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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2017 :  03:02:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, now that thats out of the way, honestly, I thought there'd be some responses in this thread, considering I made it because of the discussion going on here.

How much should I 'repair'? For the Old Empires I was thinking 'about halfway' (but not precisely - some places will keep their entire 4e coast/layout, while others will be put-back mostly how they were, and the rest, something in the middle. I think that sounds about right, considering what we do know (which isn't a lot).

But I had planned to put the rest - stuff outside the OE - back the way it was, fully. But maybe not? Should I get creative? Like, other then Ao snapped his fingers, why would rivers go back to their old courses? Did we loose hills in some places, and gain them in others? The Underchasm seems to have swallowed-up some, but the Maw of the Godswallower (why do I think of Sharess every time I see that?) did more, actually. If Ao (with Grumbar's help) put the physical mass of the earth back, did he put the terrain back precisely the way it was? Is the 'Maw' still there? What happened there is a bit different than what happened in the other locations...


And should I completely 'close' those as well? I kind of like the Landsmouth (but I'd make it MUCH smaller - narrower, at the very least). What about the Deep Maw (In Anauroch, next to the Fallen Lands)? Neither of those are on Mike Schley's 5e map, so should I just assume all that just up and disappeared? Strategically placed, both of those could prove useful (especially if I tweak their sizes).

Southern coast? Go halfway with that? 3/4 fixed? I kind of like Luiren with the islands, but I'd lose that big honkin' sea (The Dead Hin Sea - I created it, so I can loose it). I'm pretty sure I know how t go with most of that, but what about the Golden Waters? I always loved that region, and it got trashed. Even if it got fixed, the old settlements would have gotten ruined (I turned the area where the sea receded into a giant swamp - it makes up for the one we lost by Halruaa).

And how quickly did everything get 'repaired'? From what I understand, the Underchasm isn't finished being filled? Or am I remembering that wrong? I am picturing ships getting stranded miles inland , but that would only happen if the seas receded extremely (magically) rapidly. Did it happen that quickly? Does it even say how fast it happened? Can we tell just by going by the years in the editions? (the close of 4e vs the first stuff set in 5e).

I really do appreciate that they 'reset' the maps of the Heartlands for 5e, but by the same token, I'd like to take this opportunity to do something more interesting 'further afield'. I'm thinking about leaving most of that 'squiggly-ness' with the coast of Mulhorand - it looks pretty cool like that.

Warforged are from 'Returned Lantan', right?
I want something interesting for Sultim... Changelings? Shifters might work better with the lore, though (Lythari in the Taan & UE region). Still, shifters aren't right for a city environment. Hmmmm...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Aug 2017 03:06:58
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2017 :  04:33:05  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Okay, now that thats out of the way, honestly, I thought there'd be some responses in this thread, considering I made it because of the discussion going on here.


Oh, I was waiting for the 5e one to comment

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

How much should I 'repair'? For the Old Empires I was thinking 'about halfway' (but not precisely - some places will keep their entire 4e coast/layout, while others will be put-back mostly how they were, and the rest, something in the middle. I think that sounds about right, considering what we do know (which isn't a lot).


Yeah, I'm for this approach as well.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

If Ao (with Grumbar's help) put the physical mass of the earth back, did he put the terrain back precisely the way it was? Is the 'Maw' still there? What happened there is a bit different than what happened in the other locations...


That is an interesting question.

According to this topic, Grumbar actually didn't filled up all the Underschasm. Just almost all of it.

quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin

The Underchasm is filled with earth in the process. [...]
(*Note: The East Rift is probably not filled up, as the earth does not rise higher then Sadrak's Splinter, which lay on lower ground than the Rift before the Spellplague.)


So, I guess the land is not as it was before the Spellplague.

As for the Maw, I guess it depends if someone here wants it or not. It wasn't as big as the Underchasm, so, I can see Grumbar not having the necessity of filling it up.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And should I completely 'close' those as well? I kind of like the Landsmouth (but I'd make it MUCH smaller - narrower, at the very least). What about the Deep Maw (In Anauroch, next to the Fallen Lands)? Neither of those are on Mike Schley's 5e map, so should I just assume all that just up and disappeared?


I guess in canon they disappeared. So, if you want them to remain, go ahead.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Southern coast? Go halfway with that? 3/4 fixed? I kind of like Luiren with the islands, but I'd lose that big honkin' sea (The Dead Hin Sea - I created it, so I can loose it). I'm pretty sure I know how t go with most of that, but what about the Golden Waters? I always loved that region, and it got trashed. Even if it got fixed, the old settlements would have gotten ruined (I turned the area where the sea receded into a giant swamp - it makes up for the one we lost by Halruaa).


I'm ok with 3/4.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And how quickly did everything get 'repaired'? From what I understand, the Underchasm isn't finished being filled?


We now there was a one year "Great Rain" (yeah, a year-full deluge... yet, there were no casualties in canon).

Then, in TDYK, we learn that the transposing was nearly instantaneous.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Warforged are from 'Returned Lantan', right?.



I guess. They say in the SCAG that current lantanese technology seems "more advanced". That means that Aibeiran technology is pretty advanced (Erin even said that the healers of Tymanther are more proficient in healing without magic that the rest of healers in Faerûn).

Mmm... this gives me some ideas for Returned Halruaa...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2017 :  05:58:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TDYK?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2017 :  06:11:28  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Devil You Know. xDD Sorry, I tend to abbreviate everything since I wrote my compilation document about the Nentir Vale history.

