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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 11 Aug 2017 :  18:11:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And yet, they made the group from one of those islands one of the 5 MAIN factions. Serioulsy, WTF? {Mods - the 'F' stands for 'fudge' )

So I'm, working on the Vilhon Reach, and its the first time I've taken a hard look at what happened to the river systems... they did nothing with them. They didn't even include them (except for a couple of major ones here and there). Apparently, water no longer flows out of mountains toward the sea ("Its magic!")


{Fly on the wall observing a WotC meeting some time around 2005}

Guy running the meeting: "... and that brings us to this last thing." {holds up sack}
Second guy in-charge: "Ohhhh... whats that?"
GRtM: "I have in this bag the laws of Physics." {walks over to trash can, drops sack in".
{slow clap begins... some even stand up. Finally there is a cry of "Bravo, BRAVO!"

Yeah... it went something like that...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Aug 2017 18:12:46
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  06:32:23  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Which brings me to another point - something we WILL have to deal with. Some cities DID receive the logical treatment and wound-up way inland, like Alaghôn in Turmish. What happened there? People just wait around for a century and then, "Look! The waters back!"? More likely, new settlements would have been built on the new coast... what happened to those? Did Ao just wipe-out all the people living along those new coasts, or did he do something more 'miraculous'? (Ya know, like 'push' them inland so the new settlements were on the new coast, rather than just murder them all.)


I vote for Ao murdering them all.

In all seriousness, it always drove me crazy that the Realms would be filled with all these RSE's, but we would never see the actual consequences of cataclysmic events on normal people.

All of the water that was required to refill the Sea of Fallen Stars and stuff happened over a short period of time with an event called the Great Rain--if I understand it correctly. Can you imagine the mudslides and massive flooding that must have taken place?

There were probably millions of lives lost across the continent.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  07:55:15  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Which brings me to another point - something we WILL have to deal with. Some cities DID receive the logical treatment and wound-up way inland, like Alaghôn in Turmish. What happened there? People just wait around for a century and then, "Look! The waters back!"? More likely, new settlements would have been built on the new coast... what happened to those? Did Ao just wipe-out all the people living along those new coasts, or did he do something more 'miraculous'? (Ya know, like 'push' them inland so the new settlements were on the new coast, rather than just murder them all.)


I vote for Ao murdering them all.

In all seriousness, it always drove me crazy that the Realms would be filled with all these RSE's, but we would never see the actual consequences of cataclysmic events on normal people.



One can wonder why Toril isn't a planet devoid of life...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  12:09:14  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Which brings me to another point - something we WILL have to deal with. Some cities DID receive the logical treatment and wound-up way inland, like Alaghôn in Turmish. What happened there? People just wait around for a century and then, "Look! The waters back!"? More likely, new settlements would have been built on the new coast... what happened to those? Did Ao just wipe-out all the people living along those new coasts, or did he do something more 'miraculous'? (Ya know, like 'push' them inland so the new settlements were on the new coast, rather than just murder them all.)


I vote for Ao murdering them all.

In all seriousness, it always drove me crazy that the Realms would be filled with all these RSE's, but we would never see the actual consequences of cataclysmic events on normal people.



One can wonder why Toril isn't a planet devoid of life...



...many times over, lol.

Here is the Discovery Channel on what would happen if Earth were hit with an asteroid large enough to wipe out an entire city: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2S-IrZLbls

The equivalent of that happened during the Rain of Fire event when one of the Tears of Selune broke up and fell to the planet.

...then there is the creation of the Sea of Fallen Stars via an Ice Moon. Here is the Discovery Channels simulation of something of that size: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02S3_DEaQWA

In the Realms, there are no consequences. You can nuke the planet to hell and back, and they'll have everything rebuilt in less than a year. If you live at Zhentil Keep, which got destroyed and wiped out on a regular basis, it might happen even sooner. Well, unless a bigger evil takes you out like the Shades of Netheril, then you'll stay dead for at least a century. (But of course, you'll come back, largely unchanged.)
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  12:28:37  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

In the Realms, there are no consequences. You can nuke the planet to hell and back, and they'll have everything rebuilt in less than a year. If you live at Zhentil Keep, which got destroyed and wiped out on a regular basis, it might happen even sooner. Well, unless a bigger evil takes you out like the Shades of Netheril, then you'll stay dead for at least a century. (But of course, you'll come back, largely unchanged.)



