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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  19:44:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've no idea what the point of that last post is. It indicates that you're okay with allowing gaps to be filled in, but your post before that indicates that you won't do this thing you proposed if it means letting people play in the lost century.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Jul 2017 19:45:56
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  22:09:07  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've no idea what the point of that last post is. It indicates that you're okay with allowing gaps to be filled in, but your post before that indicates that you won't do this thing you proposed if it means letting people play in the lost century.



That is not what I said at all. As I said, I feel that this conversation is becoming circular.

The post you were referring too was my personal preferences, as in--***I*** specifically have no interest in writing in the 100 year lore gap created by WotC. As to my personal reasons for that, people can go re-read my previous posts.

That was not me saying that ***OTHER PEOPLE*** cannot fill in whatever time gap that they wanted. As I have said repeatedly...

quote:
...and I think it is perfectly fine for people who want to do that--there is nothing wrong with adding additional details to the setting or filling in the gaps.


quote:
If someone does not want to play in the Candlekanon era, that is fine, the CK Wiki is still a useful resource to them for ideas and inspiration. People may set their Realms during the time of Netheril, for example, and add fan lore for that era. People may want to ignore the Spellplague and other such events, and post their lore for that era. People may want to play in the 4E / 5E era, and post their lore for that era.


quote:
What BadCatMan proposed: Accept ALL canon (current and future), and just move the Candlekanon timeline forward far enough that WotC will never publish anything that will contradict it. This way people can play in whatever era they want, it is backward compatible with the FRW, and people who hate or dislike something about the Realms can choose to ignore it since the Candlekanon will be far beyond all the RSE nonsense.


...I could go on, but that gets my point across.

I intentionally avoided bringing up my own personal feelings into the matter originally, because I felt that it could unjustly bias people against the proposal. Mostly, because I am strongly opposed to the RSE's--primarily those starting with the ToT and moving through the 3E Era.

However, you attacked me personally and impugned my motives many times throughout this thread. You accused me of having a hostile bias against people who liked 4th Edition, which is false. You accused me of trying to toss out 4th Edition fans and new players, and a whole slew of other things. You, whether intentionally or not, mislead, misled, and misjudged what I have written repeatedly. This has led to me becoming rather frustrated, which KanzenAU sensed in my writing. This is another reason that I decided to lay my personal feelings on the matter on the table, to try and insulate myself against the types of false accusations that you have made.

At this point, the majority of people who have voted actually favor the original proposal, which avoids the time jump. I embraced the proposal of BadCatMan, because I hoped that it might be more amenable to the people who did not like the original proposal. There are pro's and con's to everything--everything has an opportunity cost associated with it. I am open minded, I simply wanted a fair compromise that found a way to bridge the divide between people who liked different editions.

I always knew and expected that there would be strong opinions here. The edition wars is a sore spot for all of us who have gone through them. However, when I made the thread I was hoping for people who did not like the idea to propose alternative solutions. We could have then discussed the pro's and con's of going this way or that way, and could have had an honest debate about the way forward, and eventually come to a consensus.

Instead, what we got from you Wooly, was a hostile ultimatum immediately out of the gate:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If I was participating in this, I'd be damned uncomfortable leaving people like Diffan and other post-3E fans out in the cold. I WILL NOT support anything that divides us by the era(s) we like.


quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Also, you need to think of who your target audience is. If you don't want to include newcomers to the Realms, that's your call -- and it's one I won't support in any way. You do that, I'll not even publicly acknowledge the existence of your site, much less direct people your way.


Having started the discussion in this hostile manner, you tainted everything that followed, and our discussion grew more heated. Primarily, because I felt insulted by your false accusations.

My goal was never to divide people by eras. It was to try and find some sort of middle ground compromise on a community project. However, after having this discussion, I cannot for the life of me imagine enjoying--as a hobby--working with you.

So, I am sitting here and imagining a future of this project, where even if everything goes your way today, where some point in the future something happens that you do not like and you turn hostile again.

On top of that, I am rethinking my support for the time jump post-current FR canon. The reason is largely because of the reasons BadCatMan laid out in his post. Basically, due to such a large time jump we would be rewriting the Realms from scratch, essentially. ...and if I am going to sign up for that much work, why do I want to do that for the Realms? What am I really, on a personal level, getting out of this?

In the beginning, I thought it would be a way for me to preserve my Realms knowledge, and recapture the things that I loved about the setting. It would have also given me the opportunity to build something alongside the community. But this entire discussion has made me realize that all we are doing is re-opening old edition war wounds, and I would be in a position where I would have to deal with situations like this on a semi-regular basis.

So, in my mind, at this point, the benefits of doing this no longer outweigh the costs. The CKW can be used as a place for people to chunk their homebrew stuff to keep it off the FRW, it is unlikely anyone will read it, and like all unsupported settings, the community--including the folks here on this forum--will eventually fade away as everyone migrates to different projects and settings.

I suppose we should just make peace with this reality and move on with our lives. Everyone will probably be happier in the end, because the alternative is to end up in the hostile and nasty place we were years ago. I mean, you know as well as I do--look around this place. How many old scribes are still left? Do you remember how active Candlekeep used to be? Look at it now. Imagine what it will look like in fifteen years. That's the future.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  22:13:09  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i like the idea (mostly because i was already doing it but using wordpress), but im only doing it up to 1370s DR and ill be remaking it so the world makes sense (without daft bits that Ed would never have done). Its just going to be my vision that i can play in but people can look at (and play in too if they want).

