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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jul 2017 : 17:33:50
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Right.
What I was saying as well, but I tend to over-complicate things sometimes.
'Feywild Magic' is more Raw. Think of it like crude oil. Its functional, and it can be turned into all sorts of useful stuff. WEAVE magic is already refined, so when you use it 'to light a fire' (which is what the Elves constantly do, despite claims to the contrary) its much more effective; more 'efficient', and thus, when one is not used to it (or one's 'magical traditions' are thousands of years out-of-date), it tends to spiral out of control (like when Uncle Bob decides your dad isn't using enough lighter fluid on the barbecue grill, and manages to singe-off his own eyebrows... and burning everything available).
However, its also less malleable, because its already refined. It has structure. Thats why, when elves dip into it in ways they shouldn't ('hack the source code'), they get unpredictable results as well. You can tweak things in the past in Faerie because time itself (there) isn't as... substantial (for lack of a better word)... as it is in The Prime Material. Its like the difference between trying to take a scoop out of a bowl of jello, and trying to pull a few bricks out of the foundation of a building. The jello will just except what was done and go on being jello, but in the case of the foundation, the whole building might collapse (hence, 'Sunderings' - echoes of a reality-altering event). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jul 2017 17:35:02 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2017 : 17:37:03
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I watched the video, and similarly to the Erik Scott De Bie piece, it only describes the elven seer Elliandreth of Orishaar present at the elven sundering seeing the other two events, and that Elliandreth feels those events are similar to what is happening where he is. Neither piece implies causation.
In fact, my takeaway from the language of both pieces is that the the Tearfall and Sundering of the 1480s were NOT related to the elven Sundering at all - Elliandreth of Orishaar merely witnessed them due to the powerful ripples in time caused by the elven Sundering. Seeing these events and feeling that they were similar to his own, he called them Sunderings.
Also, saying that the Elven Sundering caused the other two Sunderings takes all the agency out of the rest of the stories. The batrachi's and Asgoroth's roles in the Tearfall are merely caused by the elves. The Tablets of Fate chaos of the Era of Upheaval, starting in the Avatar Crisis and resulting in the 1480s Sundering is merely caused by the elves. This goes against what they're saying in the video, most of which is about Ao and the Tablets of Fate, which are in no way related to the elven sundering.
My 2p.
I remember watching this video when the discussions of the Sundering began, but I had forgotten about the Tearfall. Well, not forgotten about it, but didn't consider it. And admittedly, I still don't. Like you, I don't think they are connected. The Tearfall had already happened by the time Evermeet was created. Unless...that event also caused a ripple that went forward and backward in time, therefore affecting the Elven Sundering (and this is why Elliandrenth saw it), kind of like what Aldrick suggested.
If the Elven Sundering had altered history, that would mean the Tearfall hadn't happened originally, and I don't think that's the case, as the Tearfall influenced events that happened afterwards, but before the Elven Sundering. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2017 : 17:57:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was just checking some of the Planescape referecnes, and I am thinking that before the Fey entered the feywild (and created Faerie), it was probably a ginat-Realm, and maybe even the original Jotunheim.
If we go by 4e creation myths, both the Feywild and the Shadowfell were populated at first by giants (titans in 4e), because, when those realms were created, as "echoes" of the material plane, they copied the first inhabitants of the material: the servants of the primordials (the titans and giants).
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Okay, I found it. I found the discussion of the Sundering, where it is described in detail.
It is this video. The entire first 12 minutes is devoted to telling us what the Sundering is and why it is happening.
Ironic they (indirectly) created the race that was their most fearsome enemies in the ancient age: the dragons.
They also destroyed the whole world... at last, I understand why some people say elves are the real evil ones of the Realms.
I wouldn't call them evil. Arrogant, yes, but not evil. It's not like they performed the ritual with the intent of destroying so much. Like I said, the elven high magic probably worked differently in Faerie than it did in Faerun, but they didn't realize that until it was too late. Then again, I'm aware most people here don't like the elves lol.
They also didn't have a focus (like what James Wyatt said in the video. Ao had a "focus" (the Tablets), so the spell didn't get out of control like it did with the elves (he's also an overgod, lol). In Faerie, they may not have needed a focus, so they didn't think to have one in Faerun.
quote:
I wouldn't say the elves created the Original Sundering (the Tearfall) or the Second Sundering. However, by creating their Sundering they did changed the timeline, allowing those Sunderings to happen in the first place.
Maybe their creation of Evermeet weakened planar boundaries in the past, allowing the batrachi to summon primordials bound by the gods in the Dawn War, indirectly causing the liberation of Asgoroth and the subsequent Tearfall.
