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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1034 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  06:16:07  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I do not see change as a bad thing, and you are right the Sundering "reset" a lot of things. However, a lot of things were left on a knifes edge that have to be played out. The situation with Unther and Tymanther, for example, is unsustainable. Either Gilgeam has to defeat Tymanther or Gilgeam has to be defeated. The issue of Mulhorand and Murghôm is unsustainable. Either the Dragon Princes will move on Mulhorand or Mulhorand will move on them.


I understand. But I see those situations as stuff thats was left there in that way to be solved by the player characters, not something that canon needs to deal with.

We can provide adventure hooks, though. Like those ideas in Volo's Guide to Unther and Mulhorand, were they said "this faction was doing this, and has those numbers, and this and that". Like the stuff with Ningal and the soldiers of "Nanna-Sin".

But leave the final resolution to individual gaming groups.

The Red Wizards stuff is more complicated. I like sleyvas idea, though. Create an opposing faction of more traditional Red Wizards. But not blow out Tam's Thay. Maybe oppose Tam and the "Old School" Red Wizards. Maybe those Red Wizards reclaimed a part of Thay and now are at war with Tam. But again, I would leave the resolution of that conflict to the pcs.

But well, I'm of the mind that are the pcs the ones who will have to resolve stuffs, not the npcs.

The Tree is even more complicated, but I don't know much about the elven plot, so I cannot say much about this. However, I do not like the concept of the Retreat, because is a blatant copy-paste of Tolkien's stuff, so my point of view will be biased here.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 29 Jul 2017 06:18:02
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  07:58:41  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I understand. But I see those situations as stuff thats was left there in that way to be solved by the player characters, not something that canon needs to deal with.


In general, I agree with you, it is better to leave things to PCs than NPCs. However, we also have to have fidelity to the source material. As the canon advances it becomes necessary to tackle these conflicts.

I think of it this way. Picture a glass of water with ice in it. The ice water is left out on the table overnight. Due to entropy the ice will melt, and the water will become room temperature. The ice had to melt as time passed--this was inevitable--the water and the ice were moving toward a 'stable state'. That is what the Realms is constantly moving toward, a 'state of stability.' Like the melting ice, as time passes, the conflicts have to be resolved--this is as unavoidable as keeping the ice from melting.

So, for example, in the situation with Gilgeam and Tymather, as the time line advances we cannot ignore the war. The conflict in the region will play out until a stable state is reached. That does not necessarily mean that one side has to win, though that is the most likely outcome, it could also mean that they are locked in a cold war--or a horrific bloody war in which both sides are just brutalizing each other, but neither side is really gaining the upper hand.

In the end, a stable state has to be reached. Once that happens, then the best method is to drop possible instabilities into the canon (potential adventure seeds/plot hooks), groups can then engage with those things on their own.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1034 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  10:25:08  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess it will depends on how much we advance the timeline in the candlekanon. The only issue will be Tymanther/Unther, as I don't see the Dragon Princes of Murghôm attacking Mulhorand, as they didn't attacked High Imaskar. The problem will be the opposite, if Mulhorand attacks... and that, well. How to deal with it will depend on how far the timeline moves.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6906 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  10:50:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, looking at the entry where at the Time of Troubles the high priest of Entropy accidentally ports a Hakeashar from the Cimbar treasury into Luthcheq and creates a dead magic area.... while it didn't happen, I really like the idea... and maybe when the maw of Entropy disappears and is returned to its form of entrapped Entropy.... maybe it happens again. However, maybe this time its on purpose and someone thinks sending a hakeashar to destroy Entropy will work (or is at least worth a try). I'm not thinking having it cover all of Luthcheq though... a localized dead magic area over the temple of Entropy works.


Also, this reminded me, I remember about a year ago reading up on the Millenium Dragon and wondering how he would fare in Abeir if the Untheric city of Dalath transferred. He is now a follower of Kereska the wonder bringer. I wonder if we know where she laired? Given her focus on magic, might she have been in dweomerheart? It could be interesting to have a Millenia old dragon (in a relatively youthful new body) devoted to the gods of magic fending off the dragon lords of Abeir

Or what if... and I really don't know if I like this idea...but what if the Millenium Dragon didn't go to Abeir. What if its ascending somehow and it is what is posing as Enlil.... nah, sounds cheesy... hmmm, there's a seed here somehow.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6906 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  11:16:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Hmmm, looking at the entry where at the Time of Troubles the high priest of Entropy accidentally ports a Hakeashar from the Cimbar treasury into Luthcheq and creates a dead magic area.... while it didn't happen, I really like the idea... and maybe when the maw of Entropy disappears and is returned to its form of entrapped Entropy.... maybe it happens again. However, maybe this time its on purpose and someone thinks sending a hakeashar to destroy Entropy will work (or is at least worth a try). I'm not thinking having it cover all of Luthcheq though... a localized dead magic area over the temple of Entropy works.


Also, this reminded me, I remember about a year ago reading up on the Millenium Dragon and wondering how he would fare in Abeir if the Untheric city of Dalath transferred. He is now a follower of Kereska the wonder bringer. I wonder if we know where she laired? Given her focus on magic, might she have been in dweomerheart? It could be interesting to have a Millenia old dragon (in a relatively youthful new body) devoted to the gods of magic fending off the dragon lords of Abeir

Or what if... and I really don't know if I like this idea...but what if the Millenium Dragon didn't go to Abeir. What if its ascending somehow and it is what is posing as Enlil.... nah, sounds cheesy... hmmm, there's a seed here somehow.


