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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 14:22:27
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Poll Question:
Eleven days ago I created a previous thread discussing how the FR Community should handle the canon. Today, the poll is tied with 12 people supporting and 12 people opposing the proposal. The issue is deadlocked, and there is no consensus reached.
Our discussions on how to move forward grew heated. However, it ultimately bore fruit. A possible alternative consensus began to emerge. It is this new consensus proposal that we are voting on now.
THE NEW CONSENSUS PROPOSAL:
1. The Candlekanon will accept all existing canon.
2. If future WotC publications overwrite the Candlekanon, then the community will discuss ways to either integrate or ignore the changes. As a result, future WotC canon will be treated as a Candlekanon submission by any other user. It will not automatically be canonized by the Candlekanon, despite being official lore.
3. Individuals will be allowed to submit lore for any place on the timeline for the Candlekanon.
4. While all lore regardless of where it appears on the timeline will be accepted, as the Candlekanon opens up certain types of 'necessary gap filling' lore will receive prioritization. This specifically refers to the post-5th Edition Sundered Realms, so that we can have a current agreed upon state of affairs, followed by lore that fills in and helps explain the 100 year time gap between 3rd and 4th Edition.
5. The current timeline will be moved forward somewhere between five to twenty years. The exact length of the jump is still under consideration. However, the reason for the jump is to get us a bit further past the Sundering event of 5th Edition and give people who are working in the current published canon Realms an opportunity to wrap up or move onto the Candlekanon timeline which may diverge significantly from the WotC canon based upon user submissions.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 14:50:11
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I don't think prioritizing lore is going to really be needed; I think most people wanting to write material that fills the gaps will pick the Lost Century.
But that's just a quibble, and not an objection.
I can support this proposal as it stands. (Except I accidentally clicked the wrong button and now I can't vote  ) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Jul 2017 14:52:06 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 15:06:15
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| I support this consensus. Though I fell like Wooly, people will either fill in the gaps of the "lost century" or in the post-1491s Realms (or even in both). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 15:20:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think prioritizing lore is going to really be needed; I think most people wanting to write material that fills the gaps will pick the Lost Century.
Just to clarify what I meant by prioritization, I was not talking about prioritization in terms of submissions. All submissions need to go through an editorial process, where people make sure what is being proposed is consistent with the existing canon/Candlekanon, as well as getting it prepared to be voted on and brought into the Candlekanon. This is what I meant by prioritization--it's a discussion of things moving through the process.
Also, it is less to do with the century time gap, though this is a legitimate and serious problem, and more to do with the current state of the post-Sundered Realms. We still do not know everything the Sundering did to the Realms or its current state. All we really know, based on the post-5th Edition Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide is that the Realms is in a vaguely pre-Time of Troubles 1st Edition state. (The map has even been reformatted to look like the 1E/2E Realms.)
There needs to be an agreed upon Candlekanon current state of the Realms, something people in the pre-5th Edition Realms are writing toward, and something submissions for post 5th Edition Realms are using as their platform to advance the canon.
That is what I meant by prioritization--it's about trying to swiftly move things through the editorial and voting process so that we can swiftly establish what the current Realms looks like since we do not really have a Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide to use as our basis for shared canon. This is why prioritization is being given to these submissions, so that we can all have a shared and up-to-date version of canon again.
Submissions wise, people should be allowed to submit anything they want, regardless of timeline. It just may not move as swiftly through the editorial and voting process. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 16:30:21
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To offer further clarification to my previous post...
One of the significant challenges we have as a community is explaining why things are in the Realms the way that they are--the 100 year time jump in 4th Edition was done to give the setting a 'soft reboot.' The events of that time were left unexplained for similar reasons. The 5th Edition Sundering is yet another reboot on top of the 4th Edition reboot. It is also left similarly unexplained.
All of this has created significant, nearly schizophrenic, confusion in the canon. Things changed but people do not know how or why, and it leads to posts like this one from Mankyle. In that post, he talks about the changes based on editions to the Host Tower and the Arcane Brotherhood. It is a small example of a larger problem, and it is the reason that we need a shared up-to-date canon again. Stuff like this needs to be explained so that we can begin moving the setting forward.
