnee (now known as Lloth) was a goddess of Fate in the Fey/Elven pantheon! And we know TRQ helped them against Lloth, so maybe TRQ grabbed that portfolio then? (no-one else bothered to.) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Aug 2017 14:12:04 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 05:07:40
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| In fact, that is canon Nentir Vale stuff. Beyond the fact that she grabbed the portfolio from Lolth's hands (therefore becoming a deity of the Feywild as well), we don't know how she got it. The only known stuff is that the Raven Queen helped Corellon to fight against Lolth and her "demonic allies", and after Lolth was defeated and casted down from the Seldarine, TRQ either stole the portfolio from Lolth, claimed it because nobody in the Seldarine bothered or wanted it, or asked for it to Corellon as a payment for her aid. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Aug 2017 05:08:37 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 11:22:44
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| I think FR has several overgods, AO, Fate, the Celestial Emperor, perhaps others, but I think AO is the head overpower, the others are just regional. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 12:00:05
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Kind of like Alias?
Exactly, as if the creation of Alias was a "test" that some gods were involved with... or even as if Midnight IS one of the Alias clones, but one in which Moander's influence was pushed away or something.
Or, what if she were an engineered construct created by someone in the know for the exact purpose of dying and somehow kicking off the spellplague. I mean, she didn't last long, and her symbol included a river of blood (which yes, had something to do with her raising up as a goddess, which I can't even remember anymore). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 17 Aug 2017 12:06:04 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 14:37:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I think FR has several overgods, AO, Fate, the Celestial Emperor, perhaps others, but I think AO is the head overpower, the others are just regional.
I think like in one product they were actualy said to be 'Overpowers', but then after that TSR/WotC retracted that, so then they weren't. Unfortunately, they never bother to explain WHAT they were.
Hence my category of 'High God' (Pantheonic Leader). In some case the High God is just a greater god granted that status, but in others I think it is a case of LARGE quantities of folk coming over from another Crystal Sphere (The Shou, and thats CANON), and the Overpower of THAT sphere creating an aspect of itself to send to the new sphere, to 'watch over' his charges (not the mortals - the Gods they worship). Since other spheres already have Overpowers guarding them, they take a subsidiary role.
Thus, Maztica, Fate, and the Celestial Emperor could all be 'overpowers', but they are not the Overpower within Realmspace. Ptah, BTW, is probably another one - note his universal presence in Spelljamming, and the fact that most worlds seem to have something akin to 'Egyptians'.
And I don't think the Asian (Chinese) pantheon, the Norse pantheon, or the Pharonic pantheon are native to earth, either (YES, I know RW they are, but I am talking in terms of the D&Dverse). I think most worlds 'grow' their own, and then some spread out from there. I'm not sure what Earth's original one might be - Celtic would be a good choice, but it could even be something that was destroyed by all the interlopers. A few pantheons/Powers might be primordial (not the creature, I am just using it as the English-language term here), as in, "existed before the destruction of The First World".
And since I just mentioned that: while reading through some stuff n one of these (longer) threads the other day, i came across the term, "The First Work", and I think I may have overlooked it before because I was misreading it as 'the First World'. What is that? Its from 4e, no? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 21:43:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In fact, that is canon Nentir Vale stuff. Beyond the fact that she grabbed the portfolio from Lolth's hands (therefore becoming a deity of the Feywild as well), we don't know how she got it. The only known stuff is that the Raven Queen helped Corellon to fight against Lolth and her "demonic allies", and after Lolth was defeated and casted down from the Seldarine, TRQ either stole the portfolio from Lolth, claimed it because nobody in the Seldarine bothered or wanted it, or asked for it to Corellon as a payment for her aid.
You know, I think I actually read that the other day, in the Wiki, and it stuck. I've always known Araushnee had 'Fate' (I've used that elsewhere, making a younger aspect of her as part of a tripartite deity of destiny, like the Fates, or Norns, in Kara-Tur, of all places).
The reason why I made TRQ's backstory so convoluted in my theories was twofold: #1, as an ex-GH DM, I find it jarring she "killed Nerull thousands of years ago". It makes no sense to me. Unless we fix that somehow, I just can't accept her, anywhere. I would actually prefer to say 'Nerull' is a title Tharizdun has bestowed upon more than one (corrupted) God.
