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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5009 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2019 :  09:42:05  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thankfully because the eladrin are mercenaries they can be found all over the planes in great tribes. A large number definitely followed the seldarine (I'm also considering if a number followed araushnee) when they left. So there presence everywhere and participation in major planar events is not a problem.

How they are made I'm not quite sure. The leshay I used the ancient empire origin but made them a leftover of the original universe before it shattered into the multi verse (like illithids) a faeree is the remnants of that universe.

It makes sense for the eladrin to be made of souls, however faeree is not one of the outer planes so souls don't go there when their bodies die, and Fey don't seem like the soul stealing kind. However I am defining a soul as positive energy given form, the experiences in its life allow it to grow and expand (experience) and faeree is a transitive plane between the material and the positive energy plane (shadow is a transitive plane between the material and the negative energy plane), so it's entirely possible that the leshay just took positive energy and moulded it into the eladrin.

At least that's my take on the planes and eladrin, which has far more to do with my moonshae thread than my old empires thread.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
676 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2019 :  14:58:44  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Haha, yeah I think I think this topic got derailed a bit, all due to Kazgoroth.

Maybe we'll continue this on the Moonshae thread.

But returning to the Old Empires, the novels from the Brimstone Angels series, Ashes of the Tyrant and The Devil You Know show some pretty interesting information on, and characterization of Enlil, the most he got in Forgotten Realms, or even in D&D, at least in terms of personality, as well as adding some Unther lore.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5009 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2019 :  18:07:07  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will go back and read the mulhorand and unther related novels as I found in the moonshae books there is some inspiration to be found in them, it just needs twisting and ungodifying.

The big problem is that I don't think there is a mulhorand or unther set of books like with the moonshae. I would imagine there are a number of novels that might touch upon the region, a number of other unrelated books that might be set there, and then the brimstone Angel's series of books.

It will take me a while to figure out which novels to read first, unless someone can already point them out.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
676 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2019 :  14:42:31  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I understand.

I think I should warn with the Brimstone Angels series, while good, Enlil only appears in the last two books, of a 6 novel long series.

Also, with Ishtar/Ish-Tarri - I know you gave her a story, but I wonder if Ishtar couldn't have become Sune, or an entity that split from her, or a former follower of Ishtar/Ish-Tarri.

(There is precedence Ishtar "fragmenting", as in lore she and Inanna split.)

There is very little known about Sune - her first known follower is noted to be from 2000 years ago (Champions of Ruin). While the stories of the artifact known as "the Sash of Sune", appear as far as 3000 years ago according to "Prayers to the Faithful", the same book mentions item is first wholly and reliably
identified in "Travels of Aruugh" chapbook from 1100 years ago (1000 years ago before the 4E timeskip), and it's possible the Shash of Sune, was known as the Sash of Ishtar before that, or was unrelated to her before that, possibly being relate to a another love goddess the theoretical proto-Sune/Ishtar subsumed/absorbed.

While the wiki states also Ishtar left Unther after Enlil did (-734 DR, curiously about 200 years ago), it was never written so in official lore, from what I checked, although I might be wrong.

This could also explain why Sune saved Sharess/Bast from Shar - when she was Ishtar (or part of her was Ishtar), they allies or maybe even friends. (Although this could be changed into politics of worshipers of Shar, Sharess/Bast and Sune.)

There is also though also an slight implication Sune, despite her (not allays though) described humanocentrism, might have some Fey origins, seeing the spell she gives "Merge with Nature" allows her cleric to permanently become a Dryad, but this might be due to Ishtar subsuming/absorbing/merging with a Fey (demi?) goddess/Archfey of beauty, love or lust, maybe even Verenestra.

Edited by - Baltas on 01 Jul 2019 15:29:36
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5009 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2019 :  16:22:30  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know Sune has completely undeveloped origins by anyone so I'm more than happy to throw a few into the mix.

I have already decided Ishtars fate but I have children of the gods, and the first and second generation are almost as powerful as demigod in their own right, so I might use Ish-Une as a children of Ish-Tarri who flees across the inner sea when Gilgeam takes charge.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
676 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2019 :  19:55:16  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm glad you liked my idea, and yeah Sune being Ishtar's/Ish-Tarri's daughter works.
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5009 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2019 :  20:34:24  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Odd discovery in Prophet of Moonshae.

