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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6434 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2017 :  22:14:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, I kind of derailed myself there - my post was heading in one direction, and then I realized RoF also said they were 'light skinned' (along with all the art I always thought was inaccurate, and the descriptions in Richard's books). So now what we have is a group that is supposedly of Semetic origins, and yet has very 'pasty' skin tones. The ONLY explanation from that is the other major group the 'Mulan' supposedly mixed with - The Imaskari themselves.

Which means that the Imaskari were not the psuedo-Persians I thought they were (although there is nothing saying they couldn't have had a similar culture, or at the very least, architecture). They were more of the atypical, fantasy-ish 'sorcerer race', which is usually depicted with sallow skin tones (because they are book-wormish and stay out of the sun, supposedly). The problem here stems from my own Earth-European sensibilities, thinking that the 'northern race' of mages should be fair-skinned (the Netherese), and the 'southern sorcerers' should be olive-complexioned, when apparently in FR its the opposite.

Still, Mulan seems to be the group that could be any race, that got 'blended together over time', so I don't see how it could have meant a specific ethnicity in the beginning, so what else could it possibly mean? servant? Even without any theories, homebrew, or inferred canon, we know they we from at least three different racial stocks (Egyptian, Babylonian/Sumerian, and Imaskari. In other words, people may consider it a 'race' now (like how 'Hispanic' has become an ethnicity), but that is an end-result, not how it all began.

I actually meant to break-into a semi-new theory of Imaskari Panspermia, saying how they probably had dozens of groups from dozens of worlds, and used them for different 'jobs', and that they had a bunch of Suel they had brought back (thats the fairly new part) to Toril with them, and those were the progenitors of the different, 'light skinned' Mulan. However, thats no longer necessary, so just disregard most of that above - obviously the entirety of the Mulan group - today - is fair-skinned. In fact, I would have to come up with an explanation for dark Mulan, except the entry in RoF also covered that, by mentioning 'lesser Mulan' who were from admixture of the Turami and Chondathan (a mixture of some olive-skinned 'Mulan' - whom I think were my 'Dathites' - and the Tethan racial group, which themselves were basically our FR version of the proto-Celtic peoples) groups.

The whole thing gets weird because what the Mulan consider 'purebloods' is actually the furthest thing from the original Mulan ethnic type - paradoxically, they seem to prize having the 'fairer skin tones' of their former masters above their own, original features (and at this point I am SO 'walking on eggs' here...). Thus, a 'pureblood' Mulan who has greater social status is actually the descendent of mostly Imaskari cross-breeding. The Thayan seem to be the ones who are the most concerned with this, so I would almost think they were driven from the Old Empires because they were practically pureblood Imaskari themselves.

So the ethnicities currently living in those regions around the Raurin, including the Golden Waters, 'came later'. The Dupari were NOT ancestors of the Imaskari - they were completely unrelated. This actually helps me fix another thing thats been bothering me for quite some time - the languages. 'Devic' is not Raurinese, and I think scholars have gotten that bit wrong - Raurinese came from the Dupari, who spread into the region after Imaskar fell, and 'Devic' was the language of Imaskar (which explains why it was spoken in Solon until very recently). Also, this meshes beautifully with my analogy to the Aryans, who were an Indo-European people, and had some ancient, pre-vedic traditions themselves (Deva/devic). That would mean all my theories about how the Vedic pantheon got into Malatra are also wrong - they are NATIVE, or at least, have existed on Toril nearly since the beginning.

So now that I am rewriting my proto-history, I have to figure out what made the Imaskari turn from their gods, which may have been the Vedic pantheon.



In this you keep thinking one thing.... that the original people who were captured can't have been pale skinned. Just because they worshipped the Egyptian / Babylonian / Sumerian deities doesn't mean they looked a certain way. It may very well be that the Mulan people looked that way, but the Imaskari didn't. The Imaskari may have actually have bred into a more pale breed by mating with the Mulan people. In fact, the Mulan people may have even have had aasimar blood in their veins even BEFORE they started the whole incarnation/manifestation thing and that might help explain their pale nature.

Not saying that that is how it is, just saying the options are all open and the true story is unclear.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6434 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2017 :  01:07:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I just really hate the idea Mulhorand and Unther came back and are now the same boring groups they were before.



I don't know Mulhorand, but that is what happened with Unther, actually...

I don't want to be rude or offend someone here, but that was the whole purpose of the Sundering: return to the whole the ideal Realms without changes, because people hate change.



First, let me say that you didn't offend me, but I think your perception is skewed because you don't have the whole viewpoint because you're looking in hindsight. By that, let me explain in the below.

So, Old Empires came out during 2nd edition. It introduces Gilgeam as still being alive in 1358 DR. In earth time, this is in 1990.

In 1996 earth time, Warriors and Priests of the Realms comes out, and in it, its still talking about Gilgeam ruling and like he's still alive. I'd have to really dig, but GENERALLY this would imply that Gilgeam was still alive into the 1360's.

In 1997 earth time, the 2nd edition Powers and Pantheons comes out. In it, we're told that at SOME POINT AFTER THE ToT BUT BEFORE 1370 DR, when Gilgeam is a full fledged god, he and Tiamat go at one another for a second time (having previously fought during the ToT, and Gilgeam slew Tiamat). Gilgeam is killed (because he is much weakened due to lack of worshippers compared to before ToT) but he also kills Tiamat's avatar again. It specifically says that she goes silent to her worshippers, but that she's "slowly coming back" (which of course makes some wonder WHO is coming back).

So, then 3rd edition comes out, and Gilgeam is DEAD. Unther is in chaos. There's factions trying to gain control, and there's outsiders pushing their influence. We immediately lead off 3rd edition with Mulhorand realizing that their former treaty with the gods of Unther is now invalid, and the Mulhorandi are trying to seize Unther. Meanwhile, Mulhorand's enemy, Thay, is providing aid to those who would oppose Mulhorand. Also, the Red Knight's influence is spreading into Mulhorand, since the "Gold Swords" mercenary company is aiding the clergy of Anhur. This is seen by the Pharaoh of Mulhorand actually taking the advice of a female paladin of the red knight to A) allow women to work the same jobs as men, since the men are off to war and B) restructure the inheritance laws to be more equitable among all siblings. Also, with Gilgeam gone, Bane's influence is growing, primarily from the largest temple of Bane in Faerun that was in a former enemy of Unther... the city of Mourktar in Threskel just to Unther's northern border (also a city which houses much worship of Assuran/Hoar the Doombringer... also an Untherite exile with a beef with Anhur, since Assuran killed Ramman, but Anhur got the portfolios). Then of course, there was also Tiamat, the Northern Wizards, and other factions.

So, as you can see, in 3rd edition, Unther was a melting pot of intrigue, plots, wars, etc... However, it got very little attention until just before 4th edition in which they started talking about the Mulhorandi influence gaining, followers of Bahamut arriving (in the form of dragonborn who were humans who changed themselves into dragonborn), and a focus on Tiamat, Tchazzar, and the dracolich and other undead dragons of Threskel. You will note, Gilgeam's not a big influence in this.