Finally, just a note, because I had looked into it as well. Yeoman's Loft wasn't a netherese enclave in the outer atmosphere. It was a ground location. The reason why I had looked was because of what I'm doing with Doubloon Enclave (the one that can turn invisible.. I assume that Halruaan's had it, but then when Nimbral formed its own country, they took it with them, only to later have it fitted with a spelljammer by some other folks who brought it into orbit... and then Mythrell'aa tracks it down).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6906 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  11:28:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I do not see change as a bad thing, and you are right the Sundering "reset" a lot of things. However, a lot of things were left on a knifes edge that have to be played out. The situation with Unther and Tymanther, for example, is unsustainable. Either Gilgeam has to defeat Tymanther or Gilgeam has to be defeated. The issue of Mulhorand and Murghôm is unsustainable. Either the Dragon Princes will move on Mulhorand or Mulhorand will move on them.


I understand. But I see those situations as stuff thats was left there in that way to be solved by the player characters, not something that canon needs to deal with.

We can provide adventure hooks, though. Like those ideas in Volo's Guide to Unther and Mulhorand, were they said "this faction was doing this, and has those numbers, and this and that". Like the stuff with Ningal and the soldiers of "Nanna-Sin".

But leave the final resolution to individual gaming groups.

The Red Wizards stuff is more complicated. I like sleyvas idea, though. Create an opposing faction of more traditional Red Wizards. But not blow out Tam's Thay. Maybe oppose Tam and the "Old School" Red Wizards. Maybe those Red Wizards reclaimed a part of Thay and now are at war with Tam. But again, I would leave the resolution of that conflict to the pcs.

But well, I'm of the mind that are the pcs the ones who will have to resolve stuffs, not the npcs.

The Tree is even more complicated, but I don't know much about the elven plot, so I cannot say much about this. However, I do not like the concept of the Retreat, because is a blatant copy-paste of Tolkien's stuff, so my point of view will be biased here.



Yeah, part of what I've been working on too doesn't have my returned red wizards in Peleveran all that tightly focused on one goal. When they return to Thay, its almost like kids in a candy store. They see numerous opportunities and the chief goal of the government is to try and control all of this.

For instance, I've discussed having Halruaa come back, but having its own people who have taken on the old moniker of red wizards (where they started). If these red wizards flee to Peleveran, they may ostensibly accepted. Lauzoril won't immediately trust them however, because well... he's Lauzoril. However, he might decide to essentially use them against Halruaa to prove their loyalty. Similarly, many High Imaskari are fleeing Mulhorand and they may be allowed to tentatively settle in ... if they prove their loyalty. Then there's the Crintri who settled in Peleveran since they got caught in the transfer. When they return, they think they'll be able to return home (and just to note, 100 years isn't necessarily old enough that the would have died... so they remember their old home... and they built up new families that they told about their beautiful home)... only to find some barbarians who were their servants overthrew and slew their families.

On the Crintri as well, I'm having the city of Torsch transfer as well to Abeir. Its just along the end of where the landrise turns into mountains right beneath the Chondalwood. There's been very little written about it as a city, BUT "prayers from the faithful" places a drow cavern complex beneath it called Vaerndoun. There has been literally nothing really said about these drow outside of "prayers from the faithful". So, in thinking about Peleveran being a Cliffside city with caves that go into the earth, I've settled also on the idea that the ancient Pelevari people used to trade with these drow via a tunnel. The red wizard show up, start revamping the city. They find this tunnel. Their new crintri allies send male crintri down into these tunnels... and these males, with red wizard aid, take let's say hundreds of male and female drow captive. As a reward the red wizards let the Crintri keep these drow as their slaves, especially because the drow verbally disrespect the Crintri. The male Crintri are allowed to impregnate these drow females, and thus there is a new line of Crintri born. The male drow were not so lucky, many receiving a magical version of vasectomies, so that the female Crintri might have harems, but not have to worry about becoming impregnated unless they wished it. They might leave some of the male drow clear if they've earned their respect just for the purpose of breeding, though they would be just as apt to breed with male Crintri.


BTW, on the Crintri... I haven't settled on them exactly how the transfer affects them religiously. Loviatar didn't go over to Abeir. Wondering who exactly might be a good deity amongst those who DID disappear for them to embrace. Part of me is picturing Bast/Sharess, but she's not dark enough. You know, I was porting the "lost" Zakharan goddess Kiga, the Predator (goddess of the hunt and the kill, Lady of Wereleopards) over to Katashaka as still vibrant. Being she's basically a female version of Malar, she could fit the whole Crintri aspect as dominant females with a passion for horseback hunting. In fact, she might even fit it a bit better than Loviatar did. Hmmm, now I'm picturing all these Crintri females (which may only be say a thousand or two in total mind you) with black panthers, lionesses (black ones maybe?), and leopards. Maybe some even shirk riding horses and instead ride dire lionesses and breed and nurture both cats and horses. When they return to Toril, with Malar prominent in Dambrath, that sets up something interesting actually... Malar god of the hunt versus Kiga the Predator, goddess of the hunt and the kill.