You know? This remind of Hollow World, the subterranean setting from Mystara. When I asked someone the difference between Hollow World and the basic D&D Underdark, he said that there is a magic there that don't allow that world to change. So, civilizations don't evolve their cultures, environments don't change, natural selection don't apply in the normal manner (species don't evolve or go extinct, etc)...

I wonder if there is a magic of similar nature on Toril as well. A magic that don't allow Toril to change too much. The only change the Realms experimented was in 4e, with the Spellplague, and that happened just because Ao destroyed the Tablets of Fate (the very fundamental laws of Realmspace). Once he restored them, Toril returned to its status quo... well, at least 90% of Toril did.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Aug 2017 12:30:57
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1307 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  15:55:22  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Which brings me to another point - something we WILL have to deal with. Some cities DID receive the logical treatment and wound-up way inland, like Alaghôn in Turmish. What happened there? People just wait around for a century and then, "Look! The waters back!"? More likely, new settlements would have been built on the new coast... what happened to those? Did Ao just wipe-out all the people living along those new coasts, or did he do something more 'miraculous'? (Ya know, like 'push' them inland so the new settlements were on the new coast, rather than just murder them all.)


I vote for Ao murdering them all.

In all seriousness, it always drove me crazy that the Realms would be filled with all these RSE's, but we would never see the actual consequences of cataclysmic events on normal people.

All of the water that was required to refill the Sea of Fallen Stars and stuff happened over a short period of time with an event called the Great Rain--if I understand it correctly. Can you imagine the mudslides and massive flooding that must have taken place?

There were probably millions of lives lost across the continent.



Most probably most fled to the former coastal cities, boosting their populations.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1307 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  15:57:06  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

In the Realms, there are no consequences. You can nuke the planet to hell and back, and they'll have everything rebuilt in less than a year. If you live at Zhentil Keep, which got destroyed and wiped out on a regular basis, it might happen even sooner. Well, unless a bigger evil takes you out like the Shades of Netheril, then you'll stay dead for at least a century. (But of course, you'll come back, largely unchanged.)



You know? This remind of Hollow World, the subterranean setting from Mystara. When I asked someone the difference between Hollow World and the basic D&D Underdark, he said that there is a magic there that don't allow that world to change. So, civilizations don't evolve their cultures, environments don't change, natural selection don't apply in the normal manner (species don't evolve or go extinct, etc)...

I wonder if there is a magic of similar nature on Toril as well. A magic that don't allow Toril to change too much. The only change the Realms experimented was in 4e, with the Spellplague, and that happened just because Ao destroyed the Tablets of Fate (the very fundamental laws of Realmspace). Once he restored them, Toril returned to its status quo... well, at least 90% of Toril did.



In a sense yes, FR does have such magic, although less extreme then the Hollow World.

Its called AO, aka the Mr. Fix-it Overgod.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1307 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  16:07:31  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mulhorand is the perfect example, not happy with how the Imaskari were treating the Mulan, AO decided to even the odds by getting Ptah to fetch the Mulan's Gods.

Then millienia later AO decided the Gods are slacking so he causes the Time Of Troubles, at the end of which he yanks the Imaskari God Barrier away, so Mulan mortals can rule themselves, and Gods can live like Gods.

Then the Spellplague happens the Mulan Gods go MIA.

The Mulhorandi are not impressed.

So AO goes opps, that didn't work out, lets fix this, so he his the button on a partial reset, and the Mulhorand Gods come back as living Gods, because it turned out that actually worked better for the Mulan.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7138 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  16:12:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Which brings me to another point - something we WILL have to deal with. Some cities DID receive the logical treatment and wound-up way inland, like Alaghôn in Turmish. What happened there? People just wait around for a century and then, "Look! The waters back!"? More likely, new settlements would have been built on the new coast... what happened to those? Did Ao just wipe-out all the people living along those new coasts, or did he do something more 'miraculous'? (Ya know, like 'push' them inland so the new settlements were on the new coast, rather than just murder them all.)


I vote for Ao murdering them all.

In all seriousness, it always drove me crazy that the Realms would be filled with all these RSE's, but we would never see the actual consequences of cataclysmic events on normal people.



One can wonder why Toril isn't a planet devoid of life...



...many times over, lol.

