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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 16:57:16
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Doesn't that mean we are free to add other Mesopotamian gods if we wanted to?
Personally, I'd like to some 'blending' f the pantheons - just one for the Mulan, and then a few gods of each (Mulan and Faerūnian) in each other's pantheons, most under aliases. The Mulan pantheon should cover the entirety of the Shining South, and extend into the Hordelands (where it 'mixes' with the Shou Panthoen). In fact, the Hordeland's Padhran faith (in the mountain countries) even have a few Faerūnian gods in it (its one of those religions that believes in the validity of ALL 'gods', thus, if they find out about one, they add it in, no matter where its from).
Chult should have a conjoined pantheon with Katashaka and perhaps those two HUGE islands. The island chain coming off Zakhara (The Farahsahad Islands) should be a blend of that one and Zakaran. Malatra uses the Vedic (thats in canon, BTW - people tend to forget we have those guys), and Osse and Anchoromé is unknown.
Maztica, however, has its own pantheon, and their gods are a near-perfect (only one is way off) fit for the Draconic Pantheon. Thats why I've always held those are just humanocentric aspects of the dragon deities. Hell, the place even has manscorpions, and in mythology, TIAMAT created those! This all ties into my theory that Maztica was NOT 'whisked away' to Abeir - it just went home. Their mythology even speaks of the 'True World' that was lost to them! They consider Toril 'the false world'. Maztica proably wound-up on Toril because of an earlier apocalypse (FR has one every other week). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 17:17:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
One important difference between the Renewed Mulhorand and the old Mulhorand, is that their is no Imaskari God Barrier, so the Mulan Gods will not be wasting their time trying to bring it down.
Seriously that was why the Mulhorand Gods manifestations were not very active outside of emergencies, letting mortals run things, they were busy trying to bring the barrier down.
With more free time, the Gods will be more active this time. Huge rammifications.
Aren't the returned Mulhorandi deities just incarnations, though, and not full manifestations like those of old? I thought they came 'back to life' through their descendants. Basically, some Mulan walking around suddenly began showing the power of incarnations, which the Mulhorandi worshiped (in the past) as the physical representatives of their deities.
...or am I wrong, and these are full on manifestations of the deities themselves that basically body snatched their descendants to return to life? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 17:35:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
One important difference between the Renewed Mulhorand and the old Mulhorand, is that their is no Imaskari God Barrier, so the Mulan Gods will not be wasting their time trying to bring it down.
Seriously that was why the Mulhorand Gods manifestations were not very active outside of emergencies, letting mortals run things, they were busy trying to bring the barrier down.
With more free time, the Gods will be more active this time. Huge rammifications.
Where did this come from. Its a neat idea, but to my knowledge they didn't waste energy on it. In fact, I'd say the reason they were aloof is simply they didn't want to waste their time with the tedium of ruling. They wanted faith energy, and they were getting it without all the hassle by simply using a series of intermediaries. Plus, too much direct contact with mortals gives them a specific perception of you, and we've all speculated that mortal perception can change gods.
Now Gilgeam, he was the control freak that had to rule directly and try and gain praise. One wonders if his slide down the road to tyranny wasn't driven by the beliefs of his own people that he was a pompous ass when they saw him all the time (i.e. look at this jackass showing off his might by hurling a dragon turtle through perfectly good buildings, sheesh...). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 17:48:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Doesn't that mean we are free to add other Mesopotamian gods if we wanted to?
Personally, I'd like to some 'blending' f the pantheons - just one for the Mulan, and then a few gods of each (Mulan and Faerūnian) in each other's pantheons, most under aliases. The Mulan pantheon should cover the entirety of the Shining South, and extend into the Hordelands (where it 'mixes' with the Shou Panthoen). In fact, the Hordeland's Padhran faith (in the mountain countries) even have a few Faerūnian gods in it (its one of those religions that believes in the validity of ALL 'gods', thus, if they find out about one, they add it in, no matter where its from).
Chult should have a conjoined pantheon with Katashaka and perhaps those two HUGE islands. The island chain coming off Zakhara (The Farahsahad Islands) should be a blend of that one and Zakaran. Malatra uses the Vedic (thats in canon, BTW - people tend to forget we have those guys), and Osse and Anchoromé is unknown.
Maztica, however, has its own pantheon, and their gods are a near-perfect (only one is way off) fit for the Draconic Pantheon. Thats why I've always held those are just humanocentric aspects of the dragon deities. Hell, the place even has manscorpions, and in mythology, TIAMAT created those! This all ties into my theory that Maztica was NOT 'whisked away' to Abeir - it just went home. Their mythology even speaks of the 'True World' that was lost to them! They consider Toril 'the false world'. Maztica proably wound-up on Toril because of an earlier apocalypse (FR has one every other week).
Actually City of Gold portrays some of Anchorome's "Great Spirits" as beings with a place called wenimats that's a domain in the happy hunting grounds. That's in 2e, in the 3e world model, I'd just make a divine domain called wenimats and fill it with their great spirits (and their lesser spirits). In many ways, they resemble the spirits of Kara-Tur, but definitely different. I would not recommend trying to conjoin the two, but they may use similar mechanics for "using the power of the spirits".
Your idea of making one Mulan pantheon does work for me personally. Personally, of the Untheric pantheon, the only ones that I want to see come back are Enlil (truly Anu and because he is), Inanna, Ki, Gilgeam (because he is), and Marduk (because its established he has something to do with Bahamut). I'd also like the idea that some still worship Assuran up in Threskel. Part of me also likes the idea of Ramman, but there's already Anu and Marduk, both of whom are sky/lightning gods, and Anhur and Inanna for war. Still, I have this image of Ramman in my head and him loving Inanna, meanwhile in my Metahel pantheon having Thoros and Sifya.... and people wondering, hey.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 18:04:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
One important difference between the Renewed Mulhorand and the old Mulhorand, is that their is no Imaskari God Barrier, so the Mulan Gods will not be wasting their time trying to bring it down.