Maybe it also caused some malfunction in the future, allowing Bane and Myrkul to get the Tablets of Fate (that I find weird those gods just found the Tablets by luck), starting the whole Age of Upheaval that ended in the Second Sundering.
Hence, the past and future Sunderings can be indirect consecuences of the First (elven) one.
Interesting theory, but as I said earlier, I don't think the Tearfall and the Elven Sundering are related, because that would mean the Tearfall didn't happen until the Elven Sundering, and since the Tearfall had an influence on other events, even before the Elven Sundering, equating the Elven Sundering to the Teafall would negate those events.
Unless...you apply the wild theory that the past is still happening as the present is going on.  Now my brain is sundered lol XD |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2017 : 18:36:29
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I agree these are all possible interpretations. However, I also think it's possible that the ripples through time merely allowed Elliandreth to see things in the past and future. For example, if time was a flat sheet, and it rippled, some of the peaks of those ripples might touch - allowing someone at a different time point to see that event. As a counterpoint, it might also allow the events of different times to impact each other. So I think either is possible - the lore is by no means explicit on the point as far as I can tell. It doesn't seem that Elliandreth thinks that the elven Sundering caused the other Sunderings - but his is just one viewpoint, and I may well be interpreting that viewpoint incorrectly.
That said, I still think the best interpretation is that the elven sundering did send ripples through time, and they did affect things - such as things related to Evermeet. However, my guess is that the other two Sundering events were not affected, but merely witnessed by Elliandreth.
The problem here is that this explanation does not free us from all the unfortunate implications, lol. 
Okay, so let's say the Elven Sundering had no impact on time itself, and the ripples just allowed Elliandreth to see the future and the past. Let's just set aside the issues of altering time for a moment, and assume that is the case. The good news here is that nothing that happened is the Elves fault except their Sundering. Okay... but there is still another problem.
The fact that Elliandreth sees into the future and is able to predict the 5th Edition Sundering means that Ao was fated to do it. This strips Ao of all agency and by extension everyone else in the world. If Ao is fated to do the 5th Edition Sundering, then it means the Tablets of Fate must be destroyed. This means the Time of Troubles is fated to happen. If the Time of Troubles is fated to happen, then it means that events must play out in such a way that the deities do the things they do resulting in their punishment and the Tablets destruction in the end. This also means Bane and Myrkul are fated to steal the Tablets in the first place. It also means that Cyric is fated to kill Mystra, the Spellplague is fated to happen, and... well... basically every event leading up to the 5th Edition Sundering is fated to happen.
If one of these major events does not happen then the Sundering that was witnessed by Elliandreth cannot take place. No Time of Troubles? No destruction of the Tablet of Fate by Ao. No misbehaving of the deities? No post-ToT punishment. No misbehaving deities post-ToT? No recreating the Tablets.
So, really, we are not free from all the unfortunate implications. We are just free from the ability to blame the Elves, lol. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2017 : 18:48:45
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| Perhaps Elliandreth saw multiple futures (and if I remember correctly from the video, he wasn't part of the ritual itself, anyway, which is why he survived), or he saw the one that was most likely to take place if certain prior events unfolded. Maybe the "ripples" made certain outcomes more likely to occur. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 16 Jul 2017 18:53:34 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2017 : 19:35:26
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Interesting theory, but as I said earlier, I don't think the Tearfall and the Elven Sundering are related, because that would mean the Tearfall didn't happen until the Elven Sundering, and since the Tearfall had an influence on other events, even before the Elven Sundering, equating the Elven Sundering to the Teafall would negate those events.
Unless...you apply the wild theory that the past is still happening as the present is going on. Now my brain is sundered lol XD
If the Elves altered time in such a way as to create the Tearfall, here is what I think happened. There are basically two world timelines. The original timeline for the Realms, and the altered timeline created by the Elven Sundering. The High Mages began their Sundering in the original timeline, the past (and consequently) the future changed. That includes the reasons for the Sundering in the first place. The reason for the Sundering in this timeline is just a way for the Temporal Paradox of the ritual being conducted by the High Mages to be explained. In other words, something had to happen in the altered timeline that would have also led to the High Mages performing the Sundering, so that they could alter the past, which then creates a stable state timeline by eliminating all the paradoxes.
