| Author |
 Topic  |
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 13:47:06
|
Something just occurred to me, and I want to throw it down here before heading to work.What if its that they exist at different moments in time. For those
What if the Abeir and Toril thing is that they're are indeed out of phase, but its not the "out of phase" like we're used to reading where people like walk through rock as if it doesn't exist. If you are familiar with networking, I'm thinking of it like time division multiplexing... kind of like frame relay. Basically, lets say that if a minute were sliced up into 60 seconds. Toril gets say 59 of those seconds. Abeir gets 1. For 59 seconds, within realmspace, we have Toril. Then for just a second, we have Abeir. The people themselves don't see this changeover and they just see continuity of data, and maybe it affects everything in that crystal sphere at that moment. So, a spelljamming ship wouldn't see a difference. But maybe someone on the sun would see it happening. Maybe someone on the moon would see it happening too... except that Leira's illusion is going both ways.
The implications here would be that if someone or something on the moon or sun could effectively "leave" their protected space on the cusp of a timeslice somehow they could travel between Abeir and Toril. The other implication could be that time in Abeir and Toril travel at different speeds. It would also imply that basically the realmspace crystal sphere's connection to the demiplane of time was basically time-sliced somehow (damn elves). This would really screw with some of the concepts I've been delving, and there may be something in canon that specifically says that the people in Abeir have definitely seen a century pass.... but I figured it would be worth exploring for a few minutes.
From the 4e FR Player's Guide:
At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selūne, trailed by a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selūne.
Toril is the body that folk refer to as the world. In the aftermath of the Spellplague, it includes pockets of Returned Abeir that have replaced pockets of the old Toril. The planets primary and central continent is Faerūn. To the north of Faerūn is the arctic north, home to the polar icecap. To the west of Faerūn is the Trackless Sea, and beyond that horizon lies Returned Abeir, which completely replaced a land known as Maztica. To the south of Faerūn is the Great Sea. To the east of Faerūn are the Hordelands. Other continents exist as well, but the folk of Faerūn and Returned Abeir know little about those far-off lands.
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 14:21:39
|
The theory does not work for me; I prefer the idea that Abeir is basically a pocket dimension.
However, I don't know of anything that makes it explicit, either way, so it is theoretically feasible that you are correct, given my limited knowledge of Abeir.
So while I don't like the idea, I can't argue against it, either. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 16:48:56
|
They way Abeir is handled in the novels, is like if Abeir and Toril were in the same "space", but in different "dimensions". They also seem to travel in opposite/different orbits (as Abeir and Toril "mingle" every few hundreds years or so)
While I can say that is possible for Abeir and Toril to be in different time-streams (as this allow them to have different histories), I don't think those time-streams are in different speed rates. Because, as you said, there is canon stuff saying that the century also happened in Abeir. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 18:38:57
|
Its an interesting mental exercise, but I don't think I'd want that to be 'canon'.
In David Eddings Elenium and Tumuli series, he had different groups have different types of magic, and although they could produce very similar effects, how they went about it was the interesting part. Take 'Invisibility', for example: One group used illusion, in a similar fashion to how the Predator used Stealth tech in the first movie: projecting an image of the background on you so you just 'blend in'. Another (fey-like) group used something akin to 'Jedi Mind Tricks' - the simply used their telepathic powers to tell the other people's brains "you don't see me", and then they could walk right on past. The last one was used by the old/evil gods (and pertains to the topic) - they moved 'in those moments between the seconds'. Basically, if you watched the second-hand on a clock, they moved in that brief moment between the 'ticks'. You can almost think of it as 'frame Rates' in gaming, or how movies use to use subliminal messages before it was made illegal (one frame would have have a picture of food, but 99.9% of the people's brain wouldn't notice it... and then they'd get hungry, because your subconscious mind DID pick it up). So unless you were something like a Quickling (or The Flash, etc), your own brain would not operate fast enough to see the things hiding 'between the frames', as it were. I recall thinking it was a very interesting concept (and considering that was actually done in the 1950's, its pretty frightening to contemplate what they may be capable of now).
Another related theory (one I thought of many years ago and dropped almost immediately) is that Abeir IS Toril at a different point in time (like Pre-Sundering, maybe). The fact that it behaves more like a plane (or demi-plane) than a planet lends some credence to this theory, but only because I think the 'First World' was just a flat plane, like all the rest. However, as I've said, there would be too many problems with it, and it remains just another 'thought exercise' for me.
The theory I am leaning toward now is that its not a planet at all - its a demiplane - very much like Ravenloft - that exists within the Ethereal plane. The fact that its not directly connected to the Astral is a very good reason why they don't have magic (because all magic comes from 'on high', or in D&D terms, from the Outer Planes).
