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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3602 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2017 :  20:34:05  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Whats Open Grave, ive never heard of it but it seems to have some FR lore

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2017 :  03:13:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Whats Open Grave, ive never heard of it but it seems to have some FR lore



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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6218 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2017 :  13:35:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Thank you for pointing me in the direction of this Madrycoh dude.

I've decided to utilize him a bit differently than you, but I am hoping I can spin things where the two sets of lore don't have to be completely unbrigeable.

I am going to turn him into Thirayam from Open Grave. Once a student of Hilather, he later followed Tenchin (Tan Chin's name in Imaskar) when Tenchin opened his 'School of Necrotic Arts' in Bhaluin, and he later became headmaster after Tenchin left (he spent some time on Oerth).

So, since I've explained elsewhere how I going fudge the lore between Open Grave - that Thirayam WASN'T Tan Chin at all, but rather, an 'apprentice' of his, it all works out. This establishes an old connection between the two in MY lore, so that YOUR lore becomes 'a possibility' within that framework (the two of them may have even been using the same 'mortal vessels' when the other wasn't around, so that adds to the confusion).

Also, Open Grave's lore concerning Hantumah - formerly Khatiroon - works into where I've decided to go with Kara-Tur in 5e. Whatever Thirayam did there, he set off a necrotic chain-reaction, similar to what Szass Tam was trying to do with his Dread Rings. Thus, Tan Chin is now being blamed for all that, when in truth, he's probably all that's keeping it from spiraling completely out-of-control at this point (that would have to be one of those 'deep secrets', though, that PC's shouldn't never even suspect). Madryoch = Thirayam (and his Shadow Stone) makes all of this work out nicely - the stone could have been pivotal in reducing poor Ra-Khati to a land of undead.

We may now go back to our regularly scheduled thread...



Hmmm, thanks for the pointer to open grave... something else in 4e that's actually interesting. The astral corpse section in which an atropal is trying to ritual seize the power of a dead primordial/god is interesting. That primordial could also be interesting possibly in terms of the bloodforges we've been discussing.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3602 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2017 :  13:38:21  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, its 4e. That doesnt count as FR.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2017 :  17:44:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Oh, its 4e. That doesnt count as FR.



Officially, yes, it does count as FR. Your personal feelings do not affect what is and is not canon.

And was it really necessary to respond with nothing more than yet another pointless bash against the 4E Realms? A lot of us don't like what was done to the setting during that time frame... But continuing to whine about it is pointless. It's time to move on.

Besides, given your willingness to utterly twist and reshape prior editions of the Realms, does it really matter what happened in 4E? You've been pretty much rewriting the whole setting from the ground up, as it is...

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3602 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2017 :  18:13:55  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes it was entirely necessary. Its how i check that im still sane.

Do i hate 4e. Yes, good, still sane.
Do i feel bad about saying i hate 4e. Nope, good, still sane.

Ill still read it though on the off chance they had a good idea in there.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 16 Nov 2017 :  19:17:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Oh, its 4e. That doesnt count as FR.



Officially, yes, it does count as FR. Your personal feelings do not affect what is and is not canon.

And was it really necessary to respond with nothing more than yet another pointless bash against the 4E Realms? A lot of us don't like what was done to the setting during that time frame... But continuing to whine about it is pointless. It's time to move on.

Besides, given your willingness to utterly twist and reshape prior editions of the Realms, does it really matter what happened in 4E? You've been pretty much rewriting the whole setting from the ground up, as it is...

Unfortunately, however, in this case he is correct.

The lore was written generically, on purpse, by Brian James (he told me this himself), so that it could fit in a 'Core' rulebook, without anyone having a snit ("Hey! Thats FR lore! I don't want that in my game!") Thus, the lore itself is Core, not specifically FR, even though we fans know precisely who and what Brian was talking about.

On the other hand, there was NO 'Core vs FR' in 4e - they did away with the concept of 'separate settings' (which they have continued with - even more aggressively - in 5e). So one can make the case that it IS 'FR lore', but only in that all 4e lore was FR lore, and you could even say that stuff happened 'on some other world' (which is why BRJ wrote it the way he did).

