Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Post-Sundering Old Empires... and the God-kings.
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 15

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  23:45:51  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When the Imaskari Empire extended far beyond the core area.

So pushing outwards would have left the Mulan fighting the remenants of Imaskari Empire every step of the way,along witj Turami tribes, Dupari tribes, various monsters.

Plus its not easy to move hundreds of thousands of people, old, young, and so on especially while under attack.

And Skuld might not be the first Mulan city, its just that the first ones were abaddoned when the Plains of Purple Dust claimed them.
Go to Top of Page

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2017 :  00:17:59  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

When the Imaskari Empire extended far beyond the core area.

So pushing outwards would have left the Mulan fighting the remenants of Imaskari Empire every step of the way,along witj Turami tribes, Dupari tribes, various monsters.

Plus its not easy to move hundreds of thousands of people, old, young, and so on especially while under attack.

And Skuld might not be the first Mulan city, its just that the first ones were abaddoned when the Plains of Purple Dust claimed them.


That's really good as well. The Mulans were fighting survivor states and Imaskari warlords for centuries, along with the "barbarians" of the area. If the Plains of Purple Dust grew over time, then the first settlements they established--likely liberated Imaskari settlements--would have had to be abandoned. This would have precipitated their movement westward toward the Alamber Sea.

That feels realistic. Three-hundred years is a reasonable amount of time for all of that to play out.
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2017 :  07:01:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The way I feel it 'must have gone' is that there was a large source of water (other than the magically-created River Athis from DoD). I'm picturing a decent sized lake in the center of the Plains of Purple Dust, with the capital at that location, and a fairly involved river-system. Then the Mulan gods show up and do some sort of magic akin to The dark Disaster (Miyeritar) or the Rain of Colorless Fire (and I am still thinking the Imaskari caused that by manipulating the Baklunish) from Greyhawk. Whatever they did (it may have just been 'magical fallout' from the titanic battle), the lake and river system were obliterated, along with a fair amount of Surrounding area (IIRC, there should be a 'sea of glass' somewhere there where the sand was liquified).

So you have that initial 'ground zero', like a 100-megaton nuke going off, and then you have everything else slowly dying-back over time because of the lack of fresh water in the Raurin basin (you've got several mountain ranges surrounding it that block sea-storms and moisture). The Quoya was also fertile, or at least, habitable, up to about 1100 years ago, but I'm not sure if that is related (it would have been fertile during the third kingdom of Imaskar period {Anok-=Imaskar}, which was also the first Shou Empire). Even the Taan (Taanga) was more fertile back then (and some of this might be the fault of other powerful, weather-altering magics, most especially those in nearby Thay).

So it seems it was a complex ecosystem, that was thrown completely out-of-wack, and eventually the desert grew from its original location (the PoPD) to where several 'survivor states' had continued to exist in the souther Raurin for several centuries (like Solon & Bakar). Eventually, all the closest ('core') Imaskari states would have fallen, driving the population - both slave and Imaskari alike - further out from the center. The Anoque (a interloper-race - the K-T material states that the shou were lead to Toril from somewhere else) moved into the Kara-Tur region, conquering the indigenous Haltai (Asian-like) peoples (the forbears of the Tuigan/Taangan that migrated into the Taan region). Thus, the third empire of Imaskar was also the first empire of Shou Lung (Shou history doesn't even make mention of Imaskar, at all).

The Raumvari (Gur peoples) became independent and migrated further north and west, but some stayed and eventually founded the Raumathar Empire. Others moved west into Rashemen and Narfell, eventually forming the Empire of Narfell (and settling distant Sossal). The slaves mostly fled west. Thazalhar was an early state that didn't last (as the wastes became more barren, so too did Thazalhar). I am actually picturing those folk to be of Turami descent (not everyone the Imaskari enslaved would have been off-worlders). Bhaluin may have been a realm, a citystate, or the name of both the realm and the main city. The island portion of it lasted for a long time, and I think they may have controlled that strip of land between the two rivers, between Murghôm & Semphar (which is still claimed - and fought-over, by both).

