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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  08:48:22  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hopefully, someone can get me up-to-date on this stuff. My understanding is that after the Sundering Mulhorand and Unther came back from Abeir, and then for some strange reason the God-kings returned.

I am hoping there is some greater explanation for this and things do not look as odd as they do on paper. What I am trying to understand and figure out is how these places have changed over time, and the reason for the God-kings being there.

Prior to the Time of Troubles the Old Empires were in heavy decline. Many of the God-kings were dead, Unther was pretty bad off and was under the tyrannical rule of Gilgiem. Post-Time of Troubles the Untheric Pantheon had all been wiped out, Gilgiem was dead, and the only two survivors of that were Tiamat and Hoar (known as Assuran in the Old Empires). Both of these deities had basically already become part of the Faerunian Pantheon by that point anyway. The Untheric Empire basically collapsed with Gilgiem, and it was being picked apart by warring factions and being gobbled up by Mulhorand.

Mulhorand was also in a state of decline. However, it had more of a late Western Roman Empire feel to it. The glory days were in the past, but the state--in theory--was still in tact. That being said Faerunian cults were making their push into Mulhorand, and this was causing conflict between the established cults of that pantheon.

What changes to Mulhorandi and Untheric people and culture took place while they were on Abeir?

What happened to them while they were there and completely cut off from their deities?

How has this changed them?


As for the God-kings themselves... Just so everyone is on the same page: When the Imaskari stole the people who would become the Mulan from their homeworld (presumably Earth), they also erected a magical barrier--the Godswall--that prevented those deities from following their faithful back to Toril. The Mulan deities eventually found their way to Toril, but could not interact with the world in the same manner as the other deities. As a result, they created physical manifestations--basically super-charged avatars. Sometime after the Orc Gate Wars these manifestations decided to go into slumber. During their time they had mated with some of their faithful, who began to give birth to incarnations of that deity. The incarnations are somewhat similar to Chosen--in that they house a portion of the deities divine essence. However, they are still mortal, can be killed, and still apparently age and die as normal. However, these incarnations are worshiped as the physical manifestations were and are essentially living gods. After the Time of Troubles, Ao removed the Godswall, and as a result, the physical manifestations of the deities left the material plane to rejoin with their full essences within their divine domain. The incarnations were also significantly weakened as a result.

This brings us back to the post-Sundering Realms.

What are we dealing with here? Are we dealing with divine manifestations or incarnations?

If we are dealing with manifestations, how and why is this possible? Is the Godswall somehow back in place?

If we are dealing with incarnations, then where did they come from, who are they, and do they work like the incarnations pre or post Time of Troubles?


It feels like someone just pressed a reset button on the Old Empires, and reset them to their pre-Time of Troubles state as if nothing had happened. I am hoping there is a decent explanation for everything, or there is more depth that I am missing.

Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
785 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  12:11:28  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is somehow my field of expertise since I began to plan my first 5e FR campaign around Tymanther, and bought the Old Empires book to learn more about the region (personal note: do not buy 2e FR books. There is a hight risk that you may fall in love with them (?)), so here we go.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Hopefully, someone can get me up-to-date on this stuff. My understanding is that after the Sundering Mulhorand and Unther came back from Abeir, and then for some strange reason the God-kings returned.


Yes, they returned. Well, Unther at least, because Mulhorand never left. So, we need context here.

Mind, most of this info is revealed in Erin M. Evans excellent novels (the three last novels of her Brimstone Angels series). So, if you care about the novels and don't want to be spoiled... well, spoiler warning here.

Also, be warned: wall of text.

During the Spellplague, Tymanchebar, a dragonborn nation from Laerakond (the continent later known as Returned Abeir) was ripped out of from that continent when this was sent to Toril. Laerakond, unlike the rest of Abeiran lands that appeared on Toril after the Spellplague, wasn't "transposed". Laerakond was ripped off from Abeir when Mystra died, and was sent flying to Toril. Laerakond fell near or on top of Maztica (canon left that unanswered).

However, a chunk of Laerakond, were nearly all of the nation of Tymanchebar was located, was separated from the rest of Laerakond in the process, and fell on Faerūn, just on top of southern Unther and destroyed it. That was the original fate of Unther in the Spellplagued Realms: it was utterly destroyed. According to BRJ, the following catastrophe destroyed much of the lands of the Old Empires. There were a lot of powerful earthquakes, tsunamis, storms, etc. in the area.

The capital of Tymanchebar fell on top of Nanna-Sin's god tomb. Somehow, some dragonborn survived. The goddess Selūne aided one of those survivors, a female dragonborn named Kepeshkmolik Thymara, who was heavy with eggs, to reach where Nanna-Sin was buried, so she could have her children in safety. Then, Selūne gifted Nanna-Sin's axe to Thymara so she could defend herself in the new, spellplagued world. Thymara found other dragonborn survivors, including members of clan Shestandeliath, keepers of a powerful artifact named the Breath of Petron, capable of controlling elemental earth at will (using the artifact is letal for the user, thought).

Using the Breath of Petron, the dragonborn fused the remains of the former capital of Tymanchebar with Nanna-Sin's tomb, creating current Djerad Thymar. Then, they adopted Nanni-Sin as "clan-kin" (even dead, he was literally their savior), buried him in their most sacred mausoleum in Djerad Thymar and went to create their new nation, Tymanther, in the former Untheran lands, named in honor of both, their former nation of Tymanchebar, and the nation they destroyed, Unther.

Mulhorand suffered as well as Unther, and while it survived, most of her cities were swallowed by the Alamber Sea or destroyed in the earthquakes. The mulan then, were left mostly homeless and weakened, and then were conquered by the Imaskari wizard Ususi and her Deep Imaskari followers. There is a novel about this, but I haven't read it yet.

Ususi and her followers founded High Imaskar in former Mulhorand, with a minority of Imaskari population and the rest were mulan survivors. The Imaskari saved the mulan civilization from death in the Wailing Years, as Empress Ususi was a good, kind ruler who abolished slavery and improved the way of life of the mulan. But not all of them saw this a positive thing.

So, when Nezram returned to the Realms after one of his usual holidays in Planescape, he saw Imaskari people "dominating" the the mulan and believing the Spellplague was a Imaskari plot to dominate Mulhorand, fomented rebellion. He even convinced some Imaskari (including a high ranking one, High Planner Yannay) to join him during the Mulhorandi rebellion.

Retcon time:
In the Sundering we discover that not all of Unther was destroyed. The Spellplague exchanged most of northern Unther with its equivalent lands in Shyr (Faerūn's equivalent in Abeir), and Tymanchebar just destroyed southern Unther and those Shyran lands.

Now, when Unther returned, not all the northern Untheran lands returned, because Enlil (now the protector of the dragonborn race) stopped that process when Ao tried to return Tymanther to Abeir. While most of northern Tymanther was sent back to Shyr, and those Untheran/Shyran lands took its place on Toril, all of southern Tymanther (all south of the River Alamber and Djerad Thymar) remained on Toril. Seeing the SCAG, the geography of post-Sundering 2.0 Tymanther may have remained as it was in 4e, as the SCAG mentions Ash Lake.

The second time Ao tried to return Tymanther to Abeir, Enlin, and potentially Asmodeus, Azuth and potentially even Bahamut (who we know, thanks to Dragons of Faerūn, that was "Marduk" in the Untheric Pantheon), again stopped the process. So, Tymanther know coexist with Unther and Mulhorand. I have made a map of the current (1491) Old Empires for my future campaign, very faithful to canon (I even pestered Markustay for help). If you like, you can look at it for reference.

With that context in mind:

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

What changes to Mulhorandi and Untheric people and culture took place while they were on Abeir?


The only Mulhorandi that were sent to Abeir were those who were part of the military occupation forces in northern Unther (during 3e). We now that, when they encountered the genasi of Shyr (also, the name of the kingdom of a powerful primordial named Karshimis, located on the Shyran continent), the mulhorandi offered themselves as slaves of the genasi, and then sold the the Untherites as lesser slaves. But that is all of what we know of the Abeiran lands in the last years of the 1300s.