Over 1700 years ago Gotha was terrorising the world. Then 237 years ago he flies north over the Endless Wastes and the Sunrise Mountains (although that direction would be a north westerly flight i think) to some ice land where he is imprisoned.

The direction of his flight makes me think that Gotha laired around Mulhorand or perhaps one of the Dragon Overlords of the south (Shaar, etc)

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
676 Posts

Posted - 20 Oct 2019 :  17:59:44  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, I was reminded of this bit from the Book of Necromancers (which also Includes the Iron Spires of Ereshkigal), were Loviathar takes on the role of Inanna/Ishtar, specifically from Inanna's Descent into the Underworld, and a bit of the Epic of Gilgamesh:
quote:
When Our Lady of Pain discovered her sister had left the Land of the Living and taken refuge in the World of the Dead, her wrath and fury were boundless. She descended to the Land of No Return, through the caverns and
lower regions known only to this spirits, until she reached the city of Erkalla itself, ruled by Cyric, the King of the Dead. And Loviatar approached the gate of the city, known as Ganzir, and pounded her Flail of Tears on the door, demanding to be let in, but her command was unanswered, and her screams resounded through the streets of Erkalla:

"Gatekeeper, I am here at Ganzir before the Walls of Erkalla. Open these gates for me! I am Loviatar, Maiden of Pain, Mistress of Sorrow, and I shall smash down this door if you do not open it! I shall crack open the
bolts with my Flail of Tears and sunder the iron with my Scourge of Despair. I shall release all the dead from city of Erkalla, and they shall climb up the stairs of the earth. I shall raise up the dead, and they shall eat the living: the dead shall outnumber the living!"

And the Gatekeeper appeared, and he opened the door, but he would not let Our Lady pass: "Mighty Loviatar, Maiden of Pain, you cannot enter Erkalla with your symbols of Power. Leave them with me, and then you may visit the King."

Our Lady of Pain saw the truth in his words, and at the gate of the city, she stripped off her talismans. She gave up the Flail of Tears, surrendered the Scourge of Despair. She unwrapped her Robe of Severed Hands, and
coiled up her Whip of Countless Afflictions. She unwrapped the spiked wire from her hair and plucked out the needles from her nails.

And at last Loviatar was finished, and the Gatekeeper escorted her into Cyric's dismal palace. And the King of the Dead saw Our Lady humbled, and in his throne room of glory, he heard her complaint. Cyric made his
voice heard like a gavel of thunder, and he spoke loudly his judgment, with the following words:

"I am Cyric, Lord of Erkalla, and I welcome you to my pale domain. You have no power here in my most ancient city: over the dead only I am King. I have heard your request and will honor it. When you leave, your sister
shall accompany you. But each winter she will come back and visit me, and I shall return her to your side in the summer."

Our Lady of Pain heard his pronouncement, and she left gladly with her sister beside her. Thus Loviatar ascended from the netherworld, resuming her just punishment of Man.
—"Loviatar's Descent into the Netherworld,"


Even the sister of Loviatar isn't specified as Kiputytto, some theorizing it's Ereshkigal. (With Loviatar taking on Inanna's role as Ereshkigal's sister, like she did to take Inanna's role in this story.)

I think it might be also a clue Loviatar (when she was a Demigoddess roaming the Realms) absorbed Inanna, or stole her portfolio during or after the Orcgate Wars, or her worshipers converted a number some of Inanna's worshipers. Inanna was also a Lawful Evil deity, and it's possible this is were Loviatar got the sexual aspects of her pain portfolio, while loosing her mythological connection to disease.

Then again, from the same book, we also have Kazerabet, born as Innana az-Khunjhati al-Hilmi, if much after Inanna's death, ie in mid–12th century DR.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kazerabet

She was born in Hilm, Zakhara, but as we explored, there is a connection between Unther (And Mulhorand) and Zakhara, via early Mulan.