Then 4th edition happens maybe a year to a year and a half later, and everything that had been getting built up to happen is just thrown out. Ironically, the place that was Unther has dragonborn... but its not the dragonborn we knew about that were humans who had changed themselves and followed Bahamut. In fact, these dragonborn are notedly agnostic, and all the storylines we had been building up were just GONE. Mulhorand isn't around as this reborn empire. Threskel is screwed up as well, since Mourktar is gone. Messemprar is gone. They also messed with Chessenta, essentially throwing out all the cool city states, and keeping only the one that was previously full of insane people (Luthcheq)..... and instead make them all sane now.

So, with 5e, what do we have? We have the people of Unther returning. They were following "the Son of Victory" simply because he was willing to stand up against their oppressors. However, many found his methods distasteful (consorting with demons for instance), and they've instead joined with the dragonborn of the city of Tymanther to stand up against him.

We don't know the exact situation of Unther, but I'd be willing to bet that Mourktar and Messemprar are back. Many of us are wondering about who exactly is "the Son of Victory". He might be Gilgeam. He might be Bane (there was the artifact known as the Black Lord's Cloak in Mourktar, if Mourktar did in fact transfer to Abeir). He might even be Iyachtu Xvim for those who believe that Bane himself did in fact return in 3e. He could also be a hidden son of Gilgeam's (though it was rumored that Gilgeam specifically avoided fathering children). Hell, since he is calling himself the "Son of Victory" we may even find out that he's the son of the red knight paladin, Kendera Steeldice, and a former incarnation of Anhur (both gods of war) or something similar and he's duping the Untherites (though that would be a little cheesy).... or even that Kendera Steeldice birthed a child of Gilgeam's (and some may even believe that the red knight is Inanna... which adds an odd twist, given the stories revolving around Gilgamesh and Inanna).

In the end though, we have a tyrannical individual trying to rebuild Unther. However, we also have a nearby empire of Mulhorand which previously was forced to serve the tyrant of Shyr but who also ruled these Untherites. So, we may see another war happening between Unther and Mulhorand. The whole region is becoming a boiling point, with Akanul, Chessenta, possibly "Returned Chessenta" (in my version anyway), Tymanther, Unther, Mulhorand, Threskel, the giants of the black ash plains, and in my version the tharch of Peleveran and possibly a new land replacing the maw of the godswallower.... such that Gilgeam's "return" is just a small piece of the pie and he can be the focus of a small campaign to stop.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30617 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2017 :  23:36:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X


I don't want to be rude or offend someone here, but that was the whole purpose of the Sundering: return to the whole the ideal Realms without changes, because people hate change.



I dumped Dragonlance for the Realms because the Realms offered something Dragonlance didn't: change. At the time, Dragonlance was stagnant. They had two big stories that moved the setting forward, and then everything else was either concurrent to those stories, or set at some point in the past. The Realms was, at that time, going thru the Time of Troubles. Things were happening on Toril, and things weren't happening on Krynn. So I left Krynn behind and haven't looked back.

And I've not had a problem with change in the Realms, until we got to the point of having unexplained changes, the RSE-of-the-week trend, and then turning the setting into something I didn't recognize.

And I've seen enough of the discussions since then to feel confident in saying that no one was objecting to change, in general -- they were objecting to specific changes that were abrupt and arbitrary, instead of organic and additive.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Oct 2017 23:36:51
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6434 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2017 :  00:00:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I just really hate the idea Mulhorand and Unther came back and are now the same boring groups they were before.



I don't know Mulhorand, but that is what happened with Unther, actually...

I don't want to be rude or offend someone here, but that was the whole purpose of the Sundering: return to the whole the ideal Realms without changes, because people hate change.



First, let me say that you didn't offend me, but I think your perception is skewed because you don't have the whole viewpoint because you're looking in hindsight. By that, let me explain in the below.

So, Old Empires came out during 2nd edition. It introduces Gilgeam as still being alive in 1358 DR. In earth time, this is in 1990.

In 1996 earth time, Warriors and Priests of the Realms comes out, and in it, its still talking about Gilgeam ruling and like he's still alive. I'd have to really dig, but GENERALLY this would imply that Gilgeam was still alive into the 1360's.

In 1997 earth time, the 2nd edition Powers and Pantheons comes out. In it, we're told that at SOME POINT AFTER THE ToT BUT BEFORE 1370 DR, when Gilgeam is a full fledged god, he and Tiamat go at one another for a second time (having previously fought during the ToT, and Gilgeam slew Tiamat). Gilgeam is killed (because he is much weakened due to lack of worshippers compared to before ToT) but he also kills Tiamat's avatar again. It specifically says that she goes silent to her worshippers, but that she's "slowly coming back" (which of course makes some wonder WHO is coming back).

So, then 3rd edition comes out, and Gilgeam is DEAD. Unther is in chaos. There's factions trying to gain control, and there's outsiders pushing their influence. We immediately lead off 3rd edition with Mulhorand realizing that their former treaty with the gods of Unther is now invalid, and the Mulhorandi are trying to seize Unther. Meanwhile, Mulhorand's enemy, Thay, is providing aid to those who would oppose Mulhorand. Also, the Red Knight's influence is spreading into Mulhorand, since the "Gold Swords" mercenary company is aiding the clergy of Anhur. This is seen by the Pharaoh of Mulhorand actually taking the advice of a female paladin of the red knight to A) allow women to work the same jobs as men, since the men are off to war and B) restructure the inheritance laws to be more equitable among all siblings. Also, with Gilgeam gone, Bane's influence is growing, primarily from the largest temple of Bane in Faerun that was in a former enemy of Unther... the city of Mourktar in Threskel just to Unther's northern border (also a city which houses much worship of Assuran/Hoar the Doombringer... also an Untherite exile with a beef with Anhur, since Assuran killed Ramman, but Anhur got the portfolios). Then of course, there was also Tiamat, the Northern Wizards, and other factions.

So, as you can see, in 3rd edition, Unther was a melting pot of intrigue, plots, wars, etc... However, it got very little attention until just before 4th edition in which they started talking about the Mulhorandi influence gaining, followers of Bahamut arriving (in the form of dragonborn who were humans who changed themselves into dragonborn), and a focus on Tiamat, Tchazzar, and the dracolich and other undead dragons of Threskel. You will note, Gilgeam's not a big influence in this.

Then 4th edition happens maybe a year to a year and a half later, and everything that had been getting built up to happen is just thrown out. Ironically, the place that was Unther has dragonborn... but its not the dragonborn we knew about that were humans who had changed themselves and followed Bahamut. In fact, these dragonborn are notedly agnostic, and all the storylines we had been building up were just GONE. Mulhorand isn't around as this reborn empire. Threskel is screwed up as well, since Mourktar is gone. Messemprar is gone. They also messed with Chessenta, essentially throwing out all the cool city states, and keeping only the one that was previously full of insane people (Luthcheq)..... and instead make them all sane now.