In Erin's novels is revealed that, a few years before 1486, the descendants of the Untherites were a totally oppressed under class of slaves, while the the descendants of the Mulhorandi were the favored servant class of the Shyran genasi tyrants. So fed up were the Untherite that their faith and desperation somehow restored Gilgeam to life (a true miracle in Abeir, that was the "no-gods" world created by Ao).

So, to answer your question:
Abeiran Mulhorandi: masochistic people who sold themselves as serfs to the Shyran genasi.
Abeiran Untherites: oppressed slaves.

The ancestors of the genasi from Akanūl (the genasi kingdom from Abeir that was transposed to Airspur, in Chessenta—and that it still remained on Toril after the Sundering 2.0) were also from Shyr, so you can look out for info about Akanūl (wiki link) to see how it is the Shyran culture and what kind of impact it has in the Mulhorandi and Untherite from Abeir.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

What happened to them while they were there and completely cut off from their deities?

How has this changed them?



As I said, the Mulhorandi who went to Abeir (the ones of the military occupation forces and their descendants), willingly became servants of the genasi tyrants. The untherite were able to revive Gilgeam. They may have changed due to the Shyran culture.

The Mulhorandi who remained in Toril, joined Nezram in his rebellion against High Imaskar. Their culture may not have changed, or changed very little due to the Imaskari culture.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

As for the God-kings themselves...

What are we dealing with here? Are we dealing with divine manifestations or incarnations?

If we are dealing with manifestations, how and why is this possible? Is the Godswall somehow back in place?

If we are dealing with incarnations, then where did they come from, who are they, and do they work like the incarnations pre or post Time of Troubles?



The SCAG don't mention the Godwall. And many gods returned. In fact, in yesterday's AMA with Ed, he said "all gods returned". So, I guess the Godwall never returned.

As for the God-Kings, the SCAG says that they are Chosen of the returned Mulhorandi gods. Those gods returned during the Sundering 2.0, and send their Chosen to strengthen their positions and portfolios while Ao was recreating the Tablets of Fate and restoring order in the worlds of Abeir and Toril (1482-1487).

However, the mulhorandi believe (and that is the exact word in the SCAG) those Chosen are their God-Kings of old. The Chosen/God-Kings have different personalities, however. They do not fight among themselves, and are focused in the restoration of Mulhorand as it was in the past. They also abolished slavery (for the second time, as Ususi already did it during her rule...). And, while the rest of Chosen of other gods lost their powers after 1487, the Chosen/God-Kings retained those powers.

Gilgeam is another beast altogether. In Erin's novels, the new Gilgeam is more aggressive, more ambitious, and even smarter than the last one. He calls himself the "Son of Victory" instead of the "Father of Victory". Even Enlil said that this Gilgeam doesn't feel like his son. So, maybe is a new version of Gilgeam.

Nanna-Sin was revived as well. However, Asmodeus took his divine spark to become an independent deity from Azuth, so Nanni-Sin isn't a god anymore (and his axe is now the treasure artifact of the Kepeshkmolik dragonborn clan). Enlil allowed this in exchange that Asmodeus resurrected Nanna-Sin as an immortal being. He is the dragon turtle protecting Djerad Kethendi (another dragonborn city) from the Untherite armies in 1489. Nanna-Sin does this out of gratitude to the dragonborn, who protected his body during and after the Wailing Years.

Hope this help you, and sorry for the wall of text.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Jul 2017 12:20:57
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  16:19:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
very good summarization, but there's some things in there that are assumptions, and some things that are left unclear. So, just to try and provide some alternate views, I'm going to list some of the things I've noted.

For instance, the whole northerneastern part of Unther/Threskel (including the ship of the gods... which yes did have volcanic activity sometime in the 20 years leading to the spellplague), we're led to believe fell beneath the alamber sea. We don't know is this has rerisen or not, but we've heard rumors that older maps will be more relevant than 4e ones. This kind of implies that Messemprar and Mourktar will be returned (with Messemprar being the last place where Unther held before falling to Mulhorand, and Mourktar being a stronghold for the Tyrant Bane that many Untherites may have fled to). HOMEBREW: This leaves me wondering whether Messemprar and Mourktar and the ship of the gods aren't returned and inhabited by Untherites who took to worshipping "Gilgeam" but the prayers were being answered by Bane, and its Bane that has returned as the "Son of Victory"... or even some kind of Bane/Gilgeam merger similar to the Asmodeus/Azuth thing. Meanwhile, "Gilgeam" is trying to restore Unthalass as its former capital. These areas would also possibly have inhabitants of Shyr or possibly Mulhorandi that subjugated them... or they may not and this area was "cleansed" by Gilgeam and his followers. It should also be noted that this area while in Abeir essentially involved three distinct major "tyrants"... Bane, Gilgeam, and Karshimis the Primordial.... and perhaps that as well can be spun into something. In fact, it may very well be that the Gilgeam we see and hear of is in fact Karshimis forming a manifestation so that he can attempt to invade Toril. SIDENOTE: If that were in fact the case, then theoretically "Enlil" might be a primordial of lightning.

On the Incarnations idea, I personally like the idea that those "chosen" are in fact incarnations that started showing the effects of being incarnations while in Abeir, and that perhaps there were two different groupings of Mulhorandi. For instance, I see the ones in Threskel/Unther that were servants of the Shyran and who maybe saw the Primordial Karshimis as the equivalent of the manifestations that they worshipped just 27 years prior to the spellplague. In fact, some may have thought him to be an incarnation of Geb or the "Raumathari" entity Kossuth... or they may have simply seen him as a new tyrant and the Untheric people immediately subjugated themselves and their Mulhorandi masters had to acquiesce to survive. We know very little about Karshimis' actual elemental "makeup", though we know he had a Citadel of Burning Ice... that may mean he has power over fire or ice or both, or it may have no meaning, so we don't know what he appeared like to the transferred people of northern Unther. Meanwhile, in Mulhorand itself, the Shyran's maybe try to oppress them and the "god-kings" come back into play as incarnations.


Enlil is returned to Toril as a deity, but he is returned to both Untherites and dragonborn. He is represented as "breath" and "lightning", so mainly as a protective storm god. HOMEBREW: This would conflict with the idea of Ramman returning, and so I'd recommend sticking with Anhur as the deity of war. I'd say similar with Ishtar and stick with the use of Isis. In fact, I'd stick with just Enlil, Gilgeam, and Assuran as being the remaining gods of Unther..... and I'd even include a heresy being spread by some that Assuran of the Three Thunders is really using Enlil's name and what's happening is that neither Gilgeam or Enlil have truly returned, and its simply Bane posing as Gilgeam and Assuran posing as Enlil

By the way, I'm not sure if anything was ever done with this from the 4e FRCG
The Gates of Burning Mountain: One of the Smoking Mountains periodically erupts, raining down hot ash for miles in every direction. Stories have it that a mad, entombed primordial transposed from Abeir is responsible for the eruptions, though no one knows for sure. A number of eyewitness accounts describe one new and surprising discovery uncovered by a recent eruption: sealed adamantine gates a hundred feet high in the mountain’s side.
HOMEBREW: This primordial may in fact be one of several "manifestations" of Talos and his godly aspect was in fact the culmination of the combining of the powers of several primordial-like entities... possibly this one, Bhaelros, Kozah, etc... Or it could have been a primordial which Karshimis entombed that transferred from Abeir... or it could even be a "copy" of Karshimis that was created during the spellplague when all the land was copying

In the area of western Threskel, there was a dracolich who I believe was at least temporarily destroyed and a vampiric green dragon who I'm unsure of his fate. There was also a group of the Cult of the Dragon and a Thayan embassy with ties to Szass Tam and his necromancers.
HOMEBREW: I have stated several times that I want to have a portion of the Shaar returned with a new red wizard Tharch there which is against Thayan influence, which I'm calling the Tharch of Pelevar. I also want Cimbar and Soorenar returned as a remote portion of this Tharch, and these two cities to have a strong Velsharoon and "living" undead presence. That makes this necromantic place of Western Threskel as a perfect place for a conflict with the new red wizard tharchs and the existing Thayans serving Tam.

