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YUGULO
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  12:02:42  Show Profile Send YUGULO a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
The question is more focused on the number of followers than the type itself. According to the rules of AD & D 2.5, when a fighter reaches level 9 and has a stronghold he gains followers; When a cleric arrives at level 8 and builds an abbey or temple, he also gets followers.

If a multiclass (elf, dwarf) who is a Fighter / Cleric reaches 9/9 level, how many followers could he get if he builds a fortified abbey? Does the character get those of fighter, those of priest, or both?

Edited by - YUGULO on 24 Jul 2017 12:06:20

Kentinal
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  13:09:21  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My quick reply is when building an abbey the PC would collect followers of faith only. No followers attacked because the fighter aspect has not established a strong hold.

That is the PC chooses one on the other to concentrate on as name level. Head cleric has little time to also be head of a stronghold.

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YUGULO
Acolyte

Spain
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  14:27:59  Show Profile Send YUGULO a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you for the quick response.

Is there any way to have a structure that is an abbey and a fighter's stronghold or is that concept non-existent? If it exists, would it be an entity at the higher level, something like running a city that has the abbey of the cleric and a citadel of fighter commanded by the same character? In the literature of Forgotten Realms are there any mention of these questions or examples?

Edited by - YUGULO on 24 Jul 2017 14:29:46
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  15:58:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YUGULO

Thank you for the quick response.

Is there any way to have a structure that is an abbey and a fighter's stronghold or is that concept non-existent? If it exists, would it be an entity at the higher level, something like running a city that has the abbey of the cleric and a citadel of fighter commanded by the same character? In the literature of Forgotten Realms are there any mention of these questions or examples?



The whole gig of building something and gaining followers is a game construct; I've seen almost nothing in fiction or setting material that backs it up as a thing.

As for rules... Given the way 2E worked with multiclasses, I'd use that same basic principle for the structure. Hit the right level in both classes, and build a single structure that attracts half the followers you'd get from one class and half the followers you'd get from the other.

So your fighter/cleric would get half of the number of fighters, and half the number of clerics. I might be generous and boost that with an additional follower that was also a fighter-cleric, but no more than one (unless adjusting the other numbers of followers down, accordingly.)

At least, that's how I'd handle it.

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YUGULO
Acolyte

Spain
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  17:29:58  Show Profile Send YUGULO a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am very grateful for the answers, those points of view did not know them and I will be useful the time to focus the characters.


Edited by - YUGULO on 24 Jul 2017 17:31:08
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Hoondatha
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  22:45:04  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The way 2e multiclassing works, you get all of the advantages of the chosen class unless explicitly stated otherwise (ie: fighter/wizards can wear armor but can't cast spells in them, unless they're elves in elven chain). So a fighter/cleric would get all of the followers for fighter and all of the followers for cleric once they achieve the appropriate level.

That's the rules as written. There's no reason you have to follow them, though. One of the joys of 2e was how the system was built to be flexible; you could take or leave entire sections of it at will. If you as the DM don't want to give that many followers to a PC, then either of the two suggestions here are workable ways of making that happen.

On the other hand, if you're giving your PC followers, you're interested in taking the campaign in a "lord of the manor" direction. And in that case, more followers just means more land the character has to be responsible for, which means more ways you can find problems and adventures for it.

Bottom line, if I was running the campaign and was going to give followers at all, I wouldn't have any problem giving both fighter and priest followers. I would flavor it so that the fighter followers were either members of the PC's religion, or converts. In essence, they're more elite versions of the priest followers. If the player or I didn't want to bother with followers and running a stronghold or army, I wouldn't give either.

Either way, it's up to you.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  23:55:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

The way 2e multiclassing works, you get all of the advantages of the chosen class unless explicitly stated otherwise (ie: fighter/wizards can wear armor but can't cast spells in them, unless they're elves in elven chain). So a fighter/cleric would get all of the followers for fighter and all of the followers for cleric once they achieve the appropriate level.


They had to split XP, hit bonuses due to high CON, and even hit points, though. They did not get full proficiencies for each class, either.

Really, the only advantages they got was that they picked the best features of either class, and even that was subject to limitations.

That's why I suggested the split. If HP and XP were split and it was "best of" for everything else, then it's either split the followers or only get ones from the class that gets more.

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AuldDragon
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  01:15:00  Show Profile  Visit AuldDragon's Homepage Send AuldDragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

That's why I suggested the split. If HP and XP were split and it was "best of" for everything else, then it's either split the followers or only get ones from the class that gets more.



Rather than split or the "best ones," I would make the player choose. For example, a Temple Structure wouldn't count as a Fighter Stronghold, building a Temple would invalidate Ranger followers, etc. I would say nothing can count for multiple categories, and a character would only attract one type of follower (they'd either be known as a great warrior or as a great religious leader, etc.). It basically depends on what the player is known for.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  04:02:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

That's why I suggested the split. If HP and XP were split and it was "best of" for everything else, then it's either split the followers or only get ones from the class that gets more.