So, with 5e, what do we have? We have the people of Unther returning. They were following "the Son of Victory" simply because he was willing to stand up against their oppressors. However, many found his methods distasteful (consorting with demons for instance), and they've instead joined with the dragonborn of the city of Tymanther to stand up against him.

We don't know the exact situation of Unther, but I'd be willing to bet that Mourktar and Messemprar are back. Many of us are wondering about who exactly is "the Son of Victory". He might be Gilgeam. He might be Bane (there was the artifact known as the Black Lord's Cloak in Mourktar, if Mourktar did in fact transfer to Abeir). He might even be Iyachtu Xvim for those who believe that Bane himself did in fact return in 3e. He could also be a hidden son of Gilgeam's (though it was rumored that Gilgeam specifically avoided fathering children). Hell, since he is calling himself the "Son of Victory" we may even find out that he's the son of the red knight paladin, Kendera Steeldice, and a former incarnation of Anhur (both gods of war) or something similar and he's duping the Untherites (though that would be a little cheesy).... or even that Kendera Steeldice birthed a child of Gilgeam's (and some may even believe that the red knight is Inanna... which adds an odd twist, given the stories revolving around Gilgamesh and Inanna).

In the end though, we have a tyrannical individual trying to rebuild Unther. However, we also have a nearby empire of Mulhorand which previously was forced to serve the tyrant of Shyr but who also ruled these Untherites. So, we may see another war happening between Unther and Mulhorand. The whole region is becoming a boiling point, with Akanul, Chessenta, possibly "Returned Chessenta" (in my version anyway), Tymanther, Unther, Mulhorand, Threskel, the giants of the black ash plains, and in my version the tharch of Peleveran and possibly a new land replacing the maw of the godswallower.... such that Gilgeam's "return" is just a small piece of the pie and he can be the focus of a small campaign to stop.




Oh, and I forgot one big piece here, in that GHotR does a bit of a retcon for Gilgeam, because when Warriors and Priests of Realm comes out, the timeline was about 1368 DR roughly . So, the next earth year when Powers and Pantheons says that Gilgeam and Tiamat fought and Gilgeam is killed, theoretically that should have happened somewhere around 1368 to 1371 DR. GHotR combines the two combats that occurred (the one in which Gilgeam kills Tiamat during the ToT AND the one later where both Gilgeam and an avatar of Tiamat die). I may be incorrect here and maybe there's some other source that contradicts this, but I believe this to be the case.

Suffice it to say, the region has changed drastically in the past 27 year. However, one thing that made Unther different was that it had a ruler that may be tyrannical, but he's also very much more than mortal. Tyranny may be bad, but that's the point, is to setup a point of conflict to oppose. It can also make OTHER evils that are nearby look less oppressive as a result, which can open up some moral quandaries to explore. The big difference I see between Abeir and Toril is that in Toril, we have this small pocket with a tyrant. On Abeir, it appears from the descriptions that there's pretty much 90% tyranny and a small pocket of freedom fighters. Hell, in Abeir this Gilgeam WAS a "freedom fighter". In fact, as I think on it, even the freedom fighters of Tymanchebar seem to be "bound" to duties and codes and rituals..... making Abeir a helluva lot more skewed towards lawful than I had previously pictured.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14843 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2017 :  00:52:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I keep thinking the original Mulan were not 'pale skinned' because we KNOW where they came from. UNLESS we decide THEY were more 'Aryan' (who were a fair, Asiatic people - the word 'Caucasian' derives from the Caucus mountains; 'white people' are actually of ASIAN, not European descent).

This is why I am taking some of that RW prehistory and using it in The Realms. We have some pretty weird history (including Planetouched - asimar?) centered around the ancient fallen kingdom of Guge. the people 'from there' were apparently quite different then the folks from the surrounding lands. So now my thinking is that the Imakari were NOT a tribe of Durpari that wandered into the Raurin Basin, but rather, a group of fair-skinned, perhaps planetouched ('Spirit Folk') people that wandered west, across the mountains there. The mountain range around Khazari and Ra-Khati - the Katakoro Shan - formed a wall around their original kingdom, much like how Halruaa, or even Cormyr.

Which means... they didn't just get (some) of their knowledge from the Fey - they were literally descended from fey. The were like 100th generation Spiritfolk who were more human than faery. When the Fey fled the (mortal) world, they left behind their mortal children - the half-fey. A people who's racial memory of what they lost would lead them to discovering ways to 'travel the planes'. They didn't start-out as conquerors... they were just looking for a way to 'get home'.

I have to wonder now - in hindsight of 4e/5e - if the Black Diamond Affair was actually 'the first shot fired' in the Dawn War. The fey fled Abeir-Toril before the Sundering/Shattering of the First World. The Fey's intricate knowledge of 'The Balance' (nature) gave them a certain amount of foresight into future events, and they left before things got REALLY crazy. But they left their half-human children behind (along with tons of 'lesser fey' they had created). the last remnant of the Kingdom of Guge (in 2e) were insane; were they left with a psionically embedded impulse to "Find Us" by the Fey? The mortal travelers passing through parts of faerie (now the Feywild) in the old Moonshae novels had to be blindfolded, less they be 'driven mad by the infinite beauty of the fey realms'.

The bloodlines of the Imaskari had gotten so diluted down through the years that all that was left was a 'dull ache' to see things 'beyond this world'.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And I've seen enough of the discussions since then to feel confident in saying that no one was objecting to change, in general -- they were objecting to specific changes that were abrupt and arbitrary, instead of organic and additive.
RIGHT.

Just about everybody ('old' fans) wanted some sort of changes to occur in the Old Empires, and we were starting t see that, with Mulhorand's oh-so-slow takeover of Unther, and then WHAM, they just erased them, brought in a 'dead' race, and also a nation that was redundant with what they had already done in Calimshan.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
926 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  18:01:14  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey, sleyvas, do you have a compilation of the stuff you have shared about the Tarchs of Pelevarei? I wanted to wait for the Candlekanon to share my stuff in the Old Empires in some sort of shared universe (as a said before, I do like some cohesiveness between the different projects of people here), mostly because the Ckanon was going to deal with the current issues in the timeline, mostly the issue of the Tymanther-Unther War. And I am going to be honest: I'm biased. If left to me, Unther is going to lost the war. Is one the motives I wanted to share my stuff in a shared universe, as it would be a less biased Realmsverse. But as the CKanon seems to be on a void...

I remember you shared some good stuff about Chessenta that I like to include in my version of the Old Empires, but I cannot find those posts.

BTW, I hadn't thanked you for your post explaining the IRL timeline of the Old Empires. I need to get those sources.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Oct 2017 18:08:55
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6434 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  18:19:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Hey, sleyvas, do you have a compilation of the stuff you have shared about the Tarchs of Pelevarei? I wanted to wait for the Candlekanon to share my stuff in the Old Empires in some sort of shared universe (as a said before, I do like some cohesiveness between the different projects of people here), mostly because the Ckanon was going to deal with the current issues in the timeline (the Tymanther-Unther War). But as the CKanon seems to be on a void...