Id encourage everyone to do something similar. If we cant all cooperate we can at least give people a window into the world we create from Ed Greenwoods fantastic base.

Then if others want to run in a world they have plenty to choose from and they can help contribute if they want (and are allowed, but its someones world with a single vision so it should be more cohesive).

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  00:08:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I love the idea. I don't have time. I wish I could win the lottery, and I'd make it a focus for my life. As it stands now, I'm writing my little piece for my own enjoyment that expands small pockets. Eventually I'll put it out for others, and I expect half the people will hate it. But some will enjoy it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  00:21:01  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I love the idea. I don't have time. I wish I could win the lottery, and I'd make it a focus for my life. As it stands now, I'm writing my little piece for my own enjoyment that expands small pockets. Eventually I'll put it out for others, and I expect half the people will hate it. But some will enjoy it.



I hear ya. There aren't enough hours in the day for all my interests/obsessions lol.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  00:28:19  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do like the idea, however I have a question: Why to deal with the Realms pre-ToT? For what I've read here, the general consensus is that that period is good written, and have no continuity problems. The problems start in the post-ToT Realms.

I'd like to help, but I will only help with 4e stuff, for two major reasons:

1. And the main one: I started to play the Realms in the final year of 3.5. So, I'm lightly familiar with the 3.5 Realms (I only own a few books of the time, and none of the novels), and really familiar with 4e Realms (mainly sourcebooks, but I do own a few novels as well). And since many here are pretty familiar with the 3.5 Realms, I'm going with the 4e ones, that maybe will be lacking people.

2. Seeing the hate 4e has, I would like to put a 4e perspective in the project. So, the pre- and post-Spellplague Realms is the area I would like to help.

Obviously, if this project is going to happen (that seeing what the latest post are implying...)

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Jul 2017 00:38:38
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Imrathil
Acolyte

Greece
12 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  00:43:48  Show Profile Send Imrathil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm fully with Aldrick

Have to confess, that im an old member here but rarely post. I am doing so now cause I do feel that the Realms are dying - if not dead already. I for one am aware of the severity of situation.

Reading through these 3 pages, I see people suggesting that we should be forced to accept even stuff that the majority of the community "gracefully" ignores, and on the other hand Aldrick is suggesting that the community, having being divided by Wizard's mistreatment of the Realms for so long, can at last vote and freely decide what we wanna keep and how we want to proceed.

We have been getting stuff down our throats from Wizbro, we don't want the same from this project or the community. Thanks but no thanks. You mention inclusiveness but this one-sided. The point here is for the community to vote and decide together so we can at last move on (the timeline) together. Now THAT is inclusiveness.

I'm sorry but I couldn't stand with ultimatums from any side, so I'm voting for the stages as suggested in the OP

Also, can you please try to accept and support an effort to keep the Realms alive, instead of hanging in the back seat, judging harshly, being absolute and shooting down other people's good-willed efforts?

"Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name"

-- Icelander
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  01:32:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And so this goes the way this always goes... {sigh}
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

You will never, EVER get a 'consensus' on which parts to keep, and which to throw away. We've had that problem around here for years. This is why I cleave to canon, and work around the inconsistencies (and stuff I out-right hate). Its the only way to create material that will be acceptable by EVERYONE.

Like I said...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jul 2017 01:34:02
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  03:31:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aldrick and Imrathil: It's hardly an ultimatum for one person to say they won't support something, especially when they also say they're not going act against something. Is my approval really somehow central to this project?

Now, I'm being accused of false accusations, simply because I say we shouldn't be leaving people out. Where do I come up with this idea that people are being left out? Well, let's see...

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick


Stage 3: Complete Candlekanan
In this final stage the timeline begins to advance forward beyond 1380 DR in a set fashion (perhaps one in game year for one real life year as this was roughly the normal pace of canon prior to 4th Edition). Everything after this point becomes complete Candlekanan and should be considered a complete deviation from the Realms canon. This means that the events of the Spellplague and other such things will not happen unless people vote it into existence.


So people that like the changes to the Realms after 1380 are told these things will not be included unless the majority chooses it. These people are, therefore, likely to be left out -- and that's if they even felt like participating after being brushed to the side like that, to begin with.

Further:
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

The only real alternative is to force the canonization of all things 4th Edition, and that will never fly.



A statement that 4E changes will not be included.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

There is also no real filling in the gaps of the 100 year time jump. What are you filling in, exactly? What would you add that would not immediately get swept away with the Sundering?


A statement that a wide-open time period shouldn't be included.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I do not like the idea of setting stuff in the time gap.


Again, a statement against the inclusion of a wide-open time period.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

However, you are correct in that I have no interest in filling in that time gap. If you want my most honest opinion, it is that I hate most of the post-ToT lore, mostly as a result of the RSE's. I also think a lot of the stuff written into the canon is cheesy and ridiculous, especially during the 2E Era. Most of my enjoyment of the Realmslore revolves around the deities and the history.

So, for me, I view filling in the 3E to 4E gap as being an unpaid lore grunt for WotC. It would force me to acknowledge everything that I hate and despise, without the ability to object, without the ability to offer alternatives, without the ability to modify, and--failing all those things--the ability to smooth out the rougher edges and deal with the implications of the RSE events.

On top of it all, it would shackle me to WotC's canon.


Another statement that published canon past a certain point is not going to be included. How this isn't leaving people that like that published canon out is beyond me.

