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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2017 :  18:53:34  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
If this theory has already been discussed and/or debunked, feel free to correct me. This is something I just thought of the other day, and it was prompted by this line in a wiki article:

"The Second Sundering was somehow connected to the First Sundering that took place around -17600 DR when an elven High Magic ritual went both forward and backward in time to create Evermeet."

Link: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Sundering#Aftermath.

It says citation is needed for that statement, but it still got me thinking. I knew about the magic from the ritual going backward and forward in time, but what if the magic that went forward was still there, and helped bring about the Second Sundering, or at least the events leading up to it? Ao rewrote the Tablets of Fate, which helped bring about the Second Sundering and the ensuing events, but what if the remnants of the First Sundering spell helped enable all this to happen, or helped change events? Like a sonic bomb; the sound doesn't reach your ears until the cause of the noise has already happened. Other events and factors come in to play, of course, but what if the "ripples" from the high magic ritual helped influence them, one way or another?


I don't have much ground for this theory, as it was more just a passing thought, but I wanted to share and see what other people think.

Sweet water and light laughter

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2017 :  20:09:47  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, as I always say, 'When in doubt, blame the Elves.'

In all seriousness, I do believe that they are connected. I do not know where in canon it says they are connected, but I remember developer discussions around the time of the Sundering briefly discussing the connection. I think there is probably something here deep in the halls of the keep where we discussed it at the time.

Even if it cannot be proven with a canon source, why would it use the same name? My assumption, like yours, is that it functioned like a sonic boom--rippling throughout time and space. The Second Sundering is the 'tail end' of the First Sundering, and Ao just 'brought it to a close'--for lack of a better way of putting it. Who knows what would have happened if Ao did not intervene? Perhaps Abeir and Toril merge and fuse back together. Perhaps the entire world explodes--you're dealing with Elven high magic, so you know whatever the consequences are that they are bad.

There are bigger implications regarding both the Tablets of Fate and the Sunderings and how they impact free will. Are the people of Toril truly free, or is history already set in stone? Are people just acting out a pre-planned script? Maybe the Elves are (unintentionally) responsible for the chaos between the two Sundering events. Maybe they altered history in such a way that it overwrote the original Tablets of Fate, which led to things like the Time of Troubles, the war between the various deities, even their own Retreat. Perhaps this is how Bane and Myrkul were able to steal the Tablets in the first place and defy the will of Ao. Maybe in rewriting the Tablets of Fate Ao is liberating Toril and Abeir to once again seek out their own destinies free of the effects of the Sundering.

I mean, when you start screwing with the effects of time itself--potentially rewriting the world's past and future history--bad things are sure to result. One thing it would do is rewrite the original intent of the creation.

This may sound far fetched, but it is one way to square the canon. At the end of the Time of Troubles, when Ao once again has the Tablets of Fate, he mocks the deities and calls the Tablets worthless. He then destroys the Tablets and pronounces his punishment on the gods. If the Tablets were worthless, why did he create them in the first place, and what impact would re-creating worthless tablets really have? The implication there is that they were not worthless in the past, but something occurred to --MAKE-- them worthless. This could have been the Elven Sundering. Ao would have had to wait until the appropriate moment in time to rewrite the Tablets to avoid them having them influenced by Elven High Magic.

...this would also likely mean that Corellon and his faithful mortal servants beat Bane and Myrkul to the punch. They sought the Tablets to try and rewrite the destinies of the deities, but Corellon and the Elven High Magic may have overwritten them already.

All of this speculation then leads to me wondering what the implications will be to the Elves, now that the Sundering is over?
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2017 :  23:36:16  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I kind of wondered if magic functioned...differently, in Faerie. Maybe different isn't the right word, since the principles are likely the same, but performing high elven rituals may not have had the same...ramifications it does on Faerun. So, when the elves migrated, they had no way of knowing their most powerful spells were going to have long-lasting consequences. Of course, a different high magic ritual was performed later, as well (once a fluke, twice...oops? lol). They were "cut off" in a way from access to the magic (or were wielding a "diluted" form of it), so when they channeled it, there were complications neither the Seldarine nor the mages had foreseen.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  00:19:27  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What do you think are the ramifications of the Elves post-Sundering 2.0?

If the Elves were somehow tied to the first Sundering, and the creation of the New Tablets of Fate ended its effects... I cannot imagine that the Elves would not experience any sort of repercussions.

Maybe Elves begin to slowly lose some of their connection to the Weave. They begin to find it harder and harder to enter into reverie and need to sleep as humans do, and their life spans begin to shrink to be more in line with a human lifespan. On the other hand, they are able to breed at the same rate as humans.

...although this would only impact Elves who do not live on Evermeet. Because of Evermeets connection to Avandor those connections to their deities and the Weave remain. This means that aging Elves, seeking to stave off death, would travel into the West.

I mean, the Retreat is still over, right? The Tree of Souls remains planted at Myth Drannor. There is no reason that the portal there should not be allowing Elves to come over in large numbers, helping to rebuild the city and re-establish the kingdom there. As this happens, they could start to notice the effects--although the issues with reverie would be noticed sooner.

I don't know. It just seems like there should be some type of repercussion. There also needs to be a reason to keep most of the Elves on Evermeet and off the mainland. That seems like a good way to do it. It also gives the Elves on the mainland an ability to play on a more level field as humans, due to having their breeding capabilities be equal to them.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  01:11:38  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, let's throw another wrinkle in all of this... The whole Eladrin issue introduced by 4th Edition.

So, we have some Elves who are Eladrin. Eladrin are extra-planar Fey who live in the Feywild and Avandor. They also have some sort of connection to the Elves, and some Elves of the Realms even refer to themselves as Eladrin. According to canon Eladrin of the Realms lost their connection to the Feywild with the Sundering 1.0, but regained after the Spellplague. My guess is that they lost it again post-Sundering 2.0.

Theory: Fairie was actually a domain within the Feywild inhabited by Eladrin. The Eladrin were the race created by Corellon. After the Eladrin fled Fairie they moved to inhabit other areas of the Feywild, Avandor, and many different Prime Worlds. Toril was one such Prime World. Extended periods of time outside of the Feywild for the Eladrin leads them to develop connections to their new world after a couple of generations. So after a couple of generations on Toril, the first 'Elves' or the pseudo-Gold and Moon Elves come into being. Overtime, more sub groups of Elves splinter off from these originals, becoming the other subraces of the Elves. One of the consequences of the first Sundering is that it stripped from the pseudo-Sun and Moon Elves their connection to the Feywild, more heavily connecting them to the Weave and Toril.

When the Spellplague happened, those with the "purist" blood (those Sun and Moon Elves whose lineage is not "tainted" by interbreeding with non-Sun or Moon Elves), their connection to the Feywild is restored. However, post-Sundering 2.0 that connection is lost again, and the effects listed in my previous post begins to happen to any Elves that do not live on Evermeet.

