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Markustay
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  19:27:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I can't say I like the idea of a newborn deity... Why wouldn't a deity be born mature? They skip out on other aspects of mortal existence, so I don't see a reason for a deity to need to grow up. (And the thought of divine Terrible Twos is a scary one indeed!)

I can dig a newly ascended deity, perhaps a former mortal, growing into their place in the pantheon and the cosmos. But a baby divinity? That idea does not work for me.

(And yes, I realize the real-world implications of that statement. I prefer to leave that angle alone)

Well, my thoughts there was that that how they replaced those 'Greater Manifestations' in the Old Empires. the 'god spirit' would enter a newborn and become the next incarnation.

But maybe I have that wrong - the Old Empires lore is definitely a place I fall short on.

Maybe 'Divine babies' just grow REALLY fast (that's a trope - I think the last time I saw it used was in the Stargate series).....

Imaskari!


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2017 19:31:21
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  19:29:04  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Every big creature i use is unique. It may be called a vampire, but that is only because it drinks blood. I dislike stock creatures for anything other than goblinoid and orcs and even then if it has a name it will be special.

This "vampire" drains life somehow. It is bound to the island somehow but there the similarity ends.

Its method of creation is unique, certainly not created by another vampire biting him. I reckon he did something with his magics to enhance himself and it went wrong (works on quelzarms but not so well on humans).


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Markustay
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  19:33:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if you go with my train-of-thought of him being a Lilitu, that gives him a Lolth connection (possibly), and maybe you can even make him a drow (although I think that might actually TAKE from his flavor). Possibly a Crinti?

Baby-eating dark elves... Now THAT's old-school.

Okay, while looking for those demonic(?) vampires*, I found this -
quote:
Vlad Tolenkov - A sometimes consort to and advisor of Lolth, he resides in a Nightmare World trapped in the Demonweb Pits.


So Lolth does associate closely with vamps, it seems. I love it when I find lore that compliments some of my musings!


*Found it - Blood Fiends! What if a Blood fiend bit a Godling? If they can turn fiends, they may be able to turn folks with Divine Bloodlines. What if Ulgar is an incarnation that got turned? That would easily explain his 'undying' status.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2017 19:44:57
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sleyvas
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  19:50:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, but England didn't have a vampire problem until after they built that damn tunnel.

But seriously, I actually can't see a vampire charming a human and then ordering them to take them across the water. Its like a phobia to them. That would be like someone with a fear of heights telling his friends to force him to go skydiving. What I CAN see happening is the vampire getting a minion, and it making its desires known (in a round-about way), and then the minion acts on its own (taking the coffin aboard a ship during the day). The vampire(ss) in RLB's Undead trilogy trembled when she looked at open water - the text explicitly said she had to 'fight with all her will not to go running screaming in the opposite direction', and she was VERY powerful. Its not something that's easy to override (although she managed, so I suppose Ulgar could as well).

And getting back to the original topic - I'd prefer to make him a bit different than a standard vampire anyway. Whereas 'the West' has its liches and vampires', the 'East' (and I would lump the Old Empires into that) should have mummies and... something else.

For example, from Wikipedia -
quote:
Mesopotamia
Many cultures in ancient Mesopotamia had stories involving blood-drinking demons. The Persians were one of the first civilizations thought to have tales of such monsters; creatures attempting to drink blood from men are depicted on excavated pottery shards. Ancient Babylonia had tales of the mythical Lilitu, synonymous with and giving rise to Lilith and her daughters the Lilu from Hebrew demonology. Lilith was considered a demon and was often depicted as subsisting on the blood of babies. The legend of Lilith was originally included in some traditional Jewish texts: according to the medieval folk traditions, she was considered to be Adam's first wife before Eve. In these texts, Lilith left Adam to become the queen of the demons (she actually refused to be Adam's subordinate and thus was banished from Eden by God himself) and, much like the Greek striges, would prey on young babies and their mothers at night, as well as males. Because Hebrew law absolutely forbade the eating of human flesh or the drinking of any type of blood, Lilith's blood drinking was described as exceptionally evil. To ward off attacks from Lilith, parents used to hang amulets around their child's cradle.