Hmmm, thinking on the two parts above.... maybe it would be too weird, but what if the children of the drow/Crintri are pulled away from their drow mothers at birth and suckled on the teats of lionesses alongside baby cubs? Maybe the drow mothers are required to lactate themselves to produce extra milk as well, but they are not allowed access to their children.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Jul 2017 12:55:36
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6906 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  19:09:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Big difference between 'probably' and it says he is.
I prefer to keep our options open. After all, you're the one who drew my attention to him, and he is pretty damn cool, so making him 'just anther devil (even an archdevil) seems a bit anticlimactic. Even Grazzt has a more interesting story than that, and we don't even know his whole story. I picture as something a bit 'above and beyond' a normal devil - some a bit more ancient (A Baatoran?)

I found a coupe of other good pics, but nothing exactl what i am picturing in my head.

THIS ONE is from LotR, but its still a pretty good starting point (there's something similar in Naruto) - two huge statues with a river passing between them. Except for this, maybe a male and female statue, facing each other, with hands out-stretched and touching (which is hollow, so its actually a bridge to get from one side of the crevasse to the other).

A similar one with two statues (we're just missing the city/fortress.) LOL

Another One, also far from perfect, but it does have that 'wall look' I am going for.






Thank you Markustay. You're pictures that you're finding are wonderful, and that image you pulled out of the air of the man and woman reach towards each other and forming a bridge is perfect. I'm picturing them both holding a metallic sculpture in the middle that's kind of like a brazier that has a hollow sculpture of curving metal meant to represent flames. Then maybe all over it there are numerous continual flame spells cast. Part of me thinks the continual flames should be different colors (red, yellow, blue, green, purple, kind of like a rainbow effect), but it might look better as blue, red, yellow, or green. Maybe some of these continual flames have started fading out.

Hmmm, the more you're showing me, the more I'm thinking that the two waterfalls at the end should in fact be at the end of the U but at the top. Its much prettier. Then I'm thinking that the "arms" of the U as it proceeds toward the western Shaar should actually RISE. Then about 1/3 of the way down the arms on each side there should be a smaller waterfall on each side, and these waterfalls should be decorated as you described with a face.

What the face looks like would depend on what we make the actual Pelevari civilization be like (because we actually know very little of their kingdom prior to Tuelhalva Drakewings showing up, going into their granary deep in the earth, and then spending like 17 years straight casting a ritual that freed Gargauth... taking over the kingdom... and then a month later .... DRAGONS!!!... kingdom dead). Part of me is thinking that it should be all about the Arkaiuns that inhabited Shandaular. However, what if there were other people there BEFORE the people of Shandaular showed up. Check my thoughts for me, but the Turami were in the Chondath area and displaced from Chessenta. Then there area also Shaaryan people. This very well could have started out as a Turami/Shaaryan kingdom and its just never really been well documented.... because let's face it the Shaar has never been well documented. I think later they would have started accepting in Arakaiun humans as well (which would have had both Nar and Illuskan influences), and maybe at THAT point was when the kingdom itself really started forming as the two cultures shared ideas. Meanwhile, many of the other Arkaiuns went south and formed Dambrath.

I'm not thinking this should be the millennia long kingdom/empire like what we've seen with Netheril, Jhaamdath, Imaskar, Unther, Mulhorand, etc... either. I'm thinking like 3 to 5 centuries old, maybe, and getting destroyed in 1018. So, I'm kind of picturing it forming let's say in the 600's DR. What do we know that was happening in that timeframe down in that area.

As far as cultures go, I'm kind of picturing it as a kingdom which raided Illythiiri ruins left on the surface. That would include demon summoning. Then the Nar background amongst the Arkaiun might also include similar summoning. However, I don't want to paint these people as absolutely dark demon worshippers.

As far at the surface goes above it, its important to note one thing. The area wasn't all Savannah. Eric Boyd's entry on Gargauth states in regard to Peleveran at its fall "Only a handful of ruins survive of that long-forgotten kingdom. What was once a tree-cloaked, fertile land is now barren, open, stony country". So, I'm kind of picturing the Chondalwood extending down to here, and probably between the dragons firing their cities and lumberjack work, its was burned and is now coming back as a Savannah in the 1300's. In the 1400's I'm seeing it as extremely fertile with Grumbar's blessing. So, the culture that's there may be big on growing trees and other plant life now. I've also pictured the red wizard culture that's there now being big on the elemental lords and elemental magic (in all fields, not just fire). This could extend into monks with elemental focus, etc...

Then having Zulkir Lauzoril Tavai of Enchantment and Aulkir Dmitra Flass of illusion and Nyasia Tavai, Thulkir of the Guild Arcane Spymasters of the Tharch of Peleveran.... I'm seeing this Tharch having a very heavy focus not on expansion by war, but expansion in the way Lauzoril always wanted it... spycraft. Also, given the idea that Gargauth is maybe trapped in his pit.... maybe there's also a lot of warlocks with a flair for deception and deal making. This could be the debate going on between the leaders of this Tharch. For instance, I also am talking about having Ythazz Buvarr as an Aulkir of Divination and I see him wanting to be more forceful, but he'll also be remote in Cimbar and Soorenar (speaking of which, I may have to have a concept for a sub-tharch... as in a collection of cities that aren't a Tharch on their own and are ruled by the council of mages and Tharchion of a nearby Tharch... each of these "sub-tharchs" would have maybe an autharch who can actually vote in the council on matters affecting the entire tharch as a whole).