I remember you shared some good stuff about Chessenta that I like to include in my version of the Old Empires, but I cannot find those posts.

BTW, I hadn't thanked you for your post explaining the IRL timeline of the Old Empires. I need to get those sources.



I haven't gathered a lot of the stuff I've posted here. That being said a lot of it is morphing over time as I talk. I do have the Tharch of Peleveran stuff kind of like 80% done. My main thing is I need to get the overarching document done. By that, I mean I intend to release something called "The United Tharchs of Toril", and it will discuss in minor detail (but for several pages) each Tharch, some of its history, who its neighbors are, etc.... Then I plan to provide a map for each Tharch (with a disclaimer that the maps are subject to change due to the changing nature of the world ). Then at the same time I hope to release the first tharch.. that being Peleveran.

Of course, in the last two months, I've decided to include Laothkund as part of all of this. Also, I've decided to move the "red mineral forest of shyr" that I was previously putting where the "maw of entropy was" to instead be down around firetrees and the black ash plains in Unther.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6434 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  18:21:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here though is what I have written up for "Returned Cimbar" and "Returned Soorenar". I also want to write up something for Akanax, where I have it that when Akanax comes back, its still a city of warriors... but instead its two rulers are a Crintri noble (elf/drow/human blooded female) who for a short time served as the "weakened avatar" of Inanna in love with a human who for a short time served as the "weakened avatar" of Ramman. The population will include humans, wood elves, drow, and half elves of both drow, wood, and "crintri" stock, plus centaurs and wemics. Oh, and these drow will be followers of Eilistraee (sp?) who were in Chondath, not the evil drow. The evil drow will be down in Peleveran, but mostly as captured slaves serving the OTHER crintri in Peleveran. Perhaps even this crintri female was impregnated by the human while both were "avatars", and nine months later they produced a child (children?) while mortal.

Cimbar (approx population 64,000, roughly 45% human, 35% dragonborn, 15% genasi, and 5% other races)
Notable Individuals/Residents:
Rashazar Vinkeshkmal (dragonborn male sorceror, Autharch managing the city),
Description Chessenta has long been a center of learning and free will. Once the capital of Chessenta and the seat of power of the dragon king Tchazzar, in the years leading up to the spellplague, its people were ruled over directly by the wyrm turned deity after his return in 1373 DR. Initially, this return of their hero king was seen with great joy, reverence, and a desire to extend his will throughout Chessenta. However, after more than a decade under the servitude of a somewhat mad god king, many of the people of Cimbar were beginning to resent their new master. Tchazzar did not truly appreciate their rich culture nor did he see the humans of Cimbar as anything other than servants to enact his edicts. Then came the spellplague and the majority of Old Cimbar, minus the College of Sages and the College of Mages, stayed in Toril was fell into ruins. However, the majority of what was commonly referred to as New Cimbar, with its residences, thriving shops, clean port facilities, theaters, Thayan trade enclave, and the famed Hippodrome all transferred to Abeir.

For many of the people of Cimbar, after they got past their initial shock, they embraced this new world. They were free of the yoke of their former dragon lord and could pursue establishing their own lives again. Of course, there were two major problems that they would have to deal with. First, the genasi of Shyr and their primordial ruler, Karshimis.

In the weeks following the spellplague, these genasi had overwhelmed the transferred city of Airspur, forcing its remaining population to flee to Cimbar, its traditional enemy. In addition, much of the population of Akanax, also a traditional enemy of Cimbar, and many surrounding villages had also transferred to Abeir. Many of them were without homes, for either their residences had not transferred, or they had fallen apart during said transfer. Despite this, the people of Cimbar welcomed their fellow Chessentans with open arms.

Also, the genasi of Shyr had assaulted the city of Reth, slaughtering nearly half their population and breaking down their fortifications. The genasi paid heavily for their assault, however, losing ten times these numbers and being forced to retreat. The gladiators of Reth organized the remaining populace in the days that followed after being contacted by the Thayan enclave in nearby Hlath. The red wizards of the Hlath enclave had discovered that their portal connecting to Cimbar was still working. The people of Reth travelled to Hlath, and over the next few months slowly sent tens of thousands of Chessentans to the city of Cimbar.

This portal would remain active, and a small force was sent to magically hide the city of Hlath from prying eyes, and periodically small lumber crews travelled through it to log the nearby forest of Nun, for the city of Cimbar was in desperate need of wood. About a year into their logging, these lumber crews ran across the Autunuk tribe of hybsil being assaulted by genasi. Taking axe in hand, the Chessentans slew these genasi and led the hybsil to the portal in Hlath. It was actually some of these hybsil that made the recommendation to seek out new land in the Shaar. The hybsil had been in contact magically with a centaur shaman who had reported that much of the eastern Shaar, primarily the area that the Ilythiiri had once called home, had transferred as well, and that it had not been invaded by outside forces as yet.

When members of the Thayan trade enclave began discussing travelling south into the Shaar to seek a new homeland, many individuals were attracted by the prospect. In particular it drew the attention of the displaced Mulan population of Unther, which had fled the Mulhorandi armies to seek a new home in Chessenta, only to be treated as second class citizens in the decade after their arrival. Also, many of the Chessentans that had been displaced from Akanax and Airspur saw this as an opportunity to have lands holdings of their own upon which they could rebuild. It was Zulkir Lauzoril that proposed checking out the ancient cliffside city of Peleverai as a possible point of relocation. Luckily for them all, when the land had transferred to Abeir, there was another local river in the mountains that stood where the great rift would be on Toril, and this river fed into the underground river path that became the River Shaar on Toril. It would take nearly a decade to prepare the ruined city and fully move everyone

The next issue came eight years after the spellplague, when an aspiring dragon lord led an army of dragonborn to take the city of Cimbar, only to discover that the resident red wizards and the people of Cimbar were not open to rulership by a dragon again. Having uncovered many of the secrets to adapting magic use in Abeir, the dragon lord was slain without a single dragonborn life being taken by Zulkirs Lauzoril, Yaphyll, and Mythrell'aa and Tharchioness Dmitra Flass. Its skull, having been gilded in gold and gems, still decorates one of the waterfall spouts along the walls of the Peleveria Gorge.

Having heard of the dragonborn of a nearby nation known as Tymanchebar, the citizens of Cimbar offered the dragonborn army of the dead dragon lord a choice. They could survive, but they would have to swear allegiance to the city of Cimbar against their former dragon lords, or they could die. Nearly all of them chose freedom, and even as the humans moved south into Peleveria, the dragonborn stayed in the city which had granted them their first taste of liberty. This is why the population of Cimbar to this day contains such a large population of dragonborn. Over time, the city would also attract rebel genasi seeking freedom from Shyr as well, such that the city of Cimbar that left Toril is very different from the one that has returned.

Over time, these dragonborn and genasi immigrants have studied the gathered lore of Cimbar that was left behind. As a result, many have discovered the art of the bard. Many others have discovered the art of the sorcerer due to the natural tendencies within their blood, but none are accepted as red wizards. This has caused some enmity with these races, who see no path of advancement for themselves in the red wizard's hierarchy.