In Chessenta, we also have the literally destroyed area created by the Maw of the Godswallower.
HOMEBREW: I've discussed the idea of having a portion of Abeir transferring over. I've discussed having this called "the Red Mineral Forest of Shyr" in this candlekeep forum thread. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21647
It could also be interesting maybe if during the Sundering 2.0 that whatever was in the gates of the burning mountains is released and maybe takes control of this area and the ash giants .... and maybe some fire giants who are more elemental in nature. Maybe some "stone giants" like are presented in Erins novels as well that may tend the red mineral forest of shyr.... I need to ponder this idea of a giant kingdom here with a primordial ruler, but it could prove interesting.


I'm going to stop here, because I need to go do something, but let's continue this thread for ideas.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1177 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  16:23:48  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Mulhorand suffered as well as Unther, and while it survived, most of her cities were swallowed by the Alamber Sea or destroyed in the earthquakes. The mulan then, were left mostly homeless and weakened, and then were conquered by the Imaskari wizard Ususi and her Deep Imaskari followers. There is a novel about this, but I haven't read it yet."

Which novel covered that?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14387 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  16:53:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Although I am more inclined to provide continuity 'fixes' for 5e lore than I was for 4e lore, I am not a big fan of the "its all just like it used to be" approach in 5e. It actually reminds me of one of the worst things about 3e - no matter how big the event (RSE), everything went 'back to normal' the very next day. I mean, we had a Spellplague and a 2nd Sundering... you'd think there'd be evidence of some of that still (aside from a couple of designer-favorite pieces of Abeir still attached).

Be that as it may, even if the Old Empires IS 'just the way they used to be', there is actually a (D&D) precedent for that - the way the Domains of Dread behave. No-one knows for sure if the people and places in Ravenloft are the 'genuine article', or just copies of those things - there is evidence that both are true. When a place becomes part of RL, there are still ruins (usually) left behind on the world that place was from. And in at least one case, when the 'Dark lord' returned to his world, the ruins were replaced with the original version of his lands (Lord Soth of Krynn/DL). In fact, according to the writers of that setting, no time had actually passed (which is why there is conjecture as to whether those folks in RL are just copies). Heck, the Domains of Dread may even be some sort of 'afterlife', and on very rare occasions, the people are restored back to their former lives (maybe is a form of purgatory?)

And the best part is, none of these people ever remember a thing about the changes. There is even at least three precedents for that in FR, that I can think of right off the top of my head - what Ao did to EVERYONE after the ToT, Finder Wyvernspur, and what happened to Kiaransalee. Thus, entire cities - including the people - CAN simply 'be there again' in 5e, even if they were destroyed. Apparently, the universe has 'restore points' where it backs up all of its info, and Overgods (and certain epic magics) have access to that. Its probably temporal in nature, and probably requires permissions by someone 'on high' when Overpowers do it ("I got the orders down from corporate..."). When lesser beings manage to pull these things off (changing the past, or simply ignoring it), its basically just 'hacking the system'. Folks who do that should expect a visit from a Quarut (inevitable of Time).

I think Elves get a 'pass' on all that because of their Fey heritage... but that just relates to my homebrew musings about their High Magic.

EDIT:
And I forgot to make my main point: If Abeir is similar in nature to RL - and there is no reason why it shouldn't be - then perhaps some of the destroyed regions were shifted into Abeir, and they would STILL leave behind wreckage and ruins, in the same way RL does. Now, you can postulate whether the ruins are real, and the settlements in Abeir are the fakes, or the other way around... but does it really matter? In fact, if I am right about how the universe works (like a computer), then those are simply copied files. One world gets a pristine copy, and the other gets a corrupted version (or like how it works in some MMO's - a region 'changes' for some people, after a major, in-game event, and yet other players still see it the way it was originally if they have not triggered said event - each player is still looking at his own copy of the game running locally on his machine, which represents the different worlds in D&D). Thus, the whole question of which is 'the real one' is moot.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jul 2017 17:04:16
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1177 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  17:00:30  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Retcon time:
In the Sundering we discover that not all of "Unther was destroyed. The Spellplague exchanged most of northern Unther with its equivalent lands in Shyr (Faerūn's equivalent in Abeir), and Tymanchebar just destroyed southern Unther and those Shyran lands."

Where did it say this part?
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1177 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  17:34:48  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

very good summarization, but there's some things in there that are assumptions, and some things that are left unclear. So, just to try and provide some alternate views, I'm going to list some of the things I've noted.

For instance, the whole northerneastern part of Unther/Threskel (including the ship of the gods... which yes did have volcanic activity sometime in the 20 years leading to the spellplague), we're led to believe fell beneath the alamber sea. We don't know is this has rerisen or not, but we've heard rumors that older maps will be more relevant than 4e ones. This kind of implies that Messemprar and Mourktar will be returned (with Messemprar being the last place where Unther held before falling to Mulhorand, and Mourktar being a stronghold for the Tyrant Bane that many Untherites may have fled to). HOMEBREW: This leaves me wondering whether Messemprar and Mourktar and the ship of the gods aren't returned and inhabited by Untherites who took to worshipping "Gilgeam" but the prayers were being answered by Bane, and its Bane that has returned as the "Son of Victory"... or even some kind of Bane/Gilgeam merger similar to the Asmodeus/Azuth thing. Meanwhile, "Gilgeam" is trying to restore Unthalass as its former capital. These areas would also possibly have inhabitants of Shyr or possibly Mulhorandi that subjugated them... or they may not and this area was "cleansed" by Gilgeam and his followers. It should also be noted that this area while in Abeir essentially involved three distinct major "tyrants"... Bane, Gilgeam, and Karshimis the Primordial.... and perhaps that as well can be spun into something. In fact, it may very well be that the Gilgeam we see and hear of is in fact Karshimis forming a manifestation so that he can attempt to invade Toril. SIDENOTE: If that were in fact the case, then theoretically "Enlil" might be a primordial of lightning.

On the Incarnations idea, I personally like the idea that those "chosen" are in fact incarnations that started showing the effects of being incarnations while in Abeir, and that perhaps there were two different groupings of Mulhorandi. For instance, I see the ones in Threskel/Unther that were servants of the Shyran and who maybe saw the Primordial Karshimis as the equivalent of the manifestations that they worshipped just 27 years prior to the spellplague. In fact, some may have thought him to be an incarnation of Geb or the "Raumathari" entity Kossuth... or they may have simply seen him as a new tyrant and the Untheric people immediately subjugated themselves and their Mulhorandi masters had to acquiesce to survive. We know very little about Karshimis' actual elemental "makeup", though we know he had a Citadel of Burning Ice... that may mean he has power over fire or ice or both, or it may have no meaning, so we don't know what he appeared like to the transferred people of northern Unther. Meanwhile, in Mulhorand itself, the Shyran's maybe try to oppress them and the "god-kings" come back into play as incarnations.