So perhaps Ulgar is one of these more demonic-looking vamps, like the ones from Buffy (we could probably just use Nosferatu). An 'eater of babies'. I still like the idea that he drank a godling (either a dying one during a war, or a newborn... the newborn is MUCH creepier). And that's why he is now 'undying' (practically unkillable), and they had to go through extreme measures to get rid of him. I'm thinking if they stake him, he'd just turn into mist and reappear elsewhere, and if he was tied down in sunlight he'd just respawn from his ashes as soon as the sun went down. Something like that. Come to think of it, its almost like he has the powers of a Chosen (from my take, no anything canon, of which there is so little).

EDIT:
I kept reading, and interestingly, vampires in Mesopotamian myth are associated with Lamashtu, who is in Pathfinder and called "The Mother of Monsters". She also has affiliations with Pazuzu (so she SHOULD be D&D canon as well, because of her RW mythos). She is associated with Lilith, who I associate with Lolth. Lamashtu seems more like a primal version of Tiamat to me, tbut that could screw a lot of things up (maybe, maybe not - I don't want to start discussing Cosmological cross-pollinations again!). However, I've also spun a rivalry between Tiamat in Lolth in my D&D, and I have to wonder if it isn't possible that Araushnnee didn't learn from/serve tiamat for atime after she was cast-out of the Seldarine, and then she did in the Abyss what Tiamat did in the Hells - become a 'fiend lord' by association (in other words, her time as a 'Demon Queen' was something she learned from Tiamat, as a way to rebuild he power-base). Tiamamt may have betrayed by all that, so she would take on both a 'mentor' role, and a hated rival, for Lolth (which would shoe-horn nicely with the associations between Lilith and Lamashtu).

Of further interest is that Pazuzu was invoked (by Sumerians) to protect women and their babies from Lilitu ('Lilith's daughters'). Invoking one Deon Lord (an Obyrith) to counter another... interesting. I'm glad they made him an Obyrith - it makes more sense that way (his motives are 'mysterious', and he desn't always behave in a manner expected of a demon).

And I did it anyway... i need to stop thinking about Gods!!!



Lamashtu is called out as a separate entity in D&D canon in Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss

When talking about Pazuzu on page 77

The one demon lord that could be counted as his enemy is wretched and deformed Lamashtu, although the Queen of Monstrous Births has been imprisoned by Pazuzu on Torremor for countless ages, so she is hardly a threat to the demon prince.

She's also in a list on page 155 of Lords of the Abyss
Lamashtu (f)
Title: She Who Erases
Concerns: Monstrous birth, deformity
Layer of the Abyss: 503: Torremor

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  20:09:03  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well given my rabid god hating fanaticism im not about to link ulgar to lolth or any other deity, but thats just me.

It seems to me that Ulgar used some kind of concentrated negative energy as part of a ritual that turned him into what he is now. I have my own thoughts on what that may be but i like to leave it vague for others to do as they wish.

His power and him being stuck on a faraway island makes it very difficult for him to have gotten there so im certain at least one godking of akanu was killed in the process (i have one in mind but will again leave it vague. The death of the godking in all likelihood made him even more powerful and probably of demigod power level (i dont equate demigods to actual gods, just a protostage).

Its almost certain he is bound to the island. He can create zombies and is able to build something to keep 50 vampires imprisoned. He must be a powerful mage as well as a vampire so if he could leave he would have. I like to link things in unanticipated ways so im thinking that like a vampire needs to be near the soil of his homeland, ulgar is bound to the blood of the godking which he spilled on the island and now cannot leave that island. Something like and old magic born out of sacrifice - harry potter esque or narnia like deep magic.