Although ostensibly still a part of the United Tharchs of Toril, since their return to Toril, this city and its residents have discussed breaking away and seeking their own path. The genasi suggest joining with the nearby nation of Akanul, for in them they see kindred spirits. Many of the dragonborn would like to discuss making alliances with Tymanther, but they do not want to abandon their beautiful home. However, they all recognize that Tchazzar's influence still exists, through a mortal incarnation of his own blood ruling in the nearby city of Erebos. There are even rumors that the god-king himself still exists in some spirit dragon form, and that he looks upon his former city with much greed and perhaps even hope. What exactly the dragon-king may have left behind in Cimbar when it transferred to Abeir has become the source of much speculation by the people of Cimbar.

Soorenar (approx population 32,000, of which nearly 18,000 are sentient undead that appear as normal members of the populace, the remaining populace is roughly 60% human (primarily Chondathan, Mulan, and Turami), 35% genasi, and 5% other races )
Notable Individuals/Residents:
Lord Thurash Karanok (Autharch managing the city),
Description Soorenar was one of the transferred lands that travelled from Toril to Abeir and back again. While it was gone, it was believed to be sunk beneath the River Akax and the Adder Swamp (which was renamed Sebakar). There were indeed large portions of the city which were left behind during the spellplague, as the city as a whole did not transfer over, but rather large portions of it did. Also, much of the population that did transfer over was killed, as sections of unsupported wall collapsed and crushed them. Many of these fallen Chessentans now protect the city as sentient undead who remember their past lives and appear as they did just prior to their deaths. As a result, many of them feel a kinship to their remaining descendants and will protect them at all costs.

Soorenar had always been a city divided by the river Akax, with its eastern shores being home to docking facilities, warehouses, and various amenities for the sailor, traveller, or mercenary. The western shore held the standing population and was more heavily guarded. However, when the transfer to Abeir occurred much of the western city is what was destroyed. Also, the source of the river Akax disappeared, leaving the main source of water being a portion of the Bay of Chessenta that transferred with the city. As a result, over the past century, the majority of the city has moved to surround the former port city, oftentimes stripping the old city to rebuild in or strengthen in the new area. However, as a result of the lack of available drinking water, many of the former residents of this city were some of the first to travel down into the Shaar. As time passed, this city has welcomed many genasi who seek to escape the tyranny of Shyr, particularly those with an earth or water affinity due to their abilities to provide water or help build. Many of these genasi were actually led here by a sentient undead ancestor, often in the form of a ghostly apparition, which appeared to them and told them of a land of freedom. Most of these genasi reside in the older western portion of Chessenta, and this portion of Soorenar bears less of the trappings of undeath which has become common for this city, though many are still protected by the spirits or corporeal dead bodies of their ancestors.

Prior to travelling to Abeir, Soorenar was a city of Chessenta that catered to outside spellcasters to come and strengthen them militarily. For this reason, the mortal Velsharoon built his Tower Terrible on the outskirts of the port city of eastern Soorenar. Following his rise to godhood, this residence attracted many followers of Velsharoon, and a large temple catering to practictioners of necromancy was established. This temple was soon surrounded by merchants catering to wizards and priests and the numbers of spellcasters of all sorts in Soorenar swelled, particularly amongst the Mulan populace which was displaced by the war between Unther and Mulhorand. After the transfer to Abeir, this complex has become the heart of Soorenar, with thousands of sentient undead, necromancers, and priests set to guard the Tower Terrible, which all were forbidden to enter. In fact, one of the earliest instances of godly interaction with mortals was when Zulkirs Yaphyll and Mythrell'aa, claiming to be the avatars of Savras and Leira, arrived in Soorenar to enter the Tower Terrible with Mimuay, the daughter of Lauzoril, and several other individuals (see previous accountings for more detail). While in Abeir, lights were periodically seen within the tower, and many believed that the manifestation of Velsharoon resided in the dwelling when he was not gone doing the work of a god.

Also, as a result of trade negotiations, the red wizards of Thay had established a trade enclave in Soorenar, and during the Thayan civil war, Zulkir Lauzoril had secretly setup a residence in this trade enclave when his daughter, Mimuay, was approached by followers of Velsharoon who promised to support the Zulkirs in their fight against Szass Tam. Lauzoril moved his entire family to Soorenar to protect them from the machinations of his fellow red wizards as he helped lead the rebellion from Bezantur (for more on this, read the entries for Zulkir Lauzoril and Zulkir Mimuay).

Traditionally, this city was lead by a council of nobles from three noble families. The residence of one of these noble families did not transfer to Abeir, and the leaders of another noble house were amongst those who travelled south to the Shaar. This left the Karanok family, who bear some long ago bloodlines to the Karanoks of Luthcheq, but do not bear that family's devotion to Entropy or hatred of wizards. Many of the Chessentans who remained in Soorenar come from this noble house or the servants and mercenaries who supported them. Of the remaining human population, many of them were divine servants loyal to the worship of Velsharoon whose descendants have since become an integral part of the makeup of this city.

With its return to Toril, Soorenar finds that things are not exactly as they once were. Although they once again exist directly on the coast of the Bay of Chessenta, the roads that once connected them to Eastern Chessenta are long washed away. The western shore of the river Akax sees some work being performed to rebuild amongst its ruins, particularly in the old Karanok family lands which had been looted over the past century but not destroyed. Reconstruction of its ports, as well as the building of ships, is underway. In fact, the wily people of Soorenar have actually acquired at least four ships by placing what appear to be bountiful trade ships afloat in the inner sea whilst setting a trap for the inevitable pirates that will come to harass them.

Directly to its south, a swampland known as both Sebakar and the Adder Swamp holds sway, though many cartographers believe that the sundering reduced the size of this swamp significantly, sinking much of it once again to the bottom of the bay of Chessenta. This sinking caused the death of numerous lizard folk, wererats, and werecrocodiles, but oddly these deaths seem to have only strengthened Soorenar. The northernmost borders of the Sebakar swamp are now patrolled by undead lizard folk and humanoid skeletons that resemble humans, ratmen, and crocodile headed beings in service to Velsharoon. These are simple undead rather than the awakened undead which provide the majority of the city's population, and while they number over a thousand, they are not reflected in the city's population.

This swamp has further affected Soorenar since its return, as the river Akax flows directly through it. While it flows fast enough that it doesn't generally become overly polluted, the city has begun to build reservoirs in order to magically boil and remove contaminants from the drinking supply. The city has also begun the construction of irrigation ditches to enrich the surrounding soil for farming, and they hope that this will decrease the size of the swampland in coming years and hopefully make that land suitable for settlement as well someday soon.