Enlil is returned to Toril as a deity, but he is returned to both Untherites and dragonborn. He is represented as "breath" and "lightning", so mainly as a protective storm god. HOMEBREW: This would conflict with the idea of Ramman returning, and so I'd recommend sticking with Anhur as the deity of war. I'd say similar with Ishtar and stick with the use of Isis. In fact, I'd stick with just Enlil, Gilgeam, and Assuran as being the remaining gods of Unther..... and I'd even include a heresy being spread by some that Assuran of the Three Thunders is really using Enlil's name and what's happening is that neither Gilgeam or Enlil have truly returned, and its simply Bane posing as Gilgeam and Assuran posing as Enlil

By the way, I'm not sure if anything was ever done with this from the 4e FRCG
The Gates of Burning Mountain: One of the Smoking Mountains periodically erupts, raining down hot ash for miles in every direction. Stories have it that a mad, entombed primordial transposed from Abeir is responsible for the eruptions, though no one knows for sure. A number of eyewitness accounts describe one new and surprising discovery uncovered by a recent eruption: sealed adamantine gates a hundred feet high in the mountain’s side.
HOMEBREW: This primordial may in fact be one of several "manifestations" of Talos and his godly aspect was in fact the culmination of the combining of the powers of several primordial-like entities... possibly this one, Bhaelros, Kozah, etc... Or it could have been a primordial which Karshimis entombed that transferred from Abeir... or it could even be a "copy" of Karshimis that was created during the spellplague when all the land was copying

In the area of western Threskel, there was a dracolich who I believe was at least temporarily destroyed and a vampiric green dragon who I'm unsure of his fate. There was also a group of the Cult of the Dragon and a Thayan embassy with ties to Szass Tam and his necromancers.
HOMEBREW: I have stated several times that I want to have a portion of the Shaar returned with a new red wizard Tharch there which is against Thayan influence, which I'm calling the Tharch of Pelevar. I also want Cimbar and Soorenar returned as a remote portion of this Tharch, and these two cities to have a strong Velsharoon and "living" undead presence. That makes this necromantic place of Western Threskel as a perfect place for a conflict with the new red wizard tharchs and the existing Thayans serving Tam.

In Chessenta, we also have the literally destroyed area created by the Maw of the Godswallower.
HOMEBREW: I've discussed the idea of having a portion of Abeir transferring over. I've discussed having this called "the Red Mineral Forest of Shyr" in this candlekeep forum thread. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21647
It could also be interesting maybe if during the Sundering 2.0 that whatever was in the gates of the burning mountains is released and maybe takes control of this area and the ash giants .... and maybe some fire giants who are more elemental in nature. Maybe some "stone giants" like are presented in Erins novels as well that may tend the red mineral forest of shyr.... I need to ponder this idea of a giant kingdom here with a primordial ruler, but it could prove interesting.


I'm going to stop here, because I need to go do something, but let's continue this thread for ideas.




The Bane Gilgeam connection can't work because the new Gilgeam emerged in Abeir where Bane can't reach (Gilgeam could because he corspe would have been transported to Abeir).

If Ramman returns it's likely as a an adopted Mulhorand deity because he gave his power, I guess including that of his incarnation, to Anhur, just as Ishtar gave her incarnation to Isis when she left Toril, so both would manifest perhaps separate, Incarnations for Ramman and Ishtar when they returned with the rest of the Pantheon.

Also Mask was said to be a member of the Mulhorandi Pantheon, is he required to send an incarnation to Mulhorand?
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Aldrick
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Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  21:18:16  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks to everyone who responded so far. This is a lot to wrap my head around, especially since there is lots of talk of Akanūl and Tymanther. I know very little about these regions since I did not keep up with the 4th edition lore. So, there are lots of words being thrown around that have little meaning to me. I am going to have to go read up.

So, anyway... let me see if I understand some of the basics.

- The nation of Mulhorand did not go to Abeir. It was just largely destroyed during the events of the Spellplague, and then conquered by the Imaskari from Deep Imaskar.

- Some of the conquered lands of Unther WERE transported to Abeir. Once there the Mulan peoples became slaves. The Mulhorandi, who had conquered Unther, became high ranking slaves and the oppressed Untheric people became lower ranking slaves. They were all slaves to genasi tyrants who ruled the nation of Shyr on Abeir. (Is there any more information on how this went down, or is it open for speculation?)

- Tymanchebar was a nation of Dragonborn on Abeir who rebelled against the Dragons there who had enslaved them. It was a free nation of Dragonborn. A portion of Tymanchebar was transported to Toril during the Spellplague, and it literally fell upon the lands of Unther, essentially killing everyone there--including many Dragonborn. Tymanchebar in Abeir likely fell to the dragons of that world, and this transported land renamed itself Tymanther in honor of its former nation.

- Tymanther's capital city is named Djerad Thymar. It is located roughly southeast of where Unthalass was once located. It is a massive large ziggurat-like city, divided up into roughly four districts. Tymanther's government can best be described as a stratocracy, where the military and the government are one and the same, and the head of the nation is known as the Vanquisher.

- Tymanther is further sub-divided by various clans that trace ancestral lineage. There are at least two known Clans of Dragonborn, Kepeshkmolik and Shestandeliath. Clan Kepeshkmolik has associations with the former Untheric God-king Nanna-Sin. Clan Shestandeliath has a powerful artifact known as the Breath of Petron.

- Unthalass and Messemprar remained in the Realms but are in ruins.

- A powerful Mulhorandi Wizard known as Nezram--who is a planeswalker--is somehow responsible for overthrowing Returned Imaskar. This somehow also led to a return of the Mulhorandi God-kings.

- We have, as confirmed in the lore, the following God-kings returned: Gilgeam, Enlil, Nanna-Sin, and...?

- Asmodeus is somehow involved in what is going down in this region, apparently cutting a deal with Enlil, and in exchange transported the immortal essence of Nanna-Sin into the body of a dragon turtle.

=================

Okay, this is what I seemed to understand. Did I misunderstand anything?

So, some additional questions: When the Untheric people returned from Abeir, how long had Gilgiem been around? Did their "land" swap places on Toril again, or were the people just transported? How did the Mulhorandi and Genasi conflict with the Utheric people get solved? Was that solved before or after their return from Abeir?

What is the state of Tymanther now that the God-kings are back? It seems that some of the God-kings are supporting Tymanther... why would they do this against their own people?
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Markustay
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Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  21:27:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, we've had multiple incarnations of Gilgeam, and we've definitely got more than one Bane.

I'd love to see the Old Empires get a conjoined pantheon, made up of various Pharonic/Babylonian/Sumerian and even a few Faerūnian deities, but give at least some of them new/different names (even one or two of the FR ones). For example, call Mask 'Lord Sheut'.

And call Ra/Re 'Auman-Ra', which I know is derivative, but it gives us a nice connection to Aumanator (so maybe when Amaun lost power to lathander in the north, he retreated to his southern aspect).

I'm thinking:

Auman-Ra - Sun God - really Aumanator (or rather, Aumanator was really masquerading as Ra since the Orcgate Wars)
Myshtar - Goddess of magic - really Mystra
Anhur - God of war/fury - really just Talos
Gilgeam - God of sovereignty, strength, and tyranny (this could possibly be Iyatchu-Xvim) God of "Divine Right"
Hoarash (Hoar/Horus) - God of vengeance
Tishiat - Goddess of water (Istishia)
Gebarr - God of the earth - really Grumbar as Geb
Astardi (Astarte?) - Goddess of the Air - really Akadi (she appears to have a bit of a 'warrior aspect' in the east)
Gorruth (Girru) - God of Fire, really an aspect of Kossuth
Maahes - Mulan aspect of Nobanion
Na-Thyphsalees (Nephthys) - a recent addition and aspect of The Raven Queen
Maatyr - a Mulan aspect of Tyr
Bastess - Goddess of sexuality and cats - Baast/Sharess
Sheut ('Lord Shadow') - god of shadows and thieves, really just Mask
Kekarr - God of primordial darkness - aspect of Erebus
Ur-Hathor* ('Earthmother') - Goddess of childbirth, the hearth, and the Moon (a possible bipartite aspect of Chauntea/Selūne)
Khalashaar - 'lady of forests and fields' - really Ki/Mielikki (name slightly changed from her elven aspect)
Nepthean - Goddess of wealth, patron of children - really a Mulan aspect of Waukeen (or, perhaps the other way around?)
Osirion - God of the dead - a Mulan aspect of Kelemvor, with a wolf's head (appropriate, eh?)
Thoth-Zionel - tripartite deity of knowledge (Oghma), Invention (Gond), and neutral magics (Azuth)
Maharduk (Marduk) - just a human aspect of Bahamut
Tiamat - Draconic goddess of evil (I am picturing a heresy wherein human worshipers think Tiamat is the same being as Shar)
Ragarra** - goddess of crocodiles, wilderlands (jungles, wetlands, etc) - a more feral, female aspect of Sebek, originally from the Fallen Empires of Zakhara (as Raggara)
Konsūl (Konsu/Konshu) - a demigod of 'night hunting', supposed child of Selūne
Apep-tar ('The Night Serpent') - snake god of poisons and subterfuge, another recent edition (really Zehir)
Sset - Sset is set, what more can I say? He's a douche.