The thing that is most remarkable to me is that I am being attacked and accused of lying when I'm reading the exact words that you wrote. It is almost as remarkable to me that we are fighting over who is going to be allowed to participate. Somehow, I am the bad guy for looking at all this stuff saying you want to leave out published canon and suggesting we include it so that we don't leave out people that would prefer to write for later eras. I am, apparently, some sort of evil monster for suggesting that we include stuff I personally dislike so that more people can participate.

The final and most ironic part of this whole discussion:

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

How many old scribes are still left? Do you remember how active Candlekeep used to be? Look at it now. Imagine what it will look like in fifteen years. That's the future.


Old scribes -- the bulk of whom, including myself, prefer the Realms as it was before the changes of 4E. Who are the new scribes? People that have come into the Realms since then -- people you are trying to exclude by disallowing them to do anything for the era of Realmslore they know the most about.

Look, I'm sorry that you feel that I'm ruining this for you. But I'm not going to sit back and be accused of lying and such when I'm taking your repeated statements at face value. And I'm not going to sit back and pretend I think it's a good idea to willfully segregate Realms fans and then speak of community.

My support of this project remains contingent on allowing ALL fans of the Realms to participate in whatever way they want. If this is an ultimatum and is a dealbreaker for you, so be it.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  05:33:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm in the same boat. I dislike a bunch of the 2e lore. I dislike some of the 3e lore. I can't really say I dislike all of the 4e lore, because there are quite a few 'juicy bits' I like to pilfer, but as a whole, 4e is pretty ugly. Of late, I like re-spinning quite a bit of it (if you haven't noticed), so as to not violate canon, so much as bend it into something more palatable. 5e, so far, I have no problem with. Apparently, all canon from every past edition is now 5e canon... even if the canon disagrees with each other (the one upside of the 'lore lite' approach is that THEY don't have to explain those inconsistencies, which means we get to pick & choose what is the correct version for our personal Realms).

My point is, that although there are parts of each edition I don't care for - and whole swaths of 2e and 4e I absolutely hate - I work around it, all the time, and am constantly building off all of it.... because its the only 'common ground' we all have.

The problem here is that I think some folk think their version is the 'right version', and are subconsciously thinking others have the exact same thing in mind. We don't. It took me awhile to realize that as well - I use to call for a reboot when 5e was first announced. That they should restart the setting at 1e all over again, and then keep the same basic continuity, unless over-written by newer lore. I thought that was the perfect solution. It would allow us to go back in and correct all the crap that has been building up for years. And, of course, I was thinking we'd all want the same bits altered... and I was taught otherwise by a bunch of people here. What I thought should be the 'correct' Realms wasn't anyone else's idea of it, and no two people are going to agree on what should stay and what should go (parts yes, but not whole-cloth).

My version was only going to be 'perfect' to me, not anyone else. It was actually hard for me to accept that, but I finally did. There are some pretty smart folks around here. So, at the end of the day, that means a project like this can only work if ALL CANON is still considered canon, so that each person's version can still work within the greater framework. You know the song, "Breakfast at Tiffany's"? Its kinda like that. None of us fully agrees with any of the rest of us, but we all agree we like The Forgotten Realms. Thats the one thing we got.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jul 2017 15:50:39
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  06:03:25  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol now that song is going through my head. Thanks, Markustay . I see your point and agree with you, however. My fear from the beginning was that there would be disagreements among those who did get involved in the project. I was (and still am), willing to give it a try, but what I want could differ from what others want, and vice versa.

I want to understand th project and help get it worked out, but I am worried about the clash. I wasn't going to say anything until the project got under way, but it was in the back of my mind. I was hoping compromise would fix that (and maybe it would). We are all passionate about the Realms, and we are passionate about canon (whether it's canon we like or hate, because otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation). But what we like and don't like, and what we want and don't want, differ.

I have thought about this over the past couple days, especially with the turn this has taken. I mean, there is already arguing. No matter what direction the project takes, there could be fighting.

Unless we treated it somewhat like the DMsGuild, but with a little more content freedom. For instance, IIRC, the Guild doesn't currently allow short stories or novellas (unless you're Ed lol), but maybe we could allow that, if folks wanted.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Jul 2017 06:04:03
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  06:32:36  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I realised a few years back, likely more than a few years, that creating in a shared world is hard work. If you want to conform to "what has gone before", the process always involved bending and re-casting your great ideas to fit the framework. Coupled with that was the issue of copying (consciously or unconsciously) the work of others. In my favored areas of interest (the Unapproachable East, history of the Realms in general and just lately, languages of the Realms) I realised that I had a singular vision of what I thought was "right" and what "fit". Naturally, that wasn't the case at all, but sometimes if you get in first, your idea/voice carries the day. I've been very fortunate in that regard because for many of my ideas I managed to "get in first". But my first ever big FR project regarding the Fallen Kingdom (which ultimately culminated in my North Timeline) showed me just how hard it can be when you are trying to collaborate on a project and there are differences in approach, ideas and ... what was "right". Since that time, I've pretty much been a one man band of FR output save for a few collaborations with Eric Boyd who, thankfully, I was almost always on the same wavelength with. Projects like this are extremely difficult to pull off given the creative input required. It's like getting 10 people to start painting the Sistine Chapel from all around the edges moving inwards. The result could be awesome, but chances are it won't. That's not to say that endeavours of this type can't succeed, but in my view they require significant focus and to operate on a much smaller scale. As I read this thread, all I could see in my head was the invasion of Russia. Starting out narrow and then rapidly expanding in scope until ... disaster. In my opinion, for what it's worth, the lofty goal of re-writing the entire setting is unachievable from a group of well-meaning amateurs, living normal lives with families, jobs, other commitments etc and who are essentially strangers. And if you want my advice, for what that's worth, start small. Pick a topic. Gods, magic, the Weave, the history of cosmetics in Impiltur (oops, sorry that's already been done) and focus on that and get it done. Then move onto something else. Incremental results are the most achievable in this type of a project. Grognard out.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 12 Jul 2017 08:38:15
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  06:45:43  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly Rupert -