Basically, they are being pushed closer and closer to mortality, and further and further away from their supernatural fey roots.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2729 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  02:07:09  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Well, as I always say, 'When in doubt, blame the Elves.'

In all seriousness, I do believe that they are connected. I do not know where in canon it says they are connected, but I remember developer discussions around the time of the Sundering briefly discussing the connection. I think there is probably something here deep in the halls of the keep where we discussed it at the time.

Even if it cannot be proven with a canon source, why would it use the same name? My assumption, like yours, is that it functioned like a sonic boom--rippling throughout time and space. The Second Sundering is the 'tail end' of the First Sundering, and Ao just 'brought it to a close'--for lack of a better way of putting it. Who knows what would have happened if Ao did not intervene? Perhaps Abeir and Toril merge and fuse back together. Perhaps the entire world explodes--you're dealing with Elven high magic, so you know whatever the consequences are that they are bad.

There are bigger implications regarding both the Tablets of Fate and the Sunderings and how they impact free will. Are the people of Toril truly free, or is history already set in stone? Are people just acting out a pre-planned script? Maybe the Elves are (unintentionally) responsible for the chaos between the two Sundering events. Maybe they altered history in such a way that it overwrote the original Tablets of Fate, which led to things like the Time of Troubles, the war between the various deities, even their own Retreat. Perhaps this is how Bane and Myrkul were able to steal the Tablets in the first place and defy the will of Ao. Maybe in rewriting the Tablets of Fate Ao is liberating Toril and Abeir to once again seek out their own destinies free of the effects of the Sundering.

I mean, when you start screwing with the effects of time itself--potentially rewriting the world's past and future history--bad things are sure to result. One thing it would do is rewrite the original intent of the creation.

This may sound far fetched, but it is one way to square the canon. At the end of the Time of Troubles, when Ao once again has the Tablets of Fate, he mocks the deities and calls the Tablets worthless. He then destroys the Tablets and pronounces his punishment on the gods. If the Tablets were worthless, why did he create them in the first place, and what impact would re-creating worthless tablets really have? The implication there is that they were not worthless in the past, but something occurred to --MAKE-- them worthless. This could have been the Elven Sundering. Ao would have had to wait until the appropriate moment in time to rewrite the Tablets to avoid them having them influenced by Elven High Magic.

...this would also likely mean that Corellon and his faithful mortal servants beat Bane and Myrkul to the punch. They sought the Tablets to try and rewrite the destinies of the deities, but Corellon and the Elven High Magic may have overwritten them already.

All of this speculation then leads to me wondering what the implications will be to the Elves, now that the Sundering is over?



This makes quite a bit of sense. It would also explain why Ao decided to bring back so many deities. What happened to them was unfairly influenced (or heck, even decided) by the Sundering.

This however brings in some things that I really don't like. For example, the elven gods would be able to warp the world as they please, on par with an entity like Ao (and I already keep Ao out of my Realms, a whole race having his potential would automatically puts them above anyone else).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2729 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  02:14:34  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

When the Spellplague happened, those with the "purist" blood (those Sun and Moon Elves whose lineage is not "tainted" by interbreeding with non-Sun or Moon Elves), their connection to the Feywild is restored. However, post-Sundering 2.0 that connection is lost again, and the effects listed in my previous post begins to happen to any Elves that do not live on Evermeet.

Basically, they are being pushed closer and closer to mortality, and further and further away from their supernatural fey roots.



I don't get why, starting from those assumptions, the Second Sundering would influence the elves like that. If anything, since the Second Sundering undid (at least some effects of) the first one, and since we're assuming that the first Sundering tied them to Toril and the Weave, it would bring them all closer to their fey roots, and further away from the Weave and Toril.

We know that--among the many effects--the first Sundering brought a piece of Arvandor/Feywild on Toril. Maybe that indirectly made the elves closer to the Weave (perhaps it could be their "anchor"). When the Spellplague broke the spell that kept Evermeet anchored to Toril, they all returned to be closer to their original fey nature. After the Second Sundering somehow restored Evermeet, they have regained that "anchor" again, and their nature is now once again closer to the Weave/Toril than to the Feywild.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 16 Jul 2017 02:15:09
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  02:35:34  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Well, as I always say, 'When in doubt, blame the Elves.'

In all seriousness, I do believe that they are connected. I do not know where in canon it says they are connected, but I remember developer discussions around the time of the Sundering briefly discussing the connection. I think there is probably something here deep in the halls of the keep where we discussed it at the time.

Even if it cannot be proven with a canon source, why would it use the same name? My assumption, like yours, is that it functioned like a sonic boom--rippling throughout time and space. The Second Sundering is the 'tail end' of the First Sundering, and Ao just 'brought it to a close'--for lack of a better way of putting it. Who knows what would have happened if Ao did not intervene? Perhaps Abeir and Toril merge and fuse back together. Perhaps the entire world explodes--you're dealing with Elven high magic, so you know whatever the consequences are that they are bad.

There are bigger implications regarding both the Tablets of Fate and the Sunderings and how they impact free will. Are the people of Toril truly free, or is history already set in stone? Are people just acting out a pre-planned script? Maybe the Elves are (unintentionally) responsible for the chaos between the two Sundering events. Maybe they altered history in such a way that it overwrote the original Tablets of Fate, which led to things like the Time of Troubles, the war between the various deities, even their own Retreat. Perhaps this is how Bane and Myrkul were able to steal the Tablets in the first place and defy the will of Ao. Maybe in rewriting the Tablets of Fate Ao is liberating Toril and Abeir to once again seek out their own destinies free of the effects of the Sundering.

I mean, when you start screwing with the effects of time itself--potentially rewriting the world's past and future history--bad things are sure to result. One thing it would do is rewrite the original intent of the creation.

This may sound far fetched, but it is one way to square the canon. At the end of the Time of Troubles, when Ao once again has the Tablets of Fate, he mocks the deities and calls the Tablets worthless. He then destroys the Tablets and pronounces his punishment on the gods. If the Tablets were worthless, why did he create them in the first place, and what impact would re-creating worthless tablets really have? The implication there is that they were not worthless in the past, but something occurred to --MAKE-- them worthless. This could have been the Elven Sundering. Ao would have had to wait until the appropriate moment in time to rewrite the Tablets to avoid them having them influenced by Elven High Magic.

...this would also likely mean that Corellon and his faithful mortal servants beat Bane and Myrkul to the punch. They sought the Tablets to try and rewrite the destinies of the deities, but Corellon and the Elven High Magic may have overwritten them already.

All of this speculation then leads to me wondering what the implications will be to the Elves, now that the Sundering is over?



This makes quite a bit of sense. It would also explain why Ao decided to bring back so many deities. What happened to them was unfairly influenced (or heck, even decided) by the Sundering.

This however brings in some things that I really don't like. For example, the elven gods would be able to warp the world as they please, on par with an entity like Ao (and I already keep Ao out of my Realms, a whole race having his potential would automatically puts them above anyone else).