However, that should mean elemental magic should still work, using Raw magic (Primal Energy, Incarnum, whatever you want to call it). That could be why the Primordials are there, and why they can still grant spells (through 'pact' magic). Shadow-magic may also be possible there, but the rules we have for that are so arbitrary and non-sensical I try to avoid it (like the fact you were able to use normal magical spells with the 'shadow' descriptor using Arcane {Weave} magic). Or like how the two were incompatible, and yet, supposedly Mystryl's Weave was made up of both, and the new (now old) Mythal around Evereska contained both 'halves' of magic. The whole thing falls apart, because each designer pictured it differently and followed their own rules for it. So maybe you can only use spells with the shadow-descriptor using Shadow magic in Abeir, but no-one has figured that out yet (since Shar also apparently has no access). Also, her Shadow-Weave (can we just shorten that to Shadoweave?) should not be present, since it is 'in the spaces between the weave'. Ya know, very much like those 'moments between the seconds' I mentioned above. Thus, you'd have to draw power directly from the Shadow Plane (Shadowfell), and that is probably just as hard as trying to use Raw magic (like how it use to work with positive energy and negative energy back in 1e/2e - direct contact with ether would kill a mortal).
So, at the end of the day I think Abeir is just the Ethereal version of Ravenloft (in the Shadowfell), or Faerie (in the Feywild). With those, time moves oddly in relationship to the Prime Material, and also, the 'physics' are a bit different (and sometimes randomly changing). Hmmmm... now I have to think about an astral version of a 'Domains of Dread'. Oh wait! Thats probably what all those 'Godly Domains' are! 
So 'Domains' are just 'fixed points in unstable planes'. It takes some sort of powerful consciousness to hold it together, and force 'rules' onto it. Domain Lords, Gods, etc - they are just 'carving a slice out of the chaos', as it were. So who's the 'secret Lord of Abeir', I wonder? 
Ed would get that, as would anyone else who read The Chronicles of Amber.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 03 Aug 2017 06:08:28 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 18:50:05
|
On the other hand, I do like the part about it being 'out of sync', time-wise. Like Faerie, or Ravenloft. That has a LOT of traction (especially if we want to start bringing things back whole-cloth, and we don't want a million little 'McGuffins', which starts to look really stupid... ya know, like how all the authors kept their favorite characters alive with various deux-ex-machina).
EDIT:
Thinking more on that last statement I (jokingly) made above - what if Selūne was the 'secret lord of Abeir'? Sounds crazy, right? except SHE is supposed to be "Shar's opposite", and instead, we hardly see Selūne at all in FR, and its always about Mystra vs Shar. Where's Selūne during all that? She doesn't want to help her daughter against her sister? Is it because she is too busy elsewhere, or maybe has very limited access to Toril these days?
Like maybe... the most she can 'manifest' in The Realms is Lurue? 
EDIT2:
Okay, I know Ed 'borrowed' from a lot of places, especially RW folklore and mythology (don't we all?), but did he also dip into the Judaeo-Christian mythos? Satan is often called 'The God of the world' (the mortal world). As I think about what I just said above, what if Selūne got Abeir and SHAR got Toril? I'm pretty sure 'something' humongous landed on Toril a long, long time ago (I see evidence of it everywhere - notice how many mountain-ranges have a crater-like appearance? The Tunlands? Halruaa? It becomes so much more evident when you strip-out the rest of the terrain, especially the forests). Something ginormous 'rained down' upon Toril at some point. What if Toril is Shar's prison?
And Abeir would be Selūne's? Ao separated the two fighting siblings and put them in 'time out'. I wonder how close to something I am coming right now... I wish THO was still active on these boards and would relay some of this to Ed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 02 Aug 2017 19:05:33 |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 21:13:54
|
The only thing in your theory is that Selūne is a god, and Abeir is "no-gods land" (or at least, it was until the Spellplague changed stuff).
As for Abeir, if we go by Bruce Cordell novels, is also cthulhu-land. Is not only populated by dragons and primordials and genies, but also by beings from the Far Realm. The Abolethic Sovereignty was from Abeir before being sent to Toril in the Spellplague, for instance.
So, the true lords of Abeir are possibly Nyarlatothep and those... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 22:35:38
|
Except Selūne may not be a god, at least, not a 'deity' (they're all 'gods', even primordials). This has been argued over many times - she fits better as a primordial of 'primal light'.
And all those Lovecraftian entities fit the whole D&D thing of 'Elder gods' (Elder Evils), and Selūne definitely IS an 'elder god'. In one author's (Brian Lumley) works, he theorizes that the 'Cthulhu cycle' elder gods have a good counterpart as well, that most folks never hear of. They live in Elysia, in The Dreamlands. Sounds like another 'win' to me.
Personally, I picture Selūne as something beyond god, deity, or primordial - she'd be a Sidereal. One of 'the First' after the initial 11 dimensions (Eternals). From her and Shar (and their battle) would have sprung many of the first deities. Some of that is even canon (their battle creating the first gods).
EDIT:
Oh, BTW - Here is a chart I love to reference when I am thinking about 'godly stuff', and my over-cosmology. I've posted a link to it before, but some people said they couldn't see it. That was a long time ago, though. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 02 Aug 2017 22:39:09 |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2017 : 23:14:59
|
Well, Selūne is a Estelar* (a god from the Astral Plane), like Shar, Mystra and the other gods of Toril. Estelars are opposed to the Primordials (or Dawn Titans, the gods of the Elemental Chaos).