Here is the Discovery Channel on what would happen if Earth were hit with an asteroid large enough to wipe out an entire city: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2S-IrZLbls

The equivalent of that happened during the Rain of Fire event when one of the Tears of Selune broke up and fell to the planet.

...then there is the creation of the Sea of Fallen Stars via an Ice Moon. Here is the Discovery Channels simulation of something of that size: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02S3_DEaQWA

In the Realms, there are no consequences. You can nuke the planet to hell and back, and they'll have everything rebuilt in less than a year. If you live at Zhentil Keep, which got destroyed and wiped out on a regular basis, it might happen even sooner. Well, unless a bigger evil takes you out like the Shades of Netheril, then you'll stay dead for at least a century. (But of course, you'll come back, largely unchanged.)



One major thing to throw in here though... the realms has magic, which CAN defy physics. So, when say gods make meteors plunge at the planet, unlike on earth, they can be slowed down so that their impact is not so great. A first level spell, feather fall can make a person fall at greatly slowed down speeds.

btw, Markustay, on that, I'm not saying I don't agree with your discussion of river flows... and that kind of thing I'd like to hear more on. The concept of how freshwater and saltwater interact and stuff like that is intriguing, and your discussion of needing locks on the lake of salt caught my eye.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1307 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  16:17:12  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One important difference between the Renewed Mulhorand and the old Mulhorand, is that their is no Imaskari God Barrier, so the Mulan Gods will not be wasting their time trying to bring it down.

Seriously that was why the Mulhorand Gods manifestations were not very active outside of emergencies, letting mortals run things, they were busy trying to bring the barrier down.

With more free time, the Gods will be more active this time. Huge rammifications.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  16:57:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doesn't that mean we are free to add other Mesopotamian gods if we wanted to?

Personally, I'd like to some 'blending' f the pantheons - just one for the Mulan, and then a few gods of each (Mulan and Faerûnian) in each other's pantheons, most under aliases. The Mulan pantheon should cover the entirety of the Shining South, and extend into the Hordelands (where it 'mixes' with the Shou Panthoen). In fact, the Hordeland's Padhran faith (in the mountain countries) even have a few Faerûnian gods in it (its one of those religions that believes in the validity of ALL 'gods', thus, if they find out about one, they add it in, no matter where its from).

Chult should have a conjoined pantheon with Katashaka and perhaps those two HUGE islands. The island chain coming off Zakhara (The Farahsahad Islands) should be a blend of that one and Zakaran. Malatra uses the Vedic (thats in canon, BTW - people tend to forget we have those guys), and Osse and Anchoromé is unknown.

Maztica, however, has its own pantheon, and their gods are a near-perfect (only one is way off) fit for the Draconic Pantheon. Thats why I've always held those are just humanocentric aspects of the dragon deities. Hell, the place even has manscorpions, and in mythology, TIAMAT created those! This all ties into my theory that Maztica was NOT 'whisked away' to Abeir - it just went home. Their mythology even speaks of the 'True World' that was lost to them! They consider Toril 'the false world'. Maztica proably wound-up on Toril because of an earlier apocalypse (FR has one every other week).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  17:17:57  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

One important difference between the Renewed Mulhorand and the old Mulhorand, is that their is no Imaskari God Barrier, so the Mulan Gods will not be wasting their time trying to bring it down.

Seriously that was why the Mulhorand Gods manifestations were not very active outside of emergencies, letting mortals run things, they were busy trying to bring the barrier down.

With more free time, the Gods will be more active this time. Huge rammifications.



Aren't the returned Mulhorandi deities just incarnations, though, and not full manifestations like those of old? I thought they came 'back to life' through their descendants. Basically, some Mulan walking around suddenly began showing the power of incarnations, which the Mulhorandi worshiped (in the past) as the physical representatives of their deities.

...or am I wrong, and these are full on manifestations of the deities themselves that basically body snatched their descendants to return to life?
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7138 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  17:35:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

One important difference between the Renewed Mulhorand and the old Mulhorand, is that their is no Imaskari God Barrier, so the Mulan Gods will not be wasting their time trying to bring it down.

Seriously that was why the Mulhorand Gods manifestations were not very active outside of emergencies, letting mortals run things, they were busy trying to bring the barrier down.

With more free time, the Gods will be more active this time. Huge rammifications.