For that matter, this small kingdom could very well have been very multicultural. We know that it stretched between Torsch, Hardcastle, and where Pelevari is. From "Prayers from the Faithful" we know that there's a great subterranean cavern complex named Vaerndoun made up of drow in a bunch of interconnected caves, many containing lakes, that stretch in a northeast/southwest line for OVER a hundred miles with the midpoint deep beneath Torsch. Maybe the same river that feeds to Pelevari has a spur that heads more northerly and feeds these various lakes. Maybe the caves that filled the cliff face of the gorge actually have one tunnel that extends into the underdark and the Pelevari used to trade with these drow. I can definitely see the Pelevari trading food for metals and gems and magic. I can also see them enslaving tribal gnolls, wemics, thri-kreen, hybsil, centaurs, kenku, minotaurs, orcs and goblinoids, cat folk, etc... and trading them to the drow. However, I can also see them having a decent relationship maybe with some centaur, hybsil, wemic tribes and maybe even the dwarves and some of the wood elves in the region.




Hmmm, thinking on this. We don't know WHO made those Cliffside caverns and how long they've been there. I'm thinking with a pit that's connected to "bad stuff" (whether its Baator or somewhere else like Shattered Night), maybe the tunnels that I was saying might lead to the drow civilizations nearby.... maybe that's because when the ilythiiri were still on the surface they made what later became known as Peleveria in the LandRise. Gives a good reason to make it pretty in a way than would not be how Dwarves would do it. Could even link it to the drow city of Telantiwar which was ruined when the Great Rift was formed by the collapse of the former dwarven city of Bhaerynden.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Jul 2017 19:10:40
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1271 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  01:29:47  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Unfortunately, I feel a bit trapped. I feel like the only way to fix things so that they make sense is to hit the RSE button, and I loathe the RSE button, lol.



Don't see why you feel like you need to 'fix' things. Most of it were fixed in the Sundering. And others... well, we have to accept that stuff changed. And change is not a bad thing.

The Realms changed. A century of changes cannot be undone without damaging the setting. "Fixing things" would have even more less sense than the changes they did to the Realms.


I do not see change as a bad thing, and you are right the Sundering "reset" a lot of things. However, a lot of things were left on a knifes edge that have to be played out. The situation with Unther and Tymanther, for example, is unsustainable. Either Gilgeam has to defeat Tymanther or Gilgeam has to be defeated. The issue of Mulhorand and Murghôm is unsustainable. Either the Dragon Princes will move on Mulhorand or Mulhorand will move on them.

That is not including the changes we want to make ourselves. For example, Sleyvas and I are not fans of the current incarnation of Thay. We want to bring back the Red Wizards in one incarnation or another. This basically sets up another RSE event.

There is also issues that need to be dealt with like how do we handle the Tree of Souls? Is the portal there to Evermeet active still now that Evermeet is back? Does this mean that Myth Drannor will be reclaimed again, and hundreds of thousands of Elves will eventually resettle in the Heartlands? How will conflict with the humans be avoided? If the Elves decide not to return to Faerun, and the call for the Retreat goes back out, do they abandon the Tree of Souls? Is this the final nail in the coffin for the Elves of Toril?

All of this stuff has to be sorted out, some of it has to happen immediately and some of it has to happen later.



I suspect one of the Dragon Princes, the most powerful is an ally of Mulhorand, for there was a rumour that this dragon was protecting a door behind which was a secret army, my guess a Mulhorandi army.
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1034 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  02:36:25  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Skalnaedyr? Interesting. Can you tell the source of this?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15626 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  03:46:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, the last two posts lost me. I don't see where Zeromaru X read "Skalnaedyr", and I don't understand what the post above it has to do with the quoted piece.

As for a door gaurded by a dragon with a 'secret army' behind it, maybe you should check out the three Hordelands modules - they discuss just ONE of the armies (of clay warriors) that the Shou (Tan Chin, really) had 'stashed'. There was another army hidden in Tempat Larang (Ronin Challenge).

All of that makes me think even more whoever came up with that stuff for Murghôm (and Semphar) was thinking about Gaumahavi, the Purple Dragon (who was one of the focuses of that series of adventures - she was in direct opposition to Tan Chin). There is also some psuedo-canon in Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead (although I have every intention of tweaking that a bit for the Candlekanon) that pertains to the events in those adventures, and what happened afterword. Lastly, there is some odd bit of history about Solon (Tan Chin's citystate) in Dragon Magic, under the Magic Items (Legacy Item: Wyrmbane Helm). Once again, MORE 'dragon stuff' pertaining to the kingdoms surrounding the Raurin.