I don't think the elven gods have that ability (much as I may love Corellon, I won't make him more powerful than Ao ). I don't think the Seldarine foresaw the consequences of the high elven rituals anymore than the mages themselves did.

Sweet water and light laughter
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  03:13:37  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Oh, let's throw another wrinkle in all of this... The whole Eladrin issue introduced by 4th Edition.

So, we have some Elves who are Eladrin. Eladrin are extra-planar Fey who live in the Feywild and Avandor. They also have some sort of connection to the Elves, and some Elves of the Realms even refer to themselves as Eladrin. According to canon Eladrin of the Realms lost their connection to the Feywild with the Sundering 1.0, but regained after the Spellplague. My guess is that they lost it again post-Sundering 2.0.

Theory: Fairie was actually a domain within the Feywild inhabited by Eladrin. The Eladrin were the race created by Corellon. After the Eladrin fled Fairie they moved to inhabit other areas of the Feywild, Avandor, and many different Prime Worlds. Toril was one such Prime World. Extended periods of time outside of the Feywild for the Eladrin leads them to develop connections to their new world after a couple of generations. So after a couple of generations on Toril, the first 'Elves' or the pseudo-Gold and Moon Elves come into being. Overtime, more sub groups of Elves splinter off from these originals, becoming the other subraces of the Elves. One of the consequences of the first Sundering is that it stripped from the pseudo-Sun and Moon Elves their connection to the Feywild, more heavily connecting them to the Weave and Toril.

When the Spellplague happened, those with the "purist" blood (those Sun and Moon Elves whose lineage is not "tainted" by interbreeding with non-Sun or Moon Elves), their connection to the Feywild is restored. However, post-Sundering 2.0 that connection is lost again, and the effects listed in my previous post begins to happen to any Elves that do not live on Evermeet.

Basically, they are being pushed closer and closer to mortality, and further and further away from their supernatural fey roots.



I didn't like how 4e made eladrin synonymous with high/gold elves. Eladrin, to me, have always been the extra-planr beings. Celestial elves, if you will (though I would make an exception for those of the Feywild).

I had a theory that, when the elves migrated from Faerie, they "lost touch" with the magic of the Feywild, even though they were still, by nature, more attuned to magic than humans, given their close connection to the Weave. But the elves of Toril were now "diluted", so even the "purist" elves were not as "pure" as those in Faerie. This affected their ability to perform high magic rituals to the extent they did in the Fearie. In other words, they couldn't control it as well.

So, they created Evermeet to get that purity back, but of course, since they were already separated from Faerie, the very creation of Evermeet had far-reaching consequences that it may not have happened had this same ritual been performed in Faerie/Feywild.

This theory starts to fall apart however with the second big high elven ritual that caused the Descent. By that time, Evermeet existed, so they should have been able to better reach their original "target", but we all know what happened there. However, if I remember correctly, the ritual wasn't actually performed on Evermeet, so the mages were still "separated" from that purity, which means the spell more easily goes awry.

As for the ramifications of post-Sundering 2.0...I don't think they will become more "human", or lose their connection to the Weave. If anything, I think the ramifications have already happened, and in fact--been happening--for a while now, what with that has gone on in the Realms, and the affects of the Second Sundering have already happened, so I don't see any big future consequences that haven't already taken place.

Sweet water and light laughter
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4923 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  04:11:24  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When 5E and the Sundering were announced and a few of us grognards were recruited to seemingly talk up the Edition change, Eric Boyd came up with an over-arching explanation for/exploration of all of the "big" Sundering type events in Realms history, Abeir, Toril, Faerie, Evermeet, the Feydark, Earth (Terra) and a bunch of other stuff. WotC elected not to use it.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
788 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  05:07:55  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I didn't like how 4e made eladrin synonymous with high/gold elves. Eladrin, to me, have always been the extra-planr beings. Celestial elves, if you will (though I would make an exception for those of the Feywild).



4e made a distinction between the "minor" eladrin (the playable race) and the "noble" eladrin (who had names such as ghaele and bralani, and that-- they are in the Monster Manual, and the eladrin racial paragon path allowed players to become shiere eladrin), who were the lords and ladies of the Feywild. So the "extra-planar eladrin" did existed in 4e, just that players got to play with lesser versions of then. I don't see that outlandish, seeing that 3.x had player versions of nearly every race (I wouldn't be surprised if someday I found a playable version of oozes).

I don't have seen the extra-planar eladrin in 5e, though.

I don't either liked that eladrin were lumped together with high elves (moon/sun). IHMO, eladrin are alien elves from the fairy land, the ancestral race of elves (more fae than Tolkien-ish).

I do like how they handled this issue in 5e: eladrin is a separate sub-race (in the DMG), so we have the three sub-races to play with: the ancestral eladrin, and the traditional high and wood elves.

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

When 5E and the Sundering were announced and a few of us grognards were recruited to seemingly talk up the Edition change, Eric Boyd came up with an over-arching explanation for/exploration of all of the "big" Sundering type events in Realms history, Abeir, Toril, Faerie, Evermeet, the Feydark, Earth (Terra) and a bunch of other stuff. WotC elected not to use it.

-- George Krashos



This seems interesting. Do you have a link to that information?

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Jul 2017 05:15:41
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  05:20:40  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I didn't like how 4e made eladrin synonymous with high/gold elves. Eladrin, to me, have always been the extra-planr beings. Celestial elves, if you will (though I would make an exception for those of the Feywild).



4e made a distinction between the "minor" eladrin (the playable race) and the "noble" eladrin (who had names such as ghaele and bralani, and that-- they are in the Monster Manual, and the eladrin racial paragon path allowed players to become shiere eladrin), who were the lords and ladies of the Feywild. So the "extra-planar eladrin" did existed in 4e, just that players got to play with lesser versions of then. I don't see that outlandish, seeing that 3.x had player versions of nearly every race (I wouldn't be surprised if someday I found a playable version of oozes).



I know both kinds of eladrin (the extra-planar and the high/sun elves) existed, I just personally didn't like that they started calling high/sun elves elarin, too. In the Feywild, it made sense, but *shrugs* it's not that big of a deal lol, I just didn't didn't like it, as it made it a little confusing to me, even if they did differentiate between them. It was more a nuance that annoyed me lol, since before they were sun elves, and nothing really changed, other that they were now called the same thing as the noble elves of the Feywild and the extra-planar elves.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 16 Jul 2017 05:30:14
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  05:31:52  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And yeah, intersting, George. Any chance you could share it with us?

Sweet water and light laughter
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  05:44:55  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I didn't like how 4e made eladrin synonymous with high/gold elves. Eladrin, to me, have always been the extra-planr beings.