======
I will just use myself as an example.
One of the things that I am interested in dealing with is the consequences of having planted the Tree of Souls in Myth Drannor. Shortly after the planting of the Tree, the Spellplague happened, and Evermeet was swept into the Feywild. During the events of the Sundering, Myth Drannor has been laid to ruin once again, and the Elves have fled the city. Evermeet has also returned to the Realms.
I cannot write about the consequences of having planted the Tree of Souls until I know the current state of Evermeet, the Elves of Cormanthor, and the Tree of Souls itself. Anything I would write about the consequences of having planted the Tree would be making assumptions about those other things that may or may not be true.
This is the reason that there needs to be an up-to-date agreed upon version of the Realms, and the reason that it would be prioritized. If it is not, then it becomes impossible to write about the current or future state of the Realms without unintentionally 'locking in' certain assumptions about the setting that may or may not be agreed upon.
This is one of the things that would also need to be checked in an editorial process, making 'assumptions' about the setting that are not yet agreed upon. This is just as important as making sure things square with the canon/Candlekanon. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 17:21:35
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If it helps:
Evermeet is back, though still partly resides in both the Feywild in Arvandor. Ships travel to and from Sword Coast ports (SCAG).
The Srinshee organized the magical protection of the Tree of Souls during the Herald. The elves of Cormanthor retreated to Semberholme, and have since built stronger bonds with elves in Tangletrees and Evereska. Fflar and Ilsevele are mostly focusing on rebuilding their strength. They've also planted slips of the Tree of Souls in these places so it can be magically transported if needed (Ed June 2014 and December 2015, here at the Keep).
LotCS, contrary to what Manklye asserted, actually doesn't put the Arcane Brotherhood as using the Hosttower as a main base in 1485. It describes it as a ruin from which a sole influential member of the Brotherhood operates, before he is presumably sent packing by Jarlaxle's cronies soon after the events of that adventure. The Arcane Brotherhood does exist at that time, but they're spread across the land and not truly Luskan based. Cattie-Brie and the gang finish up their work on the Hosttower at the beginning of 1488, and then most of the mages leave. The lore fits with the Arcane Brotherhood taking over the tower soon after, in time for Tyranny of Dragons (which occurs after the Sundering ends occurring to the adventure, and was announced in Adventurer's League as 1489).
Hope that helps with some concerns.  |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 17:26:42
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Yeah, the SCAG gives some info on the Evermeet status. I personally don't think replanting the Tree and the Spellplague are connected, but that's an "assumption" too lol.
Anyway, I support the consensus. As of right now, I don't have anything else to the discussion, but I want to see others what other say, and will chime in if something occurs to me :) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 17:29:53
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We should take the oppurtunity to achieve another talked about notion that never came to light: a discord server for Candlekeep. It would make hashing out and discussing elements of the fanon easier.
As for the Elves of Cormanthor....I can help you there. My pet project for the last 1.5 years has dealt with it. Much research went into it and there is plenty of artwork for it I made that would fit nicely into a wiki*. In addition to a fully coherent story forming the backbone, it was designed as a backdrop to adventures surrounding the region up to 1557DR. Find me on discord (VErzahlerin#7985) and we'll talk more how things can fit together. Somewhere in my notes and transcripts from talking to authors is the current status and whereabouts of the Tree of Souls, just need to dig through them. Off the top of my head though, I believe Ed (by way of THO) answered it here in the question thread.
*This past day I've been working on concept art for the Myth Drannor throne room under the Irithyls (and a variant under Ilsevele too) as a matter of fact. You can see the wip of the Irithyl piece here(Link). |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
Portfolio |
Edited by - Adhriva on 21 Jul 2017 17:33:14 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 17:46:02
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| Why not use this opportunity to make new stuff? I understand the desire to "fill" in the areas left unexplored but I'd be FAR more interested in writings about people and places currently happening in the Realms and maybe stuff that's interesting without trying to change the overall area. Like detailing a new political group or a new religious order or maybe a tale about a privateer on the Sea of Fallen Stars or (and my personal favorite) details about the exploits of the Purple Dragon Knights of Cormyr against the threats of Zhents, Giants, and evil humanoids of the Stormhorns. These can be really fun areas to explore that get into the nitty-gritty of Realms-live without changing the course of Faerūn's history. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 17:53:02
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While I agree with Diffan, for such stuff to work as intended we have to agree in an established canon. In that way, what we create will not interfere with the work of the people who want to fill in history periods or elaborate in canon stuff. Because, IIRC, the goal of Candlecanon is to create a new, better canon for the Realms that the one WotC is currently doing.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
All we really know, based on the post-5th Edition Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide is that the Realms is in a vaguely pre-Time of Troubles 1st Edition state.