I get the idea that dragons ruled for a time after the fall of Imaskar (but not right after, because we have history about that as well, in Desert of Desolation). After the desert finally swallowed up these nearby survivor-states (and YES, the desert definitely 'grew' after the initial blow-out with the Pharonics, probably because they obliterated all the water-sources), the dragons were all that remained, for a time, until some barbaric tribes of Muhjein from the south (descendants of people who migrated up from Zakhara) settled the Raurin once-again (although Gaumahavi still ruled supreme... except for Ambuchar Devyam, who was secretly Tan Chin, in Solon).

And maybe dragons ruled before the Imaskari - it seems to be an area they feel compelled to stay in. "Humans come, and humans go, but dragons are eternal." Regardless, it is evident that dragons have tried to control the region at least one other time in the past.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jul 2017 03:50:31
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1034 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  04:28:11  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Okay, the last two posts lost me. I don't see where Zeromaru X read "Skalnaedyr", and I don't understand what the post above it has to do with the quoted piece.


Gyor says:

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I suspect one of the Dragon Princes, the most powerful is an ally of Mulhorand,



According to Brimstone (Capnolithyl... the vampire drake form the Rage of Dragons novels), the most powerful dragon of the Dragon Princes of Murghôm is Skalneadyr (the dragon for which the town of Phannaskul changed its name)—he said that in the Captive Flame (the first of the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels).

So, unless I'm understanding all wrong here, Gyor is saying that Skalnaedyr is somehow backing the Mulhorandi...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1034 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  17:52:33  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is there a reason for why it took like 400 years for mulani slaves to move from the Raurin to Mulhorand? I find that time spam too long to be realistic... The Raurin is not too far away from Mulhorand, and I don't find any logical explanation for why the slaves were wandering 300 years in a desert.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 Jul 2017 18:01:09
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15626 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  18:17:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, all I got out of that is that an author changed the name of a settlement.

No map I ever do will ever reflect that. Thats basically slapping the crap out of all us cartographers and saying, "who's my b**ch?"

I am ANNOYED now.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Is there a reason for why it took like 400 years for mulani slaves to move from the Raurin to Mulhorand? I find that time spam too long to be realistic... The Raurin is not too far away from Mulhorand, and I don't find any logical explanation for why the slaves were wandering 300 years in a desert.
Where does t say that? Its patently ridiculous, since there is other lore quite clearly stating the Imaskari had outposts, plantations, etc all over the 'Old Empires' region WHILE it was still Imaskar. No one went anywhere.

Conjecture:
Something along these lines came up a long time ago on the WotC forums, and I decided that their were two tiers of slaves (there usually are) - one group was good for nothing but 'manual labor' (worked the farms and mines, 'volunteered' for magical experimentation, etc.), and the other were the 'House Slaves' which were a 'better breed' (and a lot of those were probably educated, just so that they could do their jobs better).

So the way i see it, when all Hell broke lose, the slaves working the fields and mines in the distant 'Mulhor' and 'Unth' provinces started to flee westward. into Chessenta and then Chondath (displacing the native Turami north and south). It was the better-educated, smarter House Slaves that would have fled the heart of the empire into what would become Mulhorand and Unther (which is why the descendants of slaves were able to create such powerful empires).

At least, thats how I saw it all going down. Smarted slaves displaced dumber ones, plus, they slaves themselves were of different ethnic backgrounds, and as part of Imaskar, were probably of different slaves 'castes'. There was probably a 'Border Kingdoms' period with dozens (if nor hundreds) of tiny Realms calling themselves 'kingdoms' until it all shook itself out into the major ones we know about today. A lt f that history would have just been wiped-out, and other parts of Faerûn would not have even been keeping track of it (hence, us not knowing the details... yet).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jul 2017 19:19:50
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  18:43:39  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well... nearly all (if not all) settlements in Murghôm (and, I guess also Semphar) got their names changed to match those of their dragon lords, with an explanation in-universe.


quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Is there a reason for why it took like 400 years for mulani slaves to move from the Raurin to Mulhorand? I find that time spam too long to be realistic... The Raurin is not too far away from Mulhorand, and I don't find any logical explanation for why the slaves were wandering 300 years in a desert.

Where does t say that? Its patebntlky ridiculous, since there is other lore quite clearly stating the Imaskari had plantations, etc all over the 'Old Empires' region WHILE it was still Imaskar. No one went anywhere.


I'm reading the timelines in Old Empires, Lost Empires of Faerûn and the Grand History of the Realms. According to the Grand History, Raurin became a desert when Horus killed the last emperor of Imaskar, in -2488. Then, in -2487, a year later (according to Lost Empires) the former Imaskari slaves fled the Raurin and traveled to the Alamber Sea. Yet, Skuld was founded in -2135 DR (this is consistent in all timelines).

That's nearly 300 years doing nothing in the desert...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 Jul 2017 18:48:43
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Gyor
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Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  18:49:59  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Okay, the last two posts lost me. I don't see where Zeromaru X read "Skalnaedyr", and I don't understand what the post above it has to do with the quoted piece.


Gyor says:

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I suspect one of the Dragon Princes, the most powerful is an ally of Mulhorand,



According to Brimstone (Capnolithyl... the vampire drake form the Rage of Dragons novels), the most powerful dragon of the Dragon Princes of Murghôm is Skalneadyr (the dragon for which the town of Phannaskul changed its name)—he said that in the Captive Flame (the first of the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels).