My idea was to take it - AS IS - and use the discrepancies as part of the lore itself (which is why I decided to separate Tan Chin from this Thirayam, because that is NOT the way I wanted to go with him).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2017 19:17:57
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3602 Posts

Posted - 20 Nov 2017 :  21:16:58  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found a lovely bit of lore in the Westgate dynasties about King Ashtukzu I of the Mulan Dynasty.

He was meant to conquer Westgate for Unther in -27 DR, but instead crowned himself King of Westgate.

He deposed the reigning King Ryndarth II "the Masque King" as a doppelganger. Well I checked Ed Greenwood Presents and the tradition of masquerades around the Sea of Fallen Stars originally comes from Chessenta which in -27 DR was Unther controlled (and I'm calling Akanu). So now the Masque King was originally from Akanu and fled a few years back after he was connected to a series of high profile disappearances and outed as a doppelganger. He possessed a very distinguished mask and that was now owned by King Ryndarth. Gil-Geamesq and his court hear about this and put two and two together and realised King Rhyndarth II was actually the same doppelganger.

So they send Ass-Tukzu to reveal him as a doppelganger (King Ryndarth II was last of his dynasty) and secure Westgate with a mercenary force.

Unfortunately Ass-Tukzu crowns himself king Ashtukzu of the Mulan Dynasty. That annoys Gil-Geamesq to no end. He now mistrusts the whole House of Ass (of which the godking Ass-Uraqn known in normal FR as Assuran, was the founder) and so he begins making plans to remove Ass-Uraqn from Unther and his position of power as head of the armies.

That's why Ram-Manu comes from Akanu to Unther, and how he manages to subvert all the major temples in a short space of time with precision timing, he had the help and support of GIl-Geamesq and his priests and the armies of Unther.

Assuran flees to Akanu and becomes Hoar overtime while Ramman is now the lord of battles and the three thunders and leader of Unther's armies.

This pattern of Gil-Geamesq becoming suspicious of godkings and putting in plans to remove them is something I intend to repeat over the course of Unther's history.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  01:33:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, I recall there being a 'king' or some such there abouts. We had a discussion about it here quite awhile ago (it may have come up in the old 'Five Shires' thread - not sure). It was a one-off mention in one of the 2e lore-trove books by ED (PftM, PftF, or SotM). He had a short-lived kingdom somewhere around Reth (which is NOT part of Chondath - its an independent Citystate). The only thing I can (just barely) remember was that he had a very ostentatious title.

There's also Scarbala which existed just north of Telpir (north of Turmish - that city is also NOT part of a kingdom) - I think it was some sort of 'pirate realm'. I got both of these from Krash, in the Five Shires thread, and I never made a note of where the lore was from (so I hope he chimes in here so that I can correct that). If I had to guess, this one was probably in one of Steven Schend's SoFS products.

And lastly we have Tor Mak, from the original (2e) Lords of Darkness product, which is a 'lost citystate' near (north of) Colletro in the Blade Kingdoms. This was the site of the adventure under the 'Shadows' heading, but the lore involved comes from the errata found here at the keep (where Ed gives its precise location).
quote:
As REF5 Lords of Darkness tells us, "Widden Valley is a broad expanse of grassy fields and tree-lined hills. The narrow Widden River bisects the valley. To the south of it is the village of Meryn. To the north of it is the ruined city of Tor Mak...once a prosperous place, a center of learning that was home to scholars and wizards. But the walled city was laid waste in the Goblin Wars, now long past." Like Daufin, this locale was created by Deborah Christian for REF5 Lords of Darkness, and the whereabouts of Tor Mak was kept nebulous therein so DMs could most easily transplant it into their own campaigns. At the time, I chose to make the Widden the middle tributary of the River Nun (the one that on the mapsheet for The Vilhon Reach rises closest to Colletro), and placed Tor Mak about three miles north of the river and about fifteen miles east of the headwaters of the Widden, and Meryn about ten miles south of the river and about sixteen miles from its rising (in other words, farther west than 'due south' from Tor Mak). I didn't develop any backstory for either Tor Mak or the Goblin Wars, because play in the 'home' Realms campaign didn't reach the ruins, and because I like to leave mysteries lying around for other folks to build Realmslore on. :}
Readers of my lore-screeds on Chondath will recall that all of this area is in the hands of various self-styled lordlings. The closest of these is Faelae Windthrarn, who calls himself 'Crowned Lord' of the Malander-which is the valley occupied by the main River Nun, that (if one navigates upriver from the sea in a very small boat) is the westernmost branch, and reaches farthest south. The Malander is a small realm of verdant barley and root-crops farms, policed by the swift-riding 'knights' of the Crowned Lord. Lord Windthrarn dines on and exports a constant supply of sheep, too plentiful in numbers to be supported by the small number of fields he gives over to grazing, and Elminster suspects that the Crowned Lord has a captured deepspawn in a cavern somewhere busily disgorging an endless stream of sheep. In the original 'home' Realms campaign, this law-of-the-sword region is very much like the Border Kingdoms: adventurer types are endlessly arriving, butchering or running off the resident lordlings, and setting themselves up with grand titles (such as "The Overking of All Crommador" and "The Exalted Lord of the Great Realm") to rule over a few cow pastures, a village, a mill, a keep, and a woodlot or two-until the next would-be ruler comes along. It makes for great adventuring, with running feuds, lurking Thayan agents making alliances with one lordling against another and then backstabbing their recent allies, intelligent undead and mages who want to cast experimental spells and practice monster-crafting running amok, outlaws rushing in (hotly pursued) with stolen treasure to hide, and the works. When PCs need a breather, they can always seek the Underdark or a big war elsewhere as a place to relax in.