There could be others - minor demipowers, and even 'beast cults', or cults to Archfiends.


* I am picturing her having a secret, 'underground following' of purely women, who practice 'forbidden magics' in secret, like druidesses

** She'd have the crocodile head, just as she does in Zakhara, but she'd be just a little less 'bestial'. Her and Baast would have an on-going feud. She'd also be an ally/subordinate to Set (although she would NEVER consider herself a subordinate... HE would). Neither of them like the new-comer, Zehir, who's really just an aspect of Dendar/Eshadow.





"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jul 2017 21:33:03
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Aldrick
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Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  21:52:03  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am posting this here because this is important. I went searching for some information on Dragonborn, and came across two lengthy posts by Erin M. Evans. She has obviously spent more time thinking about the issue than many others, so she is probably the most knowledgeable about the issue.

Erin M. Evans, On Playing a Dragonborn in the Forgotten Realms
Post One:
http://slushlush.com/2015/05/on-playing-a-dragonborn-in-the-forgotten-realms-part-1/
Post Two: http://slushlush.com/2015/05/on-playing-a-dragonborn-in-forgotten-realms-part-2/

There is a great deal of important Forgotten Realms specific lore. This seems to include a list of all known Dragonborn Clans: Verthisathurgiesh, Kepeshkmolik, Daardendrien, Ophinshtalajiir, Shestendeliath, Fenkenkabradon, Kanjentelllequor, Yrjixtilex, Prexijandilin, Linxakasendalor and Clethtinthtiallor.
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Gyor
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Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  21:52:42  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The connection between Ishtar and Isis as well as between Rammon and Anhur we're based on deals between these Gods.

And Mask being part of the Mulhorandi Pantheon (which was lacking a God of theives) was part of the deal that allowed Bast (Sharess) to join the Faerun Pantheon, but there are reasons for those, I'm not big on conjoining the Mulhorandi Pantheon with the Faerunian Pantheon.

Still it's never really explored what Masks joining the Mulhorandi Pantheon really meant, did Mulhorand give him and his priesthood a position of authority, recigonize his church,give him a mystical connection to the Mulhorand people?

Also there appears to be two Mulhorandi peoples Abeiran Mulhorandi and Toril Mulhorandi, so that makes things interesting in Mulhorand. Did the Abeir Mulhorandi worship the Karshimis Primordial?

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Aldrick
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Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  21:55:27  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is not FR Specific, but this is the Ecology of the Dragonborn, from Dragon #365: http://www.wizards.com/files/365_ecologyotdragonborn.pdf

This could help better understand the Dragonborn of the Realms, provided that information there is guided by what is written by Erin in my previous post.
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Aldrick
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Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  22:00:09  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Also there appears to be two Mulhorandi peoples Abeiran Mulhorandi and Toril Mulhorandi, so that makes things interesting in Mulhorand. Did the Abeir Mulhorandi worship the Karshimis Primordial?


Correct me if I am wrong, but the Mulhorandi that returned from Abeir were those that had conquered Unther, right? Therefore, they would not be in Mulhorand proper, they would be located in the former region controlled by Unther and Tymanther.

I was under the impression, based on what was previously posted, that Mulhorand did not physically go to Abeir. It was just largely destroyed when the lands that would become known as Tymanther came over. In chaos and ruin, the former Mulhorandi lands were eventually conquered by the Imaskari from Deep Imaskar.

Edited by - Aldrick on 23 Jul 2017 22:01:09
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Gyor
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Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  22:08:49  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe that Mulhorand controls some parts of Unther again, but how much I don't know.

Plus it's likely any Abeir Mulhorandi capable of fleeing Gilgeam held parts Unther would flee to Mulhorand held territory as soon as they could.
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  22:30:54  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

very good summarization, but there's some things in there that are assumptions, and some things that are left unclear. So, just to try and provide some alternate views, I'm going to list some of the things I've noted.


Well, yes. Most of it was left deliberately unclear. Not even Erin had idea of what WotC wanted by doing that (I talked with her a lot about those novels). So, that is the official material we have to work with.

Just a minor correction to your theory, though: Remember that Mulhorand never was sent to Abeir. Mulhorand was pretty damaged, yes, but never left Toril. So, you will have to rework your theory of the "returned Mulhorandi gods being primordials" to work with that.

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

"Mulhorand suffered as well as Unther, and while it survived, most of her cities were swallowed by the Alamber Sea or destroyed in the earthquakes. The mulan then, were left mostly homeless and weakened, and then were conquered by the Imaskari wizard Ususi and her Deep Imaskari followers. There is a novel about this, but I haven't read it yet."

Which novel covered that?




A novel called "Darkvision", by Bruce R. Cordell, deals about Ususi and her travel to the surface of Toril.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Be that as it may, even if the Old Empires IS 'just the way they used to be', there is actually a (D&D) precedent for that - the way the Domains of Dread behave. No-one knows for sure if the people and places in Ravenloft are the 'genuine article', or just copies of those things - there is evidence that both are true. When a place becomes part of RL, there are still ruins (usually) left behind on the world that place was from. And in at least one case, when the 'Dark lord' returned to his world, the ruins were replaced with the original version of his lands (Lord Soth of Krynn/DL). In fact, according to the writers of that setting, no time had actually passed (which is why there is conjecture as to whether those folks in RL are just copies). Heck, the Domains of Dread may even be some sort of 'afterlife', and on very rare occasions, the people are restored back to their former lives (maybe is a form of purgatory?)

And the best part is, none of these people ever remember a thing about the changes. There is even at least three precedents for that in FR, that I can think of right off the top of my head - what Ao did to EVERYONE after the ToT, Finder Wyvernspur, and what happened to Kiaransalee. Thus, entire cities - including the people - CAN simply 'be there again' in 5e, even if they were destroyed. Apparently, the universe has 'restore points' where it backs up all of its info, and Overgods (and certain epic magics) have access to that. Its probably temporal in nature, and probably requires permissions by someone 'on high' when Overpowers do it ("I got the orders down from corporate..."). When lesser beings manage to pull these things off (changing the past, or simply ignoring it), its basically just 'hacking the system'. Folks who do that should expect a visit from a Quarut (inevitable of Time).

I think Elves get a 'pass' on all that because of their Fey heritage... but that just relates to my homebrew musings about their High Magic.

EDIT:
And I forgot to make my main point: If Abeir is similar in nature to RL - and there is no reason why it shouldn't be - then perhaps some of the destroyed regions were shifted into Abeir, and they would STILL leave behind wreckage and ruins, in the same way RL does. Now, you can postulate whether the ruins are real, and the settlements in Abeir are the fakes, or the other way around... but does it really matter? In fact, if I am right about how the universe works (like a computer), then those are simply copied files. One world gets a pristine copy, and the other gets a corrupted version (or like how it works in some MMO's - a region 'changes' for some people, after a major, in-game event, and yet other players still see it the way it was originally if they have not triggered said event - each player is still looking at his own copy of the game running locally on his machine, which represents the different worlds in D&D). Thus, the whole question of which is 'the real one' is moot.



The thing with this is that, at least in Erin's novels, there is people with memories of their lives in Abeir, who they were born under oppression and that stuff. How they see that Gilgeam is no better than the Shyran genasies (Namshita and her rebel Untherites, who joined Tymanther in their war against Unther).