Edited by - Baltas on 20 Oct 2019 18:20:29
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8852 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2019 :  22:36:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
regarding what you just described (Loviatar taking over portfolios from Inanna), I would say that's a very likely truth. I would say that the being that became Ishtar took only the goodly side considering how she's described. Ishtar then later gave her power to Isis.

However, I never saw THAT link of Kazerabet to the name Inanna..... man, I really need to look at that Zakhara stuff again now that I've studied a little more. She comes to Ysawis, "city of the dead", and becomes its queen. This is ripe for some "gods reborn in human form" theories.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
676 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2019 :  15:47:46  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's also curious Kazerabet, despite being a Neceomancer, also is specifically described as having a fondness for summoning baatezu to her aid.

This is interesting, as Inanna had her realm in Baator...


Edited by - Baltas on 23 Oct 2019 15:49:57
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8852 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2019 :  22:43:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, even if we just go with the idea that people got in the habit of naming their children after gods (even dead gods), there's way too many coincidences of names from the Sumerian / Babylonian Pantheons appearing down in Zakhara via either the supplements or the complete book of necromancers. To my knowledge, we don't have any definitive canon lore of Mulan people's going to Zakhara, but I have a strong feeling that there was another tribe besides the Mulhorandi and Untheric peoples.

Ironically, there are a large number of powerful people in realmslore who are named after these deities, making one think that perhaps they are "god-kings"/incarnations. By that, I note this Inanna, there was also a "lamia noble" beneath Unther named Ereshkigal, there was a genasi named Ningal in Unther, and then of course Gilgeam coming back and the return of nanna-sin. This does kind of fit with the "story" we're seeing in the sword coast adventurer's guide... for what it says is happening in Mulhorand... but its actually the Sumerian/Babylonian names that you see appearing more in "mortals who are powerful and influential". Again though, a simplistic explanation of that could simply be that people liked naming children after the gods (look at Jesus being used as a common Mexican name, and how many "common" names in English are influential names in the bible).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5009 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2020 :  20:37:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well my brain appears to be unable to focus on anything for any length of time at the moment so its back to the old empires.

I'm going over my notes (and finding a whole host of new ones, like the info about Solon in the 3e Dragon Magic sourcebook).



I have a few things bothering me about Rauring.

1 - Why are the LeShay involved in Imaskar.
2 - Why are there so many genies in Raurin.


Now for 1. I know there is an entry in GHoTR about an Imaskar tower in Sarifal, and there is mention in the novel Darkvision about LeShay being the reason for the creation of the Imaskarcana, but is there anything else other than that, and which one came first (did GHoTR make the link first or was it the novel).

I just dont see the LeShay, a nature loving race of isolationists, giving anything to an evil enslaving magic hungry dominating empire.




For 2. the Desert of Desolation module has a efreet and a djinn as the main antagonist and a supporting protagonist. There is an efreet ruler in Deep Raurin, there are djinn and efreet and dao listed as being random encounters in the desert (the Horde book).

Did the Imaskari discover the genie as a form of end magic transformation (much like the netherese transformed into dragons and the miyeritar transformed into sharn). Or were elemental lords heavily involved in manipulating and influencing Imaskari society and so sent many genies to reinforce that relationship.

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Delnyn
Learned Scribe

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  00:42:59  Show Profile Send Delnyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Well my brain appears to be unable to focus on anything for any length of time at the moment so its back to the old empires.

I'm going over my notes (and finding a whole host of new ones, like the info about Solon in the 3e Dragon Magic sourcebook).



I have a few things bothering me about Rauring.

1 - Why are the LeShay involved in Imaskar.
2 - Why are there so many genies in Raurin.


Now for 1. I know there is an entry in GHoTR about an Imaskar tower in Sarifal, and there is mention in the novel Darkvision about LeShay being the reason for the creation of the Imaskarcana, but is there anything else other than that, and which one came first (did GHoTR make the link first or was it the novel).

I just dont see the LeShay, a nature loving race of isolationists, giving anything to an evil enslaving magic hungry dominating empire.