So, unless I'm understanding all wrong here, Gyor is saying that Skalnaedyr is somehow backing the Mulhorandi...



Yes! That's the name. I could see Skalneadyr backing and aiding Mulhorand.

Hiding a secret army until the Mulhorandi Gods returned.

I mean its a powerful alliance, Skalneadyr gets a powerful empire lead by Gods as an ally, which puts him in a good position to subjagate the other Dragon Princes, and Mulhorand gets a powerful ally on its Eastern flank, that can protect it's Eastern Flank, so it can focus more on its Western Flank where Unther and Tymanther are are war.

No one would be greatly inclined to invade Mulhorand and the Imaskari are still licking their wounds and likely in no mood for a rematch.

Edited by - Gyor on 30 Jul 2017 23:32:02
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Aldrick
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Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  19:10:45  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Okay, all I got out of that is that an author changed the name of a settlement.

No map I ever do will ever reflect that. Thats basically slapping the crap out of all us cartographers and saying, "who's my b**ch?"

I am ANNOYED now.


From my understanding of events: A dragon named Skalnaedyr conquered the town of Phannaskul. Skalnaedyr becomes the first dragon prince of Murghôm. Eventually, because the people of the settlement served said dragon, the town that was once named Phannaskul becomes named after the dragon who rules it--Skalnaedyr. The town also later became a city.

That seems like a legit name change to me, based on the history of what happened there. It's not a situation of someone randomly changing the name of a place for no reason--there is lore behind the change that makes sense.

Lore for Skalnaedyr can be found here.

Lore for the Dragon Princes can be found here.

Lore for Murghôm can be found here.
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Markustay
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Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  19:10:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
List of Imaskari Survivor-States

Still Around
Mulhorand
Unther
Chessenta (would have grown out of the two above)
Chondath (would have grown out of the two above)
Khazari - apparently, once the capital of Anok-Imaskar
Murghôm
Narfel (out of Narfel empire - a Raumvari people)
Rashemen (out of fallen Raumathar, in the Taan region)
Ra-Khati (I would guess its a piece of Khazari that broke-away)
Semphar
Shou-Lung (out of Anok-Imaskar)
Sossal (a Raumvari people, out of fallen Raumathar)
Tu'Lung (out of 2nd Shou Empire)


Fallen Kingdoms
Anok-Imaskar - First empire of the Shou (and theoretical 'Anoque' race)
Bakar (sometimes known as the 'Raurindi' people)
Bhaluin (not much known - probably a piece of one of the others)
Guge - seems to have been a kingdom of half-Fey (Spiritfolk) for a time
Kalmyk (a mixture of barbarians; human Gur and some 'beastmen' - Hobgoblins? Ore-magi?)
Khati - appears to have been its own kingdom for a time during the 'Middle Kingdoms' period (became Ra-Khati, Khazari, and maybe Guge, post-collapse).
Limia - the western half of southern Imaskar - became Solon?
Narfel Empire (northern Imaskar, of mixed Imaskar/Gur origins)
Nemrut - the 'core' of the Imaskari Empire, where the Plains of Purple dust lie
Raumathar (out of the conquered native 'Gur' people of the northern Taan)
Raurin - the eastern half of southern Imaskar
Solon - Just one city now, but there are references to it once being a much larger realm
Suren - (from what I can tell, the 'human element' of the Kalmyk that broke-away)
Taanga - lands of the Taangan tribes (erroneously all called 'Tuigan' because of the war - tribes of various, usually mixed ethnicities that were all conquered and controlled by Imaskar)
Thommar - mention in DoD; likely once a part of a bigger province (see below)
Tsharoon - existed in 227 DR where the quoya desert now is

Theoretical
Thazalhar is mentioned at least once in the context of it being a realm of it own
Larang - Capital: Tempat Larang - would have encompassed the Larang Valleys as well.
Gaelios Province ('Golden Waters') - the lands south of the Dustwall
Mulhor Province - Where Mulhorand now is
Unth - where Unther now is/was
Sentaria - "Land of the Centaurs" - where Thay is now (may have not been a plateau back then)
Dathia - "the wild lands beyond the Unth Marches"
The Ravaged Coast - The Utter East, where a few 'less savory' Imaskari fled after the fall

Other
Tsaparang Fortress - (in Guge) Builders, unknown (I theorizes an eastern branch of dark elves/drow)





"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jul 2017 21:09:04
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Aldrick
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Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  19:21:12  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I'm reading the timelines in Old Empires, Lost Empires of Faerûn and the Grand History of the Realms. According to the Grand History, Raurin became a desert when Horus killed the last emperor of Imaskar, in -2488. Then, in -2487, a year later (according to Lost Empires) the former Imaskari slaves fled the Raurin and traveled to the Alamber Sea. Yet, Skuld was founded in -2135 DR (this is consistent in all timelines).

That's nearly 300 years doing nothing in the desert...


Yeah, when I originally proposed going back and cleaning up the timeline it was to fix stuff like this--it is ridiculous and makes no sense.

So, um, we'll just yada, yada, yada past it. Horus/Ra and the other Mulan deities didn't bring a compass with them, and they got lost in the desert. They are also super prideful and absolutely refused to stop and ask for directions, and so, for three hundred years, they wandered in a giant circle.