Is that chart from the same book that have the "Neutrinum Golem"?
*This term is from the 4e FRCG, so canon stuff. It seems that this is the true name of the race that mortals call "gods". Pretty close to your Sidereal and Celestial beings. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Aug 2017 23:16:12 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2017 : 00:10:32
|
Elenium and Tumuli, wow, I haven't read those in years lol.
Toril and Abeir are "twin planets", so they share commonalities, but of course, differ, too. If Abeir is in a pocket dimension, then I imagine the plane being on the same "level" as Toril's plane, but them being out of sync prevents more frequent collisions, but doesn't always prevent the planes from "overlapping" from time to time. I don't know much about Abeir, but this scroll seems interesting, so I'll follow.
Mod edit: Fixed the coding, so we didn't have more stray italics everywhere.  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Aug 2017 03:16:40 |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2017 : 04:41:01
|
Why just Toril and Abeir and not other worlds? Like our Earth. Or Faerie. Interacting and intersecting at set times as their dimensional presences come together.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Spectralballoons
Acolyte
Pakistan
48 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2017 : 11:46:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its an interesting mental exercise, but I don't think I'd want that to be 'canon'.
In David Eddings Elenium and Tumuli series, he had different groups have different types of magic, and although they could produce very similar effects, how they went about it was the interesting part. Take 'Invisibility', for example: One group used illusion, in a similar fashion to how the Predator used Stealth tech in the first movie: projecting an image of the background on you so you just 'blend in'. Another (fey-like) group used something akin to 'Jedi Mind Tricks' - the simply used their telepathic powers to tell the other people's brains "you don't see me", and then they could walk right on past. The last one was used by the old/evil gods (and pertains to the topic) - they moved 'in those moments between the seconds'. Basically, if you watched the second-hand on a clock, they moved in that brief moment between the 'ticks'. You can almost think of it as 'frame Rates' in gaming, or how movies use to use subliminal messages before it was made illegal (one frame would have have a picture of food, but 99.9% of the people's brain wouldn't notice it... and then they'd get hungry, because your subconscious mind DID pick it up). So unless you were something like a Quickling (or The Flash, etc), your own brain would not operate fast enough to see the things hiding 'between the frames', as it were. I recall thinking it was a very interesting concept (and considering that was actually done in the 1950's, its pretty frightening to contemplate what they may be capable of now).
Another related theory (one I thought of many years ago and dropped almost immediately) is that Abeir IS Toril at a different point in time (like Pre-Sundering, maybe). The fact that it behaves more like a plane (or demi-plane) than a planet lends some credence to this theory, but only because I think the 'First World' was just a flat plane, like all the rest. However, as I've said, there would be too many problems with it, and it remains just another 'thought exercise' for me.
The theory I am leaning toward now is that its not a planet at all - its a demiplane - very much like Ravenloft - that exists within the Ethereal plane. The fact that its not directly connected to the Astral is a very good reason why they don't have magic (because all magic comes from 'on high', or in D&D terms, from the Outer Planes).
However, that should mean elemental magic should still work, using Raw magic (Primal Energy, Incarnum, whatever you want to call it). That could be why the Primordials are there, and why they can still grant spells (through 'pact' magic). Shadow-magic may also be possible there, but the rules we have for that are so arbitrary and non-sensical I try to avoid it (like the fact you were able to use normal magical spells with the 'shadow' descriptor using Arcane {Weave} magic). Or like how the two were incompatible, and yet, supposedly Mystryl's Weave was made up of both, and the new (now old) Mythal around Evereska contained both 'halves' of magic. The whole thing falls apart, because each designer pictured it differently and followed their own rules for it. So maybe you can only use spells with the shadow-descriptor using Shadow magic in Abeir, but no-one has figured that out yet (since Shar also apparently has no access). Also, her Shadow-Weave (can we just shorten that to Shadoweave?) should not be present, since it is 'in the spaces between the weave'. Ya know, very much like those 'moments between the seconds' I mentioned above. Thus, you'd have to draw power directly from the Shadow Plane (Shadowfell), and that is probably just as hard as trying to use Raw magic (like how it use to work with positive energy and negative energy back in 1e/2e - direct contact with ether would kill a mortal).
So, at the end of the day I think Abeir is just the Ethereal version of Ravenloft (in the Shadowfell), or Faerie (in the Feywild). With those, time moves oddly in relationship to the Prime Material, and also, the 'physics' are a bit different (and sometimes randomly changing). Hmmmm... now I have to think about an astral version of a 'Domains of Dread'. Oh wait! Thats probably what all those 'Godly Domains' are!
So 'Domains' are just 'fixed points in unstable planes'. It takes some sort of powerful consciousness to hold it together, and force 'rules' onto it. Domain Lords, Gods, etc - they are just 'carving a slice out of the chaos', as it were. So who's the 'secret Lord of Abeir', I wonder?