And #2, as crazy as some of these theories sound regarding Kiaransalee and/or Auril, YOU have to understand where most of us are coming from. YOU like TRQ, because you came out of 4e, and are willing to just accept her, as is, without any fanfare. The majority of us here are 'grognards' - we revel in 'the old lore'. I may be over-complicating The Raven Queen's story, but I have very good (personal) reasons for doing so - I want her lore to stick in FR. I want FR fans to accept her, and I think the best approach to that is this 'she's always been there all along' sort of methodology. I LIKE her; that's why I want others around here to like her, and vote her into the 'CandleKanon'. In fact, I've merged her with PF/Golarion's Pharasma (who is also a 'D&D' goddess of death and Fate), because she's another I really like. I'm just tired of dreary, male death gods. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Aug 2017 23:13:47 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 21:54:14
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I'm all right with the Raven Queen, though the only exposure I have had to her has been D&D novels (like the Last Garrison and those centering around the Abyssal Plague story.
But I (personally) like Kelemvor as the god of death. Since crows/ravens were said to "guides" to the afterlife, perhaps the Raven Queen plays more of a "grim reaper" sort of role, where she guides souls to the Fugue Plane, and Kel and the other deities take over from there. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 22:00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In fact, that is canon Nentir Vale stuff. Beyond the fact that she grabbed the portfolio from Lolth's hands (therefore becoming a deity of the Feywild as well), we don't know how she got it. The only known stuff is that the Raven Queen helped Corellon to fight against Lolth and her "demonic allies", and after Lolth was defeated and casted down from the Seldarine, TRQ either stole the portfolio from Lolth, claimed it because nobody in the Seldarine bothered or wanted it, or asked for it to Corellon as a payment for her aid.
You now, I think I actually read that the other day, in the Wiki, and it stuck. I've always know Auraisnee hade 'Fate' (I've used that elsewhere, making a younger aspect of her as part of a tripartite deity of destiny, like the Fates, or Norns, in Kara-Tur, of all places).
The reason why I made TRQ's backstory so convoluted in my theories was twofold: #1, as an ex-GH DM, I find it jarring she "killed Nerull thousands of years ago". It makes nos sense to me. Unless we fix that somehow, I just can't accept her, anywhere. I would actually prefer to say 'Nerull' is a title Tharizdun has bestowed upon more than one (corrupted) God.
And #2, as crazy as some of these theories sound regarding Kiaransalee and/or Auril, YOU have to understand where most of us are coming from. YOU like TRQ, because you came out of 4e, and are willing to just accept her, as is, without any fanfare. The majority of us here are 'grognards' - we revel in 'the old lore'. I may be over-complicating The Raven Queen's story, but I have very good (personal) reasons for doing so - I want her lore to stick in FR. I want FR fans to accept her, and I think the best approach to that is this 'she's always been there all along' sort of methodology. I LIKE her; that's why I want others around here to like her, and vote her into the 'CandleKanon'. In fact, I've merged her with PF/Golarion's Pharasma (who is also a 'D&D' goddess of death and Fate), because she's another I really like. I'm just tired of dreary, male death gods.
That is perhaps the best explanation you could give for why I'm interested in mixing her and Kia. If she's just "another interloper".... I'm already yawning. Sure, I like her, but why should she suddenly be available without... getting killed by every other deity of death. Whereas if she's some spin off that's kind of got these other deities confused ("wait, wasn't that Kiaransalee? What's going on here.... tread carefully"), I see her maybe surviving and people going "hey, that's neat, yeah, I like her". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 23:15:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And since I just mentioned that: while reading through some stuff n one of these (longer) threads the other day, i came across the term, "The First Work", and I think I may have overlooked it before because I was misreading it as 'the First World'. What is that? Its from 4e, no?
Is the poetic name of the Nentir Vale world. The scholars and sages of the Nentir Vale believe that theirs was the first world the gods finished before the Dawn War, hence it was their "First Work". When someone needs a name for this world beyond the world, they use the term "First Work".
Mind, the Nentir Vale world really has no name but "The World", as all the other planets of that "sphere" (in Spelljammer terms--we can call it, Nerathspace, as Big Mac from The Piazza christened it), were destroyed during the Dawn War (save for the continent of another planet, that now floats in space and has its own civilization, a la Spelljammer).
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You now, I think I actually read that the other day, in the Wiki, and it stuck. I've always know Auraisnee hade 'Fate' (I've used that elsewhere, making a younger aspect of her as part of a tripartite deity of destiny, like the Fates, or Norns, in Kara-Tur, of all places).