"So, the Mulan deities helped their people overthrow the Imaskari empire, and yada, yada, yada--now they've formed empires of their own along the Alamber Sea."

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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  19:29:30  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I'm reading the timelines in Old Empires, Lost Empires of Faerûn and the Grand History of the Realms. According to the Grand History, Raurin became a desert when Horus killed the last emperor of Imaskar, in -2488. Then, in -2487, a year later (according to Lost Empires) the former Imaskari slaves fled the Raurin and traveled to the Alamber Sea. Yet, Skuld was founded in -2135 DR (this is consistent in all timelines).

That's nearly 300 years doing nothing in the desert...

Thats not really a problem, and not really true. For example, people settled 'Seventon' long before they became the Netherese Empire. There was probably something there before, and it was only officially named 'Skuld' once it became a city and/or the capital of an empire. I am picturing a large number of 'squabbling citystates' at first (basically, petty kingdoms that only ruled 'as far as the eye can see'). That entry just tell us when Mulhorand history began (so we don't ever see that 'warring states' period - its forgotten history).

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

From my understanding of events: A dragon named Skalnaedyr conquered the town of Phannaskul. Skalnaedyr becomes the first dragon prince of Murghôm. Eventually, because the people of the settlement served said dragon, the town that was once named Phannaskul becomes named after the dragon who rules it--Skalnaedyr. The town also later became a city.

That seems like a legit name change to me, based on the history of what happened there. It's not a situation of someone randomly changing the name of a place for no reason--there is lore behind the change that makes sense.

Lore for Skalnaedyr can be found here.

Lore for the Dragon Princes can be found here.

Lore for Murghôm can be found here.
Oh, I am sure they had perfectly good reasons... its just that I want MY maps to be useful in all eras, and that doesn't really work when stuff has different names in different eras.

Writing in an RPG setting is NOT the same as writing any old fantasy novel - its a shared world, and you can't just go making changes all willy-nilly like that.

Thats why I believe in 'small stories', about individuals and very tiny, local events. Any 'tragedy' greater than knocking over a cup of tea should be discussed for at least 20 years, by a group of no less than ten thousand people, and then voted on, by the whole of planet Earth.

Well... maybe not quite that... but you get the idea...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jul 2017 19:31:56
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  19:41:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You can always write those names as "Skalnaedyr (Phannaskul)"

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I'm reading the timelines in Old Empires, Lost Empires of Faerûn and the Grand History of the Realms. According to the Grand History, Raurin became a desert when Horus killed the last emperor of Imaskar, in -2488. Then, in -2487, a year later (according to Lost Empires) the former Imaskari slaves fled the Raurin and traveled to the Alamber Sea. Yet, Skuld was founded in -2135 DR (this is consistent in all timelines).

That's nearly 300 years doing nothing in the desert...


Yeah, when I originally proposed going back and cleaning up the timeline it was to fix stuff like this--it is ridiculous and makes no sense.



Yeah, this is why I'm writing a timeline of significant canon events in the region, to sort out those inconsistencies and deal with them.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 Jul 2017 19:41:53
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Aldrick
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Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  19:59:59  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Oh, I am sure they had perfectly good reasons... its just that I want MY maps to be useful in all eras, and that doesn't really work when stuff has different names in different eras.

Writing in an RPG setting is NOT the same as writing any old fantasy novel - its a shared world, and you can't just go making changes all willy-nilly like that.

Thats why I believe in 'small stories', about individuals and very tiny, local events. Any 'tragedy' greater than knocking over a cup of tea should be discussed for at least 20 years, by a group of no less than ten thousand people, and then voted on, by the whole of planet Earth.

Well... maybe not quite that... but you get the idea...



'Hi, I'm a fan of the Forgotten Realms, and a veteran of the war of 'the great tea spilling' of 2017-2037. Those were some dark days, even darker than the coffee others wanted to spill. We managed to win that war, but in the end, it was a pyrrhic victory, with only the spilling of the weak tea instead of the strong.'

In all seriousness, I have no idea how you are going to merge the 4E changes to make your maps edition neutral. There are settlements and entire nations that exist that did not exist in previous editions. I mean, heck, we were discussing a bit back the physical geography changes to this region.
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Markustay
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Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  20:11:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm STILL not getting HOW thats an inconsistency?

We have No history how the Aztec empire formed 'out of nothing' - is that an inconsistency? Egypt just 'suddenly appeared out of nowhere' - is THAT an inconsistency?

I think we've been spoiled by the fact that its a fictional setting, so we feel like we are supposed to know EVERYTHING, but thats not realistic... nor necessary.

Here's how I look at it - in the north (and east) we have these nasty little buggers called 'elves'. Pretty useless jerks for the mst part, but they are good for one thing - they live REALLY LONG, and keep fairly accurate records. This is why (meta-gaming here) we know so much about The Heartlands. Our information comes to us via Elminster, who got most of it from the libraries of Myth Drannor (among other things - he is rather OLD). And there ere enough of these elven kingdoms around once to have kept very precise records of the evolution of mankind in that region.