Ed would get that, as would anyone else who read The Chronicles of Amber.
Thanks for pointing me towards an amazing author! |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 02:15:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Why just Toril and Abeir and not other worlds? Like our Earth. Or Faerie. Interacting and intersecting at set times as their dimensional presences come together.
-- George Krashos
What made me think of this concept was actually thinking about the "elven sundering" and how it did this whole "reach forward and backward through time" thing. That got me thinking about time slicing the actual links such that maybe they were actually the ones that provided the power that Ao used to twin the world (or somesuch).
I gotta admit, even though I thought up the idea this morning... not sure that I even remotely like it. Still, sometimes you just have to take something out of the box, ponder it, and then decide whether its actually useful or not. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 03:33:49
|
But the "sundering" of Abeir-Toril happened prior to the elven sundering, so they couldn't have affected it, unless you want to draw upon the idea in the previous Sundering scroll in which the "rippling" may or may not have altered events. I don't think the "ripples" changed history to the point where Abeir-Toril were "sundered" where they hadn't been before, but maybe they originally in sync, but the ripples changed the "time", so that Abeir was no longer always in sync, but could still "bump into" each other sometimes.
I kind of see it like a parallel dimsension, and sometimes the "veil" thins, much like it does with the spirit world. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 04:38:34
|
Well its been my theory for quite awhile that it was THE Sundering the Elves 'tapped into' for their own. In fact, they actually didn't have one (if you read Elaine's novel carefully) - the spell reached backwards in time, and created Evermeet in the past. In the past, as in 'during the FIRST Sundering'.
Now, she wrote that well before 4e came around, and all this nonsense about a 'twinned world', but the point still stands. In fact, its stand just fine if you toss out the magical Sundering and pretend we didn't have one, and Toril had 'continental drift' just like any real world would (Brian James had demonstrated just such a thing in his original version of the Grand history of the Realms). The Elves wanted a 'ready made' homeland that did not exist, thus they had to alter the past so there would be one for them to FIND, at that time. Now, since we know there was a Sundering that shifted everything around (even before we knew it created a second world), then that would have had to have been the moment - when everything was moving - that Evermeet would have first 'formed', so as to be ready for the elves some 13,400 years later. If you read all the vingettes and entries concerning all that in the GHotR, it actually says all of that (I just re-read all the pertinent sections - the elves created Evermeet in -31,000 ("as old as the world itself") IN -17,600 DR.
Thats why I'd don't even think I should be calling it a theory anymore, except that I think ALL 'fey magic' is based upon probabilities. They tweak the past to change the future (at least, thats what I think Elven high Magic does). Its like using a wish on the Butterfly Effect (usually with equally disastrous outcomes). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 04 Aug 2017 04:39:21 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 18:03:21
|
While it remains one of my favorites, its been a long time since Ive read Evermeet, so I dont remember some of the finer details lol. I just reread the part about the Sundering, and while I couldnt find that particular line, it says similar things in other sources, too (and I feel like it was established before 4e, anyway).
I almost feel like this belongs in the other scroll lol, but to quote that excerpt from GHotR (I want to quote so I can more accurately reference it):
But the creation of this place did not involve rending the world, as the humans imagine. Instead, our ancestors created a concentration of the Weave so powerful that a piece of fair Arvandor became part of Toril, as if had always been so. By thus altering the creation of the world, our ancestors also changed the history of the world as it had unfolded to that point. Granted, their action might not have altered history all that significantly, since they had simply created an island in the middle of an unexplored oceanan island hidden from sight by the will of the Seldarine. But change history they did, and the true extent of that change is forever lost to those who followed them into this world.
[
]
In this case, I submit that the consequences were both far-reaching and subtle. By invoking the EverSakkatien to concentrate the Weave in a single location, our ancestors might inadvertently have lessened the strength of the Weave elsewhere in this world, producing consequences that continue to haunt us today.
Since geographical evidence points to Evermeet being as old as the world itself, but to make it thus, it had to be created in a ritual that would alter history to that point, so that it would be there
the high magic ritual both created Evermeet in that moment in time and in the past, which could further explain those ripples we talked about in the other scroll. This may or may not have affected the Tearfall. The high elven ritual had to affect geographical history enough that there would be an island, but the sundering of Abeir-Toril could have still happened. As the excerpt points out, the ritual may or may not have altered history all that significantly, since Evermeet was created in a hitherto unexplored area, but it could have changed the geographical effects of the Tearfall and other continental events, if not the Tearfall itself, because there would be an island where there hadnt been the first time around, so to speak. I dont think it altered the past to the point where events that hadnt happened before suddenly did, but it likely did alter things geographically, which of course have their own effects on the world.
|
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 19:40:52
|
There is a line in there that I always have trouble finding (because its obviously NOT located where we would think it should be, where the main body of text concerning the Sundering is) that says something along the lines of, "entire civilizations were erased, as if they never existed".