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sleyvas
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  20:13:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

In fact if anyone comes across any stray mention of chessenta in a sourcebook or web article (or even a novel) then please post it here

Pirates of the Fallen Stars, pg.68

quote:
Ulgar Isle
Ulgar Isle, of all the islands in the Pirate Isles, is truly haunted. The undead rule this island, led by an ancient vampire from the empire of Chessenta: Ulgar.
Ulgar the Undying was made vampire during the height of the Chessentan Empire nearly 2,000 years ago. After preying upon that empire for over two centuries, he was trapped. Although he could not be destroyed (at least as far as the Chessentans knew), they shipped him to this island in the middle of the Sea of Fallen Stars, there to live out eternity.
Ulgar remained undisturbed, trapped within a sealed coffin for nearly two millennia. Then, during Immurk's time, a band of pirates who were searching for a new lair came across Ulgar's coffin and opened it. Starving for blood, he drained them all dry before his thirst was sated. He then went out to the ship, but found that he did not have the knowledge of modern sailing craft, and so was still marooned.
Other vessels visited the island, each falling under Ulgar's trap, until finally one of the ships managed to flee with someone still alive to tell of what occurred. The island was declared uninhabitable, and all on the Inner Sea were warned to avoid it.
Like many such items, however, there are always those who would tempt fate. Supposedly, Ulgar possesses secret magics known only to the Chessentan Empire which are otherwise unavailable. Several expeditions to gather Ulgar's secrets have landed on the island; most have failed.
Ulgar now has over fifty vampire servants. Most of them are sealed in coffins of Ulgar's making, waiting for victims to feed upon, as even a vampire of Ulgar's age cannot control fifty starving vampires. Those who did not become vampires have been raised as zombie servants, and these patrol the island, bringing all intruders to Ulgar so that he may feed.





That is a very interesting find. Given the name, I am so inclined to tie him to Ulgarth... and have it be that the story of him being turned 2 thousand years ago was a misunderstanding. It would be a simple spin to say that he was "revealed" 2 thousand years ago.... say a thousand years after he helped found Chessenta as an Untheric province in -1771 DR.... when he was released the last time the "Gates of Iron" in Ulgarth opened... and also right around the time that an Ulgarian Prince, Surtava, for some reason gave up everything to become a beggar and seek enlightenment and form the Padhran religion.

Like you I'm inclined to have him be something other than a standard vampire... having him be something that maybe even fed upon the power of a demoness like Lamashtu... or maybe he raped the manifestation of Ereshkigal or fed upon her milk or drank her blood... maybe he was attempting to become a divine being, and he failed.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  20:44:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So Lamashtu IS in D&D - I hadn't noticed that. I only know her from Pathfinder. I still like her as a feral/primal aspect of Tiamat, though. Maybe thats how she escaped imprisonment by Pazuzu - she managed to break-off that part of her he was keeping imprisoned (the 'eater of babies'). And it could also be why she fled to the Nine Hells all those years ago - she was seeking asylum (because there aren't too many beings in the universe that would give Pazuzu pause, and Asmodeus is one of them). AND it would also help explain her sudden depowering to just a 'devil's lapdog' (or so it would appear, for a time) - she lost a tremendous amount of her divine energy when she split herself. She had to 'lick her wounds' and follow Asmodeus' orders for a couple thousand years until she could (in secret) slowly rebuild her own divine power base, away from her original draconic followers (where Asmodeus would notice). She would have done this through proxies, which AGAIN help explain some of the weirdness that went on in Chessenta. And NOW she has her own realm and faith once again.

All that from an offhand, throw-away mention of a vampire on an island. MAN, I LOVE the Realms!

@Sleyvas - thats an interesting thing to play around with - I have to give it some more thought. If anyone would have controlled Ulgaria back then, it should have been Mulhorand, but I suppose Unther (wich also spawned chessenta) may have wrapped around the bottom of Mulhorand for a short time. On the other hand, picturing a pack of 'Ancient Dead' (mummies) going into Ulgaria (Ulgarth) and cashing the Vampire Lord out is kinda cool - use undead to fight undead... what could be better?