In the south, all we had were the Ilythiir, and they got wiped-out (and the rest were driven underground). Maybe there is some 'long lost library of the Drow' hidden somewhere in the Shaar - who knows? We sure don't, so anything that happened before the Old Empires (and Calimshan, and Halruaa later on) goes unrecorded. What happened before Rome became ROME? All we have is some folklore about two brothers, and a mass-rape. Then suddenly *POOF* - Empire! It doesn't mean lots and lots of stuff didn't happen leading up to that (in fact, I would actually find in inconsistent had the dates immediately followed one another - it would make no sense).

And in the east, things get even worse - most of the records of Imaskar itself would have been destroyed when the capital-lands were obliterated. What little survived fled east with the Anok-Imaskar... and the Shou (in canon) have changed their historic records several times, to match the emperor's 'agenda' (nice little touch that, in the K-T material - it fixes a world of problems).

So the Mulan didn't bother to write-down (or destroyed all record of) their violent 'rise' to empire-status. The people who lived there never questioned any time-gaps in the church-mandated histories. Only 'noisy northerners' who come snooping about ask such questions. The Mulan don't want anyone to know that slaves murdered slaves for hundreds of years in a bloody 'warlord' period. They want everyone to think it all went down smoothly... most especially those Mulan deities who caused all of it.

In fact, I've always wondered why certain Pharonic (and Mesopotamian) gods didn't bother to 'come over'. Maybe they did. Maybe the surviving deities don't want anyone to know what really happened (gods fought gods, or some were killed by Imaskari). Their history has been 'sterilized' so that their Gods appear 'squeaky clean'.

In other words, we need to stop thinking abut FR history as a 'set in stone' bunch of irrefutable factoids, and think of it more like RW history - its all just made-up stories (or 'someones best guess'), usually by someone - or a group of someones - with an agenda. K-T lore literally says this. I've found (in my life) that I learn a lot more by what folks aren't saying, than by what they are saying - so look at those 'holes' in the history as a spot where some really interesting (and probably terrible) stuff went down.

Example: How much do we know about the first few centuries after the drow were forced underground? Did you know they had to revert to cannibalism for awhile? Thats CANON - its in the 2e Drow of the Underdark. People just don't like to talk about that stuff (especially the drow). I'm sure atrocities just as bad happened when the ruling class of Imaskar were are killed.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jul 2017 20:16:43
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  20:25:18  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The incosistency is that took them too much time to travel from Raurin to current day Mulhorand. We know they were traveling, because it is what the Old Empires book says.

"Legends speak of a great war in which powerful humans fought against the gods to wrest away their power. The humans won and became god-kings, but the war destroyed their kingdoms. These godkings, Re and Enlil, led the shattered remnants of their peoples into Mulhorand and Unther."*

Mulhorand, as a nation, was born after the foundation of Skuld, not before (according to the Grand History). So, what they were doing those 300 years before that?

So, the inconsistency is not the time frame, but that it seems it took too much time for them to get from the Raurin to the Alamber Sea (where they founded their city). And geographically, those places are not so far away.

(I smell a huge retcon here)

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 30 Jul 2017 20:27:48
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Markustay
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Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  20:47:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure there is any other way I can explain it.

I'm still not seeing any problem. The lack of information can't really make an inconsistency, only inconsistent information can.

No-one - NOT EVEN A GOD - snaps its fingers and *Instant Empire*. There had to have been a 'warlords period' - thats just how it works. Plus, as I've listed above, there were probably around two dozen major survivor-states. All of that had to be consolidated into the empires we recognize.

People were living in - and colonizing - North America three hundred years before there was a 'United States'. YES, the events leading up to all that are completely different, but some of it is probably the same. Maybe each god had his own territory, and then someone (Ra?) decided they should consolidate everything under one empire (Mulhorand). The Meso-deities saw what was happening and banned together so it wouldn't happen to them (hence, Unther).

If you think thats bad, try making the Chondath/Chessenta history consistent - YOU CAN'T. The history of each conflicts with the history of the other.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jul 2017 20:50:31
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Aldrick
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Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  22:28:18  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm... We do know that the Mulan took this region from the Turami who they considered "barbaric" peoples. Some of this time likely involved some ethnic cleansing.

There also seems to be a divide between Untheric Mulan and Mulhorandi Mulan--namely as a result of the Turami. It seems that the Untheric peoples were more obsessed with racial purity than the Mulhorandi. The Untheric people basically seemed intent on putting the Turami to the sword (and that is why they kept fleeing westward--eventually to Turmish).

Old Empires, pg. 3:
quote:
The people of Unther, who prided themselves on the purity of their race, warred against "barbarian" peoples and drove them from their lands, but the god-kings of Mulhorand, who were openly worshiped by these people, took them in as full citizens. Since then, the peoples of Mulhorand have primarily been racially mixed Turami and Mulan (the race of Unther and Mulhorand).


Of course, this still does not fill in the three-century gap, even if we account for some old fashioned ethnic cleansing. Maybe the Mulan survivors were fewer in number than we believe? Maybe about 8,000 surviving Mulans in total, somewhat unequally divided between Untheric and Mulhorandi peoples?

This would not just include those who died in the war and ensuing chaos of its aftermath. It would also include those Mulan who refused to follow the manifestations. It would take multiple generations to actually grow the population large enough to successfully 'claim' territory larger than a small town.
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