Tho, I was wrong. The book were we saw the "change" is in Ashes of the Tyrant. And goes on like:

quote:


A storm is coming, Dumuzi thought. “The Blue Fire is coming.”

“That can’t happen!” one of the patriarchs shouted.

But the pressure in Dumuzi’s head became exultant and fearful all at once, as if now, finally, Dumuzi understood him. As if now, finally, the warning was clear: The world is about to end. Tymanther is in grave danger. He cannot let it happen again.

I have no children. He needed believers. He needed someone to anchor him to this world. You have to take the yoke, Dumuzi thought.

“Help us,” Dumuzi implored. “What one cannot do, many can manage. Be one of ours, please, one of our many.” He reached beyond himself, for the growing presence of the god.

And the god reached back as Abeir returned once more.

THE LAND REMEMBERS what the people forget: where the mountains were, where the shoreline lay, where the grasslands stretched flat and where caverns crawled beneath the surface. Where magic pulsed within it. It remembers what was, what is, what shall be again. When the planes unite, it knows what will come and what will go.

From the vantage of overgods, the planes kiss as they pass, but the land remembers this violence: earthquake, flood, unnatural fire. For the people, some will survive while some will take the brunt of Abeir’s return—it doesn’t matter to the land. It was, it is, it shall be.

But from the vantage of overgods, one thing is changed: an island in the storm, a city born of both worlds. The force of the planes passing through one another is enough to level it, the way it leveled the tower that once stood in its place. Magic, birthed by union and disunion, rolls toward the stone city like a tidal wave … only to break upon a wall of lightning that curves around the city like the wings of a mother vulture.



The Wall is Enlil's protective wall.

Notice, this is before he re-enters the Realms... it seems that beyond the spheres, the gods have their powers, even without followers.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2017 :  06:21:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Enlil is multispheric - the Pharonics are worshiped on many worlds.

Thanks for both the definition and the correction (and the information). Now I have a starting point.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Aug 2017 19:03:48
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2017 :  19:15:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have several ideas, now that I'm redrawing stuff, and one that came to me last night even had some lore attached:

"In the final years before the Conjuncture of Worlds, Kauth - acclaimed to be 'the greatest cartographer in Faerûn who ever lived - claimed to be having visions of people and places no-one had seen before. Of dramatic, landscape-changing events and arrivals that would alter the face of Toril forevermore. Most chalked it up to his age, and a lifetime of drawing 'fantastical places' he would never actually get to see. He began work on a new set of maps - odd, bizarre, twisted versions of our world. And although it was one of his most beautiful sets of work, it was neither the Toril we knew, nor did they even have internal consistency - features changed and twisted even within the same set. Rivers and realms would disappear or appear whole-cloth. Mountain ranges would change their orientation, and in one case, completely disappear. The townsfolk tried to take care of him the best they could, feeling he was becoming more and more 'addle-coved' with his advancing years.

In the end, he passed. It happened to be the morning of the day the Great Cerulean Wave washed across our world. In hindsight, looking back at those strange maps he drew in his final years, we can now see some of the features therein had become fact during the Wailing Years. Over the course of the next century, rivers changed course, and terrain features - and realms - came and went. And with each significant change, we could find some semblance of what happened on one of Kauth's maps. Even after the Great Rain, we are still seeing some features becoming reality, and the frightening part is, there are still many things we have not... yet. Who's to say if 'the Gods' are done with us; are done torturing the land? But Kauth will go down in the annals of history now as not only one of the greatest cartographers The Realms have ever seen, but also as a seer with an amazing gift. A gift to see the world that is, was, and will be."

--- Parrai Reese, Keeper of Maps at Candlekeep



And here is my idea - I am actually going to use a little bit of the 3e maps to do the 5e map. Before people start screaming and pulling their hair out - I am only going to do this where it doesn't really affect anything at all. ATM, I am just talking about Aglarond, which was MUCH better detailed in 3e. In fact, the whole of the Unapproachable East was (although I am yet-undecided how far I want to take this plan).

EDIT:
Okay, I just did yet-another layout of the Unapproachable East, and unlike my main (Continental) map where I 'backwards-engineered' 3e features into it, this time I pasted all the maps from the UE book directly in, and will follow them precisely. I did have to do some sleight rotations (I think Thesk caught the brunt of that), but otherwise I got them to fit fairly well.

The point of this exercise being: I am retroactively making the 3e maps in that book NOT canon to that era! Some 'foolish scribe' used some of Kauth's later, inaccurate maps to give to Elminster to pass on to Ed Greenwood, and no-one seemed to have caught the mistake... until now.

Why would I take such a bizarre approach? Because NOW that book - at least the maps in it (and the general information, like the history) can be used as a 5e sourcebook. Of course, Thay's a bit of problem, but the only folks really knowing whats going on in Thay are the folks who 'live' there... and they're not talking. Unless they do something completely unexpected - like give us an actual 5e Unapproachable East sourcebook - I think this might be the perfect approach to that area (and yeah, I know this is a thread about the Old Empires, but it all pertains to the changes to the terrain in 5e, and both regions are ones not yet covered by any maps).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2017 :  19:22:10  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We will see a book about Cormyr before they would make one about the Unapproachable East.