That is because it is a retcon that makes no sense in relation to previously established lore. However, it is canon now, unless the Sundering 2.0 magically altered time. Here is the 4E Forgotten Realms Player's Guide on the issue, pg. 14:

quote:
Drow, elves, and eladrin can all trace their histories back to a common ancestor in the Feywild. Millennia of life on Faerūn, coupled with their natural proclivity for adapting to their environment, have fostered numerous social, cultural, and even physical differences that result in making them distinct peoples. Although there are marked differences between eladrin and their cousin races, eladrin have subgroupings of their own that some folk mistake for different races.


This is distinct from the lore of the other Elves, 4E Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, pg. 15:
quote:
The elves of the present day are descended from the green elves, ancient settlers who emerged from Faerie to dwell in the mortal world. After vicious wars and terrible betrayals, the elves withdrew to the isolation of the wilderness. Generations of seclusion widened the cultural split between themselves and their eladrin cousins until the elves became a separate people. Elves congregate in two broad cultural groups. The most numerous are the wood elves [Copper Elves]... The second group is the wild elves, who consider themselves the truest descendants of the green elves.


All of this contradicts Races of Faerūn. Here is a snippet dealing with the history of each of the Elven Subraces:

Avariels, the Winged Elves, pg. 31:
quote:
Along with the green elves and lythari, the avariels are one of the three oldest elven races. Today, though, they are all but extinct, forced into the far corners of the world ages ago by the ancient dragons and hunted mercilessly by evil folk.

The avariels, upon first migrating to Faerūn millennia ago, found the world to be a vast, beautiful place. Unfortunately, vicious dragons ruled the skies above ancient Faerūn. The newly arrived avariels were nearly wiped out by the dragons before the First Flowering. The last of their race flew eastward long before the first Crown War, wandering the skies only when they had to, hiding on the ground like vermin and living terrible, dirty lives as nomads and scavengers.


Dark Elves, the Drow / Ilythiiri, pg. 35
quote:
In the beginning, the Ssri-tel-quessir were the most successful of the elven colonists to the new world of Faerūn. The nation of Ilythiir quickly became one of the most powerful of the early elven nations. But the Ssri-tel-quessir were not only the most successful of the elves of their time, they were also the most cruel and jealous. Despite their own accomplishments, they envied those of their neighbors all the same. While the First Crown War raged to the north, the dark elves waged their own war against their neighbors, seeking to dominate the elven realms of southern Faerūn.

Unsuccessful in three attempts to subjugate the neighboring realms, the dark elves of Ilythiir turned to a new and secret patron at the opening of the Fourth Crown War. The dark elves pledged their loyalties to the outcast Seldarine of the Demonweb Pits, and to Lolth in particular. The Spider Queen and her fellow exiles (with the notable exception of Eilistraee) granted the dark elves of Ilythiir great magical powers, fiendish allies, and support in return for their allegiance, and the Ilythiiri wreaked great havoc among the other elven realms.

But their success and victory were short-lived, for Corellon was shocked and deeply enraged by the traitorous acts of the dark elves. By his decree, the Ilythiiri elves were cursed, transformed into drow and banished from the surface world into the Underdark. They became known as the dhaeraow (the elven word for traitor), and over the centuries this word has since given them the name by which they are known: drow.


Green Elves, the Wild Elves, pg. 43
quote:
The wild elves were not always the feral creatures they have become today. Ages ago the green elves, as they were then known, were the first elven explorers (along with the lythari and the avariels) to discover Abeir-Toril, and they quickly became entranced with the wondrous young world. Of this first migration of elves, the green elves were easily the most successful, and they established several territories destined to become great nations: Thearnytaar, Eiellūr, Syņpiir, Miyeritar, and Keltormir.

Unfortunately, with the coming of the Crown Wars, these nations were among the first to fall. Eiellūr fell to the Ilythiiri (the dark elves) in –11,400 DR, and Thearnytaar in –11,200 DR. The realm of Miyeritar, located where the High Moor now lies, was utterly consumed by the Dark Disaster in –10,500 DR, and the other green elf realms fared little better. The peaceful green elves proved to be relatively easy prey for the cruel dark elves, and by the time the Crown Wars ended in –9000 DR, the idyllic world of the green elves had been shattered. Their great nations razed in centuries of relentless warfare, the green elves began a time they refer to as the Wandering. They never recovered fully from the setbacks of twelve thousand years ago, and raised no more great cities in Faerūn.


Gold Elves, the Sun Elves, pg. 40
quote:
The sun elves migrated to Faerūn at the same time as the moon elves and the dark elves. Although they were the least numerous of the three peoples, they nonetheless quickly established several great nations, including Aryvandaar and Othreier. Under the leadership of House Vyshaan, a dynasty of sun elves, the nation of Aryvandaar in particular soon became the most powerful elven realm of its time.

The Vyshaanti were aggressive expansionists, and their obsession with increasing the size of their empire at the expense of the other races is thought to be the major cause of the terrible Crown Wars of ten thousand years past. After the Fifth Crown War, the Vyshaanti were finally overthrown, and the sun elves returned to a less aggressive lifestyle that has changed little over the intervening millennia.

The next great nation founded by the sun elves was Cormanthyr in the year –3983 DR. This time they chose to build a realm founded on compassion, lore, and subtle magic instead of military might and great battle-mages. As a result, the nation was much kinder and more powerful in the long run, and the elves of Cormanthyr accomplished many amazing magical wonders. For thousands of years, Cormanthyr stood as the most powerful realm in northern Faerūn, eclipsed only briefly by Netheril at its height. From their city of Myth Drannor in the heart of the forest, the Coronals of Cormanthyr checked for centuries the burgeoning strength of young human lands such as Cormyr or Sembia that rose in the years after Netheril’s fall.

The raising of the Standing Stone and the Dales compact of 0 DR, peaceful though they were, signaled the beginning of the end of elven might in Faerūn. Although Myth Drannor achieved its greatest flowering in the years of peaceful human and elven coexistence, its days were numbered. Cormanthyr finally fell in 714 DR, when an overabundance of portals in the vicinity of Myth Drannor weakened the boundaries between worlds, allowing a disastrous invasion of fiends.


Silver Elves, the Moon Elves, pg. 38
quote:
Although the moon elves were not the first elves to migrate to Faerūn, they comprised the largest migration. Even in the ancient past their joy for travel seems to have been present, for they came to Faerūn in great numbers indeed. The moon elves wanted to explore this new world rather than settle down, and so did not establish nations of their own for some time, preferring to settle in other elven nations, such as Othreier and Keltormir. The only one of the ancient elven nations that the moon elves could truly call their own was Orishaar, which was defeated in –11,200 DR by the Ilythiiri.

Following the Crown Wars, moon elves helped to raise many of the nations of the second generation of elven realms. Survivors of Orishaar, in conjunction with clans from other realms that had been destroyed during the Crown Wars, founded the secret refuge of Evereska in –8600 DR, and many moon elves populated the glorious realm of Cormanthyr, founded in –3983 DR in the woods of the Elven Court. One by one the old elven realms faded away, until the fall of Myth Drannor in 714 DR left Evereska as the last moon elf city in Faerūn. Many nomadic moon elf bands still roamed the great forests of northern Faerūn, but no new elven kingdoms rose after the fall of the second-generation realms.