Speaking of which, Semphar is probably the closest 'living' thing we have to ancient Imaskar in culture and ethnicity (Murghôm would have definitely been a mixture). What few settlements they had to the south (Shining Waters) stayed put and eventually became nations of their own. Some few powerful (and probably evil) sorcerers fled further south into hidden strongholds in the Utter East. The mountain nation of Khati split into Ra-Khati and Khazari (along with Guge and the Quoya/Taanga region, where Tsharoon eventually came to be). But the majority of the slaves of the core kingdom (Nemrut), especially the poor, manual laborers, fled west, overrunning and displacing the native Turami. That would have fallen immediately, giving us an initial date for the start of the 'Mulan Exodus'. As time marched on (about three centuries), the survivor-states of Bakar, Raurin, Solon, and Limia all collapsed as the desert grew (see Desert of Desolation), causing even more migrations west. Rural farm communities grew into towns, and then cities, and then one day there were empires.

And it all started with a disrupted river-system.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jul 2017 07:07:45
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7437 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2017 :  13:14:25  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay



In the south, all we had were the Ilythiir, and they got wiped-out (and the rest were driven underground). Maybe there is some 'long lost library of the Drow' hidden somewhere in the Shaar - who knows? We sure don't, so anything that happened before the Old Empires (and Calimshan, and Halruaa later on) goes unrecorded.



Yeah, there is a "long lost library of the drow". Its in the city formerly known as Peleverai (which humans inhabited, but didn't know who the original makers were). Its behind this super secret special secret "only opens to those with drow blood" door that only the Crintri that happened upon it following the spellplague know about. I'm surprised you didn't know about it, since I made it up all of 2 minutes ago.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7437 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2017 :  13:19:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm not sure there is any other way I can explain it.

I'm still not seeing any problem. The lack of information can't really make an inconsistency, only inconsistent information can.

No-one - NOT EVEN A GOD - snaps its fingers and *Instant Empire*. There had to have been a 'warlords period' - thats just how it works. Plus, as I've listed above, there were probably around two dozen major survivor-states. All of that had to be consolidated into the empires we recognize.

People were living in - and colonizing - North America three hundred years before there was a 'United States'. YES, the events leading up to all that are completely different, but some of it is probably the same. Maybe each god had his own territory, and then someone (Ra?) decided they should consolidate everything under one empire (Mulhorand). The Meso-deities saw what was happening and banned together so it wouldn't happen to them (hence, Unther).

If you think thats bad, try making the Chondath/Chessenta history consistent - YOU CAN'T. The history of each conflicts with the history of the other.



Throw together as well that the Imaskari survivor states were not necessarily physically connected. Much like this United Tharchs of Toril that I'm discussing, the Imaskari had small settlements all throughout the east and Hordelands and probably portions of Kara-Tur that were connected via portal. You could go from one to the other easily by magic... until someone tears down the portals connecting them (which I imagine is exactly what the god kings would have done). Given that most of these outlying survivor states probably all had connections to the central Imaskari state, but maybe NOT to each other, this could have effectively localized a lot of these survivor states. They could have easily lived on with little to no damage to them caused by the god kings themselves (for instance, Raumathar was probably one such, as probably was Anok-Imaskar).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7437 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2017 :  13:35:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The way I feel it 'must have gone' is that there was a large source of water (other than the magically-created River Athis from DoD). I'm picturing a decent sized lake in the center of the Plains of Purple Dust, with the capital at that location, and a fairly involved river-system. Then the Mulan gods show up and do some sort of magic akin to The dark Disaster (Miyeritar) or the Rain of Colorless Fire (and I am still thinking the Imaskari caused that by manipulating the Baklunish) from Greyhawk. Whatever they did (it may have just been 'magical fallout' from the titanic battle), the lake and river system were obliterated, along with a fair amount of Surrounding area (IIRC, there should be a 'sea of glass' somewhere there where the sand was liquified).




Hmmmm, yeah, maybe THIS could be how Thayd became a "Suel Lich". Similar circumstances. Just a different group. We'd just need to rename the type, and maybe even make some differences to make it not exactly the same. Maybe it even took him several centuries to "reform" his spirit enough that he could take a human body, and maybe he can use magic jar unlike standard Suel Liches just in case there's no body available.


Oh, and your statement about it "all starting with a disrupted river system"..... Star of Cursrah might just entertain you. I won't say its great or high fiction, but it was interesting with a hindsight of 3 editions later perspective.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2017 :  17:31:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Sleyvas - its like how we had named spells from Greyhawk, that we used in every world. Its just a name; on Toril maybe they are called 'ghost Lich'.