Seriously that was why the Mulhorand Gods manifestations were not very active outside of emergencies, letting mortals run things, they were busy trying to bring the barrier down.
With more free time, the Gods will be more active this time. Huge rammifications.
Aren't the returned Mulhorandi deities just incarnations, though, and not full manifestations like those of old? I thought they came 'back to life' through their descendants. Basically, some Mulan walking around suddenly began showing the power of incarnations, which the Mulhorandi worshiped (in the past) as the physical representatives of their deities.
...or am I wrong, and these are full on manifestations of the deities themselves that basically body snatched their descendants to return to life?
To my viewpoint, you are correct Aldrick. They are more like the incarnations of the gods. That being said, they are calling themselves by the gods names. Therefore, it might be best to say that they are more like the avatars during the ToT. They are mortals (and possibly descendants of the manifestations) that have allowed a god to inhabit their mortal body. So, whereas incarnations mainly had free will but were "guided" by the deity, this is a lot less so.
Also, maybe like during the time of troubles their priests are limited in their ability to cast spells. Maybe they have to prey at a Mulhorandi temple complete with a divine idol of the deity.
Possibly once they have enough worship energy, they'll be able to create manifestations. These manifestations might go back to the great pyramids they once dwelt in (which may serve as some kind of focal point where they bring the souls of their dead to). Once they have manifestations and enough faith energy, maybe they can then "reanchor" their divine domain of Heliopolis to the world so that souls can go there.... and then they can physically leave the world again.
But at present weakened avatars... still powerful... but weakened avatars... and if say Szass Tam or someone of similar power were to attack some of them he might be able to eliminate them. However, he might die too, just like the Imaskari Emperor. And those that are killed may still exist as some kind of godly spirit/vestige seeking some artifact of their past through mortals to at least get back up to the power level of weakened avatar.
BTW, what I just wrote up above (these varying levels of godlike power) is essentially the concept I've been working on for how the gods worked while in Abeir. One of the things I also hint at too is that Leira is specifically the reason that the primordials aren't sensing them, and when all comes out, all those gods may owe her favors as a result (she may have cashed some of these in already mind you, just keeping herself alive, but we only really need to hint, not spell this out). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2017 : 21:11:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Aren't the returned Mulhorandi deities just incarnations, though, and not full manifestations like those of old? I thought they came 'back to life' through their descendants. Basically, some Mulan walking around suddenly began showing the power of incarnations, which the Mulhorandi worshiped (in the past) as the physical representatives of their deities.
...or am I wrong, and these are full on manifestations of the deities themselves that basically body snatched their descendants to return to life?
The SCAG (p.12) says this:
"Since the Chosen of the gods began to appear in the last few years, Mulhorand has become a land transformed. Its deities manifested fully in the forms of some of their descendants, and swiftly rallied the Mulan to overthrow the Imaskari."
So, they are manifestations, I guess. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 00:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Aren't the returned Mulhorandi deities just incarnations, though, and not full manifestations like those of old? I thought they came 'back to life' through their descendants. Basically, some Mulan walking around suddenly began showing the power of incarnations, which the Mulhorandi worshiped (in the past) as the physical representatives of their deities.
...or am I wrong, and these are full on manifestations of the deities themselves that basically body snatched their descendants to return to life?
The SCAG (p.12) says this:
"Since the Chosen of the gods began to appear in the last few years, Mulhorand has become a land transformed. Its deities manifested fully in the forms of some of their descendants, and swiftly rallied the Mulan to overthrow the Imaskari."
So, they are manifestations, I guess.
I'm inclined to agree, but another part says incarnations, so the writers may have had some minor confusion between the two. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 01:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I'm inclined to agree, but another part says incarnations, so the writers may have had some minor confusion between the two.
When they refer to the Mulhorandi gods as incarnations, they are talking of their former, pre-4e selves. The new Mulhorandi gods are either referred as to manifestation or Chosen.
From p.41:
"Time took its toll, and the attention the deities of Mulhorand paid to their followers wavered and diminished. Each new incarnation of Isis, Osiris, and Thoth was a little more human and a little less divine. When the magically powerful Imaskari returned with a vengeance a little over a century ago, they stole the scepter of rulership from a grasp so weak it barely had any strength left.
...
Many prayed that the vanished gods would return and once again free them from Imaskari rule, and during the Sundering, that is what happened. What were referred to as Chosen in other lands were recognized in Mulhorand as living gods, come to lead the Mulhorandi in an uprising.
Today Mulhorand is ruled by demigods that call themselves by such names as Re, Anhur, Horus, Isis, Nephthys, Set, and Thoth. They take different forms, some human and others tieflings or aasimar, but all speak and act like the gods of legend come to life, which they must be." |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 13 Aug 2017 01:36:22 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 01:45:26
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Yeah, my concern is that if they are full manifestations that this could cause serious issues in the region. Mulan are culturally expansionist. This is true for the Mulhorandi Mulan, the Thayan Mulan, and the Untheric Mulan. If the Chessentan Mulan could stay unified they would be expansionist as well.
As a result, I fully imagine that the Mulhorandi are going to want back all of their formerly conquered lands. If they basically have a group of powerful deific manifestations united toward that goal... well... chances are they'll be successful.
I imagine that they would ally with Tymanthor as all of their enemies are the same enemies of Mulhorand. Tymanthor may become a protectorate of Mulhorand--independent governance, closely aligned with the Mulhorandi Godkings, with Mulhorand dedicated to defending it against outside aggression (and likewise they dedicated to defending Mulhorand). Gilgeam? Goner. They might not worry about Tchazzar right away, but they will be aligned against the dragon princes of Semphar and Murghōm.
So, do they have the power that they had in the old days, when they crushed the Imaskari Empire--meaning that they are full on powerful manifestations? Or, alternatively, are they more like powerful incarnations--basically the equivalent of powerful dragons or archwizards. The answer to that question probably won't change their overall goals or intentions, but it will change how easy or successful they might be in achieving them. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 02:11:38
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| Well, that isn't addressed in canon. So, I guess this is a job for the Candlekanon. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 02:12:16
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Trying to get something I can show tonight, but I doubt it. Getting too tired.