We could even push him all the way back to Imaskar (have him be yet-another necro-related artificer), but I'd rather avoid that. Not everything has to relate back to Imaskar, or Netheril, or Shar/Shadows for that matter. However, what if he dated from its fall? He may have been a Mulan that was 'filled with the Holy Spirit' (Manifestation/Incarnation), that 'went bad' and fled down to Ulgaria. Maybe he and another Godling were mortally wounded, and to save himself, he 'ate' some of the other one... which the others would consider an abomination. They wouldn't have had the time or resources to go after him during the war/revolution, but afterward... it may have taken some time for them to find him again.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2017 20:56:09
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  20:48:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pretty sure Lamashtu was just cited as an example, there -- so far as I know, she and all the deities of Pathfinder were created for that setting (save for the Cthulhu imports, of course).

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Markustay
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  21:03:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, she is definitely a RW Mesopotamian god, which is why I hadn't realized she had a presence in D&D; like you, I had just assumed she was created whole-cloth for Golarion, and never bothered to dig deeper. Odd that they had one that was RW, when they avoided that everywhere else (she DOES have a bit of a 'Lovecraftian' feel, and she's been associated with Mother Hydra from THAT mythos, so it makes some sense in that light).

I wouldn't even know about any of these beings if I hadn't become enthralled with the Dagon and Mother Hydra in the hallway outside the Candlekeep meet-up at Gencon2012. They were from the room next door, and while I was waiting for the meet-up to start, they pulled me into the room. Man, do those tentacle-heads know how to party! I wound up late to the CK meet-up because of it.

(In my defense, the 'sacrifice' they were offering to the Gods was a very cute young lady wearing nothing but a few pieces of strategically-placed electrical tape as a costume. Now, being in the construction industry, I was fascinated by this new usage for said tape.....)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2017 21:04:27
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sleyvas
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  21:46:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Pretty sure Lamashtu was just cited as an example, there -- so far as I know, she and all the deities of Pathfinder were created for that setting (save for the Cthulhu imports, of course).



Nope, Lamashtu and Pazuzu are both real world. In fact, the mention of Lamashtu in Hordes of the Abyss predates Pathfinder. Granted, they don't say very much about her. In OUR world, she's actually noted as a daughter of Anu (in the realms known as Enlil). This definitely makes her fit the area. She actually gets more mention in a dragon article on Pazuzu. Ironically, that same issue of dragon #329 has information on the Mesopotamian mythos, which possibly hits around a lot of what we've been discussing, so I'm rereading it. Having something wherein Pazuzu corrupts a daughter of an Untheric god and then entraps her in the abyss could be interesting.


Lamashtu[edit]
Lamashtu is the demon queen of monstrous births. She is described as a wretched and deformed hag, well known for her bottomless hunger for the bones of pregnant mothers and newborn babes. Pazuzu is Lamashtu's most notable enemy. She was once his consort, but she betrayed him by abusing her knowledge of his true name. In retribution, Pazuzu put out her eyes and banished her to the Abyssal layer of Torremor, in the sprawling construction known as Onstrakker's Nest.

Lamashtu was first mentioned in the article "Demonomicon of Iggwilv: Pazuzu" in Dragon #329 (March 2005), by James Jacobs.[32] Lamashtu received further details in third edition in Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss (2006). She received further description in the fourth edition book Demonomicon (2010).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 25 Nov 2017 23:56:11
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Markustay
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Posted - 26 Nov 2017 :  00:07:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If we go with some of what I postulated above (and I know I will - I have to tweak my Over-cosmology just a little bit more), then its fairly simple to say that Lamashtu (the primal vestige of Tiamat that she broke away from) is still trapped, and that anyone who still worships her (ie., the PF setting) is actually getting their prayers answered by Tiamat, Thus, 'Lamshtu' is an alias of Tiamat, even though she is now separate from it.

I am thinking that the way he bound her was through her divinity, and thus, by separating herself from that part of herself (the Divine), she left behind both her 'reptilian brain' (her Id, which resides in the Body, in my Body, Mind, & Soul theories) and the physical body that held it. Her spirit and soul (Mind & Soul) were able to escape the Abyss and flee to Baator. This is why she is now forced to possess the bodies of others - she had to give up her own true form.