Since their return to Toril, Aulkir Ythazz Buvaar, a demilich integral to the formation of the Zulkirate of Thay, has been released from his assigned role as protector of Soorenar. It is known that his eyes have turned once again to Thay and Szass Tam. It is also said that he seeks information on the whereabouts of Xingax's laboratories in the Sunrise Mountains and the foothills of the Thaymounts, as well as information on what was done with the aborted godflesh. In the past century, he is purported to have created at least four powerful skeleton warriors from the bodies of genasi warlords of Shyr sent to invade Soorenar, and he controls these warriors via gems in a circlet surrounding him as his personal bodyguards. Several high ranking priests of Velsharoon are said to support Ythazz Buvaar in these endeavours.

Finally, with the return to Toril, the city-state of Laothkund, formerly an outlying holding of the Tharch of Pelevar, has been given its own autonomy when Zulkir Lallara Mediocros appeared. After a meeting held in secrecy with Zulkirs Lauzoril and Mimuay Tavai, Aulkir Dmitra Flass, and Thulkir Nyasia Tavi, Lallara Mediocros declared that she would align the other cities of the wizard's reach (in particular the city of Escalant, but also the smaller villages of Murbant, Taskaunt, and Lasdur, and the town of Tilbrand which had been rebuilt since the salamander wars) into a new Tharch if she were accepted as Zulkir of Abjuration within the United Tharchs of Toril and be allowed to oversee the election of the Aulkirs. While the other Zulkirs could not cast down their fellow Zulkir, they did arrange for a spell duel between the current Zulkir of Abjuration and Lallara, which Lallara did win and thus become the new Zulkir of Abjuration. It is said that Lallara and Ythazz Buvaar are in talks about having the city of Soorenar also secede from the Tharch of Pelevar and join the newly formed Tharch of the Wizard's Reach. While many would think that this would upset the Pelevari, in truth many of the people of Peleveran find Ythazz Buvaar distasteful, and they know the city to be well beyond their area of control, and so this transition may occur with little to no issues.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 21 Oct 2017 18:39:25
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  18:24:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're in the same boat as me - your personal lore changes faster than you can compile it into anything coherent.

The price of genius, I suppose.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2017 18:24:52
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  18:27:46  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And I've seen enough of the discussions since then to feel confident in saying that no one was objecting to change, in general -- they were objecting to specific changes that were abrupt and arbitrary, instead of organic and additive.



And I acknowledge and can understand that. But the solution isn't to return to a point of the story and undoing every development until that point because reasons, and make as if 4e never happened. Heck, even the geography returned to what was before, without a proper explanation.

At this point, it was better to do a reboot and retcon, than to follow a timeline that makes even less sense than in 4e.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  18:37:08  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks!

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, I've decided to move the "red mineral forest of shyr" that I was previously putting where the "maw of entropy was" to instead be down around firetrees and the black ash plains in Unther.



That is an excellent position. If not for nothing else, because that area wasn't touched in 4e, so you a have a region totally "lore-free" for a century to do whatever you want there. The red forest can be there since the Spellplague, in fact. You just have to explain why the dragonborn never went there, but that is easier that the whole lot of plotholes that can arise if you put it in Chessenta. You can even say that the dragonborn always knew about it, but Elminster never told us that fact.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1181 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  18:42:18  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I keep thinking the original Mulan were not 'pale skinned' because we KNOW where they came from. UNLESS we decide THEY were more 'Aryan' (who were a fair, Asiatic people - the word 'Caucasian' derives from the Caucus mountains; 'white people' are actually of ASIAN, not European descent).

This is why I am taking some of that RW prehistory and using it in The Realms. We have some pretty weird history (including Planetouched - asimar?) centered around the ancient fallen kingdom of Guge. the people 'from there' were apparently quite different then the folks from the surrounding lands. So now my thinking is that the Imakari were NOT a tribe of Durpari that wandered into the Raurin Basin, but rather, a group of fair-skinned, perhaps planetouched ('Spirit Folk') people that wandered west, across the mountains there. The mountain range around Khazari and Ra-Khati - the Katakoro Shan - formed a wall around their original kingdom, much like how Halruaa, or even Cormyr.

Which means... they didn't just get (some) of their knowledge from the Fey - they were literally descended from fey. The were like 100th generation Spiritfolk who were more human than faery. When the Fey fled the (mortal) world, they left behind their mortal children - the half-fey. A people who's racial memory of what they lost would lead them to discovering ways to 'travel the planes'. They didn't start-out as conquerors... they were just looking for a way to 'get home'.

I have to wonder now - in hindsight of 4e/5e - if the Black Diamond Affair was actually 'the first shot fired' in the Dawn War. The fey fled Abeir-Toril before the Sundering/Shattering of the First World. The Fey's intricate knowledge of 'The Balance' (nature) gave them a certain amount of foresight into future events, and they left before things got REALLY crazy. But they left their half-human children behind (along with tons of 'lesser fey' they had created). the last remnant of the Kingdom of Guge (in 2e) were insane; were they left with a psionically embedded impulse to "Find Us" by the Fey? The mortal travelers passing through parts of faerie (now the Feywild) in the old Moonshae novels had to be blindfolded, less they be 'driven mad by the infinite beauty of the fey realms'.

The bloodlines of the Imaskari had gotten so diluted down through the years that all that was left was a 'dull ache' to see things 'beyond this world'.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And I've seen enough of the discussions since then to feel confident in saying that no one was objecting to change, in general -- they were objecting to specific changes that were abrupt and arbitrary, instead of organic and additive.
RIGHT.

Just about everybody ('old' fans) wanted some sort of changes to occur in the Old Empires, and we were starting t see that, with Mulhorand's oh-so-slow takeover of Unther, and then WHAM, they just erased them, brought in a 'dead' race, and also a nation that was redundant with what they had already done in Calimshan.



If one looks at the Mulan gods tells you how much of a mixed race they were to begin with.

Assuran (Assyrian), Ishtar (Babylonian), Ianna (Summerian), Ra (Egyptian), Anhur (Sudanese/Kush, later adopted by Egyptians), Set (wasn't depicted as evil until he got adapted by the Hykos [Caanite invaders] and equated with Baal [the Caanite God, not the Faerun God]). During the 22 Dynasty Bast was very popular with the Meshwar Tribe of Libyans when they moved the capital of Egypt to Bubastis (Bast's holy city). Bast also appears to have absorbed some of the mythose of a Sudanese Lion Goddess who was Anhur's wife, who was known to wander away (like Sharess does) only for him to fetch her.

All these groups mixed together to form the Mulan, interbred with the Imaskari, separated into the Untherites and Mulhorandi, the Untherites split off into the Chessentans and other groups (Chessentans interbreeding with the Chondathans), and the lower classes of the Milan interbreeding with the Turami.

So race wise that is Black, White, and limited Asian blood.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 21 Oct 2017 :  19:13:53  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and in the above, where I say that Akanax will have drow following E... it will be that they believe that Inanna is in fact E. Also, the wood elves will believe that Inanna is a reborn aspect of Zandilar the Dancer (whom I will be saying that the wood elves of Chondath have been convinced that Zandilar and E have been the same deity for a while....). Meanwhile, some folk of faerun will believe that Inanna is just another face of Sharess. I personally intend to make this a part of the write-up and left a mystery. However, the temple of Inanna will have shrines to all four deities.