While most of the Realms returned to the 1e geography, not all of it did it. In one of the "Dragon Talk" podcasts, Chris Perkins and Matt Sernett said that "there are parts of Abeir that were never transposed back to Abeir" in the Sundering. And we know, for instance, that Tymanther still exist in the Realms (the god Enlil stopped the process of reverting back to Abeir); the SCAG even mentions the Ash Lake, that means Tymanther still has its 4e edition geography intact. We also know that Airspur is basically the same one from 4e (even the earthmotes never fell there), that means that the kingdom of Akanūl may still exist, even if people consider it part of Chessenta now.
So, the geography isn't quite as similar as it was in 1e. If I have to speculate, I guess just the Torilian parts returned to their 1e status, while the Abeiran lands that remained in Toril are basically the same as they were in 4e.
This gives us a lot of freedoms to use a lot of stuff from Abeir. I, for one, vote to maintain Laerakond/Returned Abeir in Toril... we just have to shift somehow its position to allow it to coexist with Maztica and Evermeet. But that land is really interesting and very detailed (But Laerakond was created by Ed, so no wonder). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Jul 2017 17:54:22 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 18:49:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
While I agree with Diffan, for such stuff to work as intended we have to agree in an established canon. In that way, what we create will not interfere with the work of the people who want to fill in history periods or elaborate in canon stuff. Because, IIRC, the goal of Candlecanon is to create a new, better canon for the Realms that the one WotC is currently doing.
What, exactly, defines "better"? My perspective of the Reamls is likely vastly different than otheres here at the 'Keep (remember, 4e fan here that loves most of the changes brought on by the Spellplague). So the bases we go off of, from my understanding, is current Canon applies and to fill-holes or write new stuff that coincides with what's already happened.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
All we really know, based on the post-5th Edition Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide is that the Realms is in a vaguely pre-Time of Troubles 1st Edition state.
While most of the Realms returned to the 1e geography, not all of it did it. In one of the "Dragon Talk" podcasts, Chris Perkins and Matt Sernett said that "there are parts of Abeir that were never transposed back to Abeir" in the Sundering. And we know, for instance, that Tymanther still exist in the Realms (the god Enlil stopped the process of reverting back to Abeir); the SCAG even mentions the Ash Lake, that means Tymanther still has its 4e edition geography intact. We also know that Airspur is basically the same one from 4e (even the earthmotes never fell there), that means that the kingdom of Akanūl may still exist, even if people consider it part of Chessenta now.
So, the geography isn't quite as similar as it was in 1e. If I have to speculate, I guess just the Torilian parts returned to their 1e status, while the Abeiran lands that remained in Toril are basically the same as they were in 4e.
Which brings me to a next point. When stuff is written, I think the assumption should be: unless we have definitive proof that something has changed, revert to the last previous mention of said area and go from that starting point.
Ex. We know that Hulburg (town on the Moonsea) is still run by Harmach, Natali Hulmaster in 1480 while Kara Hulmaster (her aunt) was made regent until her niece grew up. If the current year is 1491 that means that Natali is grown up now. So from that point, info on the years between 1480 and 1491 could use some information but I wouldn't attempt to change Natali's station as harmach of Hulburg. Or maybe write what's going on in Hulburg now that Natali is now of age or maybe have an interesting plot revolving around her coronation as harmach "Officially" as her aunt steps down. Stuff like that.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
This gives us a lot of freedoms to use a lot of stuff from Abeir. I, for one, vote to maintain Laerakond/Returned Abeir in Toril... we just have to shift somehow its position to allow it to coexist with Maztica and Evermeet. But that land is really interesting and very detailed (But Laerakond was created by Ed, so no wonder).