Okay, I took the time to read your post, walked away, thought about what you wrote, and then came back. Maybe it is the medium in which we are having the conversation, but your first two posts in this thread came off to me as exceptionally hostile. I read what you wrote as giving an ultimatum, as I said. Although you did not out-and-out say it, I felt what you wrote implied that you would go out of your way to actively sabotage or undermine the project in some way. In other words, were the project brought up on the forums, you would actively show up in threads to disparage participation and the like.

However, let's set that aside because it is not the main issue here.

The main issue here is that I do not think you understand what I proposed. My goal, from the first thread that I posted on the idea, to this moment was to set up a system in which people voted on what to include and what not to include. The purpose of voting is to build consensus.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So people that like the changes to the Realms after 1380 are told these things will not be included unless the majority chooses it.


...and that was exactly my intention. However, what you did not seem to understand is that the same is true for literally everything in my original proposal. For example, in stage one, because the lore for the Giants in the Realms is a huge mess conically--especially as it relates to the timeline--someone might re-write it. The ideal solution to this problem would be to put some meat on the bones of that lore, move some dates around in the canon history, and basically try and make what was presented work.

In stage two, literally, every RSE from the Time of Troubles onward was being placed on the table. People who wanted to support the ToT could propose it. People could discuss alterations to the events. People could discuss ditching the concept altogether. All of these things are on the table.

The ultimate goal I had in mind in doing this was to try and smooth things out. Like, for example, if people wanted to support the return of the Elves to Myth Drannor, we need to discuss how silly that looks when the height of the Retreat begins just 20 years earlier. So, literally, within the canon timeline the Elves are all leaving for Evermeet... and in just two decades time turn around and come right back. So, people can discuss this RSE and offer their thoughts and opinions. Maybe --some-- of the Elves return and reclaim Myth Drannor, and they do not plant the Tree of Souls. If we allow the Tree of Souls to be planted in our canon then we need to discuss the implications of planting the tree.

As a result, by the time we reach the third stage, ideally, all of the canon problems presented in the established lore will be sorted out. We avoid silly situations where Zhentil Keep gets destroyed, and then within less than five years it is completely rebuilt and fielding armies again as if nothing happened. The goal was to try to have all of that stuff make sense.

The reason I suggested stopping at 1380 DR or thereabouts was the time jump. As I said to you previously, the time jump is a major problem. It is a problem because it makes all of the previous lore outdated. This is the entire reason that the conversation about 'filling in the 100 year time gap' happened. The time jump, from the perspective of WotC, was a soft reboot of the Realms. They did the time jump to deliberately invalidate the old lore and to, as they said at the time, 'create space to tell more stories.' They needed all that new space because they were nuking the setting left and right. 4th Edition was a direct result, and a necessary outcome, of all the RSE's they were having throughout 3rd Edition.

However, around this point, BatCatMan comes along and makes an alternative proposal. There were pro's and con's to his proposal, just as they were to mine. Every decision we make has an opportunity cost associated with it. I took his proposal and put it to everyone, hoping that it might be something that would further bridge the divide.

After all, I felt that your concerns were legitimate. I also considered those same things before I made the original post. It was the reason that throughout the original post I was trying to point out ways that 4th Edition stuff could be incorporated. I wanted to give everyone the opportunity to propose things that they liked about the setting, and not feel shut out because of the edition that they choose to play in or were first introduced too.

However, one of the con's of BatCatMan's proposal would be that we would have to acknowledge all the canon stuff that we do not like--that includes the 4th Edition stuff, which as you know the majority here dislike. When you appeared to be hostile to an additional time jump beyond WotC's canon--for the same purposes that WotC did the 4th Edition time jump, a soft reboot--that is when my frustration grew.

Because at that point, as Imrathil points out, it felt like the idea of being inclusive was one-sided at that point. People who disliked the 4th Edition changes were forced to acknowledge them, the people who hated the previous edition RSE's were forced to acknowledge them. The notion of 'writing in the 100-time gap' is unappealing to anyone who hated all the stuff that came before or after.

That is the reason that I felt holding a vote on all the RSE's and stuff was beneficial. It allowed those of us who disliked a particular RSE to vote it down or offer an alternative explanation. Failing both of those battles it allowed us to smooth things out and properly deal with the consequences of the RSE. The same is true on the other side if you liked a particular RSE and it got voted down, you had the ability to find alternative ways to add back in the elements that you enjoyed. People would win some of those battles and lose others, but at least no one could accuse it of being unfair. That is just the nature of canon, and unlike when bad things happen to the Realms from WotC, at least the people who opposed it had the opportunity to be heard and make their arguments as to why it was a bad idea.

Thus, by 1380 DR or so, the Realms would have looked similar to the canon Realms within that timeline. This means that the bulk of the published lore for the setting would still be useable, except where explicitly contradicted. We could then move forward at that point with a clean slate.