The problem I foresee, aside from the unfortunate implications--which is the real brain melting problem--is what happens to people who traveled from other worlds and planes to Toril in the past prior to the Sundering? Their travel still happened in the timeline of those worlds, yet they may have never arrived, or even arrived at a completely different date than they did originally in the altered timeline. I mean, one way to fix all the paradoxes is to have the High Magic Spell literally impact the entire multi-verse, but that seems extreme.
I mean, there could literally be people out there who visited the Realms in the original timeline and then left before the Sundering, and thus remember a radically different Realms. LOL. Only they would know what the Elven Sundering ended up altering. "Wow. This place has changed." "Yeah, the Elves have gone and Sundered everything! My house is now under a volcano!" "Well, hey, look at least they managed to get rid of all of those killer robots." "What killer robots? This place never had any robots!" "...." 
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2017 : 19:48:56
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Interesting theory, but as I said earlier, I don't think the Tearfall and the Elven Sundering are related, because that would mean the Tearfall didn't happen until the Elven Sundering, and since the Tearfall had an influence on other events, even before the Elven Sundering, equating the Elven Sundering to the Teafall would negate those events.
Unless...you apply the wild theory that the past is still happening as the present is going on. Now my brain is sundered lol XD
"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to affect, but actually, from a non-linier, non subjective point of view it is more like a big ball of wibbily wobbly timey wimey...stuff"
The Doctor
As Markustay said, the elves screwed up the timeline, because their magic was made to work in a place where time has little significance. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2017 : 20:16:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
If the Elves altered time in such a way as to create the Tearfall, here is what I think happened. There are basically two world timelines. The original timeline for the Realms, and the altered timeline created by the Elven Sundering. The High Mages began their Sundering in the original timeline, the past (and consequently) the future changed. That includes the reasons for the Sundering in the first place. The reason for the Sundering in this timeline is just a way for the Temporal Paradox of the ritual being conducted by the High Mages to be explained. In other words, something had to happen in the altered timeline that would have also led to the High Mages performing the Sundering, so that they could alter the past, which then creates a stable state timeline by eliminating all the paradoxes.
The problem I foresee, aside from the unfortunate implications--which is the real brain melting problem--is what happens to people who traveled from other worlds and planes to Toril in the past prior to the Sundering? Their travel still happened in the timeline of those worlds, yet they may have never arrived, or even arrived at a completely different date than they did originally in the altered timeline. I mean, one way to fix all the paradoxes is to have the High Magic Spell literally impact the entire multi-verse, but that seems extreme.
I mean, there could literally be people out there who visited the Realms in the original timeline and then left before the Sundering, and thus remember a radically different Realms. LOL. Only they would know what the Elven Sundering ended up altering. "Wow. This place has changed." "Yeah, the Elves have gone and Sundered everything! My house is now under a volcano!" "Well, hey, look at least they managed to get rid of all of those killer robots." "What killer robots? This place never had any robots!" "...."
Have you played Legacy of Kain games? They present a very similar scenario. In those games, the time continuum was extremely rigid and resilient, and did not normally allow for the introduction of paradoxes or changes in the timeline. When such such changes did occurred, the time line re-shufled itself, allowing just minor changes in the timeline; most major events remained constant in the game's story between each timeline.
Or, the Elven Sundering may have been what is known as a causal loop or closed time loop: a situation when a time traveler is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" or "predates" them to travel back in time. Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened must happen. A time traveler attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling their role in creating history as we know it, not changing it. Or that the time-traveler's personal knowledge of history already includes their future travels to their own experience of the past. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2017 : 21:46:33
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Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves tells us what the Elven Sundering rituals do. They basically temporarily tear the Weave asunder, and the one Elven Sundering that we are talking about allowed the ensuing cataclysms to create the isolated land where Evermeet would be located in the future. While it is possible that the anomalies created by the tearing of the Weave also created the time anomalies that everyone is talking about, since I personally don't think that it is a good thing for the setting to be stuck in this time-loop where every major thing is fated until Ao recently broke it all, I'd assume something different.
The elven Sundering caused a tear in the time continuum, but it was localized on the spell itself. It allowed the effects of the Sundering (in short the destabilization of the Weave) to persist even after the end of the spell and its aftermath. In short, it's as if the spell that was cast wasn't instantaneous, but kept periodically sending those "ripples" in the future and past, like a signal beacon. Each ripple only carried a dampened version of the spell's effect, but as they kept passing by, the Weave became more and more destabilized, a destabilization that eventually extended also to a larger scale (like the barrier that was erected by Ao to sunder Abeir from Toril). I also guess that such destabilization would be twice as fast, since the ripples would be affecting the Weave both in the past and in the present.