I guess that, now that you have the map, is time to see how we will advance the timeline of the area...well, the ones interested about it. Like sleyvas and aldrick.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2017 :  19:51:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup, and you can save whatever you want, anyway you want. It went to abeir, it didn't go to abeir but was somehow 'hidden', was turned into a ruin, even though an 'echo' of it went somewhere else (the shadowfell/RL is perfect for that), or even that 'people were simply mistaken' and it was fine. Hell, if things can get shifted to other worlds*, why couldn't some things have been shifted around more locally? We've already said that to account for some of the map-weirdness between editions, but what if some things somehow went even further? What if one settlement from the Old Empires went someplace right on Toril? Like Kara-Tur, Maztica, or Zakhara? What if, instead, a particular settlement 'came back', but the people there were different - changed by wherever they went (even if it was someplace else on Toril). It would be a great way to bring in anything you want, like a 'Cult of Kali' from Malatra. Or just have new settlements - the more the merrier. I can see a group of Kalashtar or Inspired from Sarlona (Eberron) being VERY confused. Or what if one FR settlement had gone to Dal Quor (a place in the Plane of dreams), and has now come back? New FR Kalashtar (or Inspired)?


*Just leave Sultim alone. I have plans for Sultim. For some reason that 'wayward' city always held a special place in my heart (A city - and MAJOR trade hub - that is technically part of Thay, and sits right beneath Thay's nose, is left completely alone by Thay... ignored, even. Granted 'semi-autonomous' status, even! Something VERY interesting is going on there, me thinks).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7063 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2017 :  22:13:48  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yup, and you can save whatever you want, anyway you want. It went to abeir, it didn't go to abeir but was somehow 'hidden', was turned into a ruin, even though an 'echo' of it went somewhere else (the shadowfell/RL is perfect for that), or even that 'people were simply mistaken' and it was fine. Hell, if things can get shifted to other worlds*, why couldn't some things have been shifted around more locally? We've already said that to account for some of the map-weirdness between editions, but what if some things somehow went even further? What if one settlement from the Old Empires went someplace right on Toril? Like Kara-Tur, Maztica, or Zakhara? What if, instead, a particular settlement 'came back', but the people there were different - changed by wherever they went (even if it was someplace else on Toril). It would be a great way to bring in anything you want, like a 'Cult of Kali' from Malatra. Or just have new settlements - the more the merrier. I can see a group of Kalashtar or Inspired from Sarlona (Eberron) being VERY confused. Or what if one FR settlement had gone to Dal Quor (a place in the Plane of dreams), and has now come back? New FR Kalashtar (or Inspired)?


*Just leave Sultim alone. I have plans for Sultim. For some reason that 'wayward' city always held a special place in my heart (A city - and MAJOR trade hub - that is technically part of Thay, and sits right beneath Thay's nose, is left completely alone by Thay... ignored, even. Granted 'semi-autonomous' status, even! Something VERY interesting is going on there, me thinks).



Technically Sultim is a part of Mulhorand. That being said, I don't have big plans for it.

Without doing some major responding to individual emails, I'll detail some of what I think. Some of this you already know as well.

I'm of the vote to bring back the area of the Underchasm and Great Rift pretty much the same, but with more cities, making the soil richer and basically adding to and changing to the culture of the area (but hopefully in a believable way). Basically, the Tharch of Peleveran, which I'm currently writing up, and I hope to make my first United Tharchs entry on the DMs Guild. Also, it will be less Savannah and more like Peleveran was, with a bit more tree-cloaked land and less dryness like the dragons left it.

That being said, I do want to make one kind of major change to the terrain.

As far as gods, I intend to mainly have a lot of nature / elemental deities OR deities of magic involved with the culture. This will include the Untheric goddess Ki, the barbarian god Khass (a rain god specific to the Shaar and mentioned in the 2e Complete Barbarian's handbook), Kiga the Predator (a female version of Malar favored by the Crintri refugees while they didn't have Loviatar). I also intend to have this Tharch having a focus on elementalism (meanwhile there will be another side which favors "trickery" and mental control, etc..). I intend to include small factions of refugees from High Imaskar and "renegade red wizards" from Halruaa (and by that, I mean Halruaan rebels) that fled Halruaa during the spellplague years to go to this new Tharch.

I also want to include a new "rift" or crevasse in the earth which goes from the great rift up to where Hardcastle is on the tip of the Chondalwood. I'm calling this Ki's Cleft. Here's my writeup so far

[b[ Ki's Cleft - [/b] It is said that Ki's avatar form appeared from the nearby forest of Chondalwood during the Sundering and that her presence sent great swells of green glowing energy throughout the Tharch. Still, even as she anchored the lands surrounding her, a cleft grew in the land beneath her two feet, until finally, her legs spread wide across across the great gash in the earth, she seemingly passed out and fell in and seemingly disappeared. Since then, it has become a common ritual for the people of this monastery and the cities of Hardcastle and Valastia to make a pilgrimage to the edge of “Ki's Cleft” to mate in the dirt if a pair of lovers seek to become pregnant. There are even many who have begun working the earthen walls on each side of Ki's Cleft to form another cliffside city similar to Peleveria, as well as small temples dedicted to not only Ki but also Grumbar and Istishia.

This cleft actually reaches all the way down to the Great Rift, where it has a small opening high up on the north wall of the Great Rift. This has created a beautiful waterfall in the side of the Great Rift that has allowed the dwarves of the Great Rift to proceed northward. The cleft has been found to be rich in both minerals and metals, and thus many dwarves have offered their services to the humans who wish to build cliffside settlements in return for the rights to any metals they find in addition to the fees they charge for the work.