Exactly. I think using what is currently established and moving from that point on to fill in stuff (that also works with established lore) or work to explain and expand current established lore is the best fit. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 19:06:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva
We should take the oppurtunity to achieve another talked about notion that never came to light: a discord server for Candlekeep. It would make hashing out and discussing elements of the fanon easier.
As for the Elves of Cormanthor....I can help you there. My pet project for the last 1.5 years has dealt with it. Much research went into it and there is plenty of artwork for it I made that would fit nicely into a wiki*. In addition to a fully coherent story forming the backbone, it was designed as a backdrop to adventures surrounding the region up to 1557DR. Find me on discord (VErzahlerin#7985) and we'll talk more how things can fit together. Somewhere in my notes and transcripts from talking to authors is the current status and whereabouts of the Tree of Souls, just need to dig through them. Off the top of my head though, I believe Ed (by way of THO) answered it here in the question thread.
*This past day I've been working on concept art for the Myth Drannor throne room under the Irithyls (and a variant under Ilsevele too) as a matter of fact. You can see the wip of the Irithyl piece here(Link).
You know I will be happy to help you with anything elven  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 19:10:43
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| How would the editorial process work? Someone submits something, and do other members (those involved in CK) review it, or? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 19:40:19
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
You know I will be happy to help you with anything elven
Of course. Wouldn't think of tackling it without you  |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
Portfolio |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 19:49:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
What, exactly, defines "better"? My perspective of the Reamls is likely vastly different than otheres here at the 'Keep (remember, 4e fan here that loves most of the changes brought on by the Spellplague). So the bases we go off of, from my understanding, is current Canon applies and to fill-holes or write new stuff that coincides with what's already happened.
I know the feel. Is no secret here that I was introduced to the Realms in 4e. That's my favorite version of the Realms because its the one I DMed. My version of Neverwinter still have the Chasm with Cthulhu and their friends living there
And so, I understand why people disliked the changes brought by the Spellplague (because I disliked some of the changes done with the Sundering...)
As with better, I mean something that is fun for everyone. We know, people like their confort zones, but sometimes we have to get out of them and face reality: the Realms have changed, and WotC decided to left the Realms changed. We have to adapt.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
How would the editorial process work? Someone submits something, and do other members (those involved in CK) review it, or?
I have this question as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Jul 2017 19:52:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 20:40:10
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| I do not have the time to play editor that I once had. I've barely time to devote to my own pursuits. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 21:54:35
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| I'm fine with this proposal, and with editorial priority being given to gap-filling lore. The purpose of this wiki is to get everyone on the same page and create a new sense of community. Without a definite current state of the Realms, this might as well be called "Homebrew FR wiki" and be a place where people just upload their lore. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 22:05:51
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I voted to agree with the above proposal, but I do have one caveat: I don't think the new time-jump should be 20 years. That gives WotC too much opportunity to derail us. I recall Marvel comics doing their '2020' line, and now its coming back to bite them in the arse (although not really, since their own canon is even more fluid than ours, these days).
5 years, 10 years at the most, I am thinking. I still want to be able to use some of their 'balls in the air' (although, once again, I am not even sure how much this matters ATM, since 'high detail' doesn't seem to be something they are going for).
And as I said elsewhere, just because something is (official) CANON, does not mean it is 'set in stone'. Some things, perhaps, more than others, especially if something is covered in-detail in novels. But most of the lore we get should be treated in the "uncertain 3rd person" style of 1e/2e. In other words, the lore is "what most folks think is true", and we should be able to write CandleKanon that spins things differently (not changing things whole-cloth, just taking something in an unexpected direction, perhaps). However, we should also be writing such 'lore tweaking' pieces in that same 1e/2e style, so that our CandleKanon version might not be 'the whole truth' either (that gives DMs choices, which is how it should be). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 22:10:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
How would the editorial process work? Someone submits something, and do other members (those involved in CK) review it, or?
I have this question as well.