There are also this tribe of Abeiran "dream giants" (cloud giants) that were sent from Abeir to Toril during the Sundering 2.0, that also have plenty of their memories of living in Abeir before arriving to Toril.

There is also the fact that Mehen, Farideh and their friends went to Abeir and back again to Toril to recover Azuth's staff. So we know Abeir is an actual place, and not just a copy of some memories from Toril, and that those events actually took place, and weren't just erased because reasons. There is people with memories about it.

quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Retcon time:
In the Sundering we discover that not all of "Unther was destroyed. The Spellplague exchanged most of northern Unther with its equivalent lands in Shyr (Faerūn's equivalent in Abeir), and Tymanchebar just destroyed southern Unther and those Shyran lands."

Where did it say this part?



I asked Erin about this, and Erin said that WotC retconned the much of 4e lore while working on their Sundering plot. So, in 4e Unther was actually and utterly destroyed. But they changed/retconned that to return Unther in 5e.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Jul 2017 22:34:45
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Aldrick
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Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  22:54:22  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I believe that Mulhorand controls some parts of Unther again, but how much I don't know.

Plus it's likely any Abeir Mulhorandi capable of fleeing Gilgeam held parts Unther would flee to Mulhorand held territory as soon as they could.


...but what about the Genasi? lol. I am also not sure why Mulhorand would accept them back since they are now two essentially two separate peoples. I mean, they do share a historical past, but it is a bit like the United Kingdom and the United States. They are effectively two separate nations now. Their cultures and histories have diverged significantly.

I am sure some of them have fled to Mulhorand as refugees, but they would be copperless beggars with little more than the clothes on their backs. Additionally, it is not like you can tell a Mulhorandi refugee from an Untheric refugee since they are all Mulan. Well, except for the people who were not Mulan, but only Mulan people matter in the Old Empires everyone else is either a slave or a second class citizen.

From what I understand based on what Zeromaru X wrote, Gilgiem reappeared on Abeir first before returning to Toril. However, it is unclear how long ago this had happened. I would really like to know the state of affairs of things in Shyr prior to Unther's return to Toril as well as the manner of their return.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I asked Erin about this, and Erin said that WotC retconned the much of 4e lore while working on their Sundering plot. So, in 4e Unther was actually and utterly destroyed. But they changed/retconned that to return Unther in 5e.


Oh, gods. LOL.

Well, that makes things a lot more complicated. So basically we do not know how much of the 4E lore is still actually canon?

Are we talking actual retcons here, as in "this never happened" or a retcon in the sense of "we made significant changes and did not explain how it changed, but all the previous stuff still happened."
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  23:26:49  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I also wrote an article about the Thymari dragonborn in the wiki.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

(Is there any more information on how this went down, or is it open for speculation?)


No more info. Erin's novels is from where most of info about the fate of the mulans in Abeir comes from, and that info is very scarce. From then on, we will have to elaborate.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

- We have, as confirmed in the lore, the following God-kings returned: Gilgeam, Enlil, Nanna-Sin, and...?


And Marduk, who actually never died because he was the dragon god Bahamut in disguise the whole time. So, when "Marduk" died in the Orc Gate Wars, Bahamut just left his "Marduk" persona die and began acting on the Realms as Bahamut the dragon god. By 1480s DR, he was a lesser god in the service of Torm of the Faerunian pantheon, and has a strong presence in the Old Empires area thanks to the Platinum Cadre (a dragonborn religious organization of followers of Bahamut).

And also, the Mulhorandi gods.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

- Asmodeus is somehow involved in what is going down in this region, apparently cutting a deal with Enlil, and in exchange transported the immortal essence of Nanna-Sin into the body of a dragon turtle.


Is more complicated than that. But basically, yes. And also, Azuth is involved in all of this as well.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

So, some additional questions: When the Untheric people returned from Abeir, how long had Gilgiem been around?


We don't know, but at least a few years. Gilgeam was leading the Untherite in a rebellion against the Shyran genasi (he even struck an alliance of sorts with the Demon Lord Graz'zt to get a demon army to bolster his Untherite forces). We also know there are a few Untherite that saw Gilgeam as no better than the Shyran tyrants and formed a rebellion against him (Namshita and her followers).

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Did their "land" swap places on Toril again, or were the people just transported?


Some lands swamped, but not all. Enlil stopped the process half-way, so many of the lands remained the same as they were before the Sundering 2.0. We know most of northern Tymanther was returned to Abeir, and that means a few Unther-Shyr did returned to Toril; but all of central and southern Tymanther remained in Toril. A few farms of northern Tymanther also remained, but were destroyed by Gilgeam and his armies in the following war against Tymanther.

All the Untherans did returned, however. But we don't know what happened with the Abeiran Mulhorandi (if they remained in Shyr or where returned as well).

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

How did the Mulhorandi and Genasi conflict with the Utheric people get solved? Was that solved before or after their return from Abeir?


We know there Gilgeam was leading the Untherans in a rebellion agaisnt the Abeiran Mulhorandi and the Shyran tyrants. We also know that in the eve of a major battle, the Sundering 2.0 happened and all of the Untheran peoples were returned to Toril. We don't know what happened with the Abeiran Mulhorandi and the Shyran after this point.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

What is the state of Tymanther now that the God-kings are back? It seems that some of the God-kings are supporting Tymanther... why would they do this against their own people?


Most of Tymanther (northern Unther) was lost. If it wasn't returned to Abeir (so, we know most of northern Unther is back), was conquered by Gilgeam and his armies. Only central/south Tymanther remained (only two cities of Tymanther exist today: Djerad Thymar and Djerad Kethendi; the rest of current Tymanther are villages or small towns to the south of the River Alamber).

There is a war between "new" Unther and Tymanther. Gilgeam want his former lands back. However, if dragonborn are good at something, is at war. There is a stalemate currently. There are few Untherites who saw Gilgeam as a tyrant, no better than the Shyran genasies and their Abeiran Mulhorandi puppets. Lead by a Untherite general called Namshita, those rebels joined forces with Tymanther against Gilgeam. The rebels now live in Tymanther and are considered one clan of the dragonborn.

At least Enlil, Bahamut (Marduk), and Nanna-Sin (no more a god, but an immortal dragon turtle) are sided with Tymanther. They see Gilgeam as something... wrong. He is either a new god or an imposter (in words of Enlil). Gilgeam even joined forces with the Demon Lord Graz'zt, so definitely there is something wrong with him.

The other Untheran gods oppose Gilgeam and his forces because of that. They care for their people however, so they still aid the Untherite. But they also care for the dragonborn, for some important reason (not revealed in canon). Mind, there are other gods that also care for the dragonborn for that same reason. Like Selūne, for instance.

We don't know what kind of relationship there is between Tymanther and Mulhorand, if there is any (however, Tymanther wanted to see if Mulhorand could make a good ally in the future just before the return of Unther), but we know Gilgeam see Mulhorand as an enemy that he will also conquer as well.

The Mulhorandi gods care for their people. They wanted to defend them and rebuild Mulhorand. Their Chosen/God-Kings are the only known Chosen that still have divine powers in the current Realms. We don't know, however, what is their position about Unther, Tymanther and the Untheran gods.

We don't know what Assuran/Hoar think of the returned Unther and the other God-Kings. If he even care, that is. Same with Mask and Sharess.

We also don't know if the other Untheran gods returned or not, as well. We know, however, that Enlil was rebuilding Zigguraxus in 1487.

Tiamat just hate everyone, as always. Enlil hints that Tiamat is somehow pretty important in all of this, but there is nothing more in canon about this plot.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Jul 2017 00:27:39
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  23:56:48  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Well, that makes things a lot more complicated. So basically we do not know how much of the 4E lore is still actually canon?

Are we talking actual retcons here, as in "this never happened" or a retcon in the sense of "we made significant changes and did not explain how it changed, but all the previous stuff still happened."