All 'Realms' that are now long gone, in and around this 'Akanul' area (fallen kingdoms between Chessenta and Westgate, which may or may not fall out within the time period you are fiddling with).

And perhaps of interest, the stuff ED gave me about Aralent, both from his 2009 (pg.28) & 2012 threads (pg.27). Although Aralent (the Town) itself falls well outside of this "in between Unther and Westgate" thing you are working on, the lore covers the same region between Chessenta and the Vilhon Reach. (Its some great 'Ed lore', but I've slightly changed the town by the Giant's Run Mountains to 'Aralant', to avoid confusion with the valley, which is far to the south, at the end of the Vilhon Reach).

I know you like to weave this sort of stuff together (as much as I do), so have fun.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Nov 2017 01:34:22
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  01:39:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and as for Tor Mak and Meryn, I just placed them on a map a little while ago, which is part of a product that will be up on the DMsGuild, hopefully tomorrow (If I can just get the cover done!)

The maps therein are exclusive to the product. I'll have more about it when its up.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
853 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  01:54:01  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You've got my interest, Markustay

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  02:59:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its actually a product by a good friend of mine, that I put a lot of work into a long time ago, and was nearly forgotten. Now he resurrected it and made it '5e ready', and polished-u the original map I did, whilst adding a regional one as well.

And here is one of the relevant quotes (for the first realm) from my above 'list'.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

From Pages from the Mages VI (Dragon #164):

The Glandar's Grimoire: The Glandar was a mage-king of long ago, whose lands were somewhere near the Vilhon Reach. "The Glandar" is actually a title; his real name has been forgotten. It is known that the Glandar was an intelligent, powerful mage whose Art was skilful enough to create aerial craft even in those dim days, and whose small kingdom boasted irrigation, medicine, and Art far more advanced than those of neighbouring lands.

The Glandar was also a cruel tyrant who permitted no other being beside himself to study Art in his lands - and this policy proved to be his undoing. He was alone when attacked by a group of young, ambitious mages of Unther. Although he slew many of them, he was overwhelmed and utterly destroyed. His grimoire (so named because its first page bears only the inscription: "The Grimoire Most Perilous of the Immortal Glandar, Lord of the Undying, Scepter of Glandara") was seized by his slayers, whip battled each other for the spoils, wreaking much havoc in the fallen mage's land of Glandara. ("Scepter" was the title the Glandar ruled by; "Lord of the Undying" is believed to refer to his mastery of undead, through Dark Art).

-- George Krashos
George and I both felt this realm would best fit somewhere in or around The Nunwoods.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Nov 2017 02:59:33
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  03:02:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And this for Scarbala -
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Oh, and to be a further pain ... from Polyhedron #96:

The Scarbarlatine

Of old, a realm of pirates and fisherfolk flourished in the northerly coastal regions of what is now Turmish. This land of Scabarla turned its attention to the sea and so expanded west and south into the dense forests of the day only slowly.