In the meantime, I noticed something - Ormpur on the 4e map is at the wrong river. Its moved over a hundred miles north! Why did all these cities grow legs and walk around in 4e? I bet it was Baba Yaga's doing! 
(Oh, and while I'm on the subject of Baba Yaga - I wasn't able to find that 'new version' of her - not sure if it was in the Nentir Vale material or what, but it was definitely a witch/hag, living in a hut, with legs... but IIRC the legs were like tree roots... I think. Does anyone have any idea what I am talking about? I came across the illustration, and now I don't remember what book it was in. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 02:25:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In the meantime, I noticed something - Ormpur on the 4e map is at the wrong river. Its moved over a hundred miles north! Why did all these cities grow legs and walk around in 4e? I bet it was Baba Yaga's doing!
(Oh, and while I'm on the subject of Baba Yaga - I wasn't able to find that 'new version' of her - not sure if it was in the Nentir Vale material or what, but it was definitely a witch/hag, living in a hut, with legs... but IIRC the legs were like tree roots... I think. Does anyone have any idea what I am talking about? I came across the illustration, and now I don't remember what book it was in.
Just blame the Spellplague for that. One of the good things of the Spellplague is that changed/altered reality ("Flesh, stone, magic, space, and perhaps even the flow of time were infected and changed" - FRCG, p.50). So, any changes on the geography can be explained with this. Is better that the unexplained retcon of 3e. It can also help to explain why stuff returned to their pre-3e states. When Ao undid the Spellplague, he re-shaped reality and returned those places to their 2e selves.
Anyhow, all info of Baba Yaga I know of in 4e comes from an article named "Baba Yaga, Mother of All Witches" and its companion adventure in Dungeon 196. But I cannot find that picture you mentioned. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 13 Aug 2017 02:35:27 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 05:02:55
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Yeah, it wasn't Baba Yaga - they changed her up (or rather, made another character that was EXTREMELY similar). She's a witch/hag, with a similar-sounding name (not precisley, but it has that same 'Slavic' flavor, and is two words just like Baba Yaga), and she lives in an old hut that has legs, but they aren't chicken legs. I 'think' they are tree roots, but I can't remember exactly. I was like, I need to make a note of this, and then a couple of days later I couldn't recall where I saw her.
It was during all that research I did for the Nentir Vale in The North conversion (which I still need to get back to - I want that to be a major part of the CandleKanon, if possible), so I am assuming it had to be from the 4e sources, since I am very familiar with earlier sources. It may have also been from something 5e, but there's not a lot of that. I've been througha lot of the relevant sources already (at least once, and some of them twice now) and still can't find it, so now I'm thinking it was something online - from the DDi (Dungeon or Dragon). In fact, I am almost 100% sure it had to be in a source you listed in YOUR NV notes from the Piazza, since I was heavily referencing those, and reading up on each entry (because you listed sources so beautifully - Eric Boyd would LOVE you).
Unfortunately, you are so THOROUGH with your research, it would take me over a month to go back through all that. I was hoping it would ring a bell. I just hope this isn't another case of the mysterious "Candlekeep Illithid" {I'll find you yet you squiggly thing!}
Because, ya know, sometimes when I am doing research until 3AM, I fall asleep and dream that I am still reading... 
But I can actually 'see' the artwork in my head. So weird... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2017 05:06:02 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 08:02:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It was during all that research I did for the Nentir Vale in The North conversion (which I still need to get back to - I want that to be a major part of the CandleKanon, if possible)
This is good to read, because I'm also preparing my notes of my Neverwinter campaign to e part of the Ckanon. 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"Candlekeep Illithid" {I'll find you yet you squiggly thing!}
This should be canon already. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 15:20:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
I'm inclined to agree, but another part says incarnations, so the writers may have had some minor confusion between the two.
When they refer to the Mulhorandi gods as incarnations, they are talking of their former, pre-4e selves. The new Mulhorandi gods are either referred as to manifestation or Chosen.
From p.41:
"Time took its toll, and the attention the deities of Mulhorand paid to their followers wavered and diminished. Each new incarnation of Isis, Osiris, and Thoth was a little more human and a little less divine. When the magically powerful Imaskari returned with a vengeance a little over a century ago, they stole the scepter of rulership from a grasp so weak it barely had any strength left.
...
Many prayed that the vanished gods would return and once again free them from Imaskari rule, and during the Sundering, that is what happened. What were referred to as Chosen in other lands were recognized in Mulhorand as living gods, come to lead the Mulhorandi in an uprising.
Today Mulhorand is ruled by demigods that call themselves by such names as Re, Anhur, Horus, Isis, Nephthys, Set, and Thoth. They take different forms, some human and others tieflings or aasimar, but all speak and act like the gods of legend come to life, which they must be."
This is why I've been talking about 5 "grades" of gods or their "aides" again.
It would seem there are as follows in increasing power from across the editions
Chosen. Imbued with the power of their gods, these are individuals who are given power by a deity to aide their end goals. It cannot grant spells.
Incarnations. These are very similar to Chosen, BUT they share a blood tie to the original deity, and the power granted to them seems a bit greater. Their beliefs somewhat mirror the gods as well, so their free will may be inhibited some. It cannot grant spells.
Weakened Avatar. This is a mortal who has given up his free will to allow a god to inhabit its body. The mortal is no longer in control and taking a back seat so that all it can do is effectively watch (sometimes in horror) unless it tries really hard or gets some help. Still, despite this being a god, it is much less powerful. In addition, at least in 2nd edition, its priests couldn't cast spells higher than 3rd level unless they were within a certain radius of it (say like 20 miles). Avatars were all roughly the equivalent of like a 12th level mage for spellcasting level effects (I'd personally raise this, but 5e also doesn't use level effects a whole lot so...). NOTE: as a way of improving this, I'd recommend to use the DM's Guild "Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class" rules of idols to help expand the influence of a Weakened Avatar. This concept wasn't available in 2nd edition,
Manifestation - Much more powerful than a weakened avatar, and not requiring a mortal to share its body. This is what the Mulhorandi gods were pre-ToT. Also, beings of this level of power are able to create multiple incarnations (see previous). BTW, I'm personally thinking that THIS is what an Estelar is.
