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 (Second Attempt) How should the canon be handled?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14197 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  20:59:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thats one way of putting it.

One last ting - CENTAURS.

I absolutely insist any CandleKanon project includes Centaur love. My favorite, classic 'monster' and it hardly gets any face-time in FR.

I'm thinking the Wemics become the dominant (unsettled lands) creatures in the Shaar, and having them 'gone' from the Shining Plains. I realize the city of Nathlekh is in the vicinity, but one of the few places the centaurs have major history is right there, in the Shining Plains.

I am even leaning toward a 'returned' kingdom of centaurs over near Thay somewhere. Maybe stick them in one of those 'empty' kingdoms (The Great Dale or Thesk). The ones over in the Shining Plains (which became something called 'Nathlan' in 4e?) would be the traditional, high-fantasy types, but I'm thinking something a bit darker for the Unapproachable East ones - maybe an aggressive, armor-wearing, bronze-age culture. The Great Dale would probably make the better fit, and I wouldn't mind finally changing that overly-long name.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
722 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  21:20:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

I'm fine with including *everything*. I get that some people *like* spellplague. However, the wiki tends to exclude and be of limited use for people looking for any older realms lore due to its focus on " what is it according to wotc *now*", and I'd like to point out that it's not only people who like the new stuff that you should be careful not to exclude.



The problem with the wiki is that while some articles are well done, others are outdated. I became part of the wiki for the same reason as yours: I find one article to be "incomplete", I happen to know about it, and I completed it. Then, I found more articles to be like that, and... well, I began to help the guys of the wiki. Believe, there is a lot of work to do in the wiki, despite the loads and loads of work the users that are there from before me already did it.

The problem is that my Realmslore is very limited to post-4e (that is the edition I have the material for), and the Old Empires (and I had to bought the books of that region to get certain proficiency in Old Empires Realmslore).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe

USA
138 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  21:30:47  Show Profile  Visit Adhriva's Homepage  Send Adhriva an AOL message  Send Adhriva a Yahoo! Message Send Adhriva a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure a level of detail by color coding editions is needed or even prudent. It's a fanon wiki, not a canon wiki - the difference is that the majority of its content will be fan created material that ties-in to existing sources and those canon resources are also more likely to be pointing to the FRwiki instead of copied and sorted.

Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

255 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  21:43:59  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted "Yes" on this... I support a consensus around 1500 DR Shieldmeet as the timeline point. However, I think we should always be able to find some way to integrate official lore from future WotC publications into the Candlekanon project.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
306 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  21:46:21  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We've already outlined how in many instances the fr wiki is not helpful or useful to people as a reference source, and in many instances it seems to be lacking deliberately, by design, because they cut the older or retconned content and only show the new stuff that is not what the user is looking for. And where that new stuff is messing with older realmslore isn't even marked, so if you're not using the retcons, your only options are to ignore it as a resource and use the old books, or to treat it as it died after a given point (which for me was September 2008).

The project as proposed seemed to be for managing an fr Canon in its entirety, and that sounds like it will need to be a single unified source.

If it does just link to fr wiki everywhere, that will drastically reduce its relevance to me.

If it's just for posting homebrew realmslore, what's the benefit of it over the existing options such as dms guild?

A complete realmcyclopedia that's useful to all realms fans as a reference source is what we're lacking. We already have places to post homebrew.

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)

Edited by - Sylrae on 28 Jul 2017 21:53:43
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
722 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  23:01:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

If it's just for posting homebrew realmslore, what's the benefit of it over the existing options such as dms guild?


That there will be a consensus to form a unified, comprehensible canon. Not just some homebrew about Waterdeep, that contradicts this other homebrew about Waterdeep.

As for the enciclopedia, that one is the FR Wiki. In my articles, I recognize those retcons (when they are retcons, and not just evolved changes). For instance, this article about Astilabor, where I point out her inconsistent power levels between editions. There are many articles with those clarifications as well. But as I said before, most of the wiki is outdated/incomplete, and not all the articles follow the edition guidelines of the wiki (one of those rules is to document every version of a given information, and to point out retcons and changes).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2042 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  00:00:15  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree on the color coding, or something along those lines. We can point out conflicting lore from edition to edition, and, in some, if not all instances, find a way to "blend them" together.

Btw, I am out of town for the next few days, and so time and internet access are limited, so I may not be very active, but I was able to hop on for a little while.

So, how do we determine who works on what? If we're "breaking it up" into smaller chunks, what if several people want to work on the same thing?

Sweet water and light laughter
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  01:22:21  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

We've already outlined how in many instances the fr wiki is not helpful or useful to people as a reference source, and in many instances it seems to be lacking deliberately, by design, because they cut the older or retconned content and only show the new stuff that is not what the user is looking for. And where that new stuff is messing with older realmslore isn't even marked, so if you're not using the retcons, your only options are to ignore it as a resource and use the old books, or to treat it as it died after a given point (which for me was September 2008).