When expansion did occur it provoked raids from the satyrs and other woodland denizens. And then a war began that ultimately destroyed both sides.

Scabarla's piracy earned it no friends and many enemies, and in the end the Scarbarlatine found themselves attacked from the sea by men, harried by monstrous creatures inland, and worn down by a decade of severe winters.

One spring more than 500 years ago, the last survivors fled, leaving behind only stone walls and buildings. Today, a few of these ruins survive in the northerly coastal reaches of Turmish: a port whose harbour is almost entirely silted up, several walled towns, and two villages.

These ruins (plus the occasional isolated tower or mound of collapsed stone) are collectively known as "the Scarbarlatine" for the folk who built them. During the past 400 or so years, they've been rebuilt and inhabited by successive waves of visitors, restless Turmishan experimenters, and folk who dream of things being more as in Sembia, Cormyr, or wherever else they fancy.

-- George Krashos


So we have Scarbala (just north of Telpir), Glandara (likely somewhere around The Nunwoods), Tor Mak (Citystate between The Nunwoods and the Blade kingdoms), and fallen Qluelantyr (mentioned in the Aralent stuff Ed wrote), somwhere 'inland Chessenta'. Four former 'realms' between Chessenta and Westgate, with little to no lore.

Have at it.

EDIT:
Also in the Tor Mak stuff was a supposed 'Goblin Wars', which may or may not be related to the Orcgate Wars. This is why Tor Mak fell (despite being a place of wizards, so those must have been some rpetty tough goblins). Not the close proximity of Glandara - its fall may also be related to those same wars.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Nov 2017 03:15:07
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14553 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  03:26:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Combining some stuff, maybe 'The Glandar' was a wizard of Tor Mak. And maybe he either took advantage of the situation of the Goblin Wars, or was responsible for instigating it in the first place. Either way, I can see him continually raising hordes of dead goblins to continue the fight, just so he would have time to kill/and or rob his rivals of their magic (books and items).

When it was all over, Tor Mak had fallen, and most of the goblins lay dead as well (the last remnants retreating back into the Akanapeaks). Glandar took his horde of magical items and books and set up his own kingdom nearby, naming it Glandara. The city of Reth is all that remains of his former capitol, Glandreth. Some say the Emerald Enclave was founded nearby just to deal with all the undead that continued to plague the region years after his death, and rumor has it that his huge stash of magic items and spell books still remain in some hidden cache, awaiting to be found.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Nov 2017 03:27:32
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 21 Nov 2017 :  06:44:26  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Awesome finds Markus. Unfortunately my Akanu is actually located in Chessenta (before it became Chessenta) and its control of any land in the Vilhon ended long before Jhaamdath fell, which puts it out of time and place for this lore.

However i had long felt that the events of the Iron Legion adventure booklet took place in the centuries after 0 DR and a Goblin War would fit nicely as the Dark Three arrive in eastern Vilhon and set about trying to conquer it all. They could continue stealing power from powerful artefacts and beings in order to fuel their growing divinity.
This is the huge missing chunk of time from the Vilhons history. So im going to bank these for later and use them when i get on to the Vilhon Reach

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 22 Nov 2017 :  07:33:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Qluelantyr is in Chessenta-proper. I placed it smack-dab in the middle of the big empty area just above the Akanamere.

Using the Iron Legion stuff to flesh-out the Goblin Wars could work (I was also going to use it to explain the weirdness with the Whamite isles - they have Khans there!), but I just hate dipping into that... work. Its a little too 'messy'. It completely ignores Erlkazar (then again, everyone, including RAS, ignores Erlkazar).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 22 Nov 2017 :  08:18:33  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Never heard of qluelantyr, i havent got round to looking at chessenta yet but if you have any obscure mentions (ta for thr ones above i will use them) then please let me know the sources.

Chessenta is a difficult place as it is one of those places that changed massively over a few centuries but there are almost no details about that change, a lot like the vilhon reach.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 22 Nov 2017 :  08:27:01  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In fact if anyone comes across any stray mention of chessenta in a sourcebook or web article (or even a novel) then please post it here

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 24 Nov 2017 :  07:36:25  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Worked out a brief outline of messemprar. Nothing particularly interesting about the city apart from the current events (maybe something will inspire me later), its got large carnivorous lizards in the undercellars beneath the city which are descended from the flying lizards the army used to fly in battle when fighting dragons long ago.