Where did this come from. Its a neat idea, but to my knowledge they didn't waste energy on it. In fact, I'd say the reason they were aloof is simply they didn't want to waste their time with the tedium of ruling. They wanted faith energy, and they were getting it without all the hassle by simply using a series of intermediaries. Plus, too much direct contact with mortals gives them a specific perception of you, and we've all speculated that mortal perception can change gods.

Now Gilgeam, he was the control freak that had to rule directly and try and gain praise. One wonders if his slide down the road to tyranny wasn't driven by the beliefs of his own people that he was a pompous ass when they saw him all the time (i.e. look at this jackass showing off his might by hurling a dragon turtle through perfectly good buildings, sheesh...).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7138 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  17:48:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Doesn't that mean we are free to add other Mesopotamian gods if we wanted to?

Personally, I'd like to some 'blending' f the pantheons - just one for the Mulan, and then a few gods of each (Mulan and Faerûnian) in each other's pantheons, most under aliases. The Mulan pantheon should cover the entirety of the Shining South, and extend into the Hordelands (where it 'mixes' with the Shou Panthoen). In fact, the Hordeland's Padhran faith (in the mountain countries) even have a few Faerûnian gods in it (its one of those religions that believes in the validity of ALL 'gods', thus, if they find out about one, they add it in, no matter where its from).

Chult should have a conjoined pantheon with Katashaka and perhaps those two HUGE islands. The island chain coming off Zakhara (The Farahsahad Islands) should be a blend of that one and Zakaran. Malatra uses the Vedic (thats in canon, BTW - people tend to forget we have those guys), and Osse and Anchoromé is unknown.

Maztica, however, has its own pantheon, and their gods are a near-perfect (only one is way off) fit for the Draconic Pantheon. Thats why I've always held those are just humanocentric aspects of the dragon deities. Hell, the place even has manscorpions, and in mythology, TIAMAT created those! This all ties into my theory that Maztica was NOT 'whisked away' to Abeir - it just went home. Their mythology even speaks of the 'True World' that was lost to them! They consider Toril 'the false world'. Maztica proably wound-up on Toril because of an earlier apocalypse (FR has one every other week).



Actually City of Gold portrays some of Anchorome's "Great Spirits" as beings with a place called wenimats that's a domain in the happy hunting grounds. That's in 2e, in the 3e world model, I'd just make a divine domain called wenimats and fill it with their great spirits (and their lesser spirits). In many ways, they resemble the spirits of Kara-Tur, but definitely different. I would not recommend trying to conjoin the two, but they may use similar mechanics for "using the power of the spirits".

Your idea of making one Mulan pantheon does work for me personally. Personally, of the Untheric pantheon, the only ones that I want to see come back are Enlil (truly Anu and because he is), Inanna, Ki, Gilgeam (because he is), and Marduk (because its established he has something to do with Bahamut). I'd also like the idea that some still worship Assuran up in Threskel. Part of me also likes the idea of Ramman, but there's already Anu and Marduk, both of whom are sky/lightning gods, and Anhur and Inanna for war. Still, I have this image of Ramman in my head and him loving Inanna, meanwhile in my Metahel pantheon having Thoros and Sifya.... and people wondering, hey....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7138 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  18:04:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

One important difference between the Renewed Mulhorand and the old Mulhorand, is that their is no Imaskari God Barrier, so the Mulan Gods will not be wasting their time trying to bring it down.

Seriously that was why the Mulhorand Gods manifestations were not very active outside of emergencies, letting mortals run things, they were busy trying to bring the barrier down.

With more free time, the Gods will be more active this time. Huge rammifications.



Aren't the returned Mulhorandi deities just incarnations, though, and not full manifestations like those of old? I thought they came 'back to life' through their descendants. Basically, some Mulan walking around suddenly began showing the power of incarnations, which the Mulhorandi worshiped (in the past) as the physical representatives of their deities.

...or am I wrong, and these are full on manifestations of the deities themselves that basically body snatched their descendants to return to life?



To my viewpoint, you are correct Aldrick. They are more like the incarnations of the gods. That being said, they are calling themselves by the gods names. Therefore, it might be best to say that they are more like the avatars during the ToT. They are mortals (and possibly descendants of the manifestations) that have allowed a god to inhabit their mortal body. So, whereas incarnations mainly had free will but were "guided" by the deity, this is a lot less so.