Disembodied God. This is what we normally think of as a god. They "reside" in the outer plane that is their home, but what that means exactly we don't know because you don't necessarily interact with them, etc... They can create multiple avatars, which are in effect something with power levels between a "weakened avatar" and a "Manifestation", as well as imbuing chosen.
Personally, on the returned Mulhorandi gods, I'd make it a mix of weakened avatars and manifestations. I'd personally also heavily push the idol rules and have it that the Mulhorandi are strong with divine magic in their home, but not outside of it as a result.
Oh, btw, Dungeon 178 changes Sebek. He became an Archfey offspring of the manifestation of Set and some bestial archfey named Mornach (never heard of him, so there may be no info).
Sebakar
Lord of Crocodiles, the Smiling Death
Evil Archfey [Wetlands]
Symbol: Crocodile head surmounted by a horned, plumed headdress.
Compared to the other beings worshiped in Chessenta, crocodile-headed Sebakar (seh-ba-kar) is something of an anathema: the offspring of a forbidden union between the ancient Mulhorandi manifestation of Set and a bestial archfey of the Feywild known as Mornach. Sebakar is strong, but also cruel and capricious. He is venerated primarily by
his children, a brutal civilization of werecrocodiles inhabiting the wetlands of the Adder Swamp. Some say that Sebakar dwells at the darkest heart of the swamp, but no reports of the Smiling Death have
surfaced in decades. Priests of Sebakar are known as swamplords.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 13 Aug 2017 15:22:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 16:43:09
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'Proxies' are 'already dead' Chosen (In other words, 'Saints').
I always liked the word 'Proxy', and for awhile I was using it as another 'catch-all' (umbrella) term for 'that level of power between mortals and gods' (which would include demigods, but also things like Celestials and powerful fiends). But then 4e gave me the really cool term 'Exarch' (the one thing 4e did REALLY well was re-name already existing stuff, or taken already-existing names and apply them to new stuff LOL), and that works perfectly as the umbrella-term I was needing. The kind of being that gods - and many mortals - would know is not a god, but ignorant (savage/barbarian/etc.) would not, and may assume they were dealing with a (true) god.
So now when I need a word to call an archfiend who has his own cults, I just say 'Exarch' and I'm good. They're the 'minor leagues' that the majors sometimes take their players from. I would also lump-in all these 'Quasi'-gods, and manifestations as well. One of the rules of demipowers (which carries over to exarchs now) is that they get only ONE avatar, so when you are dealing with them, you are dealing with THEM (not just a 'shadow clone' ).
Hmmmm... did I just establish that Naruto is some sort of uber-Greater God?
Maybe those things would just qualify as 'lesser manifestations' (I hate having to use 'lesser' and 'greater' for them - I wish the original writers of the OE had come up with a better term; heck, even my 'Ubertar' is better). The Egyptians just used 'Pharaoh' that way (to describe a 'living god'), but in our case, thats just too RW. Pharotar? Thats just as bad as 'Ubdertar'. Incarnation? Thats WAAAAY better! Why aren't we using that? Why do you keep it separate from 'manifestations'? (aside from the fact that a RW 'manifestation' can be anything, even something tiny and pretty insignificant).
EDIT:
Oh, and good term to use for people with a 'divine' bloodline is 'Exalted'. So someone who is the descendant of an Incarnation (that procreated with mortals). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2017 16:46:03 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 17:31:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'Proxies' are 'already dead' Chosen (In other words, 'Saints').
I always liked the word 'Proxy', and for awhile I was using it as another 'catch-all' (umbrella) term for 'that level of power between mortals and gods' (which would include demigods, but also things like Celestials and powerful fiends). But then 4e gave me the really cool term 'Exarch' (the one thing 4e did REALLY well was re-name already existing stuff, or taken already-existing names and apply them to new stuff LOL), and that works perfectly as the umbrella-term I was needing. The kind of being that gods - and many mortals - would know is not a god, but ignorant (savage/barbarian/etc.) would not, and may assume they were dealing with a (true) god.
So now when I need a word to call an archfiend who has his own cults, I just say 'Exarch' and I'm good. They're the 'minor leagues' that the majors sometimes take their players from. I would also lump-in all these 'Quasi'-gods, and manifestations as well. One of the rules of demipowers (which carries over to exarchs now) is that they get only ONE avatar, so when you are dealing with them, you are dealing with THEM (not just a 'shadow clone' ).
Hmmmm... did I just establish that Naruto is some sort of uber-Greater God?
Maybe those things would just qualify as 'lesser manifestations' (I hate having to use 'lesser' and 'greater' for them - I wish the original writers of the OE had come up with a better term; heck, even my 'Ubertar' is better). The Egyptians just used 'Pharaoh' that way (to describe a 'living god'), but in our case, thats just too RW. Pharotar? Thats just as bad as 'Ubdertar'. Incarnation? Thats WAAAAY better! Why aren't we using that? Why do you keep it separate from 'manifestations'? (aside from the fact that a RW 'manifestation' can be anything, even something tiny and pretty insignificant).
EDIT:
Oh, and good term to use for people with a 'divine' bloodline is 'Exalted'. So someone who is the descendant of an Incarnation (that procreated with mortals).
Why do I specifically separate incarnation and manifestation? Because they are specific terms in Old Empires. The manifestation could almost be interchanged with the old version of demigod, [b] EXCEPT that even though these beings are bound to Toril, they can in fact have the power levels of a greater deity. [b] I'm betting you already know this answer, but for those that don't, pasting where it came from. It should be noted that in the Old Empires, we were given stats for both a manifestation AND incarnation of the deity.