To me it seemed to be the fairest way of dealing with all of the competing interests. That is what I was trying to do in my original proposal. I felt BatCatMan's proposal offered an alternative compromise--acknowledge all the canon, but get far enough removed from it that people can ignore the stuff that they do not like.

However, the deeper issue is that no matter what is decided this could just re-open all of the old edition war wounds, as happened in our discussion. It was my naive hope that people would view this as an effort to reknit back together a community under the roof of a shared canon. I knew some people would not like the outcome, no matter what was decided, but it was my hope at least people would both respect and accept the outcome since it was put to a vote.

...but of course, that did not happen.

I hope now that the misunderstandings have been cleared up between us.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  07:27:50  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Taking into account the posts by Markustay, CorellonsDevout, and George Krashos...

What is the best path forward for us as a community? What is the best use of the Candlekeep Wiki? What should we be doing, exactly, in your opinions?

(These questions are directed to everyone.)

I mean, no one is opposed to the idea of using the Candlekeep Wiki as a place for people to post their homebrew lore. So I do not think that is a point of contention.

So, I suppose, what we are really doing, is revisiting the idea of whether or not we want a shared unofficial canon since WotC is unlikely to really do much with the Realms in the future.

I mean, it boils down, at least in my mind, to what I said in one of my previous posts to Wooly. An unsupported setting is going to die, we have already lost a significant number of our scribes here at Candlekeep, and as the years pass we will likely lose even more. It was my hope that having a community project like an unofficial canon would keep people interested in the setting, and could even potentially grow the community. That was the intent behind my initial proposal.

Are we still on board for a community-based project, and if so how should it be structured and organized? Ignoring what anyone else would want, what is your most ideal outcome?

Alternatively, should we abandon the idea of a community-based project, and just use the Candlekeep Wiki as a place for people to post their homebrew lore?

(These questions are for everyone.)

Edited by - Aldrick on 12 Jul 2017 07:45:39
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  08:43:04  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Community project may work. Many people are more silent watchers than contributors.

Unfortunately the only thing that will save the realms is a brilliant version that satisfies most people.
Talking about it will achieve nothing because people's opinions are never swayed by words, only by actions.

So make something. If its brilliant people will use it and or get involved. Its the only way to get a consensus. Plus its fun and cathartic making something (even if its a remake of a setting, its still making something). It will probably take years and it might not be good enough for other people, but as long as its good enough for you its a job well done.


Now im off to continue making my own version where the ToT was just a rumourmill gone out of control and an over active sage that liked making fictional stories about the gods, and several power groups that tried to do away with old enemies by using the rumourmill to discredit their powerful religious allies (the churches of Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, and Mystra). Oh and a greedy caliph who captured the living vessel of the weave and tried to absorb her power thus destabilising magic for a time until she was reincarnated.
But thats just the secret plot. As far as the rest of faerun is concerned the gods walked faerun and many died and others were raised.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  09:52:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can support BadCatMan's proposal of a further timejump. I am not keen on that, but I can support that, because that idea includes everything that has gone before -- therefore accommodating all published canon and thus fans of any era. I even said it wasn't a dealbreaker for me.

But then it somehow became an issue whether or not people could fill in the lost century. And that's when tempers flared again -- when you argued against allowing that. So we were then back to my original problem: an era that could not be touched, which would leave out people who want to work in that era.

The only thing I want here, the only demand I will make, is that this project allows everyone to participate by not leaving out anything. Just as this forum welcomes any who like the Realms, regardless of their preferred era, I want your project to welcome everyone. Yes, there were always be people that don't like this thing or that thing. I just don't want to have anyone automatically shut out before they can offer anything.

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Jeff Strix
Acolyte

Germany
21 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  10:50:12  Show Profile Send Jeff Strix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am here for few years, write not much but read many topics, regularly. Well it was clear to me - to have one collective opinion in this case is as good as impossible. Thats why I think the best way is not to rewrite the past, but make the future. And I also think - there's no need to jump too far in future, although I'm not completely against it, but it would be very hard to make "completely" new realms in 1600/1700/1800-s DR or further. So, as for me - 1540/1550 would be the best - in this case we will have well recognisible realms with sons/daughters of famous characters, places, countries etc., someone wrote about it already. I don't think that WotC will come to these DR-years in next few years (or maybe many years), probably they continue to ignore straight timeline, as they do now.

Edited by - Jeff Strix on 12 Jul 2017 10:51:23
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  16:09:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Can we just write 'small bits' - stuff that can be 'Plug & Play', without worrying about when?

This is what I was planning to do anyway - I have a plethora (I love when I get to use that word!) of homebrew stuff strewn all over the place. I'd love to have one spot to dump it all. An Inn here (I actually have at least three 'waystops' - two are already written-up), a bridge there, a ruin somewhere else. All written within the existing framework, but also able to be detached from it.

For example, I have two different versions of my 'Hobgoblins in the Hordelands'. In my homebrew Realms (My Misbegotton Realms), the Hobgoblins were always there, and were always the Tuigan. I don't need to explain it (and yet, my planet - the Planet Arium - is still within the greater D&D universe, so the 'real' FR is still out there, somewhere). Then there is the other version, where I explain how one branch of the Taangan (the 3e umbrella term for ALL the tribes) - the Fankiang - were really Hobgoblins all along (they had some humans as part of their 'tribe', but the core group were Hobs). Post-3e, their power continued to grow, and they eventually launched a devastating assault on Kourmire, leveling the place and scattering the existing Tuigan. Now the 'new' Tuigan are the old Fankiang, and they've been spreading their control to the other tribes in the Wastes, and become a greater threat. They've also been interbreeding with humans (and others), creating superior 'hybrids'.