The only way to undo such destabilization was to undo the spell in the past. However, the easiest and safest way to dispel the Sundering was to cut off its fuel: i.e. to reboot the Weave. When the effects of the Sundering grew powerful enough to be no longer acceptable, Ao ordered Mystra to do exactly that, and--deciding that a reset was in order--he broke the Tablets of Fate (since the Sundering was warping the laws of Realmspace that they contained anyway). We in fact know from Ed's books that Mystra had foreseen the Spellplague, that she was prepared for it, and that she also intended for the Weave, which had been damaged by the casting of past spells, to be rebooted. Maybe things didn't go as planned in the Spellplague, but she had prepared contingencies to allow her survival and that of her allies (we know she did for Vhaeraun and Eilistraee for example), and caught the opportunity to unravel and then rebuild the Weave when she recovered enough strength to get on her feet again.
The reason why Ao didn't rewrite the Tablets immediately after the Weave was rebooted, and why he didn't immediately heal Mystra and the Weave, is that maybe the Sundering--as a living thing, as suggested by Adhriva--wanted to keep existing, and was able to go on for some time on its own before "starving". Ao waited until the ripples came to an end to rewrite the Tablets and complete its reset.
It's a much simpler explanation (probably cheaper) than the time paradox one, but I honestly feel that it works better for a setting that is supposed to provide the base for other stories to be built, not to tell people that their stories are irrelevant because everything is fated since a bunch of pointy eared a******s decided to unleash a cataclysm on the Realms, so that they could have their pretty little island. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 17 Jul 2017 00:41:45 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 00:16:36
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^ That's actually a pretty plausible theory.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 02:57:29
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| If one wanted to work in a linkage between the elven sundering and the Abeir-Toril Sundering, the fact that the Elven Sundering was all about Evermeet and the fact that the spellplague left some odd non-magical version of Evermeet in the world would definitely be the path to start. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 03:17:18
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If one wanted to work in a linkage between the elven sundering and the Abeir-Toril Sundering, the fact that the Elven Sundering was all about Evermeet and the fact that the spellplague left some odd non-magical version of Evermeet in the world would definitely be the path to start.
The First Sundering did two things. Through the tearing of the Weave, it unleashed magical cataclysms that separated a massive tract of lands from the main continent. Then, it summoned a part of Arvandor on top of it to make it fey (although many would say that it summoned the feywild). The magic that tied that fey layer to the island itself was sustained by the Weave, so when the Weave nearly collapsed it went back to whence it came. However, since the Weave didn't fully collapse, maybe a thread remained to link the two, which allowed its inhabitants to return it to Toril with the Sundering. Idk why they would do so: maybe they decided it because the Torilian elves needed their safe haven again with the 2nd fall of Myth Drannor? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 17 Jul 2017 03:17:43 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 03:59:08
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Okay, so I found these interesting tidbits while reading up on what the SCAG says about Evermeet. It's one of those instances where it was written as from an individual person's POV, as they do sometimes in the SCAG, but here it is:
"These High Mages gathered together to perform a mighty work of magic that would bring Toril into contact with Arvandor--that's right, the mad fools actually wanted to bring into our world some of the lands which their gods dwelt!
Tales differ on whether Corellon allowed this or was powerless to prevent it, but it happened, and calamity gripped Toril as a result. This was the first Sundering, and elves have always said it echoed through time. Recent calamities would seem to prove them right.
When things settled down, the elves realized their folly. For thousands of years, no elf dared set foot on Evermeet. But eventually, Corellon must have forgiven his wayward children, for the oldest elves began to feel the call to the west."
It goes on to give some other info about Evermeet that is interesting but not relevant to this discussion. Then, it says this:
Then the Spellplague struck, and some of that old elven High Magic must have unraveled. Evermeet became unmoored from the world and found itself instead in a sea of the Feywild, that strange realm of faerie that touches the world in mystical places. For a centuru, it seemed Evermeet was lost to the world. Venerable elves tried to hold on, hoping this echo of the first Sundering might echo Evermeet's connection to the world once the period of calamity ended.
Their patience (who but an elf could have such patience?) was at last rewarded, which shipsc from Evermeet docked once more in Sword Coast ports.". (both entries are page 72 in the SCAG).
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 17 Jul 2017 04:06:12 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 04:14:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves tells us what the Elven Sundering rituals do. They basically temporarily tear the Weave asunder, and the one Elven Sundering that we are talking about allowed the ensuing cataclysms to create the isolated land where Evermeet would be located in the future. While it is possible that the anomalies created by the tearing of the Weave also created the time anomalies that everyone is talking about, since I personally don't think that it is a good thing for the setting to be stuck in this time-loop where every major thing is fated until Ao recently broke it all, I'd assume something different.
