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 enough with fonts, there's another level
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feldgangende
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  07:20:03  Show Profile Send feldgangende a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
i'm looking to make a complete espruar language pack, instead of a simple font-replacement overlay for the standard english keyboard. it would be english (espruar,+altgr keyboard). new espruar, perhaps. the original was short on phonemes (had ,.n, etc; but no distinct (g) and a truncated vowel structure) and lacked punctuation. vowels are easy enough (e,i,o could use diacritical marks; a,u would need dias and bar form). i'm not sure about the number system. i can do the programming myself and put on github. looking for artists to draw up new alphabet characters, anyone willing to help construct the dictionary (easy, but time consuming), and any other input.

feldgangende
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  10:08:11  Show Profile Send feldgangende a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well, the alternate letters in my first post have changed. not sure why they would, since they were typed with the standard utf-8 english(international). they were right to the espruar alphabet then, they are not now, move along...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5987 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  15:36:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've done a little font creation (and I mean little) with High Logic FontCreator. I, however, am NOT an artist. The reason why I'm posting is I don't really understand your end goal and/or how you plan to use it. Are you in essence wanting to create an espruar font which also has things like commas, quotation marks, apostrophes, question marks, periods, exclamation points, monetary symbols like dollars and cents, etc... and you'd like someone to help develop what they'd look like?

I know here on candlekeep we already have the espruar font from 1e and I think also the new espruar that came with I think 3e. I think they have the original dethek here as well. I've personally also produced some of the other more rare realms fonts. So with that in mind, in case you, or anyone else, might be interested in those, here's some links to them. BTW, just an idea towards their use that I've considered is using them in case someone wants to produce a DMS Guild Hordelands supplement or Kara-Tur Supplement, they can be used to make a nice border with some "hidden through weird characters" message that also may look neat. So, if you add my Ra-Khati, Semphari, Shou-Chiang, or Tuigan fonts into say a jpeg image that you use as the background for all your pages, I'm cool with that. BTW, speaking of that, does anyone know if there was ever an official "font" made for Al-Qadim languages, or might they be using some nearby cultures font such as Semphari or Ra-Khati?

Ra-Khati
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8CYc8h_6sg8TEdfbVFKemJ2RTA/view?usp=sharing

Semphari
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8CYc8h_6sg8dG9fUzV4LVFsd28/view?usp=sharing

Shou-Chiang
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8CYc8h_6sg8YXBoRV9iMHBrbTg/view?usp=sharing

Tuigan
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8CYc8h_6sg8cWtTbG1iM0p3Rjg/view?usp=sharing

and also I pulled Barazhad Elemental from 4e, but I know others have also done this one
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8CYc8h_6sg8eXRRMTRzNm04NTA/view?usp=sharing

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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feldgangende
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  19:03:04  Show Profile Send feldgangende a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i'm wanting a full language option, similar to cyrillic, hindi, mandarin. keyboard switch language input (i currently have mine set to switch on _CapsL_), spell checker and dictionary (no *they* when you have *#240;*) and so on. this would also enable auto-translate for the web. i'd like, if possible, to extend it out a bit further in terms of letters and punctuation to make it a full function written language (primarily for english, but could easily be adapted for other phonetic systems) and more punctuation to make it compatible with the modern web. once that's all set up, it's a matter of getting sites/servers/browsers to add the pack. facebook is fairly congenial, some of the other social network sites might be as well.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5987 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  20:30:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by feldgangende

i'm wanting a full language option, similar to cyrillic, hindi, mandarin. keyboard switch language input (i currently have mine set to switch on _CapsL_), spell checker and dictionary (no *they* when you have *#240;*) and so on. this would also enable auto-translate for the web. i'd like, if possible, to extend it out a bit further in terms of letters and punctuation to make it a full function written language (primarily for english, but could easily be adapted for other phonetic systems) and more punctuation to make it compatible with the modern web. once that's all set up, it's a matter of getting sites/servers/browsers to add the pack. facebook is fairly congenial, some of the other social network sites might be as well.