A long time ago I had it where the Baklunish were really Imaskari (mixed with locals) that had come through Gates and setup colonies/enclaves (with the eventual thought of gathering more slaves - you don't think Earth was the only world they did this, do you?) The Baklunish culture is also very similar to Persian, very much like Imaskar, so it was a good fit. A thousand or so years later the Netherese start playing with Spelljammers, and find Greyspace, and Oerth. They do the same thing the Imaskari did with another large group of primitive people - the Suel. I'm not saying both groups were in Greyhawk en masse, but rather, were like the 'overseers'. The way much of Latin America was conquered/settled, or British India (or Africa), or how the movie (and later TV shows) Stargate have the interaction between humans and the Goa'uld -a ruling class of 'outsiders', and then the natives would be like a slave/servant class. Of course, there'd always be intermixing, especially among the Baklunish and Imaskari, who had way more time to do so (so the Baklunish race would be a Greyhawk version of our Mulan). Unlike on Toril, where the two never bothered with each other, on Oerth (and maybe even other worlds - they may have been fighting something similar to Earth's 'Cold War', in small, '3rd world' theaters) the two groups eventually came to conflict... and the rest is history (GH history).

But then, for the past few years, I swapped them (cultures be damned), because I needed Tan Chin to be a Suel Lich, and needed to say he had spent some time among the Sueloise. Also, I wanted to connect the Red Wizards (Thayd!) to the Scarlet Brotherhood (not directly - more like 'both grew out of a common ancestor'), who are racist (Nazi) Suel. But recently, I switched back to my original thoughts. There is no need to screw-up the cultures to get things to work the way I want - maybe the Suel-Netherese worked with the Imaskari-Baklunish for a time, before some incident set the wheels of war into motion (it may have been the destruction of Imaskar back home - the timing would be near-perfect). They may have developed the 'ghost Lich' together, or one may have just stolen it from the other (spies are always stealing 'weapon tech' from each other).

As for the Red Wizards/Scarlet Brotherhood connection, it could be as simple as some Mulan slaves - brought with them to Oerth to serve their Imaskari masters - had their own clandestine group working toward freedom - the Crimson Tide (called that because they went through areas killing-off all Imaskar overlords, like a 'wave of bloody destruction'). Think India's Khali cults, and the Thuggees. Then, since we have now established the Mulan had these freedom-fighter cells hidden among them (on both worlds), we can see how both groups eventually turned into the two groups we know today - they went in different directions after the wars and destruction re-separated the two worlds for a time. This allows us to place one group among Imaskar's enemies, so there is no need to confuse the cultures.

And the reason why - other than I've always wanted it to be the way I first pictured it - is that in the past few days, researching the Old Empires and Imaskar, I had a new idea. After the Godwar with the Pharonics, many Imaskari fled to avoid getting massacred themselves. The people of Bakar were one such group (part of the reason why Bakar died-off eventually was because of a mass-exodus). The arrivals were called Raenei's Bakari, because the Gate they were using could only function on the full moon. Another name for Raenei (the moon) is Luna, and in Imaskari the nickname translated to Bakar-Luna, which eventually just became 'Baklûn', and the people, Baklunish.


Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week. Try the veal, and don't forget to tip you waitress.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 Jul 2017 17:47:33
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2017 :  12:05:18  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was thinking about how Halruaan wizardary could survive the lack of a weave in abier and it dawned on me if Halruaa created a series of specially designed Mythallars, that could act as a weave substitute, as well as the regular benifits of mythallars could work. 

I mean the Halruaa was founded by ex Netherese, so why wouldn't they have a mythallar system.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31518 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2017 :  15:17:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I mean the Halruaa was founded by ex Netherese, so why wouldn't they have a mythallar system.



Because it was founded after Netheril fell, and thus they couldn't make new mythallars.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4119 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2017 :  15:26:40  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Raumark led his house away from Netheril becausr he saw the doom of netheril at the hands of the phaerrimm. He feared they would follow him and his people so fled as far south as they could go.

A phaerimm looking for netherese would be tracking potent magic that only netherese had, thats a mythallar. It made sense for Raumark to leave the mythallars behind and after the fall of netheril he could no longer create them.