As to what to do with the Maw of the Godswallower, I can't see leaving it as blank space, UNLESS you want to make it some kind of portal to the far realms or someplace else that is nasty that threatens the area. Personally, you've heard my idea of having a copy of a portion of Abeir coming over. I called it the "Red Mineral Forest of Shyr", and I was going to include that it held the Citadel of Burning Ice that belonged to Karshimis (but Karshimis didn't come over). In said citadel, after some discussion here, I decided to have Karshimis' dragon mount captured and his blood is "burning" the constantly growing ice. It is his blood and the resulting melting ice water which has turned the surrounding land red, and I was going to do something with the forest just making it alien. Ironically, I also extended this crystalline forest to butt up directly with the Maerchwood, which has become a totally petrified forest in Toril. Not sure how the dragon blood might affect it, but it could be a story. Anyway, I would fill the forest with SOMETHING not human (my latest thoughts are some weird stone giant race, but I'm not happy with that... but I kind of figured the Ash Giants to the south could maybe join in with them to make some kind of kingdom. The giants don't necessarily need to look like giant humans either).

That being said, I'd love to hear other ideas for what to do with the area. In 2e and 3e, said area pretty much was doing nothing, so it would hopefully be an improvement.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 18 Aug 2017 :  23:54:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure about putting the 'Red Forest' there. Don't get me wrong, i like it, but I think it should be something reflective of what happened there. I can put the 'Red Forest' somewhere else. I tried googling 'Red Giant', and aside from many pics of large red suns (Superman would have peed himself), the only humanoid thing I found was some pics of the Red Hulk... which lead me something called 'Salangor, the Red Giant', but I can't figure out where its from (other than Salingor being a town in Malayasia... Hey! maybe the people on that missing plane ended-up in the Realms!) Anyhow, from the couple of pics I could find of whatever that is, it looks sort of like a red stone giant.

A good piece of Abeir, for sure, and I can place it in that region (and want to), but probably no where the MotGS is/was. I was actually thinking something along Eberron's Mournland (so, like Wild magic regions on steroids).

"Ki's Cleft" - can we say some folks call it "Mielikki's Minge".
Funny thing is, I was thinking of putting a few crevasses here and there where the Underchasm was, so we were on the same page here.

I tried googling 'red monster', and got pics of Kane (WWF), Elmo, Monster energy drink, and This Guy. That dude can give you nightmares. You wanted something 'different', and that's pretty damn different.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Aug 2017 23:56:35
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2017 :  01:18:38  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

[b[ Ki's Cleft - [/b] It is said that Ki's avatar form appeared from the nearby forest of Chondalwood during the Sundering and that her presence sent great swells of green glowing energy throughout the Tharch. This cleft actually reaches all the way down to the Great Rift, where it has a small opening high up on the north wall of the Great Rift.


I can heat Grumbar saying "I didn't filled that **** Underscham" for you to come and create this shit!"

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Personally, you've heard my idea of having a copy of a portion of Abeir coming over. I called it the "Red Mineral Forest of Shyr", and I was going to include that it held the Citadel of Burning Ice that belonged to Karshimis (but Karshimis didn't come over).


The problem with this is that Ao wanted to restore both worlds, not just Toril. My point here is that he didn't repaired Toril at expense of Abeir. I'm pretty sure he repaired Abeir as well (because Mystra wants to protect Abeir as well in Ed's article about the Sundering*).

Another point is that we have to take into account is that he wanted to separate Abeir and Toril again (because status quo...**), so during the Second Sundering he didn't exchanged terrain unless it was absolutely necesary (like, there was something Torilian in that terrain during the "transposing"), and even so, when this happened the exchange was kept to the minimum (just land, not features). We also know that Ao didn't cared for individuals (because many people was just sent to Abeir or Toril during the SS indiscriminately, regardless of their original world), so he not transposed land just for bringing people back.

If there was no necessity for transposing, he just repaired (see, Grumbar filling up the Underchasm, or the Great Rain).

So, if you like to have this forest, you have to make it something that was transposed to Toril before the Second Sundering, and prepare a good reason for why it remained after it (like Enlil protecting Tymanther).

The issue here is that, there is no reason for a forest of Shyr to be there. Before the SS, there was a black hole there, not a forest. My suggestion is that you should move the forest from there. But I don't see a reason for Ao to have brought the whole Citadel of Karshimis to Toril. It will go against his whole "separation of worlds" philosophy. You need a really, really good explanation for this, beyond "is cool, we should use it".

For instance, I want to "bring back" Nentir Vale to the Realms (yeah, bringing back... it was supposed to be part of the Realms). But my idea is that the Nentir Vale was there (wherever this there will be... since there is a canon map that uses that spot , so perhaps we need a new one for the Ckanon) there since the Spellplague. So, I just need a reason to allow it to stay (and I'm going to plagiarize Erin's one... if a god with barely power can protect Tymanther, a full god with established religion in the Realms can protect Nentir Vale effortlessly)



*That, btw, I guess we should use for the Candlekanon. Is in Dragon 427, for those interested.

**This is why I see Laerakond lost in canon, and that is sad. Laerakond was way better than Mesoameri... I mean, Maztica.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 19 Aug 2017 01:51:05
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2017 :  03:49:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That makes sense. Although you're saying NO land was actually swapped back-N-forth between Toril and Abeir during the 2nd (3rd? 100th?) Sundering? He just replaced physical mass and that was it? Then why restore anything at all to its original world (like sending Tymanther back to Abeir)?

We can't just have 'cool new stuff'?

Also, are you saying Nentir Vale isn't going to work where we put it? Because putting it anywhere else would be counter-intuitive (since we know no-ones really going to play anywhere outside the Heartlands, and thats all been mapped for 5e). I plan to modify some of what Mike Schley did anyway (as i said, i am going to keep small parts of the two 4e 'canyons' that are absent from his maps. Personally, I think once stuff in the Nentir Vale conversion hits the DM's Guild, WotC will probably want to make it canon (since they're not planning to revisit Nerath, and it would be such a waste not to use that material).