...
It's a much simpler explanation (probably cheaper) than the time paradox one, but I honestly feel that it works better for a setting that is supposed to provide the base for other stories to be built, not to tell people that their stories are irrelevant because everything is fated since a bunch of pointy eared a******s decided to unleash a cataclysm on the Realms, so that they could have their pretty little island.
This theory is why I like most the Legacy of Kain approach to the Sundering time stuff: whatever change the elves did with their magic beyond creating Evermeet was just minor. They did not altered the timeline in a way that the "destiny" became a fixed thing.
With minor things, I mean stuff like, debilitating the planar boundaries to allow the existence of a part of Arvandor in the Material Plane. This later allowed the batrachi to summon primordials, changing the original timeline. In the original timeline, the batrachi were also about to summon the primordials, but maybe failed or maybe not—as the timeline is flexible we don't know, as the timeline was changed. But batrachi trying to summon primordials was bound to happen regardless of elven intervention. The elven Sundering just allowed for one possibility (freed primordials) to happen.
But other events? Those happened regardless of time paradoxes, because, in the "LoK" theory of how time works, if you create a time paradox, history only will change in specific and minor ways, taking the "path of less resistance" to maintain history as unchanged as possible.
So, the elven Sundering may have allowed the freeing of the Primordials, but the creation of Cormyr has nothing to do with the Tearfall. That happened because in the old timeline there was a Cormyr.
For this to work, we must accept that a time paradox just happen because of the elven Sundering, whatever how minor its effects were. If a paradox didn't happened, then this mean what you said: everything is fated and bound to happen regardless of choice (as this elven mage witnessed not only the past, but also the future, and saw the Era of Upheaval as a fixed event in time). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Jul 2017 04:20:33 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 04:27:29
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I'm rather sleepy now (5 am here), so bear with me. Wouldn't it still be true that most major events that led up to the era of upheaval, and the era itself, are fixed in time and caused by the Sundering? At that point, how would you determine whether something is tied to the Sundering or not (especially because timelines are usually affected by "butterfly effects")?
Otherwise, we could simply say that Elliandreth's prophecy was just that, divination. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 17 Jul 2017 04:33:19 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 05:00:56
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What we know of the First Sundering is that it rippled forward and backward in time, and this elven mage saw two specific events:
—In the past, the Tearfall and the Original Sundering
—In the future (from his perspective), the Era of Upheaval and the Second Sundering.
So, what was changed in the timeline? Those two specific points of time. In those points, minor changes allowed the batrachi to free the primordials, and Bane and Myrkul to find and steal the Tablets of Fate. That this caused some major changes to the timeline? Yes, this do. Thanks to the Tearfall, there are two universes now (Abeir and Toril) instead of just one (Abeir-Toril). Thanks to the Era of Upheaval, the Spellplague happened, and the history of Toril was changed in profound ways.
But nothing of this affected other events in time. Let's say, for instance, the dragon civilization. The dragon civilization happened in the original timeline, and so also happened in the new timeline. But as time is changeable (not a fixed thing), we have that dragon civilization was fleeting in Toril, while it became a world-dominating civilization in Abeir. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 05:04:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Otherwise, we could simply say that Elliandreth's prophecy was just that, divination.
But is divination magic that accurate? Because if not, that means fixed history. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 17 Jul 2017 05:07:01 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 06:51:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Otherwise, we could simply say that Elliandreth's prophecy was just that, divination.
But is divination magic that accurate? Because if not, that means fixed history.
That was the point I was making to KanzenAU. We are trying to wiggle out from all of the unfortunate implications of having the Elves alter time. As I said to KanzenAU, even if the Elves are not responsible, the fact that Elliandreth saw the future Sundering still causes a problem for free will in the Realms.
After all, if he saw the future Sundering, then that means that the Time of Troubles is fated to happen, which means that everything that led up to it is fated to happen. It means that Ao destroys the Tablets. It also means that everything after the Time of Troubles--including the Spellplague--is fated to happen, all culminating in the third Sundering. These are all necessary precursors to the third Sundering.
...and the same can be said for all the prophecies of the Realms. Alaundo's prophecies and the Roll of Years... He foresaw the death of Bhaal and the events with the Bhaalspawn. If this was fated to happen, then it means that Bhaal could not avoid it, and everything was determined.
This kinda makes the discussion over whether or not the Elves altered time moot, because even if they did alter time, they were always going to do so, and thus nothing ever really changed.