The FR Wiki, like all Wiki's, can be edited by anyone. Rather than dividing up lore by edition, I think it makes more sense to divide things up by the various ages in Realms history.

- Days of Thunder (-35000 DR to -30000 DR)
- Dawn Ages (-30000 DR to -24000 DR
- First Flowering (-24000 DR to -12000 DR)
- Crown Wars (-12000 DR to -9000 DR)
- Founding Time (-9000 DR to -3000 DR)
- Age of Humanity (-3000 DR to 1357 DR)
- Era of Upheaval (1358 DR to 1488 DR)
- Present Age (1489 DR to Present Day)

This is far more useful to us rather than dividing up things by edition. It also makes it easier for us to spot lore gaps and continuity problems. If attempted to divide things up by edition we run into the problem of historical stuff being added in later editions. (For example, information about Netheril being revealed in 3rd Edition, but separated from the information about Netheril known in 2nd Edition, which is in turn separated from the stuff known in 1st Edition--to say nothing about anything revealed in 4th or 5th edition.)

When dealing with retcons, handle it the same way the Cosmology (the largest retcon of the setting) was handled: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Cosmology

This makes the information being shared useful to everyone who views the Wiki, regardless of the era or edition that they choose to play in. It also makes it useful to the Candlekanon, because it gives us the opportunity to go in and fill in holes and unexplained problems with the lore.

quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

The project as proposed seemed to be for managing an fr Canon in its entirety, and that sounds like it will need to be a single unified source.


The FRWiki exists to manage the FR Canon in its entirety and to be a single unified source of canon. There may be duplicated material on the Candlekanon, but that is because it would also include non-canon material. So, for example, there is no reason for the Candlekanon to have a page explaining the World Tree cosmology. We may have a page discussing the various "interpretation" of the cosmology, but the central focus of the cosmology for the Candlekanon will be the one that is accepted and put forward by the community. That will be the recognized cosmology for the Candlekanon, and if someone is interested in say, the World Tree, they can read about that on the FR Wiki.

Where we are duplicating information it is where we are adding additional lore. So, for example, we might also have a page on Raedra Obarskyr, it may also duplicate all of the information on the FRWiki, but it would exist on the Candlekanon because we are making adding non-WotC canon material about the character and the setting.

So, there is a really bright dividing line between the two Wikis. One focuses on Candlekanon--a community canon--and the other focuses on WotC canon.

Ideally, one day, we will reach a point where the canon Realms will be 100% on the FRWiki, making everything easy to find and navigate. This also makes the work on the Candlekanon easier, because it greatly reduces research time.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5987 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  02:44:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Thats one way of putting it.

One last ting - CENTAURS.

I absolutely insist any CandleKanon project includes Centaur love. My favorite, classic 'monster' and it hardly gets any face-time in FR.

I'm thinking the Wemics become the dominant (unsettled lands) creatures in the Shaar, and having them 'gone' from the Shining Plains. I realize the city of Nathlekh is in the vicinity, but one of the few places the centaurs have major history is right there, in the Shining Plains.

I am even leaning toward a 'returned' kingdom of centaurs over near Thay somewhere. Maybe stick them in one of those 'empty' kingdoms (The Great Dale or Thesk). The ones over in the Shining Plains (which became something called 'Nathlan' in 4e?) would be the traditional, high-fantasy types, but I'm thinking something a bit darker for the Unapproachable East ones - maybe an aggressive, armor-wearing, bronze-age culture. The Great Dale would probably make the better fit, and I wouldn't mind finally changing that overly-long name.






Actually what if the wemics own the western shaar and the centaurs are prominent in the eastern shaar and also in the hordelands (I've never understood why there weren't more centaurs in the hordelands). With the possible renewal caused by the sundering on the "shaar desolation" (because we don't truly know the extent of the results of the filling in of the underchasm... but I'd prefer that the western shaar get renewed... we have enough deserts). The wemics might actually return to the Shaar from the shining plains when they hear that their homeland is restored... and the wemics and elves may end up in a fight for the restored territory.

That being said, over in Katashaka I'm having enough cat folk stuff with wemics, tauric versions of other great cats, lamias, lion cat humanoids, rakasta-like cat folk, tabaxi, paka, pumaji (my version of the Ghirrash that are from the prime material), rakshasa, sphinxes, griffins and variant griffins with other cat/bird combos, weretigers, werepanthers, wereleopards, werejaguars, tressym, lammasu, and yes winged great cats, etc... so that if someone can't get enough cat culture I don't know what to do (that being said, its not all cats). Hell, I even named one of my tharchs "the Western Pridelands". I'm perfectly happy having the wemics in Faerun get underplayed and maybe having a much lesser population of them as a result of the shaar desolation.