In this particular case, I would think the CandleKanon can overwrite 'canon', because its not a lore-problem, and maps can just be inaccurate (or 'incomplete', if you prefer). The addition of NV doesn't disturb anything, really. I was going to blame it on the Greyhawk Wars, and just say the valley had begun being settled by (GH) refugees around 1370 DR or so (I had a precise date, based on the dates in GH). The REAL Kehlben Arunson IS in Greyhawk, after all (and is probably Mordenkainen), and it makes sense (to me) that the Circle of Eight would ask for help from Mystra's Chosen (Khelben would ask his uncle 'Khelben'). Thats how I was going to fix having core stuff in FR, rather than say the place 'teleported in', whole-cloth. However, now that i know Nerath is a real world that coexists with FR and others, that becomes a little harder. Originally it was just 4e's 'non-setting', with no solid canon of its own. I guess the novels screwed that up.


@Sleyvas -
As much as I hate Goliaths, how about a group of red-tinged ones (makes it easy form them to hide amongst the trees). They could be red & black mottled, instead of the usual B&W.

"The Goliaths of Abeir are somewhat different than those of Toril and beyond. They've always lived in hiding, fearing the dragons would take them for true giants and slaughter them on sight. This not only causes them to be reclusive, and isolationist, but it also leads them to find any means to keep themselves from being seen at all. Take for example the Goliaths of the Red Mineral Forest: they managed to find and extricate Cinnabryl from the mineral trees, and by ingesting it, they take on the color of the forest, and are able to blend-in quite well. Of course, the exotic substance causes other... effects. But one can't be too choosey when hiding from one's enemies."


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Aug 2017 06:22:31
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 19 Aug 2017 :  05:07:32  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

That makes sense. Although you're saying NO land was actually swapped back-N-forth between Toril and Abeir during the 2nd (3rd? 100th?) Sundering? He just replaced physical mass and that was it? Then why restore anything at all to its original world (like sending Tymanther back to Abeir)?

We can't just have 'cool new stuff'?


AFAIK, yes. He just relocated stuff to their proper worlds.

"Oh, there is Lantan here... was sent to Abeir during Cyric's folly... returned to Toril. Ohh... see that new cool and original continent on Toril, that is not a total, uninspired, stereotypical rip-off of an Earth culture? Returned to Abeir." And so forth.

Take notice, not all parts of Abeir were returned. A few ones remained in Toril (so we can imagine that parts of Toril also remained in Abeir), as per Chris Perkins and Matt Sernett in a Dragon Talk podcast. Tymanther is a canon example.

They left open which areas of Abeir remained on Toril, so DMs can choose their own Abeiran lands for their campaigns, but is canon that some Abeiran zones remained. Ao just isn't as all powerful as he wants us to believe he is.

That's why my solution to stuff like the Red Mineral Forest is that those places existed before the SS, and weren't returned by the event.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Also, are you saying Nentir Vale isn't going to work where we put it?


I like your solution to this.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The REAL Kehlben Arunson IS in Greyhawk, afterall (and is probably Mordenkainen), and it makes sense (to me) that the Circle of Eight would ask for help from Mystra's Chosen (Khelben would ask his uncle 'Khelben').


So, he went nuts and challenged Sthrad to be defeated, and now has returned back to Waterdeep after more than 100 years to be cared of by Old El? (yeah, this is canon)

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

However, now that i know Nerath is a real world that coexists with FR and others, that becomes a little harder. Originally it was just 4e's 'non-setting', with no solid canon of its own. I guess the novels screwed that up.


Yeah... even the guys at WotC didn't knew how NV world was evolving. We can use the Spellplague to fix this (we just have to say that NV was transposed from the world of Nerath, not from Abeir—the Spellplague was a multiversity catastrophe. Moreso, the way how the Abyssal Plague novels ended can be used for this, as well---). Your idea of the Greyhawk refugees can be used as such. They just survived the transposing of NV. Now there are Oerthians, Nerathans and potentially Abeirans living in that area... mmm, they can be the new generation of a new culture.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 19 Aug 2017 05:17:32
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Markustay
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Posted - 19 Aug 2017 :  06:57:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Except I wasn't planning on saying it 'came over whole-cloth', I had planned a 'it grew there in FR naturally, on its own' type f treatment. A century is a long time, and IIRC, I had the settling (from a massive, heavily guarded - on the GH side - portal) in that region sometime around 1370 or so (I just checked the dates with the Chronology of the Primes, and the GH Wars were from 1379-1381 DR... thats a bit of a SNAFU!)

Anyhow, real Khelben contacts the Khelben we know, and they form two 'Circles of Eight' (The CoE of GH, and six of the Seven Sisters + Elminster & Khelben on the FR side), and they open the huge Gate, allowing 'innocent victims of the war' to settle the valley. Despite their best efforts, some 'bad types' also manage to get through. A lot of land was cleared, and lakes previously hidden by deep forest revealed - the Nentir Vale (in FR) was born. Then the Spellplague hits and the Gate explodes, causing a massive rupture in the fabric of reality - parts of the Dragonborn & Tiefling Empires are shifted into the Vale (via the Shadowfell and Feywild). All that remains of the gate itself is vast hole - The Chaos Scar. Some say that it wasn't the Spellplague that disrupted the portal, but rather, something fell from the sky. Whatever it was, it left a mark.