Rather than split or the "best ones," I would make the player choose. For example, a Temple Structure wouldn't count as a Fighter Stronghold, building a Temple would invalidate Ranger followers, etc. I would say nothing can count for multiple categories, and a character would only attract one type of follower (they'd either be known as a great warrior or as a great religious leader, etc.). It basically depends on what the player is known for.

Jeff



I can't disagree with this reading, but I'm reading the objective to be getting a type of structure that accomplishes two purposes. And I think it's fair to allow this for multi-class characters.

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see
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  06:34:38  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My interpretation twenty years ago was that it was purely additive -- if you were a fighter/cleric who built your half-funded-by-faith fortified abbey, it also counts as a stronghold, and you got both fighter and cleric followers. I don't know of any official ruling on the matter; it's not covered in the High Level Campaigns book that I can see.
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YUGULO
Acolyte

Spain
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Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  16:21:39  Show Profile Send YUGULO a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by see

My interpretation twenty years ago was that it was purely additive -- if you were a fighter/cleric who built your half-funded-by-faith fortified abbey, it also counts as a stronghold, and you got both fighter and cleric followers. I don't know of any official ruling on the matter; it's not covered in the High Level Campaigns book that I can see.



I suppose in this case, the priesthood pays half the costs of the part of the fortification dedicated to the temple and the rest must be paid in full. If you meet the requirements of warrior fortification, cleric temple and there is enough space I also think that you should be able to have both types of followers adjusting certain details.

After reviewing all the manuals of AD & D + Player's Options I have not seen any limitations. I imagine that the only one will have a construction that attracts those followers.

Regarding having half followers for being multiclass, a cleric / magician does not have half of spells for being multiclase, he has those that correspond to him for each class independently of everything else.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  16:57:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YUGULO


Regarding having half followers for being multiclass, a cleric / magician does not have half of spells for being multiclase, he has those that correspond to him for each class independently of everything else.



No, but his hit points and experience points will be split, he doesn't get both sets of proficiencies, and he won't be able to wear armor.

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YUGULO
Acolyte

Spain
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Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  19:07:50  Show Profile Send YUGULO a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by YUGULO


Regarding having half followers for being multiclass, a cleric / magician does not have half of spells for being multiclase, he has those that correspond to him for each class independently of everything else.



No, but his hit points and experience points will be split, he doesn't get both sets of proficiencies, and he won't be able to wear armor.



One thing is a datum they share, like hit points, and another the skills of each class like spells.

In Forgoten Realms, according to Demihuman Deities, there are also several elements that change with the traditional way of understanding multiclass and further separates classes.


quote:
Multiclassed Characters in the Realm: How multiclassed characters function has been subject to considerable debate. These rules explain exactly how to assign hit points, proficiencies, class abilities, and armor to multiclassed characters in the Realms:
• For hit points, roll all the character's Hit Dice, adjust each die for Constitution, and note the total somewhere. A character's hit point rating is the average of all the dice (the total divided by the character's number of classes). Drop all fractions, but do not discard the total; it will be used to help determine the character's hit points as she or he gains levels. Each time the character gains a level, roll the appropriate hit die, adjust for Constitution, and add it to the recorded total. Recalculate the character's hit points by dividing the new total by the character's number of classes, again dropping any fractions.
• Multiclassed characters get all the abilities from their classes (except armor and weapon use, see below). A character can use only one ability at a time, however, and cannot combine abilities as part of a single action. A fighter/mage, for example cannot make a melee attack while casting a spell, though she or he could use his or her fighter THACO when targeting spells that require attack rolls. A thief making a backstab attack must use his or her thief THACO to get his or her attack and damage bonuses (selecting just the right spot to hit puts a crimp on her overall fighting ability).
• Except as noted above, a multiclassed character uses the best THACO from his or her classes.
• A multiclassed character always uses the best available saving throw from all his or her classes.
• To assign proficiencies to a multiclassed character, choose the highest number of initial proficiencies from among all the character's classes. Thereafter assign a new proficiency whenever the character would normally earn them for each class.
• Multiclassed characters generally must abide by the worst armor restrictions among their classes. Multiclassed elf and half-elf mages can wear elven chain mail if one of their other classes is normally allowed to use chain mail. Multiclassed thieves suffer penalties to their abilities if they wear armor better that leather. Elven chain mail, padded armor, and leather armor impose the penalties noted on Table 29: Thieving Skill Armor Adjustments in the Player's Handbook. Other types of armor negate all thief abilities except open locks and detect noise. (These abilities still suffer the penalties from the "Padded or Studded Leather" column on Table 29.) Note that The Complete Thief's Handbook extends Table 29 to cover most types of armor.
• Multiclassed characters generally enjoy the best weapon selection from among all their classes, except for priests, who remain bound by their priest class's weapon restrictions. The sole exception to this exception is priests who multiclass with the ranger class, as in the ranger/cleric combination. These priests are allowed to use the ranger's weapon selection to supplement their allowed weapon selection.