Didn't the Imaskari learn their dimensional magic from the fey? I cannot assume directly, let alone with consent. Perhaps the Imaskari picked up (looted) a few artifacts or studied a crossroads. I could definitely see the LeShay taking an interest in Imaskari work, if only to evaluate the potential threat posed. Considering the planar barrier the Imaskari raised against the Mulan pantheons, the LeShay would have very good reason to monitor the situation.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5826 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  02:50:57  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because the 4E WotC team was hellbent on shoehorning into the Realms all of the stuff that they had created to make the new edition unique - specifically the "Feywild" and the "Far Realm".

They weren't orphans in that regard. The changeover to the 3E Realms had some similar changes (and some of them we managed to massage into the lore, others we weren't given the chance ...) but not to the extent of 4E.

But I'm sure some will tell you different. A recent Twitter exchange showed me that.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 10 Apr 2020 02:51:50
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5009 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  08:31:31  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If it's a 4e shoehorn the I feel no guilt in undoing it.

Leshay and imaskar don't mesh well at all and the portal stuff was batrachi in origin so I'll stick with that.

Maybe I can confuse genie and leshay, everyone imagines genies as big, slightly overweight, Persian dressed aloof individuals, but what if they were slight, with angular features and pointy ears, that would look very Fey, especially with blue tinged or red tinged skin.

Khalitharius the efreet in desert of desolation could even be changed to Khalesharius and shortened to LeShar. He seems to be the leader of one faction of genies, perhaps the genies were manipulating imaskar culture during the later epochs. Perhaps jergal used the genies as his intermediaries to make the imaskarcana (leshay would not transform natural serpent scales into a key or a book or other ugly manufactured item).


So what was the lesson learnt George, is it a realms shattering revelation.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
676 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  16:26:31  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, to be fair there are and were mysterious Fey and Elven beings active near the historical Imaskari Empire - like Maraloi - who some theorized as possibly connected to LeShay - seeing like LeShay they were more "fey" than other elves, being weak to iron, resembling them physically (ie also being very fair and white haired), and commanding powerful "alien" magic:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Maraloi

There as well the half-even Maviddi (related to Maraloi?) of the Katakoro Plateau, and the Gold Elves of Narbeth (located in the Shalhoond/the Great Wild Wood) (the last being the creation of Ed):
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tsaparang_Fortress
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Narbeth

Edited by - Baltas on 10 Apr 2020 17:12:54
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5009 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  17:13:52  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
huh, never heard of narbeth or the maroloi.

The quotes i've seen say that the fey helped make the imaskarcana which is a terrible idea ( i much prefer and will be using George's idea that Jergal brought the golden skins of the world serpent to Imaskar and helped them reforge them into the imaskarcana).

It makes sense for the Raurin basin to once have been covered with forest, like the rest of Faerun. But these forests were probably destroyed during the Crown Wars and Narbeth is the only remnant of a much larger gold elf nation that the Ilythiiri burned.

Good stuff though for me to add into my old empires, cheers for the pointer.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
676 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  17:29:57  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No problem.

I also wondered if maybe Nabreth, Maraloi and Maviddi were remnants of a pre-Crown Wars Gold Elven Kingdom - with Maraloi fleeing north, and remaining/becoming again more Fey, and Maviddi being the survivors that mixed with the human population.
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5009 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  18:14:50  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The katakoro plateau is a long way off, and while the imaskar ended up on both sides of the yehimals, they did so by owning all the lands around it.

For the elves to end up on both sides I'm assuming they would likely have to occupy lands all around the northern edge of the yehimals, which would mean the hordelands were once forested and that forest vanished in an event outside of the burnings of the crown wars.

Not that its inconceivable for such an event to occur, it could have been a climatic change over 10000 years, or a sudden change like dragon fire. Might be interesting to find out, but is beyond the scope of my old empire rewrite.

I think I will have jergal manipulate the imaskar into creating the imaskarcana by placing the scrolls in elven ruins in Raurin or Murghom (which Imaskar once owned). Then the Imaskari can have used the scrolls to vastly accelerate their magical prowess and that included exploring other plains. Then they come to the attention of elemental lords and a number of genies end up serving the imaskari and helping them reforge the scrolls into other items (what else, short of wish level magic could reshape an artefact).