Ok, I just have to ask.... why? The only reason I could see for this is some kind of weird encryption (I'm picturing the Navajo windtalkers that used their language in world war II), but it being a font, someone could just convert the font... so it wouldn't be a good encryption.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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feldgangende
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2017 :  20:47:02  Show Profile Send feldgangende a Private Message  Reply with Quote
no, i mean being able to actually use it on the web, read/write books, and so on. there are quite a few constructed languages out there, and dozens of scripts, but so far it's all used in closed groups outside of the web, or in limited areas online with images. i'm wanting to push this script up to actual living alphabet status, with a core set of peripherals. why? why not? i like the aesthetics much more than the current mash-up latin alphabet we use, our spelling system is atrocious (there's been a push for years for both simplified english and simplified technical english, but our current alphabet use 26 of 100ish international latin character sets to convey over 50 phonemes), and while somewhat time consuming, it's really a simple straightforward process, just nobodies done it. no reason it couldn't be done with dethek or thorass, or any other, i just like espruar more.

Edited by - feldgangende on 22 Jul 2017 20:48:39
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1478 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2017 :  15:55:25  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by feldgangende

i'm wanting a full language option, similar to cyrillic, hindi, mandarin. keyboard switch language input (i currently have mine set to switch on _CapsL_), spell checker and dictionary (no *they* when you have *#240;*) and so on.

Input method/language options are platform-dependent, obviously. Which instantly limits their use.

quote:
this would also enable auto-translate for the web.

Er... how do you imagine that?

quote:
i'd like, if possible, to extend it out a bit further in terms of letters and punctuation to make it a full function written language (primarily for english, but could easily be adapted for other phonetic systems) and more punctuation to make it compatible with the modern web. once that's all set up, it's a matter of getting sites/servers/browsers to add the pack. facebook is fairly congenial, some of the other social network sites might be as well.

Web stuff can and should be platform-independent, that's the whole point. And what can't be done server-side usually can be done client-side (via GreaseMonkey, etc).

So... what you want is an Unicode font allowing to use Latin and Espruar characters next to each other without need to explicitly select a custom font every time? Easy to do via stuffing new characters into Private Use area.
All it takes is to plan "which character goes where" map, then fire up FontForge or whatever editor you prefer and make a modification of some GPL font - there's a good choice of these.
Have fun.

This will make few things easier than simply linking a custom font in style sheets, however. Because any font that you can link this way already allows this much via "unicode-range" set in the style.
If you mess with CSS either way, all you need is a custom style tag - much like italics, underscore etc, but selecting another font rather than font style.

The only practical difference is that you could also use a "properly" customized font in offline editors and spreadsheets (LibreOffice).

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5987 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2017 :  12:40:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey TBeholder,

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make a guess? Based on how you talk in a lot of things... are you a programmer or web developer? Just to throw out there, I'm a network engineer, so that's why I'm curious.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1478 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2017 :  17:40:33  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hey TBeholder,

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make a guess? Based on how you talk in a lot of things... are you a programmer or web developer? Just to throw out there, I'm a network engineer, so that's why I'm curious.

Sort of. I don't know web stuff well, just where legs grow from the basics and how to find the rest. Enough to write simple Greasemonkey scripts whenever this can make something easier, but not enough to write something like Webcomic Reader.
You're looking for people to cobble together some project, too?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6399 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2017 :  19:41:20  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Still slightly confused about the objective here.

To create a written Espruar font to overlay onto English text?

Or to create a written Espruar language which can be translated into English?

Why? As in, what useful or technical or artistic goal will this achieve? "Why not" isn't enough of an argument to persuade talented people towards any cause.

[/Ayrik]
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feldgangende
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2017 :  18:35:54  Show Profile Send feldgangende a Private Message  Reply with Quote
a complete phonetic alphabet, using the espruar font. it would be used for english, yes. but could also be used for spanish, italian, etc.

written language is seperate from spoken language. how many languages use a variant of latin? cyrillic? if your computer is set for spanish, you have a couple extra characters, but the same keyboard layout. same for icelandic. i would prefer to start with an english version, since it is my primary language.

this would be a complete language package, no different than installing french or mandarin. compatibility for linux and mac is not that difficult, don't play with windows enough these days to know how hard that would be.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5987 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2017 :  21:08:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hey TBeholder,

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and make a guess? Based on how you talk in a lot of things... are you a programmer or web developer? Just to throw out there, I'm a network engineer, so that's why I'm curious.