At least, thats how I'm spinning it from now on. I'm thinking perhaps she got help from pale Night, who is another obyrith, and may be working at odds to Pazuzu (and I have her connected to the Drow as well). Maybe Pale Night hid her daughter Araushnee (another of my theories) in Tiamat's realm when the Seldarine were after her, because Tiamat owed her a favor. Of course, that would mean Lolth spent some time in hell, as well, before going to the Abyss and carving out her own domain.

But wait... I am just now reading (D&D) Asmodeus' Wikipedia entry and it seems Pazuzu and he have formal relations, and he helped establish Asmodeus! Asmodeus even owes him a HUGE favor for that, which he is yet to collect on. Hmmmmmm... that insanely interesting. I was only looking at the entry to try and find another way to link pre-Lolth Araushnee to the Hells, and I a thinking maybe she was Bensozia (in other words, the 'Queen of Hell' didn't really die, that was just a cover story when she took-off and became Lolth). Gods (and fiends) lie all the time, especially when they don't want mortals to see that they are fallible. I'm not so sure about that part, though. Still moving the pieces around. Also, I found that Zargon (Elder Evils) was the original ruler of Hell, and some older lore says that Asmodeus usurped Beelzebul, who overthrew Satan. This means Zargon came before Satan, even though he is not listed in that 'order of Devil-Kings'.

So maybe Zargon wasn't a devil at all. Maybe he wasn't an obyrith either (although he could still have been). What if Zargon is the name of the nameless god? "He who was"? But He Who Was didn't die - he was corrupted by the Shard of Evil at the heart of Baator, and was locked away in his madness. the other gods just lie about it because they are ashamed about what happened.
quote:
Despised by the baatezu, feared by the gods, and all but forgotten by mortals, Zargon the Returner struggles to escape his prison to once more conquer the earth and drown the world with rivers of his slime.
Accent, mine. it fits, no?

The human creator-god went mad. Sounds about right.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Nov 2017 00:10:58
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sleyvas
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Posted - 26 Nov 2017 :  00:14:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I can't say I like the idea of a newborn deity... Why wouldn't a deity be born mature? They skip out on other aspects of mortal existence, so I don't see a reason for a deity to need to grow up. (And the thought of divine Terrible Twos is a scary one indeed!)

I can dig a newly ascended deity, perhaps a former mortal, growing into their place in the pantheon and the cosmos. But a baby divinity? That idea does not work for me.

(And yes, I realize the real-world implications of that statement. I prefer to leave that angle alone)

Well, my thoughts there was that that how they replaced those 'Greater Manifestations' in the Old Empires. the 'god spirit' would enter a newborn and become the next incarnation.

But maybe I have that wrong - the Old Empires lore is definitely a place I fall short on.

Maybe 'Divine babies' just grow REALLY fast (that's a trope - I think the last time I saw it used was in the Stargate series).....

Imaskari!





Yeah, you have it wrong. The manifestations didn't die or grow old. They also didn't rule (Gilgeam was different, he ruled directly). The incarnations ruled in the name of the manifestations. The incarnations however were born, gained some of the godly essence at adulthood, and lived out a normal lifespan. Also, to be clear, there might be several incarnations of a given god at a time. In fact, at one point "all" of the incarnations of Horus-Re were killed off around the time of the founding of Thay and an incarnation of Thoth had to rule as Pharaoh. It should be noted that not all of the royal bloodline become incarnations, so apparently another royal child of the house of Horus-Re (Hecaliant I believe) must have become the next incarnation and taken over as Pharaoh from this incarnation of Thoth.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Nov 2017 :  00:49:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My mistake on the Lamashtu thing. Mythology from that region is a weak spot, for me.

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Markustay
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Posted - 26 Nov 2017 :  00:57:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No matter how many times we discuss it, the whole 'Incarnations' and 'Manifestations' thing confuses the heck out of me. I keep thinking they're two words for the same exact thing.

Well, I did leave open the option of him sucking a comrade (another Godling) dry instead, when both were mortally wounded (maybe during the Godwar). So there's that.