To me, that sounds a lot more like a change in the time stream than a simple cataclysm. In fact, that exact same turn of phrase is used in a 2(3?)-part episode of Star Trek: Voyager. I wasn't a big fan of that particular ST series, but I really loved that storyline with 'Chronotons' (Year of Hell). Basically, a species (the Krenim) created Chronoton-based weapon that could simply 'erase' their enemies from time (make it so that they never evolved in the first place). The whole problem with using time to fix your problems is that you windup changing your own timeline as well - the Krenim accidentally erased their own civilization (something about another race they erased was necessary to their own civilization). Every time I think of Elves casting one of their 'High Magic Rituals', I picture the Krenim firing their weapon and altering history... AGAIN (it was pretty damn cool - even the uniforms of the people on the ships kept changing).
What greater atrocity could there be than not only wiping a species out, but making it so that it never existed at all? And people wonder why I don't like the Elves. "History is written by the Winners" - just ask the Drow.
Anyhow, long before 4e reared its ugly head, I had a theory that there were two timelines - one before the elves cast that ritual, and one after. Which meant in a weird way I had imagined 'two Torils' before anyone ever thought of Abeir. One would have been the 'timeline that was erased', so there would have been a period of time between two points where the timeline branched. Two sets of history for the same world.
So now, looking at all that (its got to be almost 15 years now), I am thinking that maybe Ao 'saved' some of the stuff that would have been wiped-out (erased) by placing it on Abeir. Maybe dragonborn were very common in the first timeline... who knows? Maybe Dragons were meant to rule the world, and whatever the nasty elvses did brought them into conflict with the Giants (and ya know, come to think of it, that would help us fudge a LOT of the weirdness with the Giant/Dragon war, Ostoria, and the timeline).* Abeir is where he stores his 'might have beens'.
Just another theory I have kicking around. Since I think ALL (D&D) worlds are really just poor reflections of the First World, I suppose each could be thought of as an 'alternate reality' for every other. When the primary reality no longer exists, who can tell which ones are closest to 'the Truth'?
*I have to run out now, but this got my wheels turning again - something about the dragons having not supposed to have been on Toril, until something changed. Could the elves have triggered the 'eggfall' of the dragons all those millennia ago? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 04 Aug 2017 19:43:57 |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 19:44:39
|
Well, if we go by the novels of Bruce Cordell, time in the old Abeir-Toril was meaningless, to begin with (with the Far Realm literally bleeding in the material world and stuff).
So, maybe the change was less significant than we originally thought in the other scroll. Still, as the elvish guy said it, "but change history they did". So, in some way or another, they did changed something. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Aug 2017 19:45:31 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 20:58:05
|
^This is why I think there were some geographical changes made. This could then have affected how the Tearfall further changed the face of Toril (and Abeir), because it had already been altered. I don't think it affected what Ao did with Abeir, because that would imply the ritual had power over Ao.
One could argue that the destruction could have been even worse had not the Seldarine intervened. Magical or not, the elves are mortal, and that much power can easily get out of control. In rereading the sundering scene in Evermeet, I came across the part where Starleaf is speaking with Corellon and Angarradh. I got the impression the Seldarine were both approving and disapproving of what happened. As Angharradh said, "there are things the gods cannot prevent, for to do so would be to take all choice from the hands of their mortal children. Yet this time, we did what we could." On the next page, in response to Starleaf claiming they succeeded, she says, "Do not be so certain. When you go from this tower, you will quickly see what I mean. Have you any concept of how many of the People lie dead? How utterly changed is the world? It is true that Evermeet is in part the result of the magic you and yours tore from the Weave of Life. But that alone would not have availed--too much of the power of the casting was drawn off by the destruction that resulted." (pg 161-2). She ends by saying what happened was destined.
Like it was being debated in the other scroll, if the "ripples" altered history that drastically, it would mean that the history outlined in GHotR up to the creation of Evermeet didn't originally happen, and I really don't think that's the case. I'm not saying there weren't changes, but I don't think it was to the level of completely rewriting the history books. That would suggest a level of power that would put them on par with Ao. I don't think even the Seldarine are that powerful.
I am one of the few people here who likes elves lol. Oh well XD
|
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 21:07:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So now, looking at all that (its got to be almost 15 years now), I am thinking that maybe Ao 'saved' some of the stuff that would have been wiped-out (erased) by placing it on Abeir. Maybe dragonborn were very common in the first timeline... who knows? Maybe Dragons were meant to rule the world, and whatever the nasty elvses did brought them into conflict with the Giants (and ya know, come to think of it, that would help us fudge a LOT of the weirdness with the Giant/Dragon war, Ostoria, and the timeline).* Abeir is where he stores his 'might have beens'.
*I have to run out now, but this got my wheels turning again - something about the dragons having not supposed to have been on Toril, until something changed. Could the elves have triggered the 'eggfall' of the dragons all those millennia ago?