To understand the gods, it is necessary to understand a number of basic concepts. The true gods of Mulhorand, Egypt, and the other cultures on other worlds that employ this pantheon live in the outer planes.
However, this pantheon prefers (this was later explained with the godwall) to dwell physically at a holy place within this plane. This physical form of the deity is called a manifestation. It is immortal,
very powerful (sometimes of Greater Power status), and is the master
of that deity#146;s affairs on the plane. For most purposes, the manifestation of a deity can be considered to be the deity, with one essential difference. A deity who leaves the plane may pass on the power of his manifestation to another; when the manifestation of Re
(also known as Ra) was slain during the Orcgate Wars, he passed on his power to the manifestation of Horus, who took the name Horus-Re.
<snip>
Another important concept is that of an incarnation. The incarnation is a mortal form of a deity. An incarnation is very powerful, equal to a high-level character, occasionally possessing minor divine powers, but still capable of being slain (Tholaunt, an incarnation of
Anhur, was slain 30 years ago by Valerios of Pyardos, one of the Tharchions of Thay). Incarnations compose most of a pharaoh#146;s royal family, but the eldest is always an incarnation of Horus-Re. An incarnation has the general temperament of a manifestation, but it is not under the direct control of the deity and can be affected by mortal weaknesses and foibles.
Proxy... yes, that's another good additional one to separate living and dead chosen. I don't remember much on them, but they could act as the "hand of the god" in certain situations, etc.. couldn't they?
I like Exalted as well for maybe "potential" incarnations. Because not everyone in a Mulhorandi royal house became an incarnation. Usually maybe 1 or 2 per generation (maybe even less... we're never really given numbers). In like Pathfinder, they had their special rules for leveling epic type characters, and this might "enable" someone to pursue that path.
I would also notate one other thing regarding incarnations and manifestations in Mulhorand. The original listing in Old empires ONLY gave manifestation/incarnation entries for Anhur, Horus-Re, Isis, Nephthys, Osiris, Set, and Thoth. It listed Hathor, Geb, Sebek, and Mask as "other deities but we don't get any stats for them. In addition, neither Mask, Geb, or Sebek are given a noble house name, yet all other male deities that are listed with manifestations/incarnations have a house name.... except Set who is specifically noted as NOT having a house name because he is outcast. This particular wording makes me wonder about whether these "other deities" are in fact prime-bound manifestations pre-ToT. We know Mask isn't. We've found out that Sebek/Sebakar is an "Archfey" and not a manifestation. So, perhaps Geb and Hathor are in fact regular "disembodied gods" pre-ToT, or they are some kind of primordial posing as the deity.
Also, I just recalled this from rereading Powers and Pantheons for post ToT
Effectively the Mulhorandi gods are now governed by the same rules as the Faerunian pantheon. However, each remaining Mulhorandi deity does maintain a connection with its primary former living incarnation that allows that mortal to easily summon an avatar of the deity to whom the incarnation was formerly connected. (the relatively youthful pharaoh of Mulhorand, Horustep III, is taxing the patience of Horus-Re by demanding the constant presence of an avatar of Horus-Re near him).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 19:21:36
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Actually, I think I only read-through Old Empires once, many years ago. I didn't much care for it. Since that time, I have referenced bits of it, here and there, when the need arose, but mostly I've been relying on newer sources.
To be perfectly honest, I was unaware (since that first reading, and I may not have even caught it then) that there was a difference between 'Manifestation' and 'Incarnation' - I've been lumping them together for the past 30 years.
Like I said, you never stop learning stuff about the Realms. 
Thank You.
For the record (and you're probably NOT going to like this), I've been in favor of simplifying certain lore over the years (certainly not all of it), and I would merge the two together at this point, because it all seems overly confusing. Just use 'Incarnation', and say its one thing - the actual god merged with a living, breathing mortal, and get rid of the whole notion there is another 'copy' of him somewhere, that is also not the 'real' god. Because these gods STILL EXIT in other Crystal Spheres, and in Planescape (Great Wheel). Those are just Realms-specific Avatars merged with mortals - what I dubbed 'Ubertars'. In most spheres, when a deity desires to go multispheric, it has to permanently (as 'permanent' as stuff gets in D&D) shear-off some of its power (DvR's) and create a self-aware, independent version of itself. Not a 'copy' - more like Mitosis occurs.
Then it goes on its merry way, and hopefully, in time, it firmly establishes itself on the new world. If not, it withers and dies. No big.
Although I am not sure how that works in regards to the astral - I don't think a multispheric 'copy' (Ubertar? Ur-clone? Ęspect?) would leave-behind a comatose god; we'd wind up with millions of those things (all the failed attempts). Maybe that's where vestiges come from? Orphaned Avatars?
Anyhow, I'm not sure why Ao felt the need to force just the Mulan Gods (note, the K-T gods all came over from 'elsewhere' and were never forced to do this... or were they?  ) to become 'mortal' - its completely arbitrary. My thoughts are they actually preferred it that way (they used that system in Egypt, after all - the Pharoahs were 'living gods'). Also, it may have helped them keep from getting 'eaten' early on, by other Torillian Powers (this is why its so damn hard to start as a new god on a world: Unless you have a powerful 'patron' already there, you'll probably just be killed-off, one way or another, before you get the chance to gain enough power to establish yourself firmly.).
And as I said in another thread today, a lot of times its that same 'patron' that "kills you and takes your stuff" in the end. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2017 19:23:38 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 22:34:05
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Manifestations were mortal in the sense of ahumaniod form that could be killed in battle, no discorperation, but they did not age.
Incarnations age and die like mortals, to be reborn endlessly, until the Manifestation is killed.
But Incarnations can be passed onto another God.
Example Ishtar's Manifestation decided to leave the Realms not long after Enlil left.
Before leaving she passed on her Incarnationd mantle to Isis, who was worshipped as Ishtar in Unther after that.