And I don't know if I came across this before, and just forgot it, but apparently Druaga is the same person as Ahriman. It makes some sense in regards to his title ("Ruler of the Devil-World")*, and some other 'off' lore (the story about Ahriman BEING the Nine Hells is repeated elsewhere, so its more than one source, which I also did not know). I was trying to see if there were any other candidates for 'ruler of Hell' before Asmodeus, and I thought of Druaga. However, he's already associated with the Hells - pre-Zargon even - so there's no need to speculate further.

I peg Lucifer as Hades, so we can leave him out. Both are dudes 'just doing their job' (Lucifer was never actually evil - he was tasked to tempt mortals. He was just way too good at his job).


*EDIT:
And reading even more about Asmodeus and the None Hells, it seems that in 4e it was turned into a 'planet' that drifted in the Astral (like so many other planes with the Great Wheel gone). At first I hated that, but then I read the description - round caverns within caverns, so the whole thing is like one of those 'nesting dolls', and Neesus is on the underside of Cania facing the central, fiery core. I think I like that A lot better than the original version - its more... mythical. The only part I truly hated was that it was drifting in the astral, which has been fixed in 5e, Does anyone know which version it looks like in 5e? Or is that left up to us?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2017 21:37:36
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 30 Nov 2017 :  10:56:18  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So while searching chessenta lore i came across a few interesting things, the main one is the Wandering Dragon.

So according to GHoTR, in 1317 DR, this huge dragon disease bag lazily floated around the sea of fallen stars and infected everyone with a plague of some sort, a plague that was different for the Old Empires.

So what is this Wandering Dragon. Is it an actual dragon, is it a construct or a magical creation. Why hasnt it been seen before (or maybe it has and we could link it to other plagues in the inner sea.

My initial thoughts are that it could be an imaskari experiment or a creation of tiamat, or a dragon tiamat found in raurin and allied with.

In pretty sure the wandering dragon appears shortly after tiamat is summoned to firetrees so im happy linking there (unless my memory is out by a few years and tiamat is summoned after 1317).

The bit about the plague being different in the old empires is curious and could be a good way for me to explain the rise in dragonspawn in unther in the 1370s without deific intervention. Perhaps victims of the plague in unther were turned into part draconic creatures and it didnt just affect humans.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 30 Nov 2017 :  11:13:46  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also thinking about the were crocodiles in adder swamp and the repeated infestations in mulhorand. It seems a bit far for them to migrate from the city on the river of swords to the adder swamp, how would they know about it and why would sebek be worshipped in unther and mulhorand by werecrocodiles only.

Rather i am thinking there are two crocodile cults, one in chessenta and one in mulhorand, and over the ages they merge when the city in mulhorand is destroyed and they go looking for a fabled city in chessenta.


So there was an invasion of beast cults into mulhorand after the orcgate wars i think. This ultimately led to the godkings wearing animal heads as they integrated the cults into their own religions. One of those may have been a crocodile cult that was taken over by a forgottem godking and potential relative of Set.
His main base of worship was the city on the river of swords that was later destroyed. Near there is azulduth and the remnants of okoth. What if the sarrukh tried to make the nearby humans into histaachi (part reptilian so they can control them easy) but the draft had unexpected side effects with the mulan blood that is slightly infused with the divine blood of the godkings. This changed them into a form of werecrocodile and their evil actions on behalf of the sarrukh led to the city being destroyed and the godking exiled for his followers actions.


While in akanu (now chessenta) there was a powerful fey creature called haastasssk who gathered a human following but was ultimately defeated during akanu's war against the fey in its borders. Haastassk (its a name i found associated with sebek in a sourcebook) had a habit of breeding with his followers and spawned humanoid crocdilian children.

When the city of Adanu was flooded and the adder swamp created, Haastaask and his children moved in and were joined by the werecrocodiles from mulhorand. They have since returned to mulhorand to reclaim their city.


The okothian sarrukh are trying their plans to dominate mulhorand again and have used histaachi again with similar effects except it has created wereserpents among the followers of Set.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 30 Nov 2017 :  20:51:00  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Given the Wandering Wyrm a name; Meiandringous.

I'm gonna do a wyrms of the north style writeup (which I will probably do for all important npcs).