You know? I always have wondered why dragons seem to be a "younger race" in Toril, compared to other races I mean. In other settings, dragons seem to predate races such as elves and humans, while in FR, humanity was already creating civilizations (albeit primitive) when the first dragons came.
Heck, if we go by Eberron, dragons have millions of years of history (most of them expend in the Dragon-Demon Wars) compared with... what, 30000 years of draconic history on Toril?
Dunno how old dragons are in other settings, but at least in Eberron and Nentir Vale, the draconic race are millions of years old... So, yeah. Your theory about dragons not originally meant to exist on Toril makes sense.
As for Abeir being the "what if the elves never messed with the timeline" world, makes kinda sense, as well. To begin with, all the Far Realms entities (that, if we go by BRC novels, were the original inhabitants of Abeir-Toril) got their share of land in Abeir, while only a few remained as scattered pockets in Toril... that means that the fall of the Cthulhu-realms on Toril is one of the potential changes in the timeline brought by the elves. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 21:18:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
^This is why I think there were some geographical changes made. This could then have affected how the Tearfall further changed the face of Toril (and Abeir), because it had already been altered. I don't think it affected what Ao did with Abeir, because that would imply the ritual had power over Ao.
This is very consistent with what Chris Perkins and Matt Sernet said in the podcast about the Second Sundering. They said that the ancient landmasses that have been mapped on the Grand History of the Realms were "not different in a Pangea way", and were instead split by the Original Sundering (and this kinda makes sense, seeing that there is no equivalent landmass in Toril to Laerakond's shape).
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Like it was being debated in the other scroll, if the "ripples" altered history that drastically, it would mean that the history outlined in GHotR up to the creation of Evermeet didn't originally happen, and I really don't think that's the case. I'm not saying there weren't changes, but I don't think it was to the level of completely rewriting the history books. That would suggest a level of power that would put them on par with Ao. I don't think even the Seldarine are that powerful.
As I said in the other scrolls, I believe the changes were really minor, in fact. Maybe something that made the dragons lost their predominance on Toril (that, as we can see, they did preserved on Abeir, so maybe this is one of the changes the elves made: changed draconic history on Toril), and other minor stuff.
Minor changes that didn't shaped the rest of history in meaningful ways, yet changed something enough for someone from the older timeline to be able to recognize such changes if s/he saw them. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 21:27:02
|
Exactly, and likely geographical "history", as I said earlier, because that would allow for the shaping of Evermeet, but I don't think it erased history and then subsequently rewrote it. Erased some civilizations, yes, but not history itself.
As for the dragons...well, they still came before the elves, if only by a few thousand years, so I don't think the elves changed whether or not they should have been in Faerun. They could have changed it in other ways, but the dragons and giants were at war before the elves migrated from Faerie, so I don't think the ritual affected dragon's arrival on Toril. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 21:50:07
|
| Now that I think about it, you're right. There were fey before dragons, but not the elven kind. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Aug 2017 21:58:31 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2017 : 04:38:28
|
The first Elves - SYLVAN (Green) Elves, NOT 'High' (Gold & Silver) Elves - were actually SENT to Toril 'to combat the dragons' by the Fey, as per the GHotR.
To me, that sounds suspiciously like "righting a grievous wrong". Te Elves/Fey did something (probably a High Magic Ritual), and somehow 'dragons were loosed upon the world'. There was a fall of dragon-eggs from the sky at some point, and Toril had no dragons before that (AFAIK).
So we got us a First world, where immortals lived (even the Creator Races, because 'death' had not yet come into the world). I get the whole 'time was meaningless' thing, because if everyone had "all the time in the world", then it would be meaningless. Some sort of ruckus breaks-out (I got theories that is what a Giant/dragon/Dwarf thing... at first), which escalated into everyone taking sides, the Godswar (Dawn war), and finally the Sundering (Shattering) of the first 'World' (actually, just an infinite flat plane - The original Prime Material plane). The Creatori are threatened with doom, but somehow some of the Gods/powers intervene and save them long enough for some of them to try again on a new world (probably several new worlds - I think humanity became the most widespread). I'm thinking most of the Sauroids (note I DID NOT say 'Sarrukh') - at least 'the innocents' - went to Abeir (the Saurials). Those guilty of 'tampering with Fate' (whatever the heck that means) were 'sentenced' to live out the remainder of their lives as mere shadows of themselves, still immortal (unlike any offspring had after the Sundering), but now being affected by TIME (perhaps the first liches? As their physical bodies started to rot and crumble around them?)
Most of the surviving Batrachi fled into Limbo, and their decendents can still be seen in the Slaad (along with dozens of 'created', lesser races they left behind). The Aeree actually tried to make a go of it, but things were too different - too hostile - an they also died-out (as far as we know, and they, like the rest, have 'created' still around).