There is a group of Hobgoblins* in one of the 3e MM's that I was working towards for all of that, turning one old piece of lore (albeit a very large piece) into something else using the stuff from the MM's. Unfortunately, i have to run out the door right now, so i can't look that up. My point is, I have MY version, and then I have the more generic version of the same thing that can just be dropped into nearly anyone else's version. Maybe we can do something like that.


*EDIT
They were in 3e's MM5. I also had my 'Drummers' lore connected to them (also modular), and connected their history through some obscure references in the novels (and elsewhere) about 'Beastman tribes' in the northern areas, and also a preponderance of goblins in the Hordelands region (which makes quite a bit of sense, since I think that entire area was the ancient Fey's 'stomping grounds', and the fey have deep, primal connection to goblins).


The whole point is, as involved as all of that is/was, its in three separate (and separable) 'chunks', and could fit into any campaign, regardless of era/edition or 'canonocity'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jul 2017 19:21:27
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  17:47:35  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In some ways, the "clean slate" approach makes sense because it gives us a blank canvas to work with. But we also run the risk of alienating people with this approach. 1) because some would want to work during the 4e era (or any previous era). 2) Even with a blank slate to work with, we all have different ideas of what we want the Realms to be. I know there would be the majority vote, and everyone would do their best to compromise, but feelings are bound to be hurt. By the same token, we can let that prevent us from doing something that could potentially be beneficial.

We could also doing something like what Markustay suggested, but I seem to remember that being the original purpose of the DMsGuild (though as I mentioned in my previous post, we could allow for a little more freedom of content). This would allow people to focus on any era/aspect they want.

Or, we could move the Realms forward with 5E-onwards. This is similar to the clean slate approach, but we wouldn't be skipping several hundred years, and would allow people to work the "current" Realms. Like the clean slate approach, there would have to be a consensus to ignore past inconsistencies and aspects of previous editions we didn't like. The biggest risk here of course is that, working with such a close timeframe to the current Realms, we run the risk of having our material overwritten by WotC.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Lhynard
Acolyte

USA
33 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  02:21:15  Show Profile  Visit Lhynard's Homepage Send Lhynard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
The only thing that has kept me from becoming an active contributor is my personal lack of hardcore Wiki skills, and the fact that I have not really kept up with a lot of the canon changes post-4th Edition.

My concern has always been posting a stubby article that features out-of-date canon information.


1. We are totally happy with stubs, provided you A) aren't plagiarizing, B) provide your source(s), and C) make some effort to write coherently. (You clearly have no issues with writing.)
2. It's not really possible to have "out-of-date canon" on the FRW, if you provide a source, (which we require). If it was retconned or altered, someone else who knows a later edition will simply clarify the statement and provide an additional source.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  19:09:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I realised a few years back, likely more than a few years, that creating in a shared world is hard work. If you want to conform to "what has gone before", the process always involved bending and re-casting your great ideas to fit the framework. Coupled with that was the issue of copying (consciously or unconsciously) the work of others. In my favored areas of interest (the Unapproachable East, history of the Realms in general and just lately, languages of the Realms) I realised that I had a singular vision of what I thought was "right" and what "fit". Naturally, that wasn't the case at all, but sometimes if you get in first, your idea/voice carries the day. I've been very fortunate in that regard because for many of my ideas I managed to "get in first". But my first ever big FR project regarding the Fallen Kingdom (which ultimately culminated in my North Timeline) showed me just how hard it can be when you are trying to collaborate on a project and there are differences in approach, ideas and ... what was "right". Since that time, I've pretty much been a one man band of FR output save for a few collaborations with Eric Boyd who, thankfully, I was almost always on the same wavelength with. Projects like this are extremely difficult to pull off given the creative input required. It's like getting 10 people to start painting the Sistine Chapel from all around the edges moving inwards. The result could be awesome, but chances are it won't. That's not to say that endeavours of this type can't succeed, but in my view they require significant focus and to operate on a much smaller scale. As I read this thread, all I could see in my head was the invasion of Russia. Starting out narrow and then rapidly expanding in scope until ... disaster. In my opinion, for what it's worth, the lofty goal of re-writing the entire setting is unachievable from a group of well-meaning amateurs, living normal lives with families, jobs, other commitments etc and who are essentially strangers. And if you want my advice, for what that's worth, start small. Pick a topic. Gods, magic, the Weave, the history of cosmetics in Impiltur (oops, sorry that's already been done) and focus on that and get it done. Then move onto something else. Incremental results are the most achievable in this type of a project. Grognard out.

-- George Krashos



Agreed. I started out wanting to "redo Thay to fix it", because I quite frankly used to have a love of the place years ago (a love which has softened with time). Then I realized.... its broken... it will never be the same, and whatever you do won't be accepted. So then I decided to do my United Tharchs and just basically build small sections off in the nooks and crannies of the realms that accomplish the same goal, but with some different spins. That has grown and my life responsibilities are getting in the way.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  19:30:03  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted "No" on the initial poll after reading through everything, because my sentiments regarding this subject are similar to Wooly's & Markustay's...

No matter what my personal judgments on any part of the established canon, I think we should build on it, not exclude it...