Aquatic Elves, the Sea Elves, pg. 18
quote:
Aquatic elves first appeared in the Great Sea untold ages ago, the last of the major elven races to migrate from the elven homeland into Faerūn. For many years, these elves lived nomadic lives and spent much of their time exploring the waters of their new world. The aquatic elves did not begin to settle down and form permanent communities in the depths until the time of the First Crown War. They knew of the Crown Wars, and often watched the battles from the safety of the water, but kept their interactions with their landbound kin to a minimum. Unfortunately, their attempt to avoid becoming entangled in the wars proved futile, and by the time of the Fourth Crown War, many aquatic elves fled to the Sea of Fallen Stars to establish a new nation sheltered from the madness of their kin.

The aquatic elves of the Sea of Fallen Stars have raised several distinct realms of varying size. Major colonies include Naramyr and Selu’Maraar, in the Dragonmere and Dragon Reach areas respectively. There are also several outposts east of the mouth of the Vilhon Reach and west of the Alamber, known as the Sharksbane Wall. Another colony called Faenasuor lies on the continental slopes east of Starmantle, and a number of small villages can be found among the reefs off the Fang of western Aglarond. In the Trackless Sea, a major sea elf city near Evermeet is called Iumathiashae (“Mother of Oceans”). Many additional colonies also lie off the coast of Tethyr.


Copper Elves, the Wood Elves, pg. 45
quote:
The wood elves are the most recent addition to the various elven subraces of Faerūn, although the history of their civilization still exceeds that of many other races of Toril. They also have the unusual distinction (often thought of as an honor by copper elves) of being the only subrace of elves to be actual natives to Faerūn. The first copper elves did not appear at once; their race coalesced slowly over the course of several centuries after the last Crown War, blending several of the older elven kindreds.

The Crown Wars brought down most of the great nations of the First Flowering. In the wake of these terrible wars, thousands of elves were left bereaved and homeless. Families were torn apart, and for many centuries (a time known to the elves as the Wandering Years) these elves simply led the lives of nomads. Some of Faerūn’s elves retreated to their ancestral homes and started to build anew, but on a smaller scale, raising the second generation of elven nations. But a significant portion of elves never felt the need to do so. These elves (mostly moon, sun, and green elves), vowed never again to let internal strife tear their kind apart, retreating to the deepest woodlands to seek shelter from the madness of the world.

Unlike the green elves, these self-imposed exiles did not slip into barbarism. Rather, they formed tightly knit societies that stayed in touch with other like-minded elven communities hidden away in other forests. Over time, these secluded elves grew closer to the natural world and further apart from the high magic and ancient lore the elves had brought from their first home, and became a new subrace of elves apart from their kin: the wood elves.

While the sun elves and moon elves founded realms such as Evermeet and Evereska after the Crown Wars, the great realm of the wood elves was ancient Eaerlann, a realm founded in the eastern High Forest around –4700 DR. The elves of Eaerlann engaged other young empires of the North in peaceful trade and diplomacy, befriending the dwarven realm of Delzoun soon after its establishment in –3900 DR, and tutoring the early Netherese in magic around –3830 DR.

...

In the years since the fall of Eaerlann, the wood elves have not raised any more great realms, choosing to put their trust in stealth and vigilance instead of castles and cities. Although they felt the call of the Elven Retreat, the wood elves did not respond. With the end of the Retreat, the wood elves have emerged from their secret homes in the depths of Faerūn’s woodlands as a strong and confident people whose wariness is tempered by compassion. The wood elves of the High Forest dream of reestablishing old Eaerlann, but this time their realm will be a realm of reclusive villages and watchful foresters, not walled cities and proud warriors.


So, this is the history of the Elves from 4th and 3rd Edition. The 4th Edition retcon is the new canon, but I am not sure what it means for the old canon.

I think the only way to square it is to say something like...

The progenitor of all the Elves is the Eladrin, fey-beings created in the image of the Arch-Fey Corellon, who eventually ascended to divinity. The Eladrin inhabit Arvandor, a domain located in the Feywild (retconned to be Faerie in 4th Edition). From there the Eladrin went on to inhabit many different Prime Material Worlds.

It is on these many prime worlds that the Eladrin began to diverge from their fey-nature, becoming two separate groups that are the progenitors of modern Elves: High Elves and Sylvan Elves. High Elves retained their connection to powerful fey magic, while the Sylvan Elves retained their connection to the natural world. Across numerous worlds, the High and Sylvan Elves further subdivided. The High Elves are the progenitors of the Sun Elves, the Moon Elves, the Ilythiiri (who became the Drow), and the Avariels. The Sylvan Elves are the progenitors of the Green/Wild Elves and the Sea Elves. They are also a generation removed from the Wood Elves--a race native to Toril--who are primarily descended from the Green Elves.

Each of the Elven migrations happened as stated in 3rd Edition lore.

This sort-of finds a way to square it, I think...

Of course, in fairness, the lore of the Elves has always been somewhat of a convoluted mess. I mean, do we know if the events that happened with Lolth happened on Toril, Avandor, some other world, or all simultaneously? The only thing we can say for certain is that it happened after the Ilythiiri were on Toril.
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KanzenAU
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Unfortunately I feel like the word Sundering was just used twice because it's a word that sounds cool and is associated with the setting. From a mortal perspective the naming makes sense - both were associated with land-shaking events, so on that level I'm fine with it. How would mortal humans tell the difference anyway? They couldn't be more different from a cosmological standpoint though.

With regards to the eladrin of 4e, I sold them as being gold and sun elves from Faerie - they were still attuned to the magic of the fey far more powerfully than the gold and silver elves already on Toril for twenty thousand years or whatever it was. The Spellplague simply brought the Feywild closer, and these "minor eladrin" came through to unite with their gold and silver brethren. So they're gold/silver elves, and they're also minor eladrin.

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Aldrick
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Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  05:57:58  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Unfortunately I feel like the word Sundering was just used twice because it's a word that sounds cool and is associated with the setting. From a mortal perspective the naming makes sense - both were associated with land-shaking events, so on that level I'm fine with it. How would mortal humans tell the difference anyway? They couldn't be more different from a cosmological standpoint though.


For some reason though, I seem to remember having discussions about the Sundering being related to the Elven Sundering. It was in the midst of the time the developers were talking about Ao reforging the Tablets of Fate, and describing the event in broad details.

Maybe someone else has more details. However, I am not sure if it is stated explicitly anywhere in the canon, and was not just something developers were talking about. A lot was being said at the time that ultimately did not turn out to be true...

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

With regards to the eladrin of 4e, I sold them as being gold and sun elves from Faerie - they were still attuned to the magic of the fey far more powerfully than the gold and silver elves already on Toril for twenty thousand years or whatever it was. The Spellplague simply brought the Feywild closer, and these "minor eladrin" came through to unite with their gold and silver brethren. So they're gold/silver elves, and they're also minor eladrin.