But the Fey fled into the Feywild, taking their homeland (Faerie) with them. I think they fared the best (aside from humanity, who had spread out and multiplied so much that they increased their chances), because they left before the Sundering. I believe it says so right in the GHotR. Now, if it wasn't something the Elves did (the creation of Evermeet... which was also the destruction of Tintageer in Faerie), then it must have been something the Fey did that somehow 'released the dragons', because apparently they were feeling guilty about something. Maybe it was more of that 'Monkeys Paw' type of wish magic they love so much - they managed to remove their realm to the Feywild, and they must have displaced something. What if 'swap magic' (used in the Saurials novels) was the only way to move back & forth between worlds back then? Just as Evermeet must have been an 'even swap' for the loss of Tintageer, maybe they 'stole' a giant kingdom from the Feywild (which was probably the Giantwylds, or some-such) - the original Ostoria was then moved from the feywild (where Annam 'held court'). The arrival of the giants somehow would have triggered the dragon-eggs still in space to rain-down upon Faerūn (could it have been some sort of 'doomsday weapon'?)
Thus, the giants and the dragons both showed up on Toril, and renewed their age old conflict (which started the Dawn War... but no-one even remembers that), and the dragons eventually pushed the giants into retreat (I'm thinking someone {White Dragons?} gave that Ice-Necklace artifact to Ulutiu). And for a time - with the giants barely able to hold their own against the encroaching glacier, the dragons were free to enslave the mortal races of Toril (mostly Elves and humans back then). Many of the Sylvan Elves would have taken to the deep forests, and used 'guerilla tactics' trying to break the dragons stranglehold on Faerūn, and some used a process to changed into Winged versions (Avariel) to help with this endeavor (and here I am thinking the last of the Aeree were involved with that part). Eventually the elves created the king-killer star (Mythal) and broke the dragon's grip on them.
I just need to figure out why the dragon eggs were in orbit (I've been trying to figure that out for years), and what the precise conditions were that caused them to 'rain down'. The draconic myths might have something - they claim the 'eggs' were really droplets of blood from the celestial dragons who fought. What if the story of Fafnir is really an allegory of 'the All-Father' fighting against a celestial dragon after he arrived? What if it was really 'the god of dragons' vs the 'god of giants' in those draconic myths? (and seriously, at those levels of power, physical forms are meaningless - the only real distinction between the two may have been 'previous affiliations' (sides in the Dawn War). So Annam spills the blood of the (cosmic) dragon, and it rains down on Toril, turning into dragon eggs. He then has sons with a local goddess (Othea), and creates his kingdom anew in Faerūn - Ostoria (to replace lost Jotunheim in the Feywild).
And the rest is history. Works for me. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 05 Aug 2017 04:51:19 |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2017 : 05:39:20
|
Weren't the dragon eggs part of the moon Asgorath/Io throw to Toril?
As for dragon eggs in orbit... that seems very likely to Siberys' blood... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Aug 2017 05:41:34 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2017 : 17:14:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The first Elves - SYLVAN (Green) Elves, NOT 'High' (Gold & Silver) Elves - were actually SENT to Toril 'to combat the dragons' by the Fey, as per the GHotR.
The GHotR said in -27000 DR, "continuing their work to undermine dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril". There is a dragon war going on at this point, and what I take from this quote is, either the fey felt suppressed under the dragons, or they wanted carve out their own civilization, which they couldn't do while dragons dominated.
quote:
But the Fey fled into the Feywild, taking their homeland (Faerie) with them. I think they fared the best (aside from humanity, who had spread out and multiplied so much that they increased their chances), because they left before the Sundering. I believe it says so right in the GHotR. Now, if it wasn't something the Elves did (the creation of Evermeet... which was also the destruction of Tintageer in Faerie), then it must have been something the Fey did that somehow 'released the dragons', because apparently they were feeling guilty about something.
According to the GHotR and Evermeet (I remember that much lol), the destruction of Tintageer happened before the elven sundering. Tintageer was destroyed in -25400 DR, and the elven sundering happened in -17600 DR. Ubless, of course, this was one of the "ripples", and thus one of the "changes in history" that heralded the coming of Evermeet, but I don't know if I believe that, as I think it was mainly geographical changes, and Tintageer was in Faerie.
|
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2017 : 17:39:38
|
The blood began to spill onto the young world, and something 'froze' it into a nice, neat little ball?
Then something else destroyed it (Asgorath/Io), and the 'frozen' blood was released? That could be a way of meshing the myths together... especially if we say the moon 'Zotha' was really a piece of Siberys.
After posting that last night, I was thinking more on how to connect it all - Essylliss was the aspect of the World Serpent assigned to Toril (maybe all of Realmspace). The world serpent was 'fractured', just as the (First) world was 'Sundered'. Syberys could just be the Eberron version of Essylliss, and the 'blood' is their physical essence in the world (in Toril, it took the form of the Ice Moon Zotha).
Connecting it to what I said above, somehow the Fey felt responsible for that blood 'raining down' on Toril. The elves also have another myth of 'people created from the blood of a god' - the ELVES from Corellon. Hmmmmm... there is something here but I can't quite put my finger on it. A duality, similar to the Bahamut/Tiamat thing, or the Selūne/Shar thing (same story, happening over and over, on the myriad 'reflections' {Crystal Spheres} of the First World?)