Raumark was the only archmage in that group heading south. He alone knew how to make mythallars. All other wizards with him were his students but i doubt he taught them all his secrets (which im sure he learned from ioulaum himself). He was a wise man so i think he recognised what caused netherils fall and meant to not repeat those mistakes (including mythallars)

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4119 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2017 :  15:28:42  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But then again maybe he did take one or two mythallars (small ones) with him in secret and lefy them deactivated for centuries until he was sure the phaerrimm werent coming for him.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2017 :  14:18:12  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You don't just discard knowledge of how to make, Mythallars, unless the, Archmage was, fool. Netheril didn't fall because Mythallara, but because it was lead by fools like Karus.

If the Halruaans had centuries to study how to make Mythallars, and the foreknowledge of the, spellplague, I think a, specialized form of new Mythallar makes sense.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31518 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2017 :  14:42:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Grand History of the Realms has Halruaa founded *after* the fall of Netheril. Therefore, there were no mythallars to take, and the spell to create them no longer functioned.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4119 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2017 :  14:49:53  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Netheril was not a place where knowledge was freely shared. It was a highly competitive magocracy where knowledge was horded to give one an advantage over your rivals (which was every other mage of same or lower rank).

Everyone wanted to coveted rank of archmage because to be one was to be king of your own little kingdom.

In order to be archmage you had to have an enclave. And in order to get that you either had to build a powerful mythallar, steal an enclave, or inherit one.

Ioulaun first discovered how to make mythallara but he didnt give that knowledge to everyone he met. Otherwise over the 3000 years left to netheril there would be hundreds of thousands of enclaves. Instead he helped those who were capable of making an enclave discover how to do so (with the odd bit of advice and whatever resources they needed).

Raumark knew how to build an enclave and mythallars but he did not necessarily teach it to his apprentices. He may not have taught it to anyone in his service.


And the mythallars almost certainly contributed to netherila downfall. The abundance of cheap magic mythallar items made the netherese rich and lazy, and cruel, and avaricious as they lived in luxury and sought out ever more exotic and depraved pleasures.
The phaerimm neutralised the mythallars (with magic drain) and the netherese could barely exist without their mythallar magic items to get them dressed and makr their food and wash them etc. They certainly couldnt defend themselves.

Thats why raumark fled in skyships (permanent non mythallar magic items) because he foresaw the danger of being self reliant on cheap temporary magic.

There were lots of other causes for netherils downfall but mythallars had a significant part to play.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1112 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2017 :  17:47:42  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, literally Halruaa was wizardless while in Abeir (or had minor cabals of just a few mages that we have to try to explain how were able to cast magic) . If there are sorcerers in Halruaa, they became the master race in those 100 years, with a new class of artificers rising in ranks, until *poof*, we are back on Toril.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2017 :  17:50:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to have to strongly disagree with your logic there, Wooly. Mythallars didn't even exist until someone created one, so just because you may not be able to do something at the moment doesn't mean you won't be able to do it within the next 1700 years.

The Elves created Elven High-Magic (Divinely-assisted) Mythals. Then they couldn't anymore. Years and years later they started creating Arcane Mythals, which didn't require divine assistance, and appear to have used Epic Magic instead (I really wish it was named something other than 'epic' - RW thats fine, but there really should be an in-game term, and 'epic' just doesn't work for that). In fact, how do we know that they weren't forced to do that for precisely the same reason - magic changed after Netheril's fall (unless someone wants to slap me with some dates showing an Arcane Mythal was created before the fall, but from what I know, Myth Drannor was the first of those).

Also, there is tons and tons of example of related magics, from person-specific 'Spell Mantles' to the drow 'Spell Webs'. Having 'hanging spells' loaded into an area is just a logical progression in a magical society. I really can't see the Halruaans just completely giving up on Mythalar tech. Flying cities, HELL YEAH, but the basic premise of the Mythalars was sound.

If they had just a few of those in-place, in their larger settlements, it would explain how they managed to function in Abeir. In fact, quasi-magical devices might be the perfect thing for Abeir. The whole reason why I said "strongly disagree" is the fact they DID survive, and I don't think a group of highly-magical people - ones who depended on magic for EVERYTHING (even the simplest mundane tasks - "so sayeth Ed") - would have survived very long at all on a hostile world without their magic. It would be like dumping a modern city-dweller into the amazon jungle without any survival training or gear -they just wouldn't know what to do to live. Heck, Halruaa didn't even have roads, that's how heavily they depended on magic for everything! Even Eberron has roads.