That may be the easiest way to handle it, I suppose. ...but where did the various sub-races of Elves come from if that is the case?
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  06:01:55  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like I said, for me, the name change was more a nuance annoyance than anything lol.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
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EDIT:
It took me so long to type all of this, there are about a dozen new posts now! I was responding to what CorellonsDevout said about Elven High Magic above (and then went off on my usual myriad tangents).


I still go with Ancient Fey High Magic (which should be what Elven High Magic is based on - the language of it is called HamaFae) was temporal in nature. It literally used the Butterfly Effect, causing some minor thing to occur back in time, in order to create a much larger outcome in the current time-period, that would accomplish the Elves' goals (its almost like using wishes - unless you are trying to be extremely specific, you can get some pretty wild and catastrophic results - typical "Monkey's Paw" scenario, which we see all the time when Elves decide to do something drastic with their High Magic).

The creation of Evermeet accidentally 'tapped into' the Sundering itself, and the repercussions of that (probably) were the destruction of Tintageer (in Faerie). The elves were unused to Toril's Weave, which super-charges any magic, and thats why they have so much trouble using Elven High Magic in Faerūn. Things 'get out of hand' rapidly, usually with unforeseen (and highly destructive) consequences. Its the equivalent of using a Nuke to blow-open a bank vault.

The Feywild (which probably only got that name after the Fey arrived there) is a highly malleable plane, with imprecise physics (including time-flow), so the fey Magic worked well there (the plane is literally designed to 'bend' around perceptions and magic, so you don't 'break' anything by casting those types of temporal-twisting magics). Going from that to Toril - an anarchistic set of physics with no true set of laws to govern it, to a world where there is not only stratified and inviolate RW physics, but also an 'Arcane Weave' with its own set of rules, that 'boosts' all forms of magic that are cast through it, must have been quite a shock for them (and at first they would have loved the Weave, not realizing with 'structure' comes inter-connectivity... like dominoes. Knock one down and you could lose the whole thing).

I was just checking some of the Planescape referecnes, and I am thinking that before the Fey entered the feywild (and created Faerie), it was probably a ginat-Realm, and maybe even the original Jotunheim. According to the Planescape Wiki, the 'Elves' (Eladrin?) drove the giants from their ancestral homes in 'Arboria', and thus they had to create Jotunheim in Ysgard. In Planescape, 'Faerie' is in Arboria, or, at least, frequently appears there (since it can move about). I'm thinking that the Feywild may have been another layer, or perhaps its the 'reflection of what the layer Mithardir once was (according to Planescape lore, there are legends it was once a giant realm before it became a desert). So perhaps the Eladrin (Mortal 'First Born' of the immortal fey) drove the giants out, and in so doing they disrupted the nature of the place, and it turned into a desert. Before it could all wither and die, however, the Fey (and probably a number of other Gods of Arborea) tried to save what they could, and using Faerie as an 'anchor' (in much the same way Ravenloft anchored and then created the Domains of Dread around itself), they set it adrift in the Aethers. In time, the Feywild grew around it. So in much the same way that domains in Ravenloft have 'mirror images' elsewhere on other worlds, the Feywild became the distorted mirror of what Mithardir once was (and why its physics is so once - its still unstable because of the nature of its creation). Those parts that were salvaged and became The Feywild included the last of the giant realms that would not yield - those of the Fomorians. Most other giants just relocated to jotunheim as per their deal with the Seldarine. Most folks think of Fomorians as terrible monsters, but perhaps they are merely 'terrorists' - a group of people who's homeland has been usurped, and they want it returned back to the way it once was (maybe even go back to its place in Arboria, where the deserts of Mithardir lie?) I guess that makes the other giants who left 'refugees'.

Applied to FR (giant) lore, maybe Annam tried to reestablish the 'Kingdom of the Giants' in Faerūn, after he left the original giantish homeland. Right around the time the Elves cast their (time-altering) High-Magic ritual and created Evermeet, they inadvertently created a magical feedback that opened-up a blackhole-like vortex, sucking Tintageer - and maybe a bunch of other things by accident, like GIANTS - into the Realms. So they created Evermeet by destroying Tintageer, but also drew the Giants into Toril, where they ran into their ancient nemesis, the dragons (which, coincidentally, had arrived some time earlier, which was the harbinger of the Sylvan Elves arrival on Toril, before the High Elves arrived from doomed Tintageer. So dragons may have arrived with the first Sundering, and Giants may have arrived in a connected event, when the elves taped into the sundering to retroactively create Evermeet in the past.

And so, the Sundering may be something like 'ripples in a pond'. The first one was HUGE - when the giant 'boulder' of the Godswar/Shattering first hit the pond, and there are still smaller ripples every so often, which 'resets' even more stuff (because its a time-distortion effect - the ripples are like aftershocks in a time-quake). Reality shifts a little bit each time a new ripple passes us by (so yeah, I just explained-away inconsistencies between editions, etc, in-game). The elves basically setup a resonating paradox (and yes, I AM just making stuff up at this point... its called FICTION).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Jul 2017 06:28:53
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  06:33:38  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

For some reason though, I seem to remember having discussions about the Sundering being related to the Elven Sundering. It was in the midst of the time the developers were talking about Ao reforging the Tablets of Fate, and describing the event in broad details.

In the "Scribe's Gatherings" area of the main Candlekeep site, right down the bottom there's a link to Erik Scott de Bie's take on the Sundering, taken from around it was announced. In it he describes the elves that wrought the elven Sundering having visions into the past and the future, seeing the past sundering of Abeir and Toril and then the re-sundering in the future. Maybe this is what you mean? It has quite a few designers named as being involved in the theory, but also gives the warning that the concept is in flux, and has not yet become official lore. That said, it doesn't contradict any official lore since created, so it seems fine to assume it's canonish. However, ultimately the only link is that the elven Sundering grants a vision of similar events in the past and future - it doesn't say that the elven Sundering in any way caused these events.
quote:
That may be the easiest way to handle it, I suppose. ...but where did the various sub-races of Elves come from if that is the case?


I'm far from an elven expert, and I haven't given this that much thought yet, but I don't think my take on the 4e eladrin necessarily contradicts any of the sub-race stuff. So we have various elven sub-races on Faerie (eladrin versions of green, dark, silver, gold, and aquatic elves at least). Green eladrin migrate to Toril first, they become the green elves (I forget where dark elves fit into the picture, but I assume they're shortly after this). Then later after Tintageer is destroyed we get a migration of gold eladrin and one silver eladrin, they become the gold and silver elves. Still later we get a migration of aquatic eladrin who become the aquatic elves. The copper elves I've never fully understood, but I sold them internally as elves that turned entirely from the Faerie-style life of their peers in the wake of the Crown Wars and returned to living in the ancient way of ye olde Seldarine. Because of this forsaking of the Faerie way they became the copper elves (which is how elves appeared prior to their travelling to Faerie from their original home, in my headcanon).