Going through my chessenta lore at the moment. Looking to link Ulgar and the sapphire of enki and the artefact wessalen arturia is searching for. I figure they are all connected in some way to Gilgeam and his paranoid tyranny because 2000 years ago is just right for when Gilgeam ascended to the throne of unther. Big artefact that helped unthers expansion, magic that could alter quelzarm, ulgar exiled to the pirate isles, and the first grand viceroy. Must be a link somewhere

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 24 Nov 2017 :  19:26:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

In fact if anyone comes across any stray mention of chessenta in a sourcebook or web article (or even a novel) then please post it here

Pirates of the Fallen Stars, pg.68

quote:
Ulgar Isle
Ulgar Isle, of all the islands in the Pirate Isles, is truly haunted. The undead rule this island, led by an ancient vampire from the empire of Chessenta: Ulgar.
Ulgar the Undying was made vampire during the height of the Chessentan Empire nearly 2,000 years ago. After preying upon that empire for over two centuries, he was trapped. Although he could not be destroyed (at least as far as the Chessentans knew), they shipped him to this island in the middle of the Sea of Fallen Stars, there to live out eternity.
Ulgar remained undisturbed, trapped within a sealed coffin for nearly two millennia. Then, during Immurk's time, a band of pirates who were searching for a new lair came across Ulgar's coffin and opened it. Starving for blood, he drained them all dry before his thirst was sated. He then went out to the ship, but found that he did not have the knowledge of modern sailing craft, and so was still marooned.
Other vessels visited the island, each falling under Ulgar's trap, until finally one of the ships managed to flee with someone still alive to tell of what occurred. The island was declared uninhabitable, and all on the Inner Sea were warned to avoid it.
Like many such items, however, there are always those who would tempt fate. Supposedly, Ulgar possesses secret magics known only to the Chessentan Empire which are otherwise unavailable. Several expeditions to gather Ulgar's secrets have landed on the island; most have failed.
Ulgar now has over fifty vampire servants. Most of them are sealed in coffins of Ulgar's making, waiting for victims to feed upon, as even a vampire of Ulgar's age cannot control fifty starving vampires. Those who did not become vampires have been raised as zombie servants, and these patrol the island, bringing all intruders to Ulgar so that he may feed.



"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Nov 2017 19:28:50
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 24 Nov 2017 :  19:56:09  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank ye very much. Now i just need a way to tie ulgar into the history.

Im wondering if Ulgar was a great wizard involved with magically altering creatures to weaponise them. So we have them create greater quelzarm and other nasties, he accidentally transforms himsrlf into an uber form of vampire that even Gilgeam and the other godkings of akanu cannot destroy.

So how do they get a super being to an island far away. Im thinking one of the godkings sacrifices himself by battling Ulgar onto a ship that sets sail for the island while the godking and greater vampire lord battle below decks. Ship docks the two fight onto the island and the godking commits suicide to power a powerful curse that binds ulgar to the island.

The ship sails away but it was damaged during the fight and sinks (that ship could be the sapphire of enki in cloak and dagger).



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Markustay
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  05:46:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IIRC, Vampires can't cross water, so islands are the perfect place to trap them - no curses necessary.

Maybe Ulgar became an uber-vampire after drinking a 'godling'.

I remember in the True Blood TV series, Vamps went bats**t crazy (appropriate, no?) for Fey Blood = it was like Ambrosia to them. I think drinking the blood of a God would be akin to that.

I wonder if Aumvor is annoyed that Ulgar uses his title?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2017 05:52:23
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  17:44:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

IIRC, Vampires can't cross water, so islands are the perfect place to trap them - no curses necessary.


They can, just not under their own power... So all an island-bound vampire has to do is wait for some unsuspecting person to land there, and then a quick charm later and the vampire is no longer trapped.

Dracula did make it to England, after all.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Nov 2017 17:45:22
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Markustay
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  19:06:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, but England didn't have a vampire problem until after they built that damn tunnel.