I think this is where the 'consensus' comes in. There needs to be some sort of 'managment team'. If this were a CKC, I would say give everyone involved a 'rough copy' so that each of us can review it, but since that isn't the format we are going with, then maybe we can form our own groups, for the most part? Little 'circles' we share articles with, to get some feedback?
Or maybe a dedicated sub-forum HERE, where we post our lore, and then when it gets the 'thumbs up', it moves on over to the Wiki. Of course, the not-CandleKanon articles do not have to undergo such a strenuous process.
Or just post the rough articles without the 'CK seal of approval", and then we all look it over, and see if it should get that seal, or not, or if it just needs some fine-tuning to make it in. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 22:25:00
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| Marvel had to destroy their whole multiverse and recreate it with minor changes in a DC way to keep up with their canon changes. So yeah, 20 years is too much. I'm of the mind to start like in 1499-1500 DR because new century. 1500 is better because there is a Shieldmeet. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 21 Jul 2017 22:25:55 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 22:30:13
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| Yes, that's what I proposed in the other thread. The Sundering provides already a clean slate anyway, no need to jump further. But I understand going for 1500 DR |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 22:57:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I voted to agree with the above proposal, but I do have one caveat: I don't think the new time-jump should be 20 years. That gives WotC too much opportunity to derail us. I recall Marvel comics doing their '2020' line, and now its coming back to bite them in the arse (although not really, since their own canon is even more fluid than ours, these days).
5 years, 10 years at the most, I am thinking. I still want to be able to use some of their 'balls in the air' (although, once again, I am not even sure how much this matters ATM, since 'high detail' doesn't seem to be something they are going for).
How far the timeline moves ahead will be based upon another vote. I know people have some disagreements, but the majority who have posted have advocated for a 5 to 10 year time jump. How far ahead we move will be determined by that vote.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
How would the editorial process work? Someone submits something, and do other members (those involved in CK) review it, or?
The exact details are something we still need to discuss. However, that is the gist of it. Someone submits something and those that are participating review it. There will be criteria on which to judge it. One of the main central criteria will be whether or not it conflicts with the canon/Candlekanon. People can also give feedback and adjustments can be made accordingly. The central goal of the editorial process is to get something prepared to enter into the Candlekanon.
For a similar process you can view the policies of the FRWiki. They have criteria that all of their articles must meet, for example, the articles need to be written in past tense. So, the editorial process will also examine the format of the submitted articles.
Once a submission has met all the criteria for entry, it will be opened up for voting.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Why not use this opportunity to make new stuff? I understand the desire to "fill" in the areas left unexplored but I'd be FAR more interested in writings about people and places currently happening in the Realms and maybe stuff that's interesting without trying to change the overall area. Like detailing a new political group or a new religious order or maybe a tale about a privateer on the Sea of Fallen Stars or (and my personal favorite) details about the exploits of the Purple Dragon Knights of Cormyr against the threats of Zhents, Giants, and evil humanoids of the Stormhorns. These can be really fun areas to explore that get into the nitty-gritty of Realms-live without changing the course of Faerūn's history.
That is the goal to write new stuff. However, we cannot write truly new stuff in the current era until we have an agreed upon base canon that everyone is using.
What I mean by "base canon" is if you open up something like the 3E FRCS or 4E FRCG, each area/region will have a write-up. We need a similar write-up for each area that is consistent with the canon of the current era.
Once we have a base canon, what gets changed, and how much it gets changed is up to the community. If people want to submit RSE's that happen in the future, that drastically change a region, then that is an acceptable submission. The community is the gatekeeper.
I would, however, imagine drastic changes to the setting are harder to get passed than the stuff you listed though. Everything you listed is the bulk of what I imagine most people will be submitting.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
What, exactly, defines "better"? My perspective of the Reamls is likely vastly different than otheres here at the 'Keep (remember, 4e fan here that loves most of the changes brought on by the Spellplague). So the bases we go off of, from my understanding, is current Canon applies and to fill-holes or write new stuff that coincides with what's already happened.