WotC said that all what happened in previous editions, happened. They didn't invalidated anything to respect the work of all the people who have worked on the Realms. However, they did changed stuff to return to the "true essence of the Realms".

So, the retcons are more likely in the line of "yeah, we changed how events happened to allow us to introduce this new plot".

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  01:19:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First off, Darkvision had almost NOTHING to do with Imaskar, except for the main character having come from Deep Imaskar (which was still 'deep' at the time). There was a small scene (I loved) wherein she camps-out in an Imaskari ruin (funny how no-one found it before an actual Imaskari was wandering around), and they also get into a bit about the Palace of the Purple Emperor (another ruin...sort of*), and how all that relates to Pandorym. Its very specific plot-points, and there is pretty much nothing about how Imaskari interact with Mulhorandi (in fact, come to think of it, that novel was late 3e, NOT 4e - they were still underground!)

Second, as for people having their memories of Abeir: YES, that does happen. Not everyone's 'memory fades', but we can use that plot-device to explain how some people remember things differently ("Didn't Unther blowup? How can you guys still be alive when the whole thing blew up?") In other words, it would appear that it was the people Left behind on Toril that had 'false memories' (and thats how we explain-away the retcons). People also remember Halruaa blowing up as well.

Mostly I just wanted this as an excuse as to why people saw 'ruins' of Mulhorand and Unther on Toril, and yet, those same exact places were just fine over in Abeir. people saw ruins and recalled the stuff getting destroyed, but that was part of the 'interdimensional trickery' that was going on. Overgods play a 'shell game' with geographic regions like this, apparently.

Man, I hope they left Chult detached, but given their recent focus on the area, I doubt it. How are they going to 'UN-blowup' something like THAT?


*And this just made me realize I can use this to fix a snafu I ran into while reading the novel. The PotPE is an actual, ancient ruin in the sourcebooks, *** Spoiler Alert! *** and yet, that's not what it was at all in the novel. It returned - in a different spot no less - intact (IIRC). So NOW I'm thinking it may have gone to Abeir (or elsewhere) when the Mulan Gods were wrecking the place, and a 'false ruin' was left in place for folks to find. All those gods stomping around (from three - later four - pantheons!) was almost like a region-specific ToT, and probably had a lot of the same 'magical chaos' going on. I think its a good fit.

Its no weirder than Elminster going around and restocking dungeons in his spare time.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jul 2017 01:32:58
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  02:01:07  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Brimstone Angels books were awesome reads. I highly recommend them. Zeromaru X covered what happened in them, so I won't repeat it, but I suggest reading them if you haven't.

Cordell's "Darvision" novel was good, too, and, IIRC, loosely tied to his novel "Stardeep", and the "Abolethic Sovereignty" books.

Anyway, this isn't really my area of expertise, so I don't have much to say, other than what has already been summarized about the novels. I'll follow the thread though and see where it goes :)

Sweet water and light laughter
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  02:04:26  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the fact with Abeir is that plot with the staff of Azuth. That was a major plot in the Sundering 2.0. While on Abeir, literally nobody was able to locate the staff, and believe me, Asmodeus searched in nearly all planes. He could not search in Abeir because the no gods thing, and because of that, the staff was safe there.

That means Abeir is an actual, real place and not a simulation like Ravenloft. If we are going to work with the Ravelonf stuff, we have to device an explanation for the staff of Azuth's plot.

As for Darkvision... since Ususi was the protagonist, I guessed it had something to do with how she became empress of High Imaskar. Well, at least she wasn't a made up from nothing NPC in 4e.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  02:09:53  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know lol, I read the books, I just don't have much to add on the summary at this point.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  02:12:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lol, my post was for Markustay and his theory of the simulated Abeir.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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sleyvas
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  02:30:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

very good summarization, but there's some things in there that are assumptions, and some things that are left unclear. So, just to try and provide some alternate views, I'm going to list some of the things I've noted.

For instance, the whole northerneastern part of Unther/Threskel (including the ship of the gods... which yes did have volcanic activity sometime in the 20 years leading to the spellplague), we're led to believe fell beneath the alamber sea. We don't know is this has rerisen or not, but we've heard rumors that older maps will be more relevant than 4e ones. This kind of implies that Messemprar and Mourktar will be returned (with Messemprar being the last place where Unther held before falling to Mulhorand, and Mourktar being a stronghold for the Tyrant Bane that many Untherites may have fled to). HOMEBREW: This leaves me wondering whether Messemprar and Mourktar and the ship of the gods aren't returned and inhabited by Untherites who took to worshipping "Gilgeam" but the prayers were being answered by Bane, and its Bane that has returned as the "Son of Victory"... or even some kind of Bane/Gilgeam merger similar to the Asmodeus/Azuth thing. Meanwhile, "Gilgeam" is trying to restore Unthalass as its former capital. These areas would also possibly have inhabitants of Shyr or possibly Mulhorandi that subjugated them... or they may not and this area was "cleansed" by Gilgeam and his followers. It should also be noted that this area while in Abeir essentially involved three distinct major "tyrants"... Bane, Gilgeam, and Karshimis the Primordial.... and perhaps that as well can be spun into something. In fact, it may very well be that the Gilgeam we see and hear of is in fact Karshimis forming a manifestation so that he can attempt to invade Toril. SIDENOTE: If that were in fact the case, then theoretically "Enlil" might be a primordial of lightning.

On the Incarnations idea, I personally like the idea that those "chosen" are in fact incarnations that started showing the effects of being incarnations while in Abeir, and that perhaps there were two different groupings of Mulhorandi. For instance, I see the ones in Threskel/Unther that were servants of the Shyran and who maybe saw the Primordial Karshimis as the equivalent of the manifestations that they worshipped just 27 years prior to the spellplague. In fact, some may have thought him to be an incarnation of Geb or the "Raumathari" entity Kossuth... or they may have simply seen him as a new tyrant and the Untheric people immediately subjugated themselves and their Mulhorandi masters had to acquiesce to survive. We know very little about Karshimis' actual elemental "makeup", though we know he had a Citadel of Burning Ice... that may mean he has power over fire or ice or both, or it may have no meaning, so we don't know what he appeared like to the transferred people of northern Unther. Meanwhile, in Mulhorand itself, the Shyran's maybe try to oppress them and the "god-kings" come back into play as incarnations.


Enlil is returned to Toril as a deity, but he is returned to both Untherites and dragonborn. He is represented as "breath" and "lightning", so mainly as a protective storm god. HOMEBREW: This would conflict with the idea of Ramman returning, and so I'd recommend sticking with Anhur as the deity of war. I'd say similar with Ishtar and stick with the use of Isis. In fact, I'd stick with just Enlil, Gilgeam, and Assuran as being the remaining gods of Unther..... and I'd even include a heresy being spread by some that Assuran of the Three Thunders is really using Enlil's name and what's happening is that neither Gilgeam or Enlil have truly returned, and its simply Bane posing as Gilgeam and Assuran posing as Enlil

By the way, I'm not sure if anything was ever done with this from the 4e FRCG
The Gates of Burning Mountain: One of the Smoking Mountains periodically erupts, raining down hot ash for miles in every direction. Stories have it that a mad, entombed primordial transposed from Abeir is responsible for the eruptions, though no one knows for sure. A number of eyewitness accounts describe one new and surprising discovery uncovered by a recent eruption: sealed adamantine gates a hundred feet high in the mountain’s side.
HOMEBREW: This primordial may in fact be one of several "manifestations" of Talos and his godly aspect was in fact the culmination of the combining of the powers of several primordial-like entities... possibly this one, Bhaelros, Kozah, etc... Or it could have been a primordial which Karshimis entombed that transferred from Abeir... or it could even be a "copy" of Karshimis that was created during the spellplague when all the land was copying

In the area of western Threskel, there was a dracolich who I believe was at least temporarily destroyed and a vampiric green dragon who I'm unsure of his fate. There was also a group of the Cult of the Dragon and a Thayan embassy with ties to Szass Tam and his necromancers.
HOMEBREW: I have stated several times that I want to have a portion of the Shaar returned with a new red wizard Tharch there which is against Thayan influence, which I'm calling the Tharch of Pelevar. I also want Cimbar and Soorenar returned as a remote portion of this Tharch, and these two cities to have a strong Velsharoon and "living" undead presence. That makes this necromantic place of Western Threskel as a perfect place for a conflict with the new red wizard tharchs and the existing Thayans serving Tam.