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2285 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  03:49:39  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
why do we jsut exclude it all and make our own setting... and get it published...


why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  22:07:33  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, it's been a week since the previous poll--the one regarding whether or not we should use a Wiki. Regarding those results, only four people were opposed to using a Wiki and would have liked to use something else. Two people were opposed to the concept of creating any sort of fanon, and two people were undecided. Everyone else--with an overwhelming majority of twelve votes--supported the creation of a Wiki.

So, I hope that is an issue we can now consider settled. I like to leave a poll open for at least a week to give as many people as possible a chance to vote, and if one side gets a lead like that it is unlikely future votes are going to tip the scales in another direction. As a result, I am going to consider the Wiki issue as one that is settled.

I also decided to deliberately remain silent for the past couple of days, because I wanted to avoid any continued back and forth posting. I wanted to see what people had to say without any sort of intermittent conversation. So, I am going to try and briefly summarize what everyone said--if you feel that this does not accurately capture what you said, please let me know. This is just a summary, to try and show the different points of view in a single location.

I asked the following questions:
- What is the best path forward for us as a community?
- What is the best use of the Candlekeep Wiki?
- What should we be doing, exactly, in your opinions?
- Are we still on board for a community-based project, and if so how should it be structured and organized?
- Ignoring what anyone else would want, what is your most ideal outcome?
- Alternatively, should we abandon the idea of a community-based project, and just use the Candlekeep Wiki as a place for people to post their homebrew lore?

Here is how people responded:
Dazzlerdal - Supports a community project. Although not stated directly in his post in response to the questions, in previous posts he makes clear his interest is in work dealing with the 1370s, and his dislike of the Time of Troubles, one of the RSE's of previous editions. He encourages that community project to move forward, to just take action, and his general feeling seems to be, 'if you build something awesome, they [new fans] will come.'

Wooly Rupert - Is not completely happy with the idea of a time jump, but is willing to support it because it includes all existing canon. This seems to be the central driving point for Wooly: 'keep all existing canon.' He would also like the timeline opened up so that people can fill in the gaps of the lost century.

Jeff Strix - Does not support rewriting the past, and supports keeping all existing canon. He is not enthusiastic about a time jump, but would support it. He believes that a Realms set in 1540/1550 DR would be the most ideal, as he has a concern of jumping too far into the future will make the Realms unrecognizable.

Markustay - Would prefer that people be allowed to write things that can be plugged into any era of the Realms without worrying about timelines.

CorellonsDevout - Feels that a time jump that provides a "clean slate" makes the most sense, but is concerned about how to integrate people who want to work at different points on the timeline, and disagreements on what the 'new slate' should look like. She is also supportive of the idea of people writing things that can be plugged into an era of the Realms without worrying about timelines. She is also not opposed to having our timeline near the current 5th Edition timeline, but is concerned about having our material overwritten by WotC.

Cyrinishad - Believes that we should build on the existing canon, not overwrite it.

SFDragon - Thinks we should just abandon the Realms entirely, and use the community to create a new setting.

Okay, that is everyone who appeared to be responding to my questions. If anyone feels that their thoughts or opinions have been mischaracterized, please respond so that they can be corrected.

============================

Based off these responses it seems that there is potential consensus on these three matters:

1. Accept all current canon.

2. Move the timeline forward.

3. Allow people to make lore for any place on the timeline, and in particular lore that can be 'plugged' into any edition or era. However, also lore that could help fill the 100 year time gap created by 4th Edition.


If this is what the community decides to do, then we have to answer the following questions:

1. How far ahead should we move the timeline?

2. How will we deal with the events of the Sundering, considering very little is published?

3. How will we deal with future WotC published canon which may overwrite or rewrite something that we publish as a community?

4. If people are writing in previous edition eras, what happens to their work if it is overwritten in the future by WotC's canon?


It is important for everyone to understand that all of these questions are interconnected, and they deal intimately on how the community wants to handle canon published by WotC moving forward. It will also largely pivot on how far we advance the timeline. The further we move the timeline ahead, the more room it creates for us to integrate future canon. The closer we stay to the current timeline, the more likely that something that is written will be overwritten at some point. This is particularly true as it relates to events after the Sundering, since so little is known about all of the exact changes the Sundering had on the Realms.

Another major point of consideration here is the design decisions made by WotC with 4th and 5th Edition FR. They attempted to do a 'soft reboot' of the Realms with each edition. With 4th Edition, the time jump was intended to create a 'soft reboot' of the Realms, and there were a lot of retcons thrown in there as well (like the stuff about Abier being a separate world from Toril). With 5th Edition, it was acknowledged that the changes that were made in 4th Edition was unpopular, and as a result the Sundering was another attempt at a reboot--but this time resetting the Realms to a state similar to pre-Time of Troubles. As a consequence of that, deities that have been dead for sometimes centuries are now back up and operating. With so little written about the post-Sundering Realms, this leaves a lot for people to make decisions about... we do not even know if the Sundering functioned like the Elven Sundering--where it went backward and forward through time, potentially changing events that we believed to be well established.

So, all of these things are important to take into consideration as those four questions are answered, because at the heart of them is questioning how the community should deal with the canon moving forward.