Free will is an illusion. Forgotten Realms = Fatalistic Realms.
One way to "fix" this problem is to have Ao, in the new Tablets of Fate, write free will into them, thus changing the Realms from a fiercely deterministic world to one where free will can exist. He could also scribble some notes in there about how it is impossible to alter time, and also you cannot see the future. No one in the Realms would notice any difference because they were already living with the illusion of free will, the difference now is that it is no longer an illusion. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 06:56:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Otherwise, we could simply say that Elliandreth's prophecy was just that, divination.
But is divination magic that accurate? Because if not, that means fixed history.
Oooh, determinism vs free will! Now we're getting interesting!
Personally, I've always been a deterministic sort of guy (but definitely not fatalistic - life's too interesting for that). I've had a lot of discussions about this sort of stuff in my years, academic and social. I'm pretty solidly in the genetics+environment camp, but I think there's room for lots of discussion.
I would say (as perhaps was made apparent by my ripples in a flat sheet analogy earlier) that the past and future have already been determined - there is no free will, in us or the gods. Thus, at the time of the Elven Sundering, Elliandreth sees what has happened, and what will happen. Whether or not the Elven Sundering caused the other Sunderings is not answered by determinism/free will however.
Those writings from the SCAG make it sound like mortals do indeed believe the Elven Sundering caused the others - but the designers are also very careful to not say "this is what happened", they're wording it very carefully so that we can't be sure. I still think (due to the way the speech in the video is worded and the language of Erik's writing) that the Elven Sundering just allowed Elliandreth to witness the other two events. But, it's equally possible that the Elven Sundering did somehow change the nature of the universe backwards and forwards in time.
Even if standing at a deterministic viewpoint, it depends how you see the nature of time. Some people believe that time as humans experience it is not a true representation of time at all - all of time already exists, and the experience of a human life is just pushing play in a section of it. Others believe that time is continually being built, and the future doesn't yet exist until we (our current consciousnesses - there are no consciousnesses forward in time in this version) get there. This latter version allows for either determinism or free-will, and if taking up the latter, branching realities. However, what "free-will" means is very much up for debate in itself. If we take away genetics, and we take away our environment throughout our life, what is left?
And then of course the possibility of time-travel comes along and rumbles things up even more. Elliandreth viewing the past and future is one thing, but what about mages that travel back in time to change things? Netheril: Empire of Magic left it in the hands of the Dungeon Master as to whether or not it was possible to affect the timeline in any way, but the default assumed that the PCs were unable to make changes. Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves goes as to far as to say that some sages believe that time-travel magic will automatically prevent time travel from occurring if changes will be made, but again leaves it to the DM. However, it does say that if the DM allows changes, the time-travellers are forced to stay in that time, allowing for the possibility that history might right itself, because the PCs will never find out!
Essentially the writers seem to have been consistently careful throughout to avoid saying whether or not it's definitively possible to create alternative timelines, or if there's just one. And they've definitely avoided the determinism/free will argument, which is fair enough - discussion about the issue tends to draw in religion, and then things start to get uncomfortable for people. In fact, I think I'll stop there. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 08:29:25
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Otherwise, we could simply say that Elliandreth's prophecy was just that, divination.
But is divination magic that accurate? Because if not, that means fixed history.
Oooh, determinism vs free will! Now we're getting interesting!
Personally, I've always been a deterministic sort of guy (but definitely not fatalistic - life's too interesting for that). I've had a lot of discussions about this sort of stuff in my years, academic and social. I'm pretty solidly in the genetics+environment camp, but I think there's room for lots of discussion.
I would say (as perhaps was made apparent by my ripples in a flat sheet analogy earlier) that the past and future have already been determined - there is no free will, in us or the gods. Thus, at the time of the Elven Sundering, Elliandreth sees what has happened, and what will happen. Whether or not the Elven Sundering caused the other Sunderings is not answered by determinism/free will however.
Those writings from the SCAG make it sound like mortals do indeed believe the Elven Sundering caused the others - but the designers are also very careful to not say "this is what happened", they're wording it very carefully so that we can't be sure. I still think (due to the way the speech in the video is worded and the language of Erik's writing) that the Elven Sundering just allowed Elliandreth to witness the other two events. But, it's equally possible that the Elven Sundering did somehow change the nature of the universe backwards and forwards in time.