Also, maybe like during the time of troubles their priests are limited in their ability to cast spells. Maybe they have to prey at a Mulhorandi temple complete with a divine idol of the deity.

Possibly once they have enough worship energy, they'll be able to create manifestations. These manifestations might go back to the great pyramids they once dwelt in (which may serve as some kind of focal point where they bring the souls of their dead to). Once they have manifestations and enough faith energy, maybe they can then "reanchor" their divine domain of Heliopolis to the world so that souls can go there.... and then they can physically leave the world again.

But at present weakened avatars... still powerful... but weakened avatars... and if say Szass Tam or someone of similar power were to attack some of them he might be able to eliminate them. However, he might die too, just like the Imaskari Emperor. And those that are killed may still exist as some kind of godly spirit/vestige seeking some artifact of their past through mortals to at least get back up to the power level of weakened avatar.


BTW, what I just wrote up above (these varying levels of godlike power) is essentially the concept I've been working on for how the gods worked while in Abeir. One of the things I also hint at too is that Leira is specifically the reason that the primordials aren't sensing them, and when all comes out, all those gods may owe her favors as a result (she may have cashed some of these in already mind you, just keeping herself alive, but we only really need to hint, not spell this out).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2017 :  21:11:58  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Aren't the returned Mulhorandi deities just incarnations, though, and not full manifestations like those of old? I thought they came 'back to life' through their descendants. Basically, some Mulan walking around suddenly began showing the power of incarnations, which the Mulhorandi worshiped (in the past) as the physical representatives of their deities.

...or am I wrong, and these are full on manifestations of the deities themselves that basically body snatched their descendants to return to life?



The SCAG (p.12) says this:
"Since the Chosen of the gods began to appear in the last few years, Mulhorand has become a land transformed. Its deities manifested fully in the forms of some of their descendants, and swiftly rallied the Mulan to overthrow the Imaskari."

So, they are manifestations, I guess.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1307 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  00:10:19  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Aren't the returned Mulhorandi deities just incarnations, though, and not full manifestations like those of old? I thought they came 'back to life' through their descendants. Basically, some Mulan walking around suddenly began showing the power of incarnations, which the Mulhorandi worshiped (in the past) as the physical representatives of their deities.

...or am I wrong, and these are full on manifestations of the deities themselves that basically body snatched their descendants to return to life?



The SCAG (p.12) says this:
"Since the Chosen of the gods began to appear in the last few years, Mulhorand has become a land transformed. Its deities manifested fully in the forms of some of their descendants, and swiftly rallied the Mulan to overthrow the Imaskari."

So, they are manifestations, I guess.



I'm inclined to agree, but another part says incarnations, so the writers may have had some minor confusion between the two.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  01:34:55  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I'm inclined to agree, but another part says incarnations, so the writers may have had some minor confusion between the two.



When they refer to the Mulhorandi gods as incarnations, they are talking of their former, pre-4e selves. The new Mulhorandi gods are either referred as to manifestation or Chosen.

From p.41:

"Time took its toll, and the attention the deities of Mulhorand paid to their followers wavered and diminished. Each new incarnation of Isis, Osiris, and Thoth was a little more human and a little less divine. When the magically powerful Imaskari returned with a vengeance a little over a century ago, they stole the scepter of rulership from a grasp so weak it barely had any strength left.

...

Many prayed that the vanished gods would return and once again free them from Imaskari rule, and during the Sundering, that is what happened. What were referred to as Chosen in other lands were recognized in Mulhorand as living gods, come to lead the Mulhorandi in an uprising.

Today Mulhorand is ruled by demigods that call themselves by such names as Re, Anhur, Horus, Isis, Nephthys, Set, and Thoth. They take different forms, some human and others tieflings or aasimar, but all speak and act like the gods of legend come to life, which they must be."

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 13 Aug 2017 01:36:22
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  01:45:26  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, my concern is that if they are full manifestations that this could cause serious issues in the region. Mulan are culturally expansionist. This is true for the Mulhorandi Mulan, the Thayan Mulan, and the Untheric Mulan. If the Chessentan Mulan could stay unified they would be expansionist as well.

As a result, I fully imagine that the Mulhorandi are going to want back all of their formerly conquered lands. If they basically have a group of powerful deific manifestations united toward that goal... well... chances are they'll be successful.