Edited by - Aldrick on 14 Jul 2017 22:08:53
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  22:23:23  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I honestly think that, if we have to accept all canon and fastforward for a blank slate, then we should have a degree of flexibility when it comes to contradicting canon itself. As it has been (justly) pointed out numerous times, being strict about canon not only kinda defeats the very purpose of this project, but it will surely invalidate people's work. We either craft our own lore, or we simply try to expand on what WotC's is currently doing. If you want to catch newcomers' eye and be useful to them, then they will likely be much more interested if we do #2 rather than #1, because it will connect with the new modules and adventures--in that case there will be no need ot further timeskip. If we do #1, starting from all existing canon as a base, then we need to accept that either we dissociate the CKWiki from future WotC canon, or a lot of our work will be potentially wasted (in short, we only incorporate canon that doesn't invalidate current CKWiki canon, especially if further lore has been built on it. This could always be subject to variation, maybe starting a vote, or something like that). In that case too, I don't see a large timeskip as needed, because the Sundering already provides what basically is *the* clean slate (I mean, it *actually* was an in-world reboot...)

As for the Sundering, we do have a list of changes that it brought (including the resurrection of so many gods, the return of whole continents, etc..), and they're gathered here: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Sundering#Aftermath. If we're going to make all canon the base of the CKWiki, then what we know of the Second Sundering should be no exception, especially given that all that it restores gives many people the opportunity to write in the current CKWiki time about stuff they like and that it was taken away during 4e, but that it came back in 5e. And if the project is aimed to recreate that sense of community and of a shared growing world, then staying in the past is not a very inviting perspective for writers. The Sundering more or less provides a situation in which everyone would be able to write about what they like, since many 4e elements have been kept, despite being much less relevant than they were. If we add portals to Abeir sprinkled throughout the Realms, then people will be able to write about it too.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Jul 2017 22:31:19
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  22:40:24  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

I honestly think that, if we have to accept all canon and fastforward for a blank slate, then we should have a degree of flexibility when it comes to contradicting canon itself. As it has been (justly) pointed out numerous times, being strict about canon not only kinda defeats the very purpose of this project, but it will surely invalidate people's work. We either craft our own lore, or we simply try to expand on what WotC's is currently doing. If you want to catch newcomers' eye and be useful to them, then they will likely be much more interested if we do #2 rather than #1, because it will connect with the new modules and adventures--in that case there will be no need ot further timeskip. If we do #1, starting from all existing canon as a base, then we need to accept that either we dissociate the CKWiki from future WotC canon, or a lot of our work will be potentially wasted (in short, we only incorporate canon that doesn't invalidate current CKWiki canon, especially if further lore has been built on it. This could always be subject to variation, maybe starting a vote, or something like that). In that case too, I don't see a large timeskip as needed, because the Sundering already provides what basically is *the* clean slate (I mean, it *actually* was an in-world reboot...)

As for the Sundering, we do have a list of changes that it brought (including the resurrection of so many gods, the return of whole continents, etc..), and they're gathered here: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Second_Sundering#Aftermath. If we're going to make all canon the base of the CKWiki, then what we know of the Second Sundering should be no exception, especially given that all that it restores gives many people the opportunity to write in the current CKWiki time about stuff they like and that it was taken away during 4e, but that it came back in 5e. And if the project is aimed to recreate that sense of community and of a shared growing world, then staying in the past is not a very inviting perspective for writers. The Sundering more or less provides a situation in which everyone would be able to write about what they like, since many 4e elements have been kept, despite being much less relevant than they were. If we add portals to Abeir sprinkled throughout the Realms, then people will be able to write about it too.



Correct me if I am wrong, but if I were to summarize what you would like to see happen (as I did in my previous post), then this would be your position:

Irennan - Supports a minor time jump, but wants to keep things close to 5th Edition lore. Then, moving forward, ignore WotC's canon in favor of the CKWiki canon.

Is that a correct and fair interpretation of your position? I notice that you were weighing the pro's and con's of such a move, but I am not completely sure which side you fell on by the end of your post.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  22:50:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, it is. However, while I think that all that the Sundering brought back should be kept (especially because if we need to be inclusive, then this also extends to people who lost things that they enjoyed and that have now got it back), since I think that future WotC lore that contradicts CKWiki lore should be ignored (unless--maybe--people decide to vote it in and override the CKWiki lore), a further timejump is pointless. Starting from 1491 (current year) will do.


Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Jul 2017 22:55:48
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  22:53:54  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That said, I think that maybe we could also elaborate on the changes brought by the Sundering. Instead of saying "Ao did X", we might do what WotC refused to do, and provide some explanations. Although that would be of little use to most players or DMs, and would only be interesting to those who care about continuity.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Jul 2017 22:55:55
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Jeff Strix
Acolyte

Germany
21 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  23:06:29  Show Profile Send Jeff Strix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I think if we decide to be independent - we should be independent from so called WotC official canon-content. It will be better for all long-time FR fans I think, for all who want to make FR better then now, to breathe in life into it. What we can make - can be official only for us, and for everyone, who thinks it's a right thing. If someone will think it's a bullshit and they don't need this, well they are free to think so and take WotC official canon. So, for us to ignore WotC canon products will be the best way. If it will be overwritten by them - no problem, they can do what they want, we don't care if we plan something like this, are we? How far in future - as I wrote already, the best for me will be 1540 + 20/30 years, or something like that. And one more time about WotC official canon and why should we ignore it - they simply have no borders anymore - as example, the last one "The tomb of Annihilation": Acererak in Forgotten realms, really? Just so? Is he simply teleportated from Greyhawk, without any rules? What a stupidity!
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Jeff Strix
Acolyte

Germany
21 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  23:12:13  Show Profile Send Jeff Strix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah yes, I forgot about Sundering I think there's no problem to fill some information, if needed, but of course very carefully (better without any global destructive things) - to avoid timeline conflicts in future.

Edited by - Jeff Strix on 14 Jul 2017 23:36:14
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