And a hundred years later, we have a Nenter Vale that's eerily similar to the Nentir Vale in Nerath (I had planned to just ignore Nerath, but now I know we kind of can't). I suppose we could blame the duplication on some sort of 'magical chaos' residual effect (the Gate itself was blasted into dust, and spread all over the vale, which has caused the 'veil between the worlds' to be very thin in that region, and their is 'timeline leakage' occurring (which is what causes things like parallel/convergent evolution - its what the Mandela Effect supposedly works on). So even though the two Vales may have started out with VERY different beginnings, in the past hundred years the two histories have become extremely similar (Oh, and there was a short-lived 'Kingdom of Nerath' in that same area, about a thousand years ago - it was a Netherese survivor-state). Having the same name for a realm in more than one D&D world s nothing new (Blackmoor, Thar, etc). And it didn't appear on any maps until 5e because The Harpers and chosen worked very hard to keep the region semi-secret (people knew the region was being settled, but most folks wouldn't have known it was extra-planer; some of those refugees would have enemies chasing them even to other worlds... and some did). The story being spread is that folk of Nevrwinter (and Waterdeep) were being granted lands and settling in the nearby region of rolling hills called 'Neverwinter Vale, which was eventually shortend to just Nenter (Nentir) Vale.

At least, that was the way I was going to spin it until I decided to let you handle all the 'fluffy bits'. LOL
Something like that would work for the DM's Guild, but maybe not for the CandleKanon. Not sure.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Aug 2017 07:03:38
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 19 Aug 2017 :  08:26:29  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know... That's a really cool idea. The only problematic stuff are the draconian ruins (there are a lot of those in canon NV), but we can use Abeir as a solution (we know there are settled lands in the equivalent lands in Abeir, because of Conyberry). It's a good way to make our own version of NV.

The tiefling stuff is more tricky, but we can blame the Netherese.

The real headcracker will be the temple of Tharizdun.

I see this idea working better with the Ckanon than with Dms Guild (because copyright)

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 19 Aug 2017 08:29:50
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Markustay
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Posted - 19 Aug 2017 :  14:20:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I figured it was the easiest way to get 'Core pantheon worshipers' into the Realms, slightly in the past (although I hadn't yet realized when I thought that up that 'core' no longer means what it did in 3e, which was GH).

Also, there is the problem of the dead Khelben. LOL (I have to check-out your link above and see if I can figure-out a solution, other than, "Hey Elminster, you were my uncle's best friend, can you do me a huge, world-spanning favor?") On the other hand, Mystra and Wee Jas were 'bestest buds' back in the day (that's from On Hallowed Ground), and it could be she asked her for a favor, which would make sense for the whole of the Chosen to be involved (opening a large, semi-permanent, two-way Gate between worlds is always a risky endeavor, and I would imagine Gods should be involved). Since mortals were all that was involved, and not the actual 'swapping of lands', Ao would have been out-of-the-loop (they are not part of his concerns... as we saw when the Imaskari thought kidnapping whole cultures was okay... and built a 'Godwall').

Ya know, come to think of it, the Imaskari Godwall is the #1 reason I think that Ao was NOT the Overgod of Realms for most of its existence There were tons of times he really should have gotten involved, and didn't. Too bad 4e/5e lore had to screw-up and mention him in the past tense, otherwise it would be easy to say he didn't come around until after Mystryl's Fall (I suppose we could still say that, if we bend the canon just a bit and say he wasn't 'the Overpower of Realmspace' when he did that other stuff - he was just the guy in charge of keeping the primordials and Estelar from killing each other at that point in time).

Then, millennia later, when 'there was an opening' (Mystryl died), his past experience with Realmspace made him the likely candidate to step-in and take care of things.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Aug 2017 14:23:54
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Markustay
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Posted - 19 Aug 2017 :  17:59:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Stupid question (I'm working on something): What happened to the Imaskari?

I'm only asking because I just found an extremely powerful, very-much-alive and active (as of 3e) Imaskari Archmage (an NO, it isn't Halaster).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 19 Aug 2017 :  18:30:11  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is it the one whose master sent him away to safety at the last minute.

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Markustay
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Posted - 19 Aug 2017 :  20:13:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Are you talking about that guy who likes hanging around the Lake of Salt? Because MY GUY helped that dude take his first training wheels off his bike.
{I just made that up}

And yes, I just double-checked - his master did indeed 'send him off to safety', and he's been hanging around the Taan region ever since.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 19 Aug 2017 :  22:16:00  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The ones from High Imaskar? The survivors of the rebellion fled to the Desert of Purple Dust or to other planes, according to the SCAG. There is nothing more about them.

The ones from Deep Imaskar are sound and safe in the Underdark, saying to their High cousins "told ya".

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 19 Aug 2017 22:19:12
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 19 Aug 2017 :  22:27:37  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You weren't aware that Greyhawk wasn't the Core in 4e? That explains why you though GH Nerull was dead...

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ya know, come to think of it, the Imaskari Godwall is the #1 reason I think that Ao was NOT the Overgod of Realms for most of its existence There were tons of times he really should have gotten involved, and didn't. Too bad 4e/5e lore had to screw-up and mention him in the past tense,



The problem was 3.xe. Specifically, Faiths and Pantheons. The myth from where the 4e one evolved is in that book (yeah, I've been reading).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 19 Aug 2017 22:28:48
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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  05:19:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think it was that I was 'unaware'. I'm not sure how to put it - GH was always 'core'. then in 4e they started coming out with stuff for something called 'Netir Vale', which looked for all the world like a 'D&D hodgepodge' setting, and was even referred to by WotC designers (early-on) as a 'non-setting' (they were just going to toss-out chunks of lore all over the place, which may or may not apply to the same world).