So Isis had her Manifestation (ageless), her Isis incarnation (Reincarnating), and Ishtar's Incarnation (Reincarnating).
Its weirdly more like Buddhism and Hinduism in some ways, then ancient Egyptian Religion. Its interesting how its simular yet different.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 22:47:09
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Also note that the only Mulhorandi God to really poke her head out often is Bast (Sharess), and even then likely only because she absorbed Felidea and later Zandilar causing a partial personality shift.
The rest were busy getting rid of the Planar Barrier, they only really came of seclusion to keep Mulhorand from being destroyed once Skuld and Mulhorand were founded.
So Mulhorand largely conqueored its empire thanks to the incarnations and military, if the Manifestation had been more invovled, Mulhorand may have been able to conqueor most of the Realms.
Basts manifestation (with help from merging with Zandilar and Felidea) wad able to drive off the drow armies of Lloth from the Yeirwood with help from the locals. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 23:01:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, I think I only read-through Old Empires once, many years ago. I didn't much care for it. Since that time, I have referenced bits of it, here and there, when the need arose, but mostly I've been relying on newer sources.
To be perfectly honest, I was unaware (since that first reading, and I may not have even caught it then) that there was a difference between 'Manifestation' and 'Incarnation' - I've been lumping them together for the past 30 years.
Like I said, you never stop learning stuff about the Realms.
Thank You.
For the record (and you're probably NOT going to like this), I've been in favor of simplifying certain lore over the years (certainly not all of it), and I would merge the two together at this point, because it all seems overly confusing. Just use 'Incarnation', and say its one thing - the actual god merged with a living, breathing mortal, and get rid of the whole notion there is another 'copy' of him somewhere, that is also not the 'real' god. Because these gods STILL EXIT in other Crystal Spheres, and in Planescape (Great Wheel). Those are just Realms-specific Avatars merged with mortals - what I dubbed 'Ubertars'. In most spheres, when a deity desires to go multispheric, it has to permanently (as 'permanent' as stuff gets in D&D) shear-off some of its power (DvR's) and create a self-aware, independent version of itself. Not a 'copy' - more like Mitosis occurs.
Then it goes on its merry way, and hopefully, in time, it firmly establishes itself on the new world. If not, it withers and dies. No big.
Although I am not sure how that works in regards to the astral - I don't think a multispheric 'copy' (Ubertar? Ur-clone? Ęspect?) would leave-behind a comatose god; we'd wind up with millions of those things (all the failed attempts). Maybe that's where vestiges come from? Orphaned Avatars?
Anyhow, I'm not sure why Ao felt the need to force just the Mulan Gods (note, the K-T gods all came over from 'elsewhere' and were never forced to do this... or were they? ) to become 'mortal' - its completely arbitrary. My thoughts are they actually preferred it that way (they used that system in Egypt, after all - the Pharoahs were 'living gods'). Also, it may have helped them keep from getting 'eaten' early on, by other Torillian Powers (this is why its so damn hard to start as a new god on a world: Unless you have a powerful 'patron' already there, you'll probably just be killed-off, one way or another, before you get the chance to gain enough power to establish yourself firmly.).
And as I said in another thread today, a lot of times its that same 'patron' that "kills you and takes your stuff" in the end.
Yeah, your right, I don't like combining them. With this setup, you can have god-kings (i.e. descendants who just "have power" invested in them), but at the same time the deity can't exert their will over them. The deity wants them, because it encourages worshippers without costing near as much as an avatar, plus it skirts things that may just allow other gods to go "well, he did this, I can now meddle as well".
By the way, I would probably recommend a ruling to only be able to make incarnations IF you are a manifestation (and thus, once the Mulhorandi gods became disembodied, they couldn't make any new ones but were allowed to maintain contact with one that they had already made.... so that the next generation wouldn't have anymore incarnations). Does it make the game more complex? Yes, but sometimes complex allows for more interesting interactions.
Oh, and this could ALSO make the statement in the SCAG about the god-kings being weaker than ever make absolute since.... if Horustep III say were no longer the Pharaoh in 1385 DR (he would have been 38, but Set's followers or someone else MAY have killed him... we know they wanted to assassinate him in 1358 and they had assassinated the previous Pharaoh). Essentially, if Horustep III somehow got assassinated, then the next Pharaoh would not have been an incarnation... he would have been a regular human.
Hmmm, and IF the transferring of the Palace of the Purple Emperor did "displace" Skuld and maybe force the current Pharaoh (Horustep III) into Abeir, then when the High Imaskari show up, the current Pharaoh would have been one of his children, barely an adult (late teens, early 20's), with none of the incarnation powers, and only the Pharaoh for literally days. Or if things happened a little differently, maybe Horustep III was killed as I said above by another faction, and the new Pharaoh had only been on the throne a few months or maybe a couple years. I wouldn't be surprised if some follower of old Unther killed Pharaoh Horustep III just out of sheer hate... hell, having Lord Shuruppak "the Reaper" who was Gilgeam's chosen before said god's death... and who was fricking powerful and insane and out killing all of "Unther's Enemies". Yeah, I'm really liking that idea what with Shuruppak being a level 30 character in the early 1370's... so in say 1385 maybe he even added a level or 3 more. I can picture it, Shuruppak taking on both Horsutep III and an avatar of Horus-Re, killing the god king and somehow destroying his soul too, and then either escaping or killing the avatar too or dying at the hands of the avatar |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 23:19:35
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Oooooo.... the kewl to this may be driving me here .... but
What if the "Son of Victory" that is this new "Gilgeam" isn't an actual son and is actually his former chosen Shuruppak "the reaper". The man was supposed to be flipping nuts, infatuated with restoring Unther... he was mainly a fighter so not a strong spellcaster (he had 7 levels of wizard, 20 levels of fighter, and 3 of rogue in the epic level handbook). I could see it if he were transferred to Abeir, and perhaps having been a former chosen, maybe he is still immortal or aging slowly. He may even be invested with some of Gilgeam's divine power. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 00:18:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The rest were busy getting rid of the Planar Barrier, they only really came of seclusion to keep Mulhorand from being destroyed once Skuld and Mulhorand were founded.