Even if standing at a deterministic viewpoint, it depends how you see the nature of time. Some people believe that time as humans experience it is not a true representation of time at all - all of time already exists, and the experience of a human life is just pushing play in a section of it. Others believe that time is continually being built, and the future doesn't yet exist until we (our current consciousnesses - there are no consciousnesses forward in time in this version) get there. This latter version allows for either determinism or free-will, and if taking up the latter, branching realities. However, what "free-will" means is very much up for debate in itself. If we take away genetics, and we take away our environment throughout our life, what is left?
And then of course the possibility of time-travel comes along and rumbles things up even more. Elliandreth viewing the past and future is one thing, but what about mages that travel back in time to change things? Netheril: Empire of Magic left it in the hands of the Dungeon Master as to whether or not it was possible to affect the timeline in any way, but the default assumed that the PCs were unable to make changes. Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves goes as to far as to say that some sages believe that time-travel magic will automatically prevent time travel from occurring if changes will be made, but again leaves it to the DM. However, it does say that if the DM allows changes, the time-travellers are forced to stay in that time, allowing for the possibility that history might right itself, because the PCs will never find out!
Essentially the writers seem to have been consistently careful throughout to avoid saying whether or not it's definitively possible to create alternative timelines, or if there's just one. And they've definitely avoided the determinism/free will argument, which is fair enough - discussion about the issue tends to draw in religion, and then things start to get uncomfortable for people. In fact, I think I'll stop there.
However, the vision had by Elliandreth--being so far into the future--pretty much locks us into a fatalistic/predetermined world.
Sure, if we view the Sundering stuff in isolation, you might be able to wiggle in there with some determinism. You might be able to make the argument that certain events are determined, but the specific cause and effect events that trigger them are not. This is similar to what Zeromaru X was going for with the Legacy of Kain reference.
The problem with that is when you start bringing in other stuff, such as Alaundo's prophecies. He literally predicted the death of Bhaal, the fact that he would sire children before his death, and that later his children would do battle. All of it came true. Bhaal also died during the Time of Troubles.
Alaundo is also responsible for the Roll of Years. The name of the years are literally supposed to reflect important events that happen in them. They did not start hammering that home until 3E, when you start seeing stuff like Year of Rogue Dragons -- Dracorage, Year of Risen Elfkin -- Elves Return, Year of Blue Fire -- Spellplague.
So, Alaundo was not just predicting that certain events would happen, he was predicting WHEN they would happen. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 09:21:41
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Essentially the writers seem to have been consistently careful throughout to avoid saying whether or not it's definitively possible to create alternative timelines, or if there's just one. And they've definitely avoided the determinism/free will argument, which is fair enough - discussion about the issue tends to draw in religion, and then things start to get uncomfortable for people. In fact, I think I'll stop there.
However careful the writers have been, they already told us, in canon products, that there are multiple timelines in the Realms: Abeir and Toril both exist in different parallel timelines (Abeir is said to exist in pocket dimension within Realmspace, that is "out of synchrony" with Toril. To be out of synchrony with Toril, Abeir needs a timeline on its own that isn't aligned to how the time moves in Toril).
So, we know that branching timelines do exist in canon FR. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 09:40:49
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To Aldrick:
I'm not arguing that things aren't predetermined, I'm saying that they are (through cause and effect, genetics, environment, etc ad nauseum). That's not a bug of existence for me, that's a feature - I don't just see FR that way, but life too. I choose to look at that through a deterministic lens, not a fatalistic lens.
To Zeromaru X:
Abeir and Toril exist in parallel dimensions, out of sync with each other, yes. I don't see this as meaning that there are branching timelines necessarily - both events may just be occurring at different times, and in different space. Time may even flow at a different rate on Abeir comparatively to Toril - maybe on Abeir it flows more like a human heart beat rather than a flat line! However, this doesn't mean the timelines are different - they may just be different experiences of the same timeline (and of course they're in a different place as well).
Either way, I'm not arguing that anyone here is wrong about anything. I'd be fine with "free-will" and branching timelines. Just putting it out there that a deterministic world might not be so awful, and it's how I see the world, both real and fantasy. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 17 Jul 2017 09:41:26 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 17:32:58
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| Oooh, this scroll is getting deep lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 17 Jul 2017 17:44:48 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 20:13:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
What we know of the First Sundering is that it rippled forward and backward in time, and this elven mage saw two specific events:
—In the past, the Tearfall and the Original Sundering
—In the future (from his perspective), the Era of Upheaval and the Second Sundering.
So, what was changed in the timeline? Those two specific points of time. In those points, minor changes allowed the batrachi to free the primordials, and Bane and Myrkul to find and steal the Tablets of Fate. That this caused some major changes to the timeline? Yes, this do. Thanks to the Tearfall, there are two universes now (Abeir and Toril) instead of just one (Abeir-Toril). Thanks to the Era of Upheaval, the Spellplague happened, and the history of Toril was changed in profound ways.