The part that I seem to have 'missed' was that at some point during 4e's tenure (which I had stopped paying attention to), the non-setting became an actual, cohesive setting... with novels! I was even aware of the Abyssal Plague novels, but I didn't look into them when I saw they were cross-world (in other words, 'generic D&D').

I had just assumed that if I needed a world where a bunch of 'core pantheon' worshipers came from, that would have been GH (even though I KNEW their were differences, my assumption once again was that "Greyhawk got some new gods". At no point in time did I think anything from the core rulebooks didn't pertain to GH (because I am very old, and "thats the way its always been").

So I guess what I am trying to say is that it wasn't so much that "I missed it", but rather, more like I just wasn't even looking in the right direction to see it. I had blinders on when it came to 4e.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

The ones from High Imaskar? The survivors of the rebellion fled to the Desert of Purple Dust or to other planes, according to the SCAG. There is nothing more about them.

The ones from Deep Imaskar are sound and safe in the Underdark, saying to their High cousins "told ya".

No, this is someone different, before there even were 'Deep Imaskari'.

So lets see, we have Halaster, Nezram(?), Yaravindar Ipurnos, and Tan Chin, who are still 'alive & well' (well, Halaster is back, right? And Tan Chin may be a Lich, but he possesses living bodies, so that my loophole). Thats enough for an Imaskari bowling team! We'll call them the 'Imaskari immortals'.

We could put them up against the Nethere-Ease, an all-lich team consisting of Larloch, Aumvor, Iouluam, and Lady Saharal (okay, she's actually a ghost, but close enough).

Its gonna be a fun night at the trans-planer archmage bowling ally!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Aug 2017 05:21:05
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  06:35:38  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dunno if you know about the 4e preview books. In those books they share their development ideas and that stuff of "the making of 4e". I got them because most of the backstory of the races and places of Nerath is in those books.

In one of those books (the one about the world, IIRC) is revealed that they wanted to change the core world of D&D. They didn't want to use Greyhawk anymore, instead they wanted to use the Realms as the core world, and created the Nentir Vale as the starting place in the Realms for that purpose (well, this bit of info was revealed by Chris Perkins in Twitter). Then, they realized (with good reason) that using the Realms as the Core world will be problematic with the fans, but at that point had created the whole Nentir Vale and other stuffs, and said "this is too good to wasted it", so they re-purposed it into a new pseudo-setting, the Nentir Vale world (or just "the D&D world", as was called back in the day).

So, while most of the initial 4e core stuff seems "shoehorned" into the Realms (such as races or the cosmology), the truth is that it was first developed to be part of the Realms, and later re-purposed to become its own thing (and there is a Dragon article that specifically states that the World Axis cosmology was designed originally for the Realms, and later adapted into the Core world). This is also why most of the Nentir Vale stuff seems to be copy-pasted from the Realms. Nentir Vale was part of the Realms at first (heck, the World even has a "Weave" if we go by the novels).

With the gods was quite the reverse, though. They began creating their own gods, but later said "If we have a fey god, why don't use the old good Corellon instead?". So, they used most of the Greyhawk gods because players were most familiar with them (though they used Bahamut instead of Heirouneus because Bahamut is cool—they say that in the book, but I support their good tastes ), but a few of the new gods remained in the end (they favored the newly created Melora—somehow a fusion of Umberlee and Silvanus—over Obad-Hai, for instance).

Some gods used placeholder names. Such as Bane. The core god of war was more like Mars/Ares at the beginning, because without Heironeus, Hextor doesn't makes sense. But they used Bane as the placeholder name, and the name stuck... thus, Bane became a Core god.

BTW, Pelor's placeholder, at least initially, was Amaunator

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So lets see, we have Halaster, Nezram(?), Yaravindar Ipurnos, and Tan Chin, who are still 'alive & well' (well, Halaster is back, right? And Tan Chin may be a Lich, but he possesses living bodies, so that my loophole).


Nezram is Mulhorandi. And seeing his actions in recent years, the guy will kill you if he knows you said he was Imaskari,

Halaster... yeah, I guess he is fine. The guy has so many clones, that players can even chose a 4e theme (something like the 5e backgrounds) were their characters are Halaster's clones.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 20 Aug 2017 06:41:14
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sleyvas
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Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  14:31:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Not sure about putting the 'Red Forest' there. Don't get me wrong, i like it, but I think it should be something reflective of what happened there. I can put the 'Red Forest' somewhere else. I tried googling 'Red Giant', and aside from many pics of large red suns (Superman would have peed himself), the only humanoid thing I found was some pics of the Red Hulk... which lead me something called 'Salangor, the Red Giant', but I can't figure out where its from (other than Salingor being a town in Malayasia... Hey! maybe the people on that missing plane ended-up in the Realms!) Anyhow, from the couple of pics I could find of whatever that is, it looks sort of like a red stone giant.

A good piece of Abeir, for sure, and I can place it in that region (and want to), but probably no where the MotGS is/was. I was actually thinking something along Eberron's Mournland (so, like Wild magic regions on steroids).

"Ki's Cleft" - can we say some folks call it "Mielikki's Minge".
Funny thing is, I was thinking of putting a few crevasses here and there where the Underchasm was, so we were on the same page here.

I tried googling 'red monster', and got pics of Kane (WWF), Elmo, Monster energy drink, and This Guy. That dude can give you nightmares. You wanted something 'different', and that's pretty damn different.