I imagine that they would ally with Tymanthor as all of their enemies are the same enemies of Mulhorand. Tymanthor may become a protectorate of Mulhorand--independent governance, closely aligned with the Mulhorandi Godkings, with Mulhorand dedicated to defending it against outside aggression (and likewise they dedicated to defending Mulhorand). Gilgeam? Goner. They might not worry about Tchazzar right away, but they will be aligned against the dragon princes of Semphar and Murghôm.

So, do they have the power that they had in the old days, when they crushed the Imaskari Empire--meaning that they are full on powerful manifestations? Or, alternatively, are they more like powerful incarnations--basically the equivalent of powerful dragons or archwizards. The answer to that question probably won't change their overall goals or intentions, but it will change how easy or successful they might be in achieving them.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  02:11:38  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that isn't addressed in canon. So, I guess this is a job for the Candlekanon.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  02:12:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Trying to get something I can show tonight, but I doubt it. Getting too tired.

In the meantime, I noticed something - Ormpur on the 4e map is at the wrong river. Its moved over a hundred miles north! Why did all these cities grow legs and walk around in 4e? I bet it was Baba Yaga's doing!

(Oh, and while I'm on the subject of Baba Yaga - I wasn't able to find that 'new version' of her - not sure if it was in the Nentir Vale material or what, but it was definitely a witch/hag, living in a hut, with legs... but IIRC the legs were like tree roots... I think. Does anyone have any idea what I am talking about? I came across the illustration, and now I don't remember what book it was in.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  02:25:23  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

In the meantime, I noticed something - Ormpur on the 4e map is at the wrong river. Its moved over a hundred miles north! Why did all these cities grow legs and walk around in 4e? I bet it was Baba Yaga's doing!

(Oh, and while I'm on the subject of Baba Yaga - I wasn't able to find that 'new version' of her - not sure if it was in the Nentir Vale material or what, but it was definitely a witch/hag, living in a hut, with legs... but IIRC the legs were like tree roots... I think. Does anyone have any idea what I am talking about? I came across the illustration, and now I don't remember what book it was in.



Just blame the Spellplague for that. One of the good things of the Spellplague is that changed/altered reality ("Flesh, stone, magic, space, and perhaps even the flow of time were infected and changed" - FRCG, p.50). So, any changes on the geography can be explained with this. Is better that the unexplained retcon of 3e. It can also help to explain why stuff returned to their pre-3e states. When Ao undid the Spellplague, he re-shaped reality and returned those places to their 2e selves.

Anyhow, all info of Baba Yaga I know of in 4e comes from an article named "Baba Yaga, Mother of All Witches" and its companion adventure in Dungeon 196. But I cannot find that picture you mentioned.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 13 Aug 2017 02:35:27
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  05:02:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, it wasn't Baba Yaga - they changed her up (or rather, made another character that was EXTREMELY similar). She's a witch/hag, with a similar-sounding name (not precisley, but it has that same 'Slavic' flavor, and is two words just like Baba Yaga), and she lives in an old hut that has legs, but they aren't chicken legs. I 'think' they are tree roots, but I can't remember exactly. I was like, I need to make a note of this, and then a couple of days later I couldn't recall where I saw her.

It was during all that research I did for the Nentir Vale in The North conversion (which I still need to get back to - I want that to be a major part of the CandleKanon, if possible), so I am assuming it had to be from the 4e sources, since I am very familiar with earlier sources. It may have also been from something 5e, but there's not a lot of that. I've been througha lot of the relevant sources already (at least once, and some of them twice now) and still can't find it, so now I'm thinking it was something online - from the DDi (Dungeon or Dragon). In fact, I am almost 100% sure it had to be in a source you listed in YOUR NV notes from the Piazza, since I was heavily referencing those, and reading up on each entry (because you listed sources so beautifully - Eric Boyd would LOVE you).

Unfortunately, you are so THOROUGH with your research, it would take me over a month to go back through all that. I was hoping it would ring a bell. I just hope this isn't another case of the mysterious "Candlekeep Illithid" {I'll find you yet you squiggly thing!}

Because, ya know, sometimes when I am doing research until 3AM, I fall asleep and dream that I am still reading...