Also you have to realize that in Player's Options you can have magician abilities to be able to cast spells with armor.

quote:
Armor (5/10/15): With this ability, a wizard may ignore the normal restriction against using armor. As a 5-point ability, the wizard may wear padded armor; for 10 points, the wizard may wear leather, studded leather, hide, or brigandine armor; and for 15 points, the wizard may wear any armor he chooses. Note that a wizard may not use any kind of shield.



With all this, what I want to indicate is that the "divisible between classes" and what "belongs to each class" is very detailed and would not be appropriate to mix it up.

Edited by - YUGULO on 26 Jul 2017 19:09:51
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  20:18:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Things that were common to all classes -- HP, XP, proficiencies -- were either split or were best of whichever class.

Followers were common to all classes.

No other benefit, aside from class abilities, was 'you get all from class X and all from class Y'.

Thus, followers are most logically either shared or best of.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 Jul 2017 20:19:49
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YUGULO
Acolyte

Spain
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Posted - 26 Jul 2017 :  21:12:50  Show Profile Send YUGULO a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Things that were common to all classes -- HP, XP, proficiencies -- were either split or were best of whichever class.


At the beginning, just created the character, the best possible number of all classes is used. Then, as each level class goes up, it gets proficiencies independently. In the rules of creation of multiclass it is very clear which parts are divided train the various classes to obtain a mean: hit points and initial skills. As levels gain the character, the only thing that is divided between categories are the points to hit and nothing else.



quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Followers were common to all classes.


That is a bit wrong. Each class has its own followers, which vary in both quantity and type. It's like talking about spells: Is a Ranger / Cleric the same as a Wizard / Cleric? However, they are all spells.


quote:

No other benefit, aside from class abilities, was 'you get all from class X and all from class Y'.


Cleric/Wizard: you get all spells from cleric and all spells from wizard. Followers are class abilities too.


The followers I consider are not like hit points. Each category has its own and obtains them differently. Just as if a cleric prays he obtains spells and if a magician studies obtains spells, each one in his own way, if the requirements are given to obtain followers is also done independently. You can get them from one, the other, or both.

I do not consider it enough to put a couple of buildings and everything is done, each category has its own requirement. In the case of a fighter / cleric, you would need a castle and an abbey, both things, the cost in gold can be high.

Edited by - YUGULO on 26 Jul 2017 23:55:49
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  04:29:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All classes got followers. That is not wrong. Getting followers was, therefore, not like class abilities, because class abilities were unique to each class.

But all classes got followers. All classes had hit points. All classes had XP. All classes used THAC0 and had some number of attacks. All classes had proficiencies. All classes had starting gold.

And with one exception, which wasn't addressed, all of those things were either best of or split.

So if everything else that was common to all classes was best of or split, how can you say this one other thing followed a totally different pattern?

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see
Learned Scribe

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Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  05:08:36  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by YUGULO

quote:
Originally posted by see

My interpretation twenty years ago was that it was purely additive -- if you were a fighter/cleric who built your half-funded-by-faith fortified abbey, it also counts as a stronghold, and you got both fighter and cleric followers. I don't know of any official ruling on the matter; it's not covered in the High Level Campaigns book that I can see.



I suppose in this case, the priesthood pays half the costs of the part of the fortification dedicated to the temple and the rest must be paid in full.

Not the way I interpret it.

The cleric text is that "the cleric may receive official approval to establish a religious stronghold", in which case "the construction cost of the stronghold is half the normal price". It has to include "all the trappings of a place of worship and be dedicated to the service of the cleric's cause", but the whole stronghold's construction coast is 50% off, not just the specifically religious facilities in it. Walls, moats, towers, whatever, 50% off.

The fighter test is that the character "must have a castle or stronghold and sizable manor lands around it." There is no specific requirement for what has to be in the "stronghold", just that it is one -- and a "religious stronghold" is a stronghold.

So, you build a stronghold as a cleric, complete with the 50% construction discount, and then you have a stronghold for purposes of the fighter follower requirement. You do also have to have the manor lands, of course. Collect your 20-200 0-level clerical soldiers, your fighter leader, your fighter troops, and your fighter elite unit.
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see
Learned Scribe

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Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  05:13:19  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

All classes got followers.

No, they didn't.

"A paladin does not attract a body of followers upon reaching 9th level or building a castle."
"Unlike many other characters, a wizard gains no special benefits from building a fortress or stronghold."
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YUGULO
Acolyte

Spain
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Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  09:06:56  Show Profile Send YUGULO a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

All classes got followers. That is not wrong. Getting followers was, therefore, not like class abilities, because class abilities were unique to each class.

But all classes got followers. All classes had hit points. All classes had XP. All classes used THAC0 and had some number of attacks. All classes had proficiencies. All classes had starting gold.

And with one exception, which wasn't addressed, all of those things were either best of or split.

So if everything else that was common to all classes was best of or split, how can you say this one other thing followed a totally different pattern?



As also indicated in previous posts, not all classes have followers. It is not something common, nor is casting spells.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 27 Jul 2017 :  09:55:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My mistake. Arguments withdrawn.

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