So in short, the eladrin are those with the strongest ties to Faerie (within a few generations at most), most of the elven races are those who have lost most of their ties to Faerie by living on Toril for generations, and the copper elves are those elves that have entirely renounced their connection to Faerie.

However, all the while there remain eladrin of all types on the home world of Faerie, spreading into the Plane of Faerie and its closest part to the mortal worlds, the Feywild. When the Spellplague brings the Feywild even closer than before, eladrin there find it easier to travel over. Thus, we have gold eladrin and silver eladrin arriving in Toril shortly after the Spellplague.

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Aldrick
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Okay, I found it. I found the discussion of the Sundering, where it is described in detail.

It is this video. The entire first 12 minutes is devoted to telling us what the Sundering is and why it is happening.

I misremembered some stuff... perhaps one of the biggest things I forgot was the fact that there were not two Sunderings, but three... They count three Sunderings for the Realms: The Tearfall, the Elven Sundering, and the Sundering for 5th Edition.

It seems, based on the discussion, that the Elves may be responsible for all three. When they did their Sundering it, as is frequently discussed, "rippled forward and backward through time." So, I guess it rippled backward to create the Tearfall, and it rippled forward to create another Sundering of 5th Edition.

This has some unsettling implications. Perhaps one of the largest is that the timeline we see is not the original timeline for the Realms. If the Elven Sundering rippled backward in time and caused the Tearfall, then it altered the course of history, meaning that everything that came after is radically altered. I mean, they basically nuked the planet with an ice moon...

This means that the High Mages who began the ritual and ultimately died to complete it, began the ritual in a completely different timeline. This also means that the reasons for doing it in the first place are obscured because what people "remember" about the event is what is true for this timeline, not the original one.
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Aldrick
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Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  07:00:55  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT:
It took me so long to type all of this, there are about a dozen new posts now! I was responding to what CorellonsDevout said about Elven High Magic above (and then went off on my usual myriad tangents).



Don't feel bad. It happened to me as well.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I still go with Ancient Fey High Magic (which should be what Elven High Magic is based on - the language of it is called HamaFae) was temporal in nature. It literally used the Butterfly Effect, causing some minor thing to occur back in time, in order to create a much larger outcome in the current time-period, that would accomplish the Elves' goals (its almost like using wishes - unless you are trying to be extremely specific, you can get some pretty wild and catastrophic results - typical "Monkey's Paw" scenario, which we see all the time when Elves decide to do something drastic with their High Magic).

The creation of Evermeet accidentally 'tapped into' the Sundering itself, and the repercussions of that (probably) were the destruction of Tintageer (in Faerie). The elves were unused to Toril's Weave, which super-charges any magic, and thats why they have so much trouble using Elven High Magic in Faerūn. Things 'get out of hand' rapidly, usually with unforeseen (and highly destructive) consequences. Its the equivalent of using a Nuke to blow-open a bank vault.

The Feywild (which probably only got that name after the Fey arrived there) is a highly malleable plane, with imprecise physics (including time-flow), so the fey Magic worked well there (the plane is literally designed to 'bend' around perceptions and magic, so you don't 'break' anything by casting those types of temporal-twisting magics). Going from that to Toril - an anarchistic set of physics with no true set of laws to govern it, to a world where there is not only stratified and inviolate RW physics, but also an 'Arcane Weave' with its own set of rules, that 'boosts' all forms of magic that are cast through it, must have been quite a shock for them (and at first they would have loved the Weave, not realizing with 'structure' comes inter-connectivity... like dominoes. Knock one down and you could lose the whole thing).


I really love this and it makes SO MUCH sense. It would explain why High Elven Magic often backfires so horribly. It is not suitable for the mortal world, and it is designed to be used in the Feywild.

This would explain so much about High Elven Magic, honestly.
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  07:13:40  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I watched the video, and similarly to the Erik Scott De Bie piece, it only describes the elven seer Elliandreth of Orishaar present at the elven sundering seeing the other two events, and that Elliandreth feels those events are similar to what is happening where he is. Neither piece implies causation.

In fact, my takeaway from the language of both pieces is that the the Tearfall and Sundering of the 1480s were NOT related to the elven Sundering at all - Elliandreth of Orishaar merely witnessed them due to the powerful ripples in time caused by the elven Sundering. Seeing these events and feeling that they were similar to his own, he called them Sunderings.

Also, saying that the Elven Sundering caused the other two Sunderings takes all the agency out of the rest of the stories. The batrachi's and Asgoroth's roles in the Tearfall are merely caused by the elves. The Tablets of Fate chaos of the Era of Upheaval, starting in the Avatar Crisis and resulting in the 1480s Sundering is merely caused by the elves. This goes against what they're saying in the video, most of which is about Ao and the Tablets of Fate, which are in no way related to the elven sundering.

My 2p.

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 16 Jul 2017 07:16:45
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Adhriva
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Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  08:09:18  Show Profile  Visit Adhriva's Homepage  Send Adhriva an AOL message  Send Adhriva a Yahoo! Message Send Adhriva a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree, Mark laid out a really good theory on High Elven Magic. I have only a single speculation to add to it: there's an argument to be made that the rituals themselves are alive. From magic such as the Waymeet to Mythals, we see the magic grows and evolves on it's own. Even containing sentience - although that's usually handwaved as being a cool magical effect, like a responsive app on a smart phone. With High magic, we see it ages, it changes, and it can continue spreading/growing. One reason Elves, when they learn the art, have to relearn everything from the ground up in a very nature observational discourse, could very well be because they are dealing with a lifeform instead of a more mechanically-inclined process. How you command a mechanical robot is very different compared to how you instruct an organic person. One of the reasons we could see these ripples is events such as their birth, death, and perhaps even growing pains....or other causes. Given the nature of Elves and Fey....I don't think it's that far fetched to see these rituals as alive, or atleast having life-like qualities. The implications are that most living beings will fight for their own survival and can often communicate with others of their kind (which would also explain the visions linking other, similar magical events).

The final book in the series details Shar trying to get the Mythal to become the new Goddess of Magic. That confounded me for the longest time. Why a single mythal would allow that now, as opposed to long before when they were everywhere. I suspect it's an attack on one of these lifeforms in a way. Shar has previously created (or tried to claim mimicry) a shadow weave that mirror's Mystras. If she can grab one or more of these to anchor to her shadow weave then it might be a solid gateway to the development of a Shadow weave equivalent of Elven High Magic. With the displacement of time, any potential Ritual would have to still be around to be useful and strong enough to to consolidate that power before Ao finished with the tablets. This makes one of the last and oldest Mythals, and one that has recovered it's strength 100 years ago, a very sweet target for the dark Goddess. It also parallels, albeit for no direct character presented, the narrative of a descent into the underworld often found in the kind of mythology the realms love to draw from. I bring this up because when I read the SUNDERING series, my impression was of backwards kick through time. A shockwave starting from the end moving to the beginning of the series to affect events in reverse of their normal linear flow. Maybe that's just due to the loose way the stories were all connected with the prophecy, but a retroactive defense by such an entity, including its cry for help to others like it in the world, would certainly jumpstart the distortion of the realms. I don't see Ao caring enough about the prime world of Toril to change much of it directly. The Gods thereof, yes. The world and the people of Toril....far less so. But entities of magic would and do - all the time. An entity of high magic wouldn't think twice about distorting reality and time, especially one whose nature causes those distortions, when trying to save it's own metaphorical skin.