In Chessenta, we also have the literally destroyed area created by the Maw of the Godswallower.
HOMEBREW: I've discussed the idea of having a portion of Abeir transferring over. I've discussed having this called "the Red Mineral Forest of Shyr" in this candlekeep forum thread. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21647
It could also be interesting maybe if during the Sundering 2.0 that whatever was in the gates of the burning mountains is released and maybe takes control of this area and the ash giants .... and maybe some fire giants who are more elemental in nature. Maybe some "stone giants" like are presented in Erins novels as well that may tend the red mineral forest of shyr.... I need to ponder this idea of a giant kingdom here with a primordial ruler, but it could prove interesting.


I'm going to stop here, because I need to go do something, but let's continue this thread for ideas.




The Bane Gilgeam connection can't work because the new Gilgeam emerged in Abeir where Bane can't reach (Gilgeam could because he corspe would have been transported to Abeir).

If Ramman returns it's likely as a an adopted Mulhorand deity because he gave his power, I guess including that of his incarnation, to Anhur, just as Ishtar gave her incarnation to Isis when she left Toril, so both would manifest perhaps separate, Incarnations for Ramman and Ishtar when they returned with the rest of the Pantheon.

Also Mask was said to be a member of the Mulhorandi Pantheon, is he required to send an incarnation to Mulhorand?



Bane could if the Toril Bane is actually not "Bane" but the godson,Iyachtu Xvim, posing as Bane. If the artifact known as "The Black Lord's Cloak" that's in Mourktar which is said to be intelligent actually maintains some link to the actual Bane, and if Mourktar transferred to Abeir.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Aldrick
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  02:41:26  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, thanks Zeromaru X. I think I have a loose understanding of the current state of affairs in the Old Empires.

I am going to try and fill in some lore gaps, mostly focusing on events that took place on Abeir.

This might be interesting and relevant from Powers and Pantheons, pg. 105:
quote:
Following Gilgeams death, a few of his priests survived the general rebellion and fled to a secret stronghold hidden in the eastern branch of the Smoking Mountains. The Citadel of Black Ash is a dark fortress filled with slaves forced to mine the depths for gems and precious metals and grim-faced priests who chant endless dirges to their fallen lord and plot revenge against the people of Unther, Mulhorand, Chessenta, and the Realms in general. The Gilgeamites have allied with a large clan of fire giants and numerous other monstrous inhabitants of the volcanic mountain chain. In the past few months their prayers have been answered, and they are being granted spells again. Although they believe they have contacted Gilgeam who they believe is not dead, but in exile, in fact their spells are being secretly granted by Set who seeks to expand his influence into Unther.


What if this surviving cult of Gilgeam, the Fire Giants, and the Citadel of Black Ash were transported intact to Abeir during the Spellplague? Let's say it is in a remote and mountainous region of Shyr.

Because Set cannot contact Abeir the priests lose their ability to engage in divine spellcasting again. However, let's say after a decade or so a powerful demon in service to Graz'zt "hears" the pleas of the priests. They begin to receive dream visions from this demon masquerading as their dead deity. Over the next several decades they begin a plan for the resurrection of their god who has promised them vengeance against the Genasi Shyrian's as well as the Mulhorandi.

This decade's long quest begins with them completing a ritual that allows the demon to be summoned and inhabit a stone statue of Gilgeam within their fortress. This is similar to how Gargauth inhabits a shield. This allows the demon to commune with them much easier, and being physically on the same plane as them, it aids the demon in assisting them with magic. The next step they underwent was to collect artifacts and fragments of Gilgeam that had come to Abeir.

According to Faith's and Avatars, pg. 14:
quote:
Both Tiamat's avatar and Gilgeam's avatar died a messy death that ranged over several of the Outer Planes and ended in the obliteration of most of the decrepit city of Unthalass.


Since Gilgeam's manifestation/avatar died over such a range, it is possible that fragments of that manifestation/avatar, as well as objects that were closely associated with it, may have ended up on Abeir. So, let's say that this cult finds some stuff like the skull of Gilgeam, some finger bones, and maybe his decaying heart. Foul rituals are performed by the cult which allows the demon to absorb the divine fragments from those pieces of Gilgeam, but it is still not enough. "Gilgeam" needs a vessel. The cult is sent to seek out two individuals in particular, as the demon detects that they have blood ties to the ancient incarnations of other deities. They are captured by the cult and forced to breed during another foul ritual. The child that is born is the future vessel, and it contains all of the fragments of Untheric incarnations on Abeir. Once the child reaches adulthood and has proven himself worthy, another foul ritual is performed. During this ritual, the demon, possessing the fragments of Gilgeam's divinity, merges with the vessel and its divine fragments. This essentially transforms the vessel "the Son of Gilgeam" into a minor manifestation of the demon who now has full control over the vessel.

The cult of Gilgeam has also played a key role in assisting Untheric rebels fleeing slavery. With Gilgeam's "return" they are prepared to make their big move. Some hundred and fifty miles from the Capital City of Shyr is where they first strike, launching a slave rebellion that will soon engulf the entire Shyran empire. (Think Spartacus--if Spartacus was a supernatural being of immense power.) Within two weeks time the war has engulfed the capital city itself, and the entire southern portion of the empire is aflame. Within ten days time the capital city is taken by Gilgeam's forces, and every Genasi--man, woman, and child--is slaughtered. The Emperor of Shyr is also dead, as is the entire royal family.

However, Gilgeam is not done. Those Mulhorandi who are freed are captured and brought to a large space within the Imperial City. There they are massacred in a horrific blood ritual to the Demon Lord Graz'zt, opening up a permanent gate between Abeir and the Abyss, and allowing demons to flow through to serve and fight for Gilgeam. This is when the "real" war begins.

At this point, Namshita, one of the liberated slave generals turned on Gilgeam. They began a guerilla war against the Shyran's as well as Gilgeam's forces. Surviving Mulhorandi were also allowed to join Namshita's guerilla forces.

A few months after all of this the Sundering happens. Gilgeam, a sizeable number of his forces, Namshita and a sizeable number of her forces, all find their way back to Toril. The portal to the abyss is left back on Abeir--presumably with demons loyal to Graz'zt still coming through. Shyr will eventually fall completely to demonic generals, and the entire land will be ruled by demons which will eventually pose a threat to the rest of the lands of Abeir until the gate to the Abyss is closed.

Back on Toril, the rest of the events play out as they did in the canon.

Does this contradict anything?
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Aldrick
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  02:53:02  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Bane could if the Toril Bane is actually not "Bane" but the godson,Iyachtu Xvim, posing as Bane. If the artifact known as "The Black Lord's Cloak" that's in Mourktar which is said to be intelligent actually maintains some link to the actual Bane, and if Mourktar transferred to Abeir.


Ohh! That is interesting. What happened to Mourktar, according to canon? Wasn't it involved in a novel somewhere and was still on Toril?

Although, even if it went over to Abeir, and we managed to link all that stuff up, it would be odd for Bane to strike up an alliance with a demon lord rather than an arch devil. Unfortunately, that much--the bit about Gilgeam striking up an alliance with Graz'zt--appears to be written into canon.

That being said, I always loved Mourktar and the Church of Bane there. Since it was never described in the Realms how Bane returned, in my home Realms Bane came back in a similar manner to what you described with the aid of this cult. They ultimately conquered Threskel and then the lands of Unther.
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