You do have a good point there... and honestly, I have been struggling with the red forest once I started putting pen to paper. You know... maybe I should have that little thin section of Chondalwood that's at the top of the eastern Shaar leading into the landrise get transferred. I did want to have red wizard involvement with the red mineral forest.

Oooo, and yes I like the picture of that dude.... almost like somehow the centaurs of the Shaar that transferred over were transformed by the power of a primordial? Or this is a natural occurrence from years of eating the fruit of some "don't eat the fruit of that tree" tree. Red Skinned giants with a similar type of look would also be very good (but maybe with a ring of horns around their heads like Darth Maul).

Still liking the idea of having the Citadel of Burning ice also transfer and having the bound dragon of Karshimis in it and it being attached to the Mineral forest of Shyr.... heck... what if some followers of Tchazzar get some idea that they can perform a ritual and have Tchazzar reborn in this dragon? And maybe they are right.... and maybe the followers of Tiamat don't want that to happen.

But, then that idea brings us back to "what to do with the hole that is the Maw of the Godswallower?"

Oh, and Mielikki's Minge... glad you got the reference, and I can see some folk showing up to claim that it wasn't Ki it was Mielikki. I don't have a problem with these primal entities also having ties to sex and births, and given that it gives a "rebirth" to the world of sorts, I think its appropriate.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Aug 2017 14:35:05
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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  17:32:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the correction on Nezram - I wasn't sure, hence the '(?)' I had put there.

The Preview Books:
Yeah, I read those back when they first came out... within a few months, anyway - I was unwilling to PAY for something that amounted to a self-congratulatory giant advertisement for 4e, with lots of mutual backslapping going on (for destroying FR ). I felt like I was rolling around in someone else's narcissism. It was... unpleasant.

On the other hand, they actually had a bunch of very good ideas. Too bad they didn't use any of those. I loved the spin they put on undead (which matched my own thoughts of 'Body, Mind, & Soul' perfectly). I've already resolved the 'Core Bane' dilemma elsewhere (including the weirdness about who helped him achieve godhood). 'Core' Bane is the real Bane... OUR Bane, from FR. It was a 'cheap knock-off' that we've had for awhile (Xvim poising as daddy). NOW 'Core' Bane IS FR Bane... NO PROBLEM.

As for Melora - I hope they axed her. There was no point for her - she actually 'lessened' the setting (from the gods who's places she had taken). I felt like she was somebody's 'homebrew' that got forced into 4e (I am sure there were a couple of under-the-table deals being made - "You support me on this, and I'll support you on that".)

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

You do have a good point there... and honestly, I have been struggling with the red forest once I started putting pen to paper. You know... maybe I should have that little thin section of Chondalwood that's at the top of the eastern Shaar leading into the landrise get transferred. I did want to have red wizard involvement with the red mineral forest.
Suggestion: use the Maerchwood instead - we lost it for an entire edition (3e). Lets say it 'went to Abeir' during the ToT (and Brian James has said that some land-transfers DID occur during that period), and that's why it wasn't on the 3e maps. Now its 'come home'... CHANGED. This not only solves where to put it, but is resolves the 'where the heck did it go' from 3e, and also the lore-conundrum that Zeromaru has pointed out - unless gods were involved, everything was supposed to 'return home'. If it was originally from FR, then thats why its back... but weird. (Didn't like my Cinnabryl, angle, eh?)

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oooo, and yes I like the picture of that dude.... almost like somehow the centaurs of the Shaar that transferred over were transformed by the power of a primordial? Or this is a natural occurrence from years of eating the fruit of some "don't eat the fruit of that tree" tree. Red Skinned giants with a similar type of look would also be very good (but maybe with a ring of horns around their heads like Darth Maul).
Something Like THIS?

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Still liking the idea of having the Citadel of Burning ice also transfer and having the bound dragon of Karshimis in it and it being attached to the Mineral forest of Shyr.... heck... what if some followers of Tchazzar get some idea that they can perform a ritual and have Tchazzar reborn in this dragon? And maybe they are right.... and maybe the followers of Tiamat don't want that to happen.
I don't know what to do with this one. The simplest (lamest?) way to do this is use what I said above, and because the citadel was INSIDE the forest, Ao just overlooked it. Otherwise, you are going to need some God involved in keeping the citadel 'locked' to the forest, for whatever reason.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

But, then that idea brings us back to "what to do with the hole that is the Maw of the Godswallower?"
As I said above, I am thinking its more of a 'Mournland' kind of thing now. I like the idea that Ao isn't as 'all powerful' as we were lead to believe (he could get rid of the entropy-thing, but even he couldn't just *snap* his fingers and make the damage go away). It may have something to do with that 'far Realms' (Tharizdun) corruption - Powers from the normal universe are very limited in what they can do about stuff from that one (and yeah, I am picturing the MotGS being something akin to a black hole - stuff it was 'eating' was pouring out over there, so it was actually like a Gate). So now that the thing is gone, we are just left with a patch of 'no rules' universe there.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Oh, and Mielikki's Minge... glad you got the reference, and I can see some folk showing up to claim that it wasn't Ki it was Mielikki. I don't have a problem with these primal entities also having ties to sex and births, and given that it gives a "rebirth" to the world of sorts, I think its appropriate.
Yeah, I am pretty-sure Ki/Mielikki is an ANCIENT Goddess. Maybe not a primordial, but definitely one of the very first deities to arise. Even the elves worship an aspect of her - she's extremely 'primal' (so maybe one of those confusing 'Primal Powers' 4e created?)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Aug 2017 21:21:28
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