The community, as a whole, gets to define what is considered an acceptable addition to the Candlekanon. Your understanding is also correct, ALL of the existing canon in the published Realms--in this consensus--is valid. Everything that has come out to this point is officially part of the Candlekanon, and cannot be overwritten or contradicted. We may have to work out a way to handle situations where the lore itself is self-contradictory. However, that is more of an issue for past editions, since so little is written about the current era there is very little for it to conflict with--things that do not make sense can be expanded upon and explained. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 23:16:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
How would the editorial process work? Someone submits something, and do other members (those involved in CK) review it, or?
I have this question as well.
I think this is where the 'consensus' comes in. There needs to be some sort of 'managment team'. If this were a CKC, I would say give everyone involved a 'rough copy' so that each of us can review it, but since that isn't the format we are going with, then maybe we can form our own groups, for the most part? Little 'circles' we share articles with, to get some feedback?
Or maybe a dedicated sub-forum HERE, where we post our lore, and then when it gets the 'thumbs up', it moves on over to the Wiki. Of course, the not-CandleKanon articles do not have to undergo such a strenuous process.
Or just post the rough articles without the 'CK seal of approval", and then we all look it over, and see if it should get that seal, or not, or if it just needs some fine-tuning to make it in.
I imagine it would work similar to how BadCatMan outlined:
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
To demonstrate how I suppose the CKW could work, I've mocked up an article for it. So, the process. Here's the canonical article on the Forgotten Realms Wiki:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Bladewright
Here's the homebrewed background for a short-lived PC of mine I posted on Candlekeep last year:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21136
And here's the very first article on the Candlekeep Wiki: :D
http://candlekeep.wikia.com/wiki/User:BadCatMan/Order_of_the_Bladewright
(Templates were a bit too tedious to hack up at this stage.)
So, I took the layout and text of the canonical article, cut-up my homebrewed stuff, and interspersed it together with appropriate revisions and linking text. In the end, I removed my own PC Sambrylla Smith, and left an unnamed and non-gendered young member of the Order of the Bladewright in her place. That way, any player can choose to add their own PC in that slot, or a GM could spin an NPC out of it. It's an open plothook and character suggestion that makes this fanon useful for gaming and storytelling.
Each line is referenced to either an existing canon work or to myself, so a reader can check which is which. With good referencing, multiple fan writers can add their own lore. Say George Krashos has something about Impiltur that touches on the Order of the Bladewright. New lore on the Order's origins? Add it! Different events in the coronation? Remove it and change it.
I've put this in the User namespace, so at this stage it's just a personal project. I wouldn't expect anyone to fiddle with it. But say the fan community especially likes it. They could set some criteria: agrees with canon and accepted fanon, fits the spirit of the Realms, and provides plothooks. People can vote on it in the Forum or on the Talk page, make suggestions or request revisions, and decided whether to accept it or not. The process could be similar to how the FRW votes on its Featured Articles. If the page is rejected, it waits for improvement or languishes in obscurity. If accepted, it could be renamed to the Main namespace (with no "User:BadCatMan\") and becomes a part of the Candlekanon. If for some reason it's no longer valid (say Wizards declares the Order of the Bladewright were illithids all along), it can be retracted.
For those who still love their sourcebooks, the best approved articles might be collated into a Candlekeep Compendium each year.
In any case, using a wiki would preserve a lot of the write-ups that get lost in the Candlekeep Forum archives, making fanon lore findable and easily linkable. It would also bring in the homebrew work of other fans, who'd otherwise have to use a separate website or keep it at home, so they can easily share write-ups with their players.
So, take BadCatMan's article from the Wiki: http://candlekeep.wikia.com/wiki/User:BadCatMan/Order_of_the_Bladewright
This is in his User namespace. He would post a link to that article here on the forums, and we would discuss it. There would be a list of criteria that a submission to the Candlekanon needs to fulfill. The exact criteria is something we have to discuss. Anyway, during this editorial phase BadCatMan would make the necessary alterations to his article to meet all the criteria for entry. He may also incorporate some ideas and suggestions from posters here in hopes of building a broader consensus.
Then, once all the criteria are met, it will then be put up for a vote. How long a vote remains open is still something we need to discuss, somewhere around a couple of weeks seems fair.