Does Gruumsh somehow represent 'primal rage'? Somehow I have to figure-out how to connect 'the blood of the good god' vs 'the blood of the evil god'. The progeny of that 'good blood' was sent (by the Fey) to counteract the offspring of the 'bad blood' (the dragons).
Don't elves have some sort of deep connection to dragons? Aside from riding them, can't some of them turn into dragons? Could THAT be where the good (metallic) dragons have originated? I have always tried to say that the dragons came from the dwarves (because of Norse mythology), but maybe for D&D/FR that isn't the best possible solution. I could always go with the Linnorms being dwarves. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 05 Aug 2017 17:40:29 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2017 : 17:42:52
|
| Well, IIRC, when dragons take human form (those who do), at least some of them look elven. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 03:54:45
|
There are at least two cases where 'distraught' Elven women turned into dragons in FR canon - the Purple Dragon (in Cormyr, not the one in the Raurin), and that musically inclined one (although she wasn't a Song Dragon, strangely) from Elaine Cunningham's Harper novel (can't think of the title).
Wasn't Tiamat on the side of the Orcs during the Orcgate war? Or was she just an 'opportunist'? (although Gruumsh = Tiamat is one crazy-asz theory, even for me LOL)
Dragon blood spills upon the world, creating the first (winged) dragons on Toril. Corellon fights with Gruumsh, and his blood creates the Elves (presumably, everywhere, but I'm thinking that had to have happened in the Feywild). Those same elves - the 'Children of the Fey' (because I think the Seldarine are really Archfey - ascended LaShey) are sent by the Fey (and worship those same 'Fey Powers') to handle the 'dragon problem', before even the beginning events of the Evermeet: Island of Elves novel, on Toril. They were there before the 'High' Elves arrived. And NEVER worshiped the Seldarine (who may have 'ascended' after their departure from the Feywild).
So something 'born from the blood of gods' was sent to combat 'something born from the blood of gods', and we have PLENTY of evidence of lots of stuff falling to Toril over the years, including some monstrously HUGE things (Primordials? Pieces of Primordials?), and we have this whole, 'good vs evil' in every story, this 'Light vs darkness'. And at the same time, there is always a reptilian component - something snakey or draconic - that is killed/'thrown to Earth', and shattered/fractured/sundered. Its the SAME STORY, told by different races through the filter of their own (pre)conceptions. There is something THERE... I just can't put my finger on it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 04:25:25
|
While I disagree about the Seldarine originally being Archfey (I think they are immigrant deities), I agree that the elves created from Corellon's blood were likely in Faerie/Feywild, and not Faerun, especially whwn you consider Tintageer. And, yes, the first elves to migrate to Toril were green elves, and they worshiped the gods of Faerie.
Araunshnee's banishment (and I am pointing this out only for the sake of the timeline) happened in -30000 DR (or around that time), before even the green elves migrated to Toril. Then, in -25400, following the devastation of Tintageer, the gold elves follow suit. So, the Seldarine were already active by this point, so to speak, but they migrated to Toril, eventually becoming the dominant elven pantheon. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 05:08:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Wasn't Tiamat on the side of the Orcs during the Orcgate war? Or was she just an 'opportunist'? (although Gruumsh = Tiamat is one crazy-asz theory, even for me LOL)
She was just opportunistic, as per Dragons of Faerūn, at least.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Corellon fights with Gruumsh, and his blood creates the Elves (presumably, everywhere, but I'm thinking that had to have happened in the Feywild).
Dragon #408 has an excellent narrative of this battle (and since the narrator is a vistani, the tale is not limited by setting). According to this article, the battle happened in both worlds, the material world and the Feywild.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
While I disagree about the Seldarine originally being Archfey (I think they are immigrant deities), I agree that the elves created from Corellon's blood were likely in Faerie/Feywild, and not Faerun, especially whwn you consider Tintageer. And, yes, the first elves to migrate to Toril were green elves, and they worshiped the gods of Faerie.
Araunshnee's banishment (and I am pointing this out only for the sake of the timeline) happened in -30000 DR (or around that time), before even the green elves migrated to Toril. Then, in -25400, following the devastation of Tintageer, the gold elves follow suit. So, the Seldarine were already active by this point, so to speak, but they migrated to Toril, eventually becoming the dominant elven pantheon.
If we go by 4e lore, the Seldarine already existed (at least with a few of its members) before the Dawn War, as some of them (besides Corellon and Sehanine) also fought against the Primordials.
I guess some of this is also mentioned in that article in Dragon #408.
There is however, has some contradictions, as Lolth's fall happens amid the Dawn War in 4e lore (though she remained ally with the other gods until the end of the war). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 06 Aug 2017 05:10:40 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 06:10:11
|
| That's why I think the Seldarine have always existed as deities, and have been around a very long time, just not necessarily "native" to Faerun. If I remember correctly, Demihuman Deities described them as immigrant deities. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
What if the Abeir / Toril "out of synch" is TIME