So, if the Halruaans did indeed survive because they went to Abeir (where is that from, BTW? I don't really like it, just because of this line of reasoning), then they would have had to have some method of surviving. Either 'they did manage to take some of their magic with them', or they had help. Now, we could go with the 'they had help' (a dragon?), but that would also have to mean their magical traditions have changed drastically to account for that, and then upon returning to Toril, none of the newer casters would know how to work Torillian magic. It becomes a can-of-worms.

So much simpler to say they had some form of 'magical field effect' around their more important settlements, whether you want to call them Mythalars or not.

EDIT:
If you really hate using the word 'Mythalar' for something that's just a wee bit different, we could always go with those Spellcruxes from the College of Wizardry. That was a 2e product (a very good one, I might add), but there was a 3e version in one of the spatts, IIRC.

Aside: If everyone started using your Spellcrux, would it be a Horcrux?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Aug 2017 18:02:11
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2017 :  18:12:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lets call them 'Dweomerfields' for now.

I can see them being a bit more like Elven Mythals, post-Netheril. In fact, because of what happened in Nethril, I can see a very strong movement to create contingencies in case of 'magical cataclysm'. Maybe it just happens quietly and automatically, or maybe it has those red flashing lights everywhere when 'apocalypse' breaks out ("Tell the archmage we have a situation! We need to go to Defcon 1!"); who knows? But I can see these 'field effects' crackling to life around the important settlements, sealing-off the outside, and providing Air & Water (and there'd probably be some protocols for food, for prolonged 'quarantines'). They'd probably also block being with very strong 'magical auras' (definitely outsiders, and maybe even dragons, etc).

Any civilization that has survived one cataclysm would definitely have been prepared for the next one. On Toril its not an 'if', its a 'when' (because those ebil 'Mages who dwelleth upon the Coast' love blowing crap up).


EDIT:
And they'd need their own power-sources, because part of the contingency would be to allow for a 'no Weave' situation (after all, that's PRECISELY what happened to them the last time). It would be fun to come up with different ones for each surviving settlement, to give each one its own unique flavor. Maybe a powerful trapped fiend, or a Genie, or something less cerebral, like a node of some kind (Elemental, Faerzress, etc). Or an artifact, like the Spellcrux I mentioned above (They had Spelljamming tech, so they are probably aware of Artifurnace Helms, which uses an artifact to power something it was never meant to do). Like I said, we could have a lot of fun with it. Maybe one even had a chunk of primordial to power their's... wouldn't that be neat when they went to Abeir?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Aug 2017 18:19:57
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7437 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2017 :  18:28:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On Halruaa's formation after the fall of Netheril. I have always assumed that there were some unwritten things in history that maybe should start getting written. For instance, Netheril had their enclaves, but the enclaves could move. We had Larloch over in Vaasa/Damara area with his enclave of Jiksidur. We also had an enclave of doubloon that "disappeared" both literally and figuratively (i.e. it could turn invisible, but also they lost track of it).

So, why did the Netherese go all the way down to the bottom edge of the continent from the top? Probably because they had an enclave down there already. I'd even go so far as to say they probably had some ground communities built for food production, probably along the coast. Given that their flying ships CAN go on water as well, I would also half wonder if they didn't maybe have their enclave floating out above the water.

As a result of all of these admitted assumptions, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a few mythallars down there. Given their secrecy in Halruaa, it would be easy to explain why people don't know about them, and maybe the use of the mythallars are limited to defense purposes.... or maybe only the members of the ruling council have access to use them.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1112 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2017 :  18:34:46  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So, if the Halruaans did indeed survive because they went to Abeir (where is that from, BTW? I don't really like it, just because of this line of reasoning)


Is from the SCAG, that is a can of worms on its own right. They guy who wrote that book, while it seems knowledgeable in Realmslore from the pre-4e eras, totally disregarded 4e lore; and for what it seems, is because he didn't knew about it instead of "grognardism"* (the first thing to comes to my mind is that they used the Nentir Vale creation myths for the dragonborn... and FR dragonborn had a different origin story than those of the Nentir Vale)**.