Anyway, people vote on it, and if the majority support it, then it moves out of his namespace and into the Candlekanon. It then becomes part of our canon, and future submissions that touch on it need to be checked against it. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 23:24:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yes, that's what I proposed in the other thread. The Sundering provides already a clean slate anyway, no need to jump further. But I understand going for 1500 DR
I agree that the Sundering loosely provides for a clean slate, but the reason for the time jump--even a minor one--is for the reasons (I believe it was Wooly) outlined in the other thread. It is so that people running existing games can wrap them up, or find ways to nudge their home Realms onto the Candlekanon.
If I am not mistaken the official timeline is around 1489ish DR. It might be 1490 DR by now, though. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2017 : 23:42:41
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| 1491, according to Death Masks. But yes, that's why I said that I understand going for 1500 DR. I, however, think that anything more than that is skipping too much time. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2017 : 00:15:10
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1500 DR sounds good to me - it appeals to my OCD.
Some of what is being said here - some of the lore examples - made me want to start commenting on that, and I had to bite my tongue, becuase thats NOT what this thread is for, and the where and how we actually do that IS what this thread is for (the discussions and editorial feedback).
But I think we can come up with something really cool for the Tree(s) of Life, Cormanthor, and the Elves. All we need to do is put some polish on all of that and it can come together nicely (and I love that WIP of your art, Adhriva). AND Evermeet (it can be connected, with a little nudging).
As for the Sundering providing a 'tabla rasa', I'm thinking moreso then we've come to realize. Since we have brought-up Marvel (and DC) continuities, we've actually undergone a bit of the same thing; a 'merger' of the different worlds, and yet, we can keep them separate (like how they did with their multiverses, but we don't even need to go that far - we already had a framework {over-cosmology} for that with planescape... and Spelljammer, and Ravenloft). That means, while each world is still 'its own thing', we CAN borrow bits of lore (or critters, phenomena, and even organizations and maybe NPCs) from elsewhere. This is nothing new - we had a little of that already, especially back in the 2e days, but we can run a bit more with it now, since it seems thats the way wotC wants to go as well.
Of course, if I had MY way, I'd stick The Flanaess (GH) over where Anchoromé was.
I doubt I could get the rest of you to agree to THAT.
Oh, and I'd be willing to stick Laerakond (Returned Abeir) anywhere you guys want on a map. I've already done a couple of mock-ups. I really like it down between chult, Lantan, and Nimbral, like what I did HERE, but I'd separate Lantan from it this time, moving it slightly west. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jul 2017 00:19:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2017 : 22:08:19
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Okay, played with it some more.
I know this isn't exactly the best thread for this, buuuuuuut... if we do decide to include Returned Abeir (Laerakond) in the CandleKanon, I think this placement would be optimal, for various reasons (read the notes below the map).
Returned Abeir near Chult, Lantan, & Nimbral.
The new eastern coast of Abeir is actual Nerath. I thought that would be a neat little thing to use (NOT Nerath itself - i just liked it's coast). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jul 2017 22:08:48 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2017 : 23:15:31
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| Good map, as always. And yeah, Laerakond deserves love. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 05:00:04
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Some days, one forgets just how much information can be put into a graphic novel....Wikis are fun things, who knew? Well I suppose our friends over at the FR wiki did but Totally beside the point.
To get back to the purpose of the thread, how many people in the community will we require to sign off on something before an article becomes "valid"? And to take that thought a bit further, how will we mark it? A thread here on Candlekeep, something on the page itself, or a different way entirely?
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Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2017 : 05:19:33
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I actually ended up on the FR Wiki a couple of times today.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Good map, as always. And yeah, Laerakond deserves love.
Thanks.
Not so much a 'map' right now, as it is a quick mock-up to show what is possible (I just took parts of two different maps I have going on and spliced layers together).
I was going to add some detail, but I didn't want to get side-tracked yet again. Except for Returned Abeir itself, the rest of that is just a piece of the continent map I've been working on (my thoughts at this point are to use that as my 'master map', so all my FR maps moving forward will be compatible with each other - something I never bothered to do back when I was using the '3e style' of art).
If we decide to include Laerakond in the CandlKanon, then I can use that as a base for the detailed version. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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(Second Attempt) How should the canon be handled?