Everything else reported about the imaskari is just scholarly misinterpretation. The tower in the moonshae isles was not part of an alliance between imaskar and the leshay, it was a single artificer that set up shop far away to get hold of some exotic reagents.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5009 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2020 :  19:05:51  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps I can paint the imaskari like magical locusts.

The netherese found the nether scrolls and then did the rest themselves.

But the imaskari, there are batrachi runes on the gates they used to abduct the mulan. There are sarrukh baetith ruins in thay and the imaskari ruled that region for a time. They supposedly were allied with the Fey (although I'll be repurposing that because it's just a bad idea). Then theres the spellweaver ruins around fuirgar.

So they hoover up all the magical lore they can find and try using it, this is how they create extra dimensional spaces a few centuries after learning magic (that'll be spellweaver magic). That's probably how they managed to open a portal to the abyss or baator and summon an enormous fiend krakentua into their capital city (I'll be changing that to zargon to line up with the elder Evils book).

Finding the nether scrolls Is just another step into stealing the magical lore of other races and repurposing it for themselves, but this one catapults their magical power exponentially.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
5009 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2020 :  13:15:35  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looking to flesh out pre imaskari history in Raurin.

I figure it was forested land like almost everywhere else. The Orcgate had batrachi runes on and was the same gate used by the Imaskari to steal the Mulan people.

So Raurin must have been a hot and humid jungle way back in the past

We know what ends the batrachi empires (the tearfall)


Next up are the giants (there are giants in the Giants Belt and in the desert). I dont think Raurin was part of Ostoria, but when Ostoria fell in -25000 DR, i reckon a number of giants fled south and east ahead of the expanding Great Glacier. They arrive in the forested land of Raurin and rule uncontested for many millennia.

Unsure of a name for the giant nation but i think Fuirgar is the Mulhorandi name and Fuirgar doesnt really fit the giantish language for their other nations (Ruanaroch, Nedeheim, Ostoria, Grunfesting).

Now either proliferating landwyrms end the giant empire, or the migration of the dwarves from the yehimals ends the giant empire (or both). some time between -16000 and -15000 DR.

Then gold elves from Orishaar fleeing the War of Three leaves end up in Raurin around -15000 DR (i realise Orishaar is stated as moon elven, but usually that just refers to the ruling house or most dominate/numerous race).

I think i shall call the elven nation in Raurin Faerlorpiir, which could be easily corrupted over time to Aerilpaar (one of the few remaining remnants of that great forest, Shalhoond being the other remnant). Faerlorpiir means Place of Magical Treasure, in reference to the number of batrachi ruins and treasures.

Then the Ilythiiri burn down the forests in Raurin around -11000 DR. The humans in Durpar gradually expand north as the lands heal and so around -9000 DR the humans move into the plains of Raurin and Imaskar is born.


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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 11 Apr 2020 13:24:27
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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Apr 2020 :  13:58:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison


For 2. the Desert of Desolation module has a efreet and a djinn as the main antagonist and a supporting protagonist. There is an efreet ruler in Deep Raurin, there are djinn and efreet and dao listed as being random encounters in the desert (the Horde book).

Did the Imaskari discover the genie as a form of end magic transformation (much like the netherese transformed into dragons and the miyeritar transformed into sharn). Or were elemental lords heavily involved in manipulating and influencing Imaskari society and so sent many genies to reinforce that relationship.



For that matter, I have always pictured the Imaskari as less of wizards and more of pact makers. I can never find the reference anymore, but in 2e lore when they were introduced, I remember there being something about them having dealings with devils a lot as well (they were binding devils into things, including tying devils to items, etc...). Again, don't ask where I got that reference from, but I feel like it was in some horde adventure or something.

So, that makes me wonder if the Imaskari lack of reverence for gods was because they saw so many beings that were willing to trade power for service (and they in turn were binding beings into service with power). Why do I bring this up? The concept of the Sha'ir may have been common in Imaskar. Warlocks, binders, sha'irs, alienists … these things which we see as modern day fringes may have been relatively commonplace in Imaskari society. Well, what other types of warlocks are there? Fey warlocks... and there were the Leshay.