But nothing of this affected other events in time. Let's say, for instance, the dragon civilization. The dragon civilization happened in the original timeline, and so also happened in the new timeline. But as time is changeable (not a fixed thing), we have that dragon civilization was fleeting in Toril, while it became a world-dominating civilization in Abeir.
Ok, I've missed all the posts since my last one, but now I should be caught up. So, in short, you're saying that some parts of the timeline would be locked in time, while others would have a greater degree of freedom. That said, my point was that even small changes in something may cause larger changes in something that was apparently unrelated. This is true for any system that has a lot of variables, and a whole world is just the perfect example of that (it's the reason why things like climate predictions tend to be more unreliable than other stuff). Now, the elven sundering supposedly caused massive changes by fixating massive events, and even whole pieces of timeline, in history, so at that point we would have the certainty that a number of hugely impacting historical events would be fated to happen as they did, and that would dramatically shape a whole lot of other events that are even just remotely related to--say--the ToT. For example, the death of so many of Torm's followers in Tantras is destined to happen no matter what. That event itself would drastically influence the future too, by removing individuals that could have--just to name a trivial example--saved further lives, leading up to a chain in which the elven sundering dictates heavy boundary conditions for the timeline--although the farther we get from those events, the less rigid the boundaries. However, those 100 years would be pretty much fixed. That's a tangled mess, and a whole lot of things, and it gives elven magic a kind of power over the timeline that I really don't like. That said, this version is much better than "all is fated".
As for that divination, yes, we could assume that it was that accurate. However, the Spellplague, gods battling, Abeir and Toril merging and then being sundered again, all those things were shown to Elliandreth not in a specific way, rather as more indefinite images, that were then interpreted as they have been. After all, elven high magic is shown to be capable of impressive feats, why not a divination far in the future? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 17 Jul 2017 20:25:19 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 22:01:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Free will is an illusion. Forgotten Realms = Fatalistic Realms.
One way to "fix" this problem is to have Ao, in the new Tablets of Fate, write free will into them, thus changing the Realms from a fiercely deterministic world to one where free will can exist. He could also scribble some notes in there about how it is impossible to alter time, and also you cannot see the future. No one in the Realms would notice any difference because they were already living with the illusion of free will, the difference now is that it is no longer an illusion.
Of course, if the world was fatalistic until Ao wrote it in, then wouldn't it have been pre-determined (and thus not of free will), for Ao to write in free will? I ask this because, if all these events were pre-determined to occur, including the Era of Upheaval, then it would mean Ao himself does not have free will to change events, until he writes it in the Tablets, which in itself would not be an act of free will if he was already fated to do it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 17 Jul 2017 22:04:06 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 22:34:42
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Free will is an illusion. Forgotten Realms = Fatalistic Realms.
One way to "fix" this problem is to have Ao, in the new Tablets of Fate, write free will into them, thus changing the Realms from a fiercely deterministic world to one where free will can exist. He could also scribble some notes in there about how it is impossible to alter time, and also you cannot see the future. No one in the Realms would notice any difference because they were already living with the illusion of free will, the difference now is that it is no longer an illusion.
Of course, if the world was fatalistic until Ao wrote it in, then wouldn't it have been pre-determined (and thus not of free will), for Ao to write in free will? I ask this because, if all these events were pre-determined to occur, including the Era of Upheaval, then it would mean Ao himself does not have free will to change events, until he writes it in the Tablets, which in itself would not be an act of free will if he was already fated to do it.
Yeah, that would be true. Of course, if Ao did that then it no longer matters.
I mean, either we accept that the world is predetermined, and the actions do not objectively matter ("It was always fated to play out this way!") or we just fix this (unintentional) flaw in the design. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 23:09:30
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| Important to not fall down the rabbit hole of determinism = nothing matters, evrrything is fated. The roles of people and things in events are still incredibly important, even if things are determined by the past - that's a key difference between determinism and fatalism. The absence of free-will does not mean "nothing matters", though admittedly if the concept of free-will is important to you then that can be a hard boulder to move around. I highly recommend any philosophical textbook on the issue of free-will - always a great read! That said, I'll move on from this thread now and leave it to you good "free-willers"! |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2017 : 23:24:09
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| We don't want to deter you from the thread, KanzenAU. It's all about discussion, so any insight is welcome. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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2nd Sundering musings