In the area where I have Peleveran in fact, I really like the idea of having a horse culture to a degree as well. I'm having some of the Crintri actually have been hunting for horses in the Shaar when the spellplague happened. I'm having the Thayans having some of their centaur soldiers having bred large families as well. I'd also like for the transferred Chessentans to have developed better cavalry skills while in Abeir. I plan on having the people of Peleveran also having contact with the drow beneath said region as well, to make the Crintri population expand. When things return, I want to have it that the people of Peleveran have several goals in mind. The Crintri for instance want to take their homeland in Dambrath back. The red wizards want to plot against Tam. Some of the people may not like Tymanther because maybe they had problems with Tymanchebar. Some of them may not like Unther/Mulhorand as well. Some of them may see the Karanoks in control of Chessenta and it boils their blood that the stories they heard of nut bars in that town are now controlling "their homeland". Some may want to expand into the western shaar.

Oh, also along the lines of that stuff. I am having a small population of zebra-like centaurs in Katashaka. I'm also having the Thayans up in Anchorome having a significant centaur population as well (in the Tharchs of Esh Alakar and Balduran Bay) and these centaurs do NOT like the Poscadar Elves.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Jul 2017 02:51:51
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
241 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  13:11:09  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the current outline of the project. Well, I would, seeing as it's everything I proposed . I don't have anything more to add, really.

In any case, the Candlekeep Wiki is already up and running, with three people laying out and working on their projects. I'll put some more of mine up whenever I get a solid chance. CKW-specific issues can start being discussed there in the Forum. I would recommend keeping discussion and voting at the wiki for easier reference and linking.

It took me a while to get back into this, then I heard the Forgotten Realms Wiki being badmouthed and came running. (Thanks Zeromaru and Aldrick for sticking up for it!)

quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

Oh. I'm aware that's how you see it. That the sites true purpose is to be faithful to current canon, with no regard for what was previously canon, no consideration for how current canon's reconsider maybe controversial. Not as a general reference tool for all Canon realmslore for users. Being useful for FR fans as a reference source for running games is a secondary concern for you guys.


quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

I'm fine with including *everything*. I get that some people *like* spellplague. However, the wiki tends to exclude and be of limited use for people looking for any older realms lore due to its focus on " what is it according to wotc *now*", and I'd like to point out that it's not only people who like the new stuff that you should be careful not to exclude.


Not at all true. Our mission has always been to document the entirety of the Realms in every edition. As our Canon policy details, the 1st-edition lore is just as valid as the 4th-editon and the 5th-edition lore. We don't play favourites with editions one way or the other. We seek to add it all, provides dates for context, and note any changes and discrepancies for the reader to choose what they like.

Unfortunately, went 4th edition came out, its fans did an orc-horde rush on the wiki, adding 4e lore and removing swathes of earlier content. I would regard this as mass vandalism. The regular editors at the time struggled to keep up. But that time has past, and our current editors are more on top of things, enforcing the edition-neutral view and maintaining content from all eras. It helps a lot that 5e's slow-release of the FR setting has made the influx of 5e lore a steady drip-feed rather than a flood.

By the way, if you know of an article where old lore was removed, tell us or tell me now, and we will fix it. It's all preserved in edit histories and can be restored.

And yes, in many old articles and undeveloped topics, particularly general guff, 4e lore is still prominent, but that's not indicative of what we want. It's undeveloped cruft we're waiting for people to put serious work on. Wikis are always incomplete. The articles developed in the last several years, such as those showcased on the Main Page, display the all-edition-friendly approach.

In fact, most of our current dedicated editors (and there's only about a dozen of us) are solidly into 1e, 2e, and 3e, and only two have a 4e and 5e focus (Zeromaru X's stirling work on Returned Abeir and dragonborn, for example) so I'm afraid we currently have a poor showing of 4e and 5e lore.

quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

I'm asking that whatever format this new Canon reference takes, that it puts its usability as a reference source first, visually delineates what edition any given realms lore comes from, and includes all of it, and visually highlights the retcons vs previous contradicted canon.

As an example, 1e realmslore might be in front of a grey background, 2e on a blue background, 3e on a green background, 4e on a purple background, and 5e on a brown background. Any time there is a contradiction, both sets of information are listed along with their edition source in front of a red background.


Colour-coded text and/or backgrounds would be so excruciating ugly as to be unreadable. It wouldn't be whole paragraphs, but individual sentences and clauses cited to different sources. The eye would struggle to adapt to all the colour changes, and wiki links are already coloured. And what about lore repeated in multiple editions? Rainbows? It would be difficult to code as well, with every sentence and clause a separate template and edition marker. It would be hard to expect unfamiliar users to pick it up or remember the colour scheme.