So, if they were making pacts, what were the Imaskari DOING in exchange for this power? Possibly they were taking slaves and giving them to these cultures (i.e. genies taking mortal slaves from sha'irs, devils take slaves as sacrifice, far realms entities using slaves as mortal hosts, and possibly fey using slaves as "transformation stock" in attempts to win a war between fey courts occurring on other planes.

Now, am I saying that the Imaskari lacked wizards entirely? By no means. I expect sorcerers may have been more common though, and that may have been due to some form of magical transformation. Rather than the typical idea of breeding with them though (making genasi, tieflings, aasimar, half-fey), the Imaskari may have looked into transformation magics to "steal" what makes someone have the powers of a creature. They may have learned it binding genies into lamps and devils into binding signs. Later they may have learned to bind said energies not into items, but rather themselves, somewhat like a lich's transformation ritual.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Apr 2020 14:08:09
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 11 Apr 2020 :  14:17:32  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a good point

GHoTR details the moment the cult of demogorgon unleash the krakentua in Inupras. I will be changing that to be Zargon from Elder Evils.

The forming pacts with other creatures is definitely there in the early years. Perhaps it was phased out over time after they got hold of the golden skins of the world serpent (if you can obtain limitless magical power through quick study why bother making pacts with powerful beings).

Perhaps it is after the retaking of inupras that the elemental beings they once served become slaves themselves (genie lords on the elemental planes do not have a lamp, so someone has to have learned first how to bind then into objects).





I did a few checks and as far as George Krashos' article (Lord of the End of Everything) is concerned, the Imaskari get hold of the Golden Skins of the World Serpent sometime after -4370 DR.
That gives them plenty of time to learn the abundantly available spellcasting from the Nether Scrolls and advance to the point that they can challenge Zargon in Inupras and defeat him, and then turn the Nether Scrolls into the Imaskarcana with the help of newly enslaved genies that they used to serve in return for magical power.

I reckon the Imaskari used to help these genies, getting slaves and treasure for them, so that the genies could send it back to their elemental lords. The Imaskari probably also served demons, yugoloths, devils, etc. All of this was in return for whatever magical power they could obtain.

Once they had the Nether Scrolls they became the masters of these outer planar beings, and realised that the genies were the best slaves (devils will always try and take your soul, demons were uncontrollable). They probably learned to bind these genies into vessels like lamps.

Suddenly every artificer of any worth would aspire to have his own enslaved genie.



When Imaskar fell during the Battle of Whirling Sands, the Imaskaroloth was unleashed and that destroyed just about anything it touched. The genies were freed of their enslavement by the deaths of their masters, and they were freed from their lamps when the Imaskaroloth destroyed the lamps.

Now there are hundreds of genies in Raurin that are free roaming (bound to nothing and no one). They can of course return home to their elemental lord masters if they wish, but who would want that. So they remain as free genies.

A few of the most powerful genies achieved positions of note in history Khalitharius was the dominant personality within the Imaskaroloth as his "soul" was used to create it, kind of like how an elemental force is bound to animate a golem.

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 11 Apr 2020 14:44:52
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 11 Apr 2020 :  18:31:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The janni are what the imaskari transformed themselves into when they tried to become genies. Those artificers that survived the battle of whirling sands were being hunted by the mulan, so they transformed into genies (with the aid of their genie slaves who knew they would end up weaker and in service to the genie).

That's why janni have souls and can be resurrected and are bound to the material plane while other genies are not.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Apr 2020 :  02:19:16  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, given that the Imaskari spellcasters were known as "Artificers" may also be used to this end if one actually looks at a modern interpretation of that as a class. The Imaskari may have focused on the use of binding things to items and using items, much as how the "artificers" of Eberron have a focus on magic items... but possibly the Imaskari ones were even better at it. To note, one of the first things that the artificers of Eberron learn is working with extradimensional devices like a bag of holding.

Also, if all this were true, I'd definitely posit a link between ancient Imaskar and modern Zakhara of SOME sort.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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