I also want some of the "wood elves" to be shape shifters like Lythari... but I don't want wolves. I'm thinking of having them shapechange into giant stags OR horses. I intend that over the last hundred years, that the forest grew up around Akanax a bit more, such that it is a cleared area in the center of a wooded copse surrounding it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 22 Oct 2017 :  22:26:09  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ianna in FR is lawful evil and Zandilar Chaotic Good. I'd think Lovitar would be a letter fit, honestly, similar out looks.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 22 Oct 2017 :  23:56:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Ianna in FR is lawful evil and Zandilar Chaotic Good. I'd think Lovitar would be a letter fit, honestly, similar out looks.



Yes, my take on Inanna may lean her more towards lawful neutral, as many of the stories of her don't make her out to be necessarily evil (some things she does are for the good of others). However, that will ALSO be one of the "heresies" is that some believe Loviatar to be Inanna. In particular, the fact that on Abeir a Crintri becomes the weakened avatar of Inanna (noting that the Crintri favored Loviatar) pushes this envelope. However, said Crintri female herself does tell the following that they are in fact two different entities.

It should be noted as well that Loviatar IS portrayed in the role that Inanna fulfilled (going to the Underworld to tell Cyric to release "her sister".... and it doesn't name the sister) in the Complete Book of Necromancers (and using the name of the underworld that Inanna's mythology used). For some, they would say that this sister is Kiputytto. But is this perhaps modern liars twisting the story of Inanna descending to the Underworld to meet her sister, Ereshkigal.

In the end, my goal isn't to say that X deity is Y deity. This allows this new pantheon to spread into Chessenta, Unther, and the eastern Shaar. It allows them to come back. This pantheon may even be able to expand into other nearby areas such as Dambrath, Tymanther, Akanul, the wizards' reach, and even Durpar and the other countries of the Shining South (minus Luiren and Dambrath). Thus, the Faerunian Pantheon may have Loviatar... and the Untheric has Inanna. Some will say they are the same. Some will say they are different. In the end, it does weaken the hold of the Faerunian Pantheon. Some deities may cross into both pantheons. The truth? Leaving it open.

By the way, this pantheon that I pose to include isn't a Babylonian/Sumerian pantheon. It contains members of both, but it will bring back other deities which will cause conflicts (for instance, deities from other Tharchs). For instance, some other members of the Crintri will have taken to worshipping Kiga the Predator, a "dead" panther goddess of Zakhara whose portfolios include bloodlust and hunting. Given that her chief priestess is Crintri and given that she's of the royal blood of Dambrath... which has been taken over by male followers of Malar... you can see where that conflict is headed.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 23 Oct 2017 :  03:19:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And I've seen enough of the discussions since then to feel confident in saying that no one was objecting to change, in general -- they were objecting to specific changes that were abrupt and arbitrary, instead of organic and additive.



And I acknowledge and can understand that. But the solution isn't to return to a point of the story and undoing every development until that point because reasons, and make as if 4e never happened. Heck, even the geography returned to what was before, without a proper explanation.

At this point, it was better to do a reboot and retcon, than to follow a timeline that makes even less sense than in 4e.



I was not commenting on the solution. I was addressing the "people hate change" comment.

I still feel that the ideal solution would have been to split the Realms into two settings, the Sundered Realms and the Forgotten Realms. Take the Forgotten Realms forward from right before the Spellplague, and let it evolve in a new direction, and let the Sundered Realms go off from the Spellplague and the time jump.

I think this would have kept both camps happy, and still don't understand why the idea was so strongly opposed when I first suggested it. (Actually, I have a suspicion about it, but I'll not voice it).

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 23 Oct 2017 :  03:37:52  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My theory is because the Spellplague would still be a thing, and the people that hate the changes the Spellplague brought (the good and the ill, they just hate them all) don't wanted that. The current solution also makes the Spellplague a thing, but is downplayed enough that is as if never happened, and that pleased at least some people.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Oct 2017 03:38:53
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 23 Oct 2017 :  06:42:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I still feel that the ideal solution would have been to split the Realms into two settings, the Sundered Realms and the Forgotten Realms. Take the Forgotten Realms forward from right before the Spellplague, and let it evolve in a new direction, and let the Sundered Realms go off from the Spellplague and the time jump.

I think this would have kept both camps happy, and still don't understand why the idea was so strongly opposed when I first suggested it. (Actually, I have a suspicion about it, but I'll not voice it).

Mostly, because right now they want to combine all the settings together, not split the fanbase further.

The one thing nearly every other company does as a rule (that TSR couldn't learn so they tanked so bad they went under) was "One rules, one setting". In the beginning TSR did that. Blackmoor went with chainmail. OD&D went with 'The Known World' (which later became Mystara), and when 'Advanced' (1e) came out, it was Greyhawk. We didn't have discussions about 'what canon applies to what setting', and the whole idea of something in the rulebooks not applying to the setting because it was 'core' was alien to us. Everything in the 1e rulebooks applied to GH, no questions asked.

Then in 2e they started publishing other settings, which probably seemed like a good idea at the time. To us, it was a godsend, because we got The Forgotten Realms (and those Dragonlancers got their stuff). And something strange happened - the 'core' setting was no longer THE setting - FR became more popular than GH. That means they were producing rulebooks for for their less-popular setting, and nothing directly for their most popular setting (rules-wise). Then 3e came around and they started producing FR-specific rulebooks, but you still needed the core books... which were for a setting they were no longer even supporting! Its just got weird. Basicaly, you were forced to buy rulebooks for a setting you weren't playing in, and then you had to not only buy the lorebooks for that setting, but also rulebooks that were nothing more than 'glorified errata' for the setting (because toward the end of 3e there, for each 'core' book we got with a concept, a similar, FR-specific book came out telling us how to apply the rules in the other book to the Realms, specifically. For example, 'Book of Vile darkness' = Champions of Ruin. We started having to buy them in pairs, because they were still producing books about a setting no-one was playing! ('Core', or GH)

It was a complete mess. No other company was dealing with that - if it was in their rulebooks, it applies to their setting. That was it. No need to double-dip from the customers for each new concept. Then 4e comes along, and that got rid of all that. They weren't doing any other settings (they may license them, or let others license the rules for their own settings, but they stuck to "one rules, one setting", or "One rules to rule them all", which was actually a 4e mantra for awhile). Sadly, that mantra may have worked better in 3e, with the OGL (D20).

So now what we have is a mega-setting, or rather, an omni-setting, that includes ALL the other official settings, and ALL the rules apply across the board, because its just one setting. One setting, many worlds (and planes). I don't need to question whether Iggwilv is FR canon - of course she is! It doesn't matter if she from Oerth (and 'nocked boots with Grazzt to give birth to luvable little Iuz). Hell, I was just reading yesterday that in one 4e article, she was even mentioned as having a part in Waukeen's kidnapping... but none of that matters. She would have been 'FR canon' regardless, because now it is all one canon.