I figure she was once one of the dragon overlords of the shining south in the days after the Illythiir cleared the forests with fire and before the Imaskari arrived. THe Imaskari captured her and experimented on her making her a living disease reservoir (and as a byproduct making her immortal).

After the fall of Imaskari she escaped across the Sea of Fallen Stars and lives in the caves and in a large bay around a very aptly named island in the Pirate Isles. I figure the priests of Assuran on the Dragonisle have been there a long long time and named the island. The cult of the dragon know of her presence and are trying to woo her. Everyone else is ignorant of her as she spends most time asleep under the water.

TiaMa'at returned to Unther 1305 DR and set about trying to wake Meindringous. 1317 DR the wyrm awakens and spreads a bunch of different plagues. THe one in Chessenta and Unther has a chance to turn people and creatures affected into dragonlike monsters. Most infected die and the monsters it makes flee into the wild or are captured by the cult of tiamat (or the cult of the dragon in Chessenta).

There have been a number of other plagues in the sea of fallen stars that I can blame on this dragon. 74DR in the Vilhon Reach is one that I spotted there are others in Cormyr and the Dalelands.

At least that's my idea for now.

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Markustay
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Posted - 30 Nov 2017 :  22:01:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First off, because he is described as doing his thing (Infection/contagion) 'around the Inner Sea', I would make him a Sea dragon (Serpent), which would also give him a bit of a different spin than most. Secondly, if he is some ancient creature (his 'disease' reminds me of old-school 'Mummy Rot'), you may want to connect him to whatever mysterious, 'god-like' entity is in the Wizard's Reach (its mentioned in the old Spellbound boxed set somewhere - I haven't looked through that in ages).*

And lastly, you may want to connect the disease itself to something found only in the Old Empires, since it appears to behave differently there. Some factor that changes/boosts the disease's symptoms. Since you now seem to be our resident OE expert, you can figure out what that could be (like maybe a piece of Abeir/primordial now stuck in Faerūn?) Somthting both (re)awakened it, and is augmenting it in the Old Empires. thats about as far as I dare go (with my limited OE knowledge).

As for having multiple groups of Werecrocodiles - the more the merrier, I say. They fit the theme of the Old Empires very well, so I would say that maybe having only two groups is being a bit conservative. Isn't Set manipulating Sobek? My thoughts here si that anywhere we find Set, we would find him promoting Sobek's crocodiles. Heck, I'd even throw a group of them up in the vast swamp in Cormyr, at this point.

Oh, and if you want really great visuals or inspiration, look up 'Krokotopia' from Wizards 101.
Man, I loved that silly little game a few years back.


*EDIT:
Oh, and as for why he's active now; if you don't want to connect his 'return' (or whatever) in the SoFS to the Spellplague, you could also use Sekolah and the Threat form the Sea, or the appearance of the Abolethic Sovereignty in the Inner Sea, both of which may have 'disturbed his rest'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2017 22:05:50
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 30 Nov 2017 :  22:13:03  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will check out spellbound tomorrow but im steering clear of gods and abeir (primordial creatures im fine with, they are just unique monstees).

I think maybe sebek (or sobek, that sounds better, good call) should be the mulhorandi godking and haastaask the fey monster (im picturing a 40 ft dire version of a crocodile).

Set probably had some past involvement with sobek (i bet sobek was supporting sets claim to the throne after the orcgate wars. Now however the mulhorandi godkings are true gods so have no direct effect on mortal happenings. Sobek is dead or a true god while haastaask is alive and in the adder swamp so the influences are through clergy only.


When i get to mulhorand i really want to emphasise the civil war after the orcgate wars.

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Markustay
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Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  03:30:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think its canon that Sebek/Sobek was supporting Set, at least on certain things. That's why the werecrocodiles went to Okoth, IIRC.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  07:52:02  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With regards to the disease doing something different in the old empires, it is the divine blood again and a little bit of tiamaats tinkering (she is only a demigod in 1300s DR so she has an actual physical body hiding out in firetrees).