Just my 2 copper pieces. Any further down the rabbit-hole of speculation and we might need to break out the +1 tinfoil hats.

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Edited by - Adhriva on 16 Jul 2017 08:12:42
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

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Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  08:28:35  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Also, saying that the Elven Sundering caused the other two Sunderings takes all the agency out of the rest of the stories. The batrachi's and Asgoroth's roles in the Tearfall are merely caused by the elves. The Tablets of Fate chaos of the Era of Upheaval, starting in the Avatar Crisis and resulting in the 1480s Sundering is merely caused by the elves. This goes against what they're saying in the video, most of which is about Ao and the Tablets of Fate, which are in no way related to the elven sundering.


I agree 100%. It does take all of the agency out of everything that happened between the Tearfall and the 5th Edition Sundering. That includes the agency of Ao. That is one of the problems I have with it, too.

However, I think it is important to return to the canon here.

From Grand History of the Realms:
quote:
c. –17600 DR
The Sundering:
Hundreds of High Mages assemble in the heartland of Faerūn at the Gathering Place. Ignoring the lesson learned from the destruction of Tintageer centuries earlier, they cast a spell of elven High Magic designed to create a glorious elf homeland. On the Day of Birthing, the magic reaches its apex as the spell extends both back and forward in the mists of time. Faerūn, the one land, is sundered apart by the unbridled force of the Sundering. As a result, hundreds of cities are washed away, thousands of elves lie dead, and the face of Toril is changed forever. The name Faerūn, no longer the One Land, is given to the largest continent. Surrounded by vast expanses of water, the island of Evermeet, thought to be a piece of Arvandor and a bridge between worlds, breaks the surface of the Trackless Sea. Blessed by the goddess Angharradh, verdant forests and wildlife soon flourish across the island. Corellon Larethian wards Evermeet against Lolth, Malar, and the other powers of the anti-Seldarine and entrusts a unique seed to the Fair Folk of the isle. The seed soon sprouts, growing into a miniature tree known as the Tree of Souls. Over time, the souls of ancient elves who choose to stay on Toril, rather than pass on to Arvandor, merge into the Tree of Souls, slowly augmenting its power. Prophecies reveal that the Tree of Souls will someday be planted on Faerūn when the Fair Folk finally return to the mainland after a period of exile on the Green Isle.


Granted, it is somewhat ambiguous. However, the line, "the spell extends both back and forward in the mists of time," seems to imply more than someone foresaw the other two Sunderings. It seems to imply that time itself has somehow been altered. And of course, the Elven Sundering is in the middle of two other sunderings--one in the past and one in the future. Hence, stretching backward and forward in time. It is possible that Elliandreth sees the event because the Sundering that the Elves cause creates them.

That being said, I do not think it was the intention of the designers to play around with time paradoxes. I just believe it may be an unfortunate implication of the lore, lol. As in, no one really stopped to think about how screwing with time like that might have unfortunate implications.

======

In fact, I went back to watch the video again. The spell, even there, is described as rippling forward and back through time. Rippling is the exact word used. It seems to me that these ripples are what allowed Elliandreth to see these other Sunderings. Why else would he see these Sunderings if they were not connected to the one he was currently experiencing?

Granted, like in the canon quoted above, it is not explicit. However, in both instances, it seems to heavily imply that the Elven High Magic altered time--hence all the rippling back and forth.

It is also, to the best of my knowledge, the widely held belief that the Elven Sundering did alter time. That was the always the operating assumption that I had, dating back long before 5th Edition. We just did not know -HOW- it altered time until 5th Edition, and once we see how it altered time... there are all sorts of unfortunate implications, like the one you outlined, lol.

It just seems odd to me that this interpretation of the Elven Sundering would change, and seems more likely that this character in question is seeing two similar events that are directly related to what he is currently experiencing. (Which is why he would see them in the first place.)

I don't want to run away from any unfortunate implications just because I do not like them.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4923 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  08:38:55  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

And yeah, intersting, George. Any chance you could share it with us?



It's not mine to share unfortunately.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
788 Posts

Posted - 16 Jul 2017 :  08:44:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I was just checking some of the Planescape referecnes, and I am thinking that before the Fey entered the feywild (and created Faerie), it was probably a ginat-Realm, and maybe even the original Jotunheim.


If we go by 4e creation myths, both the Feywild and the Shadowfell were populated at first by giants (titans in 4e), because, when those realms were created, as "echoes" of the material plane, they copied the first inhabitants of the material: the servants of the primordials (the titans and giants).

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Okay, I found it. I found the discussion of the Sundering, where it is described in detail.

It is this video. The entire first 12 minutes is devoted to telling us what the Sundering is and why it is happening.



Ironic they (indirectly) created the race that was their most fearsome enemies in the ancient age: the dragons.

They also destroyed the whole world... at last, I understand why some people say elves are the real evil ones of the Realms.

Totally unrelated, but I understood most of that video without subtitles... my english is improving, it seems

quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva

Even containing sentience - although that's usually handwaved as being a cool magical effect, like a responsive app on a smart phone.



This is what they call "the lurking regard", right?

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Also, saying that the Elven Sundering caused the other two Sunderings takes all the agency out of the rest of the stories. The batrachi's and Asgoroth's roles in the Tearfall are merely caused by the elves. The Tablets of Fate chaos of the Era of Upheaval, starting in the Avatar Crisis and resulting in the 1480s Sundering is merely caused by the elves. This goes against what they're saying in the video, most of which is about Ao and the Tablets of Fate, which are in no way related to the elven sundering.



I wouldn't say the elves created the Original Sundering (the Tearfall) or the Second Sundering. However, by creating their Sundering they did changed the timeline, allowing those Sunderings to happen in the first place.

Maybe their creation of Evermeet weakened planar boundaries in the past, allowing the batrachi to summon primordials bound by the gods in the Dawn War, indirectly causing the liberation of Asgoroth and the subsequent Tearfall.

Maybe it also caused some malfunction in the future, allowing Bane and Myrkul to get the Tablets of Fate (that I find weird those gods just found the Tablets by luck), starting the whole Age of Upheaval that ended in the Second Sundering.

Hence, the past and future Sunderings can be indirect consecuences of the First (elven) one.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 16 Jul 2017 09:08:46
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