Sort of. I don't know web stuff well, just where legs grow from the basics and how to find the rest. Enough to write simple Greasemonkey scripts whenever this can make something easier, but not enough to write something like Webcomic Reader.
You're looking for people to cobble together some project, too?



No, I was just curious from a cultural perspective. Its something we've discussed in our offices in the past how different types of IT basically have their own languages, patterns, and ways they "see" the world, etc...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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feldgangende
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2017 :  22:22:21  Show Profile Send feldgangende a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hm, missed a post in the discussion.

i do not want a grease-monkey plug-in, or a *font changer*. i work with multiple languages, and am used to switching between alphabets/writing systems/languages. i'm not looking to switch between (26 character,2 tier, replicated sounds)latin and espruar(22characters, 2 tier, 26 characters total). it should be a fully developed stand-alone alphabet, 2 (possibly 3) tier. some hedging, either 19 characters with 11 in the second tier and voiceless aspirants (h,y), or (if you combine b/v and lose x) 18/13. h and y are currently in espruar, but the sounds in some languages are expressed as accent points on other letters, and with 2-tier consonants and vowels, they're use falls through the floor anyways. third tier might come in useful for some of the distinct vowel-specific vocalizations that simply get written as either high or low but actually fall outside that, or for non-english languages that incorporate other sounds not found in english.
i want to have my computers/tablet/etc run natively in non-latin simplified english using a full espruar character set, with a complete simplified english espruar alphabet dictionary for docs, etc. and, of course, you would need browser plug-ins.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1478 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2017 :  05:16:25  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by feldgangende

i do not want a grease-monkey plug-in, or a *font changer*. i work with multiple languages, and am used to switching between alphabets/writing systems/languages.

What would be included in such language support? A dictionary of known words, font and input method support.
There's almost no data to work with, beyond the alphabet as such. Thus not much more that can be meaningfully done other than making it a full font family in a way allowing to use it without jumping through hoops (beyond selecting the font as such), and input method for it.
Though as long as typing a lot is not a requirement and you can settle on selecting symbols from the list, something like abcTajpu may be a viable substitute for input method.
Though a good character map program is better - e.g. GNOME Character Map allows to toggle at least bold and italic as well as select the font, avoiding "try and then look in proper WYSIWYG whether this was what you wanted" picking.
quote:
it should be a fully developed stand-alone alphabet, 2 (possibly 3) tier. some hedging, either 19 characters with 11 in the second tier and voiceless aspirants (h,y), or (if you combine b/v and lose x) 18/13. h and y are currently in espruar [...] or for non-english languages that incorporate other sounds not found in english.

O-okay. But what do we know about Espruar? Only the basic version of the alphabet itself and a few examples?
Though given its origin, possibility of extensions and fancy tweaks is indeed high.
Asking Ed may help. Then again, the technical side of passing the answer along can be troublesome for all parties involved. But we won't know until someone actually asks.
quote:
i want to have my computers/tablet/etc run natively in non-latin simplified english using a full espruar character set, with a complete simplified english espruar alphabet dictionary for docs, etc. and, of course, you would need browser plug-ins.

To use it as a language there isn't enough of, well, language.
And other than this, there's just not much that can be done with available data, other than Unicode font support (properly done and perhaps more complete than the demo version we have now), input method customisation and dictionary of known words.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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feldgangende
Acolyte

USA
8 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2017 :  08:17:56  Show Profile Send feldgangende a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*sigh* perhaps i should have thrown this question up in the linguistics forums and hoped for some fantasy buffs. my point doesn't really seem to be getting across here.
writing a custom dictionary is simple. in this case, it wouldn't even be writing one, simply editing it. half the work would be search/ match for specific letter combinations and ctl+v replace. simple, but tedious. other people can add other language dictionaries if they wish.
we have enough of a language. we have modern english. you can write modern english in latin, hangul, cyrillic, to a limited degree in hiragana, and so on. just add espruar to that list.
actually have used gnome character before. yes, you can just switch which kb your using. but even in chat boxes, not using urls, it would make little sense to anyone not using that specific character map. thus the dictionary/language pack integration.
i do recommend, for those interested, to look into belgian layouts, english (english-international,+altgr), or neo-workman if they do not understand what i mean by multiple tiers.
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