So Mulhorand largely conqueored its empire thanks to the incarnations and military, if the Manifestation had been more invovled, Mulhorand may have been able to conqueor most of the Realms.
Yes, this is exactly the reason that I asked the question about whether we are dealing with incarnations or manifestations. Like Markus said people have used them interchangeably for a long time, but canonically they are very different for all the reasons that Sleyvas and yourself have pointed out.
Unlike the past, if we are dealing with manifestations, they are not working to rid themselves of the Gods Wall. The Gods Wall does not exist. They are apparently choosing to exist in the Realms as manifestations--if they are indeed manifestations. This would be an insane power level for the Mulhorandi to have--they would not have any serious rivals in the region.
For that reason, I would argue that we should assume that we are dealing with incarnations rather than manifestations. The deities are not returning as manifestations--except perhaps Gilgeam (though that story is more complicated)--the deities are essentially making incarnations which would be roughly on par with deific Chosen. They might involve aspects of both, and it might not work exactly as it did in the past... I am sure something can be worked out. It would be a mistake to give Mulhorand super weapons that they could use to conquer everyone around them rather easily.  |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 17:06:27
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Mulhorand crushed Imaskar in no time flat, so so brutally and quickly that it was already too late for the Dragonborn of Tymanther reinforcements.
Still Mulhorand is caught between the Dragon Princes on one Side in Morgholm and Sempar, and on the other Unther with its own Godking who is allies with Grazzt.
Although if the Mulhorand Gods started running amok other Gods will intervene like the Orc Pantheon did during the Orcgate Wars. |
Edited by - Gyor on 14 Aug 2017 18:05:19 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 19:01:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The rest were busy getting rid of the Planar Barrier, they only really came of seclusion to keep Mulhorand from being destroyed once Skuld and Mulhorand were founded.
So Mulhorand largely conqueored its empire thanks to the incarnations and military, if the Manifestation had been more invovled, Mulhorand may have been able to conqueor most of the Realms.
Yes, this is exactly the reason that I asked the question about whether we are dealing with incarnations or manifestations. Like Markus said people have used them interchangeably for a long time, but canonically they are very different for all the reasons that Sleyvas and yourself have pointed out.
Unlike the past, if we are dealing with manifestations, they are not working to rid themselves of the Gods Wall. The Gods Wall does not exist. They are apparently choosing to exist in the Realms as manifestations--if they are indeed manifestations. This would be an insane power level for the Mulhorandi to have--they would not have any serious rivals in the region.
For that reason, I would argue that we should assume that we are dealing with incarnations rather than manifestations. The deities are not returning as manifestations--except perhaps Gilgeam (though that story is more complicated)--the deities are essentially making incarnations which would be roughly on par with deific Chosen. They might involve aspects of both, and it might not work exactly as it did in the past... I am sure something can be worked out. It would be a mistake to give Mulhorand super weapons that they could use to conquer everyone around them rather easily.
I wouldn't be opposed to there being both incarnations and manifestations again. The caveat would have to be though that Ao forces manifestations to NOT act against mortals directly and they must try to rule their people through incarnations. This would effectively tie their hands. In the case of the overthrow of the Imaskari empire, Ao may have allowed the godly interaction against mortals simply because the Imaskari were getting so dangerous that they were messing with his god barrier... they were messing with Pandorym... essentially, in Ao's view the Imaskari were possibly becoming a threat to the world itself.
Now, why would these gods choose to stay in mortal form? That's a good question, and maybe it does come down to incarnations? Maybe they can make more incarnations by giving up the power needed to be a disembodied god. So, in order to protect their people, they create new god-kings from their descendants to protect their empire... and then hide away in their pyramids and hope no one comes to kill them.. Still, for the most part, it would be the god-kings and not the manifestations that parties would interact with.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 19:06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Mulhorand crushed Imaskar in no time flat, so so brutally and quickly that it was already too late for the Dragonborn of Tymanther reinforcements.
Still Mulhorand is caught between the Dragon Princes on one Side in Morgholm and Sempar, and on the other Unther with its own Godking who is allies with Grazzt.
Although if the Mulhorand Gods started running amok other Gods will intervene like the Orc Pantheon did during the Orcgate Wars.
One thing to bear in mind with High Imaskar is population. I think even its capital city only had like 18,000 people. Gheldaneth, which was pretty much mostly Mulan outnumbered this amount. Then if tens of thousands of Mulhorandi return from Abeir, it wouldn't be hard to overwhelm Skyclave if they could find a way to reach it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 20:44:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The rest were busy getting rid of the Planar Barrier, they only really came of seclusion to keep Mulhorand from being destroyed once Skuld and Mulhorand were founded.
So Mulhorand largely conqueored its empire thanks to the incarnations and military, if the Manifestation had been more invovled, Mulhorand may have been able to conqueor most of the Realms.
Yes, this is exactly the reason that I asked the question about whether we are dealing with incarnations or manifestations. Like Markus said people have used them interchangeably for a long time, but canonically they are very different for all the reasons that Sleyvas and yourself have pointed out.
Unlike the past, if we are dealing with manifestations, they are not working to rid themselves of the Gods Wall. The Gods Wall does not exist. They are apparently choosing to exist in the Realms as manifestations--if they are indeed manifestations. This would be an insane power level for the Mulhorandi to have--they would not have any serious rivals in the region.
For that reason, I would argue that we should assume that we are dealing with incarnations rather than manifestations. The deities are not returning as manifestations--except perhaps Gilgeam (though that story is more complicated)--the deities are essentially making incarnations which would be roughly on par with deific Chosen. They might involve aspects of both, and it might not work exactly as it did in the past... I am sure something can be worked out. It would be a mistake to give Mulhorand super weapons that they could use to conquer everyone around them rather easily.