But I can actually 'see' the artwork in my head. So weird...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2017 05:06:02
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1072 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  08:02:14  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

It was during all that research I did for the Nentir Vale in The North conversion (which I still need to get back to - I want that to be a major part of the CandleKanon, if possible)


This is good to read, because I'm also preparing my notes of my Neverwinter campaign to e part of the Ckanon.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

"Candlekeep Illithid" {I'll find you yet you squiggly thing!}



This should be canon already.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7138 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  15:20:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I'm inclined to agree, but another part says incarnations, so the writers may have had some minor confusion between the two.



When they refer to the Mulhorandi gods as incarnations, they are talking of their former, pre-4e selves. The new Mulhorandi gods are either referred as to manifestation or Chosen.

From p.41:

"Time took its toll, and the attention the deities of Mulhorand paid to their followers wavered and diminished. Each new incarnation of Isis, Osiris, and Thoth was a little more human and a little less divine. When the magically powerful Imaskari returned with a vengeance a little over a century ago, they stole the scepter of rulership from a grasp so weak it barely had any strength left.

...

Many prayed that the vanished gods would return and once again free them from Imaskari rule, and during the Sundering, that is what happened. What were referred to as Chosen in other lands were recognized in Mulhorand as living gods, come to lead the Mulhorandi in an uprising.

Today Mulhorand is ruled by demigods that call themselves by such names as Re, Anhur, Horus, Isis, Nephthys, Set, and Thoth. They take different forms, some human and others tieflings or aasimar, but all speak and act like the gods of legend come to life, which they must be."



This is why I've been talking about 5 "grades" of gods or their "aides" again.

It would seem there are as follows in increasing power from across the editions

Chosen. Imbued with the power of their gods, these are individuals who are given power by a deity to aide their end goals. It cannot grant spells.

Incarnations. These are very similar to Chosen, BUT they share a blood tie to the original deity, and the power granted to them seems a bit greater. Their beliefs somewhat mirror the gods as well, so their free will may be inhibited some. It cannot grant spells.

Weakened Avatar. This is a mortal who has given up his free will to allow a god to inhabit its body. The mortal is no longer in control and taking a back seat so that all it can do is effectively watch (sometimes in horror) unless it tries really hard or gets some help. Still, despite this being a god, it is much less powerful. In addition, at least in 2nd edition, its priests couldn't cast spells higher than 3rd level unless they were within a certain radius of it (say like 20 miles). Avatars were all roughly the equivalent of like a 12th level mage for spellcasting level effects (I'd personally raise this, but 5e also doesn't use level effects a whole lot so...). NOTE: as a way of improving this, I'd recommend to use the DM's Guild "Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class" rules of idols to help expand the influence of a Weakened Avatar. This concept wasn't available in 2nd edition,

Manifestation - Much more powerful than a weakened avatar, and not requiring a mortal to share its body. This is what the Mulhorandi gods were pre-ToT. Also, beings of this level of power are able to create multiple incarnations (see previous). BTW, I'm personally thinking that THIS is what an Estelar is.

Disembodied God. This is what we normally think of as a god. They "reside" in the outer plane that is their home, but what that means exactly we don't know because you don't necessarily interact with them, etc... They can create multiple avatars, which are in effect something with power levels between a "weakened avatar" and a "Manifestation", as well as imbuing chosen.


Personally, on the returned Mulhorandi gods, I'd make it a mix of weakened avatars and manifestations. I'd personally also heavily push the idol rules and have it that the Mulhorandi are strong with divine magic in their home, but not outside of it as a result.

Oh, btw, Dungeon 178 changes Sebek. He became an Archfey offspring of the manifestation of Set and some bestial archfey named Mornach (never heard of him, so there may be no info).

Sebakar
Lord of Crocodiles, the Smiling Death
Evil Archfey [Wetlands]
Symbol:
Crocodile head surmounted by a horned, plumed headdress.
Compared to the other beings worshiped in Chessenta, crocodile-headed Sebakar (seh-ba-kar) is something of an anathema: the offspring of a forbidden union between the ancient Mulhorandi manifestation of Set and a bestial archfey of the Feywild known as Mornach. Sebakar is strong, but also cruel and capricious. He is venerated primarily by
his “children,” a brutal civilization of werecrocodiles inhabiting the wetlands of the Adder Swamp. Some say that Sebakar dwells at the darkest heart of the swamp, but no reports of the “Smiling Death” have
surfaced in decades. Priests of Sebakar are known as swamplords.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Aug 2017 15:22:48
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