So the divine blood of the godkings makes the histaachi brew transform the mulan into werecreatures, when it comes to the disease of the wandering dragon it tries to turn the mulan into humanoid dragons that look a lot like abishai (that way i can explain there presence in unther even though im using a different tiamaat to tiamat).

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sleyvas
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Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  13:26:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

So while searching chessenta lore i came across a few interesting things, the main one is the Wandering Dragon.

So according to GHoTR, in 1317 DR, this huge dragon disease bag lazily floated around the sea of fallen stars and infected everyone with a plague of some sort, a plague that was different for the Old Empires.

So what is this Wandering Dragon. Is it an actual dragon, is it a construct or a magical creation. Why hasnt it been seen before (or maybe it has and we could link it to other plagues in the inner sea.

My initial thoughts are that it could be an imaskari experiment or a creation of tiamat, or a dragon tiamat found in raurin and allied with.

In pretty sure the wandering dragon appears shortly after tiamat is summoned to firetrees so im happy linking there (unless my memory is out by a few years and tiamat is summoned after 1317).

The bit about the plague being different in the old empires is curious and could be a good way for me to explain the rise in dragonspawn in unther in the 1370s without deific intervention. Perhaps victims of the plague in unther were turned into part draconic creatures and it didnt just affect humans.




A dragon whose breath weapon is a virus? Actually very believable and a different spin on the usual "breathing fire/lightning/cold" thing.... maybe a variant on a green dragon's poison gas.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 01 Dec 2017 :  14:08:51  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was initially thinking green dragon but i like the idea of a sea serpent that markustay proposed because the dragon is described as lazily wandering the sea of fallen stars so it could be water based.

George came up with a sarrukh dragon monster that fought Garyx and since dragons are reptilian im wondering if i can come up with something similar.

I know that Unther found caches of sarrukh magic along the river of swords (the vault of records likely prompted the first mulhorandi unther war over this treasure trove of magic). I also know that Untheric wizards were quite powerful in the early empire and that they were capable of mutating monsters to create a greater quelzarm (a huge sea lizard undoubtedly of sarrukh origin).

So what if meiandringous is actually a creation of Unther (perhaps Ulgariph Ram-Chess created it before he was exiled - i made Ulgar part of a title so i can mer Ulgar and Iphram Chess together to give a bit more story to a historic character). Perhaps they took a quelzarm and altered it using magics akin to sarrukh body shaping, they made a horrid winged sea dragon.

However in order to power these super magics they used a power source closely linked to negative energy and it made meiandringous immortal but left it in a perpetual state of rot and regeneration (and a lot of pain).

Im still thinking tiamaat and her cultists woke the dragon to get vengeance on unther (the dragon plague hit unther particularly hard and only a few years after tiamaats return).


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Markustay
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Posted - 02 Dec 2017 :  02:15:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was thinking something that looked like a cross between a Lung Dragon (serpent-like) and a Western dragon, like maybe THIS.

I was surprised I didn't find a lot when I goggled 'Sea Dragon', probably because there is a real creature named that (Damn you, science!) There's also This Guy, but methinks he is a bit too Cthulhu-esque.

There are a couple with that sort of tentacle-thing going on in the hindquarters, and more of a traditional dragon 'up front'. Probably more normal-looking though, like THIS or THIS.

Call it a 'Plague Dragon' just to be different.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Dec 2017 02:17:23
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 02 Dec 2017 :  12:55:02  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do like that cthulhu monster. The tentacled dragons are likewise good.

Given that we have the cinnamon dragon and a few other unique dragons that i cant recall the name of, i will keep this as the wandering dragon. Its a unique being, will never spawn another and so doesnt really need classifying as a type.

It needs to be able to venture onto land and Brian James indicated it flies because flying troops battled it and all perished. But the wings could be stubby and only allow brief and slow flight (hence the wandering).


In doing a wyrms of the north style writeup i need to decide on her domain (sea of fallen stars), her lair (dragonisle), her deeds (most plagues in the inner sea lands except for the soneillon ones), her magic (mutating plagues i guess), and her fate (im thinking she wants to die because of the constant pain but would quite like to kill Ulgar and Gilgeam first for his part in her creation

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