Bane still need to have the kinks knocked out of him, but he seem to be the only one stuck with this whole 'core' or 'FR' thing. I think just saying 'The Bane' is an archtype that many worlds have is a simple solution, but what do I know. FR had an opening, and that guy we know applied for the job, end of story. Even DC comics and SW have their 'Banes' (Marvel Comics: "But we have a Hulk!")

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Oct 2017 06:49:38
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 23 Oct 2017 :  12:09:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I still feel that the ideal solution would have been to split the Realms into two settings, the Sundered Realms and the Forgotten Realms. Take the Forgotten Realms forward from right before the Spellplague, and let it evolve in a new direction, and let the Sundered Realms go off from the Spellplague and the time jump.

I think this would have kept both camps happy, and still don't understand why the idea was so strongly opposed when I first suggested it. (Actually, I have a suspicion about it, but I'll not voice it).

Mostly, because right now they want to combine all the settings together, not split the fanbase further.

The one thing nearly every other company does as a rule (that TSR couldn't learn so they tanked so bad they went under) was "One rules, one setting". In the beginning TSR did that. Blackmoor went with chainmail. OD&D went with 'The Known World' (which later became Mystara), and when 'Advanced' (1e) came out, it was Greyhawk. We didn't have discussions about 'what canon applies to what setting', and the whole idea of something in the rulebooks not applying to the setting because it was 'core' was alien to us. Everything in the 1e rulebooks applied to GH, no questions asked.

Then in 2e they started publishing other settings, which probably seemed like a good idea at the time. To us, it was a godsend, because we got The Forgotten Realms (and those Dragonlancers got their stuff). And something strange happened - the 'core' setting was no longer THE setting - FR became more popular than GH. That means they were producing rulebooks for for their less-popular setting, and nothing directly for their most popular setting (rules-wise). Then 3e came around and they started producing FR-specific rulebooks, but you still needed the core books... which were for a setting they were no longer even supporting! Its just got weird. Basicaly, you were forced to buy rulebooks for a setting you weren't playing in, and then you had to not only buy the lorebooks for that setting, but also rulebooks that were nothing more than 'glorified errata' for the setting (because toward the end of 3e there, for each 'core' book we got with a concept, a similar, FR-specific book came out telling us how to apply the rules in the other book to the Realms, specifically. For example, 'Book of Vile darkness' = Champions of Ruin. We started having to buy them in pairs, because they were still producing books about a setting no-one was playing! ('Core', or GH)

It was a complete mess. No other company was dealing with that - if it was in their rulebooks, it applies to their setting. That was it. No need to double-dip from the customers for each new concept. Then 4e comes along, and that got rid of all that. They weren't doing any other settings (they may license them, or let others license the rules for their own settings, but they stuck to "one rules, one setting", or "One rules to rule them all", which was actually a 4e mantra for awhile). Sadly, that mantra may have worked better in 3e, with the OGL (D20).

So now what we have is a mega-setting, or rather, an omni-setting, that includes ALL the other official settings, and ALL the rules apply across the board, because its just one setting. One setting, many worlds (and planes). I don't need to question whether Iggwilv is FR canon - of course she is! It doesn't matter if she from Oerth (and 'nocked boots with Grazzt to give birth to luvable little Iuz). Hell, I was just reading yesterday that in one 4e article, she was even mentioned as having a part in Waukeen's kidnapping... but none of that matters. She would have been 'FR canon' regardless, because now it is all one canon.

Bane still need to have the kinks knocked out of him, but he seem to be the only one stuck with this whole 'core' or 'FR' thing. I think just saying 'The Bane' is an archtype that many worlds have is a simple solution, but what do I know. FR had an opening, and that guy we know applied for the job, end of story. Even DC comics and SW have their 'Banes' (Marvel Comics: "But we have a Hulk!")



Let us not forget as well, when chainmail and OD&D and even the start of AD&D and dragonlance came about, MOST of us had no means to actually get together and converse like we have today. So, the writers at that time had it easier from a feedback perspective, as the only way for most people to do anything was to try and get a Dragon Article done. America Online, even for its short span, changed D&D a lot, because for the first time for a lot of us, we could connect easier. The fact that they made a special forum just for D&D made us all feel connected. Then, at least for me, came the realms-L list. Then, at least for me, came here. I never got into TSR's/WotC's web site much.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14843 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2017 :  19:44:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I went from AOL to WotC - I skipped right over the Realms-L list, unfortunately.

I tried here and didn't like it (I though it was too snobbish, to be honest). But then WotC shut down their forums and I was homeless... so I guess Candlekeep became my Soup Kitchen.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
926 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2017 :  21:29:44  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I only knew the WotC forums, and I was not very active there. From there to the Piazza after a looooong hiatus, and then here.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30617 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  04:35:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I still feel that the ideal solution would have been to split the Realms into two settings, the Sundered Realms and the Forgotten Realms. Take the Forgotten Realms forward from right before the Spellplague, and let it evolve in a new direction, and let the Sundered Realms go off from the Spellplague and the time jump.

I think this would have kept both camps happy, and still don't understand why the idea was so strongly opposed when I first suggested it. (Actually, I have a suspicion about it, but I'll not voice it).

Mostly, because right now they want to combine all the settings together, not split the fanbase further.


This wasn't a recent suggestion. This was something I put forward right after the 4E FR book came out -- so when the fanbase was already at its most fractured point, I suggested a way to keep both sides happy. And people came crawling out of the woodwork to attack my idea, saying things like giving both sides exactly what they want was somehow kicking one side to the curb and ignoring them, or that there was no way a game company could ever support two settings, and things like that.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30617 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  04:37:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

My theory is because the Spellplague would still be a thing, and the people that hate the changes the Spellplague brought (the good and the ill, they just hate them all) don't wanted that. The current solution also makes the Spellplague a thing, but is downplayed enough that is as if never happened, and that pleased at least some people.



My idea was that there would be a Realms where the Spellplague didn't happen, keeping the anti-Spellplague people happy, and that there would be a Realms where it did happen, keeping the pro-Spellplague people happy. So both sides of the debate would have had a supported version of the Realms that they liked.

And judging by the reaction I got at the time, this was, inexplicably, one of the worst ideas ever.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Oct 2017 04:41:46
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
926 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  05:04:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now I'm curious.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14843 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2017 :  05:36:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because it wasn't just the Spellplague itself - and all the new lore 4e brought - that people hated.

They HATED the people who liked it (there are still a couple of those floating around). Thus, any sort of compromise was out-of-the-question - they didn't want 4e Realms supported at all - they wanted it GONE; all the products burned and 'struck from the records'.

I suppose people felt 'threatened' by it, and then I step back an look at America's current political climate and realize the 'edition wars' was just the start of a much larger 'social movement'.

It would have never mattered how much material they produced for 'Plagueless FR', Wooly, or how good it was. So long as someone somewhere was playing with the material they did not like, people would have continued attacking 4e relentlessly. They took its very existence as a personal insult.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Oct 2017 05:37:51
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