But seriously, I actually can't see a vampire charming a human and then ordering them to take them across the water. Its like a phobia to them. That would be like someone with a fear of heights telling his friends to force him to go skydiving. What I CAN see happening is the vampire getting a minion, and it making its desires known (in a round-about way), and then the minion acts on its own (taking the coffin aboard a ship during the day). The vampire(ss) in RLB's Undead trilogy trembled when she looked at open water - the text explicitly said she had to 'fight with all her will not to go running screaming in the opposite direction', and she was VERY powerful. Its not something that's easy to override (although she managed, so I suppose Ulgar could as well).

And getting back to the original topic - I'd prefer to make him a bit different than a standard vampire anyway. Whereas 'the West' has its liches and vampires', the 'East' (and I would lump the Old Empires into that) should have mummies and... something else.

For example, from Wikipedia -
quote:
Mesopotamia
Many cultures in ancient Mesopotamia had stories involving blood-drinking demons. The Persians were one of the first civilizations thought to have tales of such monsters; creatures attempting to drink blood from men are depicted on excavated pottery shards. Ancient Babylonia had tales of the mythical Lilitu, synonymous with and giving rise to Lilith and her daughters the Lilu from Hebrew demonology. Lilith was considered a demon and was often depicted as subsisting on the blood of babies. The legend of Lilith was originally included in some traditional Jewish texts: according to the medieval folk traditions, she was considered to be Adam's first wife before Eve. In these texts, Lilith left Adam to become the queen of the demons (she actually refused to be Adam's subordinate and thus was banished from Eden by God himself) and, much like the Greek striges, would prey on young babies and their mothers at night, as well as males. Because Hebrew law absolutely forbade the eating of human flesh or the drinking of any type of blood, Lilith's blood drinking was described as exceptionally evil. To ward off attacks from Lilith, parents used to hang amulets around their child's cradle.

So perhaps Ulgar is one of these more demonic-looking vamps, like the ones from Buffy (we could probably just use Nosferatu). An 'eater of babies'. I still like the idea that he drank a godling (either a dying one during a war, or a newborn... the newborn is MUCH creepier). And that's why he is now 'undying' (practically unkillable), and they had to go through extreme measures to get rid of him. I'm thinking if they stake him, he'd just turn into mist and reappear elsewhere, and if he was tied down in sunlight he'd just respawn from his ashes as soon as the sun went down. Something like that. Come to think of it, its almost like he has the powers of a Chosen (from my take, not anything canon, of which there is so little).

EDIT:
I kept reading, and interestingly, vampires in Mesopotamian myth are associated with Lamashtu, who is in Pathfinder and called "The Mother of Monsters". She also has affiliations with Pazuzu (so she SHOULD be D&D canon as well, because of her RW mythos). She is associated with Lilith, who I associate with Lolth. Lamashtu seems more like a primal version of Tiamat to me, but that could screw a lot of things up (maybe, maybe not - I don't want to start discussing Cosmological cross-pollinations again!). However, I've also spun a rivalry between Tiamat in Lolth in my D&D, and I have to wonder if it isn't possible that Araushnnee didn't learn from/serve tiamat for atime after she was cast-out of the Seldarine, and then she did in the Abyss what Tiamat did in the Hells - become a 'fiend lord' by association (in other words, her time as a 'Demon Queen' was something she learned from Tiamat, as a way to rebuild he power-base). Tiamamt may have betrayed by all that, so she would take on both a 'mentor' role, and a hated rival, for Lolth (which would shoe-horn nicely with the associations between Lilith and Lamashtu).

Of further interest is that Pazuzu was invoked (by Sumerians) to protect women and their babies from Lilitu ('Lilith's daughters'). Invoking one Demon Lord (an Obyrith) to counter another... interesting. I'm glad they made him an Obyrith - it makes more sense that way (his motives are 'mysterious', and he doesn't always behave in a manner expected of a demon).

And I did it anyway... I need to stop thinking about Gods!!!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Nov 2017 20:28:19
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Nov 2017 :  19:12:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can't say I like the idea of a newborn deity... Why wouldn't a deity be born mature? They skip out on other aspects of mortal existence, so I don't see a reason for a deity to need to grow up. (And the thought of divine Terrible Twos is a scary one indeed!)

I can dig a newly ascended deity, perhaps a former mortal, growing into their place in the pantheon and the cosmos. But a baby divinity? That idea does not work for me.

(And yes, I realize the real-world implications of that statement. I prefer to leave that angle alone)

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