The reason why I made TRQ's backstory so convoluted in my theories was twofold: #1, as an ex-GH DM, I find it jarring she "killed Nerull thousands of years ago". It makes nos sense to me. Unless we fix that somehow, I just can't accept her, anywhere. I would actually prefer to say 'Nerull' is a title Tharizdun has bestowed upon more than one (corrupted) God.
And #2, as crazy as some of these theories sound regarding Kiaransalee and/or Auril, YOU have to understand where most of us are coming from. YOU like TRQ, because you came out of 4e, and are willing to just accept her, as is, without any fanfare. The majority of us here are 'grognards' - we revel in 'the old lore'. I may be over-complicating The Raven Queen's story, but I have very good (personal) reasons for doing so - I want her lore to stick in FR. I want FR fans to accept her, and I think the best approach to that is this 'she's always been there all along' sort of methodology. I LIKE her; that's why I want others around here to like her, and vote her into the 'CandleKanon'. In fact, I've merged her with PF/Golarion's Pharasma (who is also a 'D&D' goddess of death and Fate), because she's another I really like. I'm just tired of dreary, male death gods.
Yeah, I know that. But something to take into account about the Nentir Vale is that is new stuff that didn't took into account old stuff. Nentir Vale is not Greyhawk (in fact, Nentir Vale was born as part of the Realms, but later they scrapped that idea, and transformed it into its own setting), is its own stuff.
So TRQ killing Nerull is something that doesn't take into account previous lore. The Nerull of NV is not the Nerull of Oerth. The killing of Nerull "thousand of years" ago makes sense in Nentir Vale lore, even if not makes sense in Greyhawk's lore. But, TRQ doesn't exist in Greyhawk lore, so there is no problem there.
The problem started in 5e, with its multiversal approach, and the fact that acknowledges the existence of both, TRQ and Nerull.
That's why I have the theory that she only killed an aspect of Nerull (the one who lived in the Nentir Vale's sphere). Perhaps one of its greatest aspects, the one he sent to the Dawn War, and leeched part's of Nerull divinity from this aspect. Then she somehow forbade Nerull to entering Nerathspace again, so he couldn't claim revenge on her.
So, for the people of the Nentir Vale, Nerull is dead, even if he is pretty alive for the people of Oerth.
This makes more sense that to say that she and Kiaransalee are one and the same, even when the two goddesses have nothing in common (TRQ don't even care for drow, for the matter). Yeah, we have the names stuff. But TRQ wasn't forced to forget her name (moreso, she didn't forget it), she only forced the rest of the cosmos to do it, without losing her power or her identity in the process. That's a bitchslap in the face of Kiaransalee, that no sooner after the people forget her name she became nothing...
Also, Kiaransalee also exists (or existed) as an independent drow goddess in the NV world. That's explained in the article about Orcus and Tenebrous. So, TRQ and Kiaransalee had coexisted in that world at some point (until Orcus either killed Kiaransalee or forced her to flee). We have seen Clark Kent and Superman in the same room, so to speak.
In fact, I find Pharasma more alike to TRQ, than Kiaransalee, Auril or the Queen of Air & Darkness (too bad that she is from Golarion and not the Realms). At least their roles are similar (though Pharasma is also a prophet, and that is not a role of TRQ but Ioun, another NV goddess), even if their backstories don't. And both are off-shots of Wee Jas, so they can overlap. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Aug 2017 23:24:53 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 23:19:57
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| Pharasma is like a cross between TRQ and Kelemvor (from what little I remember of TRQ, anyway, LOL). Being more familiar with Kel, she basically reminds me of a female Kel, with some difference, of course. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 23:27:28
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Yeah, its sort-of doing a 'mental sleight-of-hand' on people's perception of her (RW I am talking about). Turn a 'retcon' into a 'deeper secrets revealed' situation.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I'm all right with the Raven Queen, though the only exposure I have had to her has been D&D novels (like the Last Garrison and those centering around the Abyssal Plague story.
But I (personally) like Kelemvor as the god of death. Since crows/ravens were said to "guides" to the afterlife, perhaps the Raven Queen plays more of a "grim reaper" sort of role, where she guides souls to the Fugue Plane, and Kel and the other deities take over from there.
She had a part in that storyline?
Some of the Abyssal Plague novels had to do directly with FR - if she is in ANY OF THEM, then she is in an FR-related CANON storyline, thus making her FR canon.
There we go. Checkmate. 
(That's probably the logic some of us followed the last we decided she had to be canon.)
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Aug 2017 23:27:49 |
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SCAG: Tchazzar: wording is he actually back?