If anyone's uncertain about a source for a statement, just click on the superscripted number following it. It will take you to the source in the References section. Click on the number there to go back.

Mouse-over pop-up reference details would be nice, if someone can work them out.

Otherwise, our current policy of simply dating all the lore and placing it in chronological order with sections to delineate differences is an effective one. Check out Wheloon, the Vast, and Llorkh (currently under development) for ways I've handled the 4th-edition time-jump. If you don't like a bit of information or an era, just ignore that part.

So come back and have another look at the Forgotten Realms Wiki. It covers the whole Realms and all campaign settings, in all editions, equally and fairly. It's one of the most high-quality and high-rated wikis around. If there's a problem with an article, don't complain about it on Candlekeep, but bring it up on the Talk page so it can be fixed. It only needs more people to come and work on it. The thing about wikis is people generally only work on what interests them, because it's a hobby, not a paid job. I realised that when I got involved: if there's something I want to see on the wiki, if I want to use it to provide background information for my campaigns and characters, I had to add it myself. Then it will be useful for everyone.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki and Candlekeep Wiki
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2042 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  15:37:00  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
At the risk of sounding stupid, if the CKWiki is already up and running, could someone please provide a link?

Sweet water and light laughter
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
241 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  15:46:19  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://candlekeep.wikia.com/wiki/Candlekeep_Wiki

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki and Candlekeep Wiki
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2042 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  17:08:23  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you. I will check it out more thoroughly when I return home.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Jeff Strix
Seeker

Germany
21 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  21:05:14  Show Profile Send Jeff Strix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Voted with "Yes". I don't thought that candlekeep-wiki already exists, thanks for link!
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
722 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  21:22:21  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its just a bunch of independent project for the moment. I hope new projects will begin to appear now. And that we can connect them all (though, for that, we will have to create the guidelines for the candlekanon first).

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14197 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  04:05:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't realize people were already contributing.

I guess my first 'piece' will be the maps, and something explaining the changes (although it will have to be pretty vague, if folks are going to be tackling every area independently).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  04:18:12  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I didn't realize people were already contributing.

I guess my first 'piece' will be the maps, and something explaining the changes (although it will have to be pretty vague, if folks are going to be tackling every area independently).


I would not say people are already contributing. We are just organizing our stuff in our individual namespace areas so that it can be ready to be shared with the entire community once it is time.
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe

USA
138 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  06:34:16  Show Profile  Visit Adhriva's Homepage  Send Adhriva an AOL message  Send Adhriva a Yahoo! Message Send Adhriva a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes - Nothing has been finalized or accepted as of yet. Everything on there is, at best, an organized draft of things we as individuals already know we would like to propose. No matter how elaborate it may seem, it's all an author draft that has not yet been accepted. They are our personal way of organizing, particularly larger scale projects from the looks of it, so the community to vote on at a later date. And if one person is writing about something in their own username space, that in no way means no one else can touch it or make a proposal about it. So something like the Eclipsed Empire project, which very heavily focuses on Cormanthor, does not mean I have some how claimed all Cormanthorian lore; that is not the case. Its me organizing what I wanted to propose because I have a great deal of information to put forward to the community one day and because of it's all heavily interconnected due to the narrative format it was created for. In no way are any of those pages a claim on the land and lore, nor is it in any way set in stone; It is at best notes the community can read if they happen to feel like it or it comes up for vote.

Even after articles get accepted, these user pages are exceptionally useful as a way of sharing behind the scenes information, especially in terms of where we were going with the ideas. In my example, there is plenty of information for 1550s Cormanthyr because that's when BALLAD OF THE DAWN took place - well after any present time we'll likely pick for the fanon. For articles that would touch on that post-present time frame, I can simply link at the bottom to the Username/ articles I'm creating now if people are interested. If they're not interested, they won't see that information on any page that got accepted and it never bothers them. As we move forward, people can who build on those articles can build towards, or away from, what ideas I had depending on how the community votes. Again, not set in stone, but accessible to the community. There could be multiple such pages for any article that people could draw on. Not all of them dealing with things like the future, some of them could simply be alternative ideas. In my case, concept art that didn't get selected.


They're not claims to areas or lore, they're not final, they're simply notes and unbound ideas. Don't let the fact there are already notes up on the wiki stymie the making of more notes!

Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
Artstation Portfolio

Edited by - Adhriva on 30 Jul 2017 09:57:15
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2042 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2017 :  21:10:15  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't even have anything yet XD

Sweet water and light laughter
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Nilus Reynard
Learned Scribe

Canada
107 Posts

Posted - 17 Aug 2017 :  03:42:13  Show Profile Send Nilus Reynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really am undecided on it, haven't given it alot of thought actually.

Nilus Reynard
Doom Master of Beshaba, Hand of Despair.
P21 Hm CN
(2nd Edition AD&D)
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