So, while he said that Halruaan wizards survived in Abeir, I really doubt the guy who wrote the SCAG was even aware that in Abeir, magic worked differently.

I guess that we need to figure out how those Halruaan wizards thrived on our own.



*Though, I'm pretty sure WotC allowed this to lure grognards away from Path--I mean, the competition.

**I know this because I asked Erin why Abeiran dragonborn had the same origin myths than Arkhosian dragonborn in the SCAG, and she was as confused as me...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 04 Aug 2017 18:36:27
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2017 :  19:07:23  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Halruaan Mythallars wouldn't have to be the same as the old style Mythallars, the basic function would be somewhat different anyways, heck Dweoamer fields is a fine too, I just mean advanced magic items that store magical energy and together can form their own artifical weave. In a way that is more advanced then old fashined Mythallars.
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2017 :  19:55:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
^AYUP^

Like I said above, just because they used to build their mythalars one way, doesn't mean they didn't figure out how to build them (or something VERY similar) later on.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, why did the Netherese go all the way down to the bottom edge of the continent from the top? Probably because they had an enclave down there already. I'd even go so far as to say they probably had some ground communities built for food production, probably along the coast. Given that their flying ships CAN go on water as well, I would also half wonder if they didn't maybe have their enclave floating out above the water.
Take a look at the map I posted just yesterday on DeviantART - notice anythg weird about Halruaa? Ya know... like something HONKIN' BIG landed there, and made that crater?

Maybe they were investigating a primoridal themselves - they perhaps had a major 'archaeological dig' going on there, and when the fall occurred, the survivors headed for that region where they knew they had some ground-based camps that could have survived (and also some of their more powerful mages).

When I first started reading what you wrote, I wasn't on board, until I realized how well that shoe-horned into my own recent thoughts on Halruaa. It had just never occurred to me that the Netherese may have already been investigating that area, but it actually makes a lot of sense.

As for those other enclaves and where they were at - why was Larloch in the Unapproachable East, but wound-up where he did on the Sword Coast? Could 'keeping an eye on Halaster' have really been so important? And if so, WHY? Could it have been related to Abeir somehow? (Halaster's 'mastery of portals' was the main thing Larloch coveted, from what I've gathered from questions asked Ed).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Aug 2017 03:29:31
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31518 Posts

Posted - 04 Aug 2017 :  20:23:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe it's just me, but I think that the fact we don't have anything even implying the creation of new mythallars, post -339 DR, indicates that it's no longer possible.

Ditto the fact that the Shades were all gung-ho about raising Sakkors, rather than just building another.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5281 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2017 :  02:52:14  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Maybe it's just me, but I think that the fact we don't have anything even implying the creation of new mythallars, post -339 DR, indicates that it's no longer possible.

Ditto the fact that the Shades were all gung-ho about raising Sakkors, rather than just building another.



My definite view is that after Karsus' Folly, Mystra changed the Weave so that you couldn't establish a connection between the Weave and a newly-created mythallar. Existing connections remained (which explains why Sakkors was still functional) but no one bothered after a few failed attempts. In addition, the existing connections were clearly disrupted so the nature and extent of the power provided by existing mythallars changed as well in my book. If I ever get around to writing up Netheril "properly" this kind of stuff will be a focus.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2017 :  03:34:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like I said, it doesn't have to be an actual mythalar - just something similar they came up with to replace them (and maybe more single-structure focused, how most drow Spell-webs are). I really dig those Spellcruxes for this.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Maybe it's just me, but I think that the fact we don't have anything even implying the creation of new mythallars, post -339 DR, indicates that it's no longer possible.

Ditto the fact that the Shades were all gung-ho about raising Sakkors, rather than just building another.
Telemont got his first kiss there?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31518 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2017 :  04:19:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Maybe it's just me, but I think that the fact we don't have anything even implying the creation of new mythallars, post -339 DR, indicates that it's no longer possible.

Ditto the fact that the Shades were all gung-ho about raising Sakkors, rather than just building another.
Telemont got his first kiss there?



Heh.

I still don't get why Sakkors was chosen over Nhalloth. Aside from the fact that Nhalloth was parked way close to the Simbul, it was in all other respects the better choice. It wasn't as deep, and it was relatively intact. Sakkors had fallen into deeper water and them tumbled downhill, rolling over and over, for a couple of miles.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 15 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2018 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000