This struck a chord in my head - shouldn't we just say that 'Incarnations' are just another variety of Chosen (Exarch) at this point? Basically, a Chosen with less free will (perhaps a 'conjoined' personality', or the god is treating the mortal as a puppet, pulling the strings, or the god is just an irritating 'voice' in the Incarnation's head, telling it what to do all the time, but they can ignore if they chose to?). For that last one, anyone familiar with old DC comics and Firestorm - like that (his old professor was like his 'conscience' inside his head). So basically a Chosen where the god is much more 'hands on'.
As for the Manifestations, I agree they should be gone as of 5e. And not even because they've always made the whole thing more convoluted than it needed to be, but just because without the Godwall, there is absolutely no reason for that to be a thing anymore. Just create another Divine Realm on The Great Tree (or leave them where they belong in The Great Wheel) and call it 'The Hall of Scarabs' or some such (mostly, ya know, because 'The Great Pyramid' is taken LOL).
And I know I am sounding like a broken record, but the Old Empires needs a conjoined Pantheon, for no other reason than to provide a united front against the larger, stronger Faerūnian one. There could still be 'national' deities, like Glgeam, but the majority of them should be shared. And a death god - they need their own damn death god (unless we just steal Kelemvor and say they are calling him Anubis... after all, with all these Faerunian death-gods, he no longer serves a purpose anymore). Maybe given him a Mulanish alias, like Kelam-Bis. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Aug 2017 21:08:49 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 21:20:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Mulhorand crushed Imaskar in no time flat, so so brutally and quickly that it was already too late for the Dragonborn of Tymanther reinforcements.
In fact, there were no dragonborn reinforcements. Dragonborn deliberately cut diplomatic relationships with High Imaskar when Mulhorand rebelled. This is revealed in Ashes of the Tyrant (novel).
According to Uadjit (the Tymantheran ambassador in High Imaskar), this was just political savvyness: they wanted to know if Mulhorand will be a better neighbor than High Imaskar, but Uadjit also said that there is the possibility that some dragonborn elders haven't forgotten that High Imaskar promised military aid during the conflict between Tymanther and Chessenta (Brotherhood of the Griffon novels) and they failed to uphold that promise. So, Tymanther returned in kind when High Imaskar needed them most.
Ashes of the Tyrant also implies that the whole Mulhorandi rebellion lasted at least a few months (it was already happening when the plots of Ashes of the Tyrant and The Devil You Know started and ended, and the novel doesn't say when it ended. And that plot lasted a month). So, the rebellion wasn't as one sided as you are implying. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Aug 2017 21:29:11 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2017 : 00:21:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The rest were busy getting rid of the Planar Barrier, they only really came of seclusion to keep Mulhorand from being destroyed once Skuld and Mulhorand were founded.
So Mulhorand largely conqueored its empire thanks to the incarnations and military, if the Manifestation had been more invovled, Mulhorand may have been able to conqueor most of the Realms.
Yes, this is exactly the reason that I asked the question about whether we are dealing with incarnations or manifestations. Like Markus said people have used them interchangeably for a long time, but canonically they are very different for all the reasons that Sleyvas and yourself have pointed out.
Unlike the past, if we are dealing with manifestations, they are not working to rid themselves of the Gods Wall. The Gods Wall does not exist. They are apparently choosing to exist in the Realms as manifestations--if they are indeed manifestations. This would be an insane power level for the Mulhorandi to have--they would not have any serious rivals in the region.
For that reason, I would argue that we should assume that we are dealing with incarnations rather than manifestations. The deities are not returning as manifestations--except perhaps Gilgeam (though that story is more complicated)--the deities are essentially making incarnations which would be roughly on par with deific Chosen. They might involve aspects of both, and it might not work exactly as it did in the past... I am sure something can be worked out. It would be a mistake to give Mulhorand super weapons that they could use to conquer everyone around them rather easily.
This struck a chord in my head - shouldn't we just say that 'Incarnations' are just another variety of Chosen (Exarch) at this point? Basically, a Chosen with less free will (perhaps a 'conjoined' personality', or the god is treating the mortal as a puppet, pulling the strings, or the god is just an irritating 'voice' in the Incarnation's head, telling it what to do all the time, but they can ignore if they chose to?). For that last one, anyone familiar with old DC comics and Firestorm - like that (his old professor was like his 'conscience' inside his head). So basically a Chosen where the god is much more 'hands on'.
As for the Manifestations, I agree they should be gone as of 5e. And not even because they've always made the whole thing more convoluted than it needed to be, but just because without the Godwall, there is absolutely no reason for that to be a thing anymore. Just create another Divine Realm on The Great Tree (or leave them where they belong in The Great Wheel) and call it 'The Hall of Scarabs' or some such (mostly, ya know, because 'The Great Pyramid' is taken LOL).
And I know I am sounding like a broken record, but the Old Empires needs a conjoined Pantheon, for no other reason than to provide a united front against the larger, stronger Faerūnian one. There could still be 'national' deities, like Glgeam, but the majority of them should be shared. And a death god - they need their own damn death god (unless we just steal Kelemvor and say they are calling him Anubis... after all, with all these Faerunian death-gods, he no longer serves a purpose anymore). Maybe given him a Mulanish alias, like Kelam-Bis.
Like I said in the other thread. They have a death god. Osiris, the judge of the dead. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2017 : 02:15:05
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We can always give them the Raven Queen. 
BTW, I'm thinking in bringing Kuyutha to the Realms as well, but he is a little bit tricky. In the Nentir Vale mythos, he is supposedly the last paladin of the dragonborn empire of Arkhosia, who gathered and protected the last clans of that empire and Bahamut rewarded him by elevating him to exarch (demigod). So, while his inclusion will not upset the status quo of the Realms (he is just another demigod), I'm wondering how to bring him...
I'm debating whether to use the Planescape solution (he came from the Nentir Vale world), or giving him a Realmsian spin... though, seeign the history of dragonborns in the Realms, this will more... not difficult, but hardest at least.
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Aug 2017 02:16:08 |
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Post-Sundering Old Empires... and the God-kings.
