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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  05:41:55  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Playing in the lost century isn't about making changes to the setting. Playing in the lost century is about providing explanations for known but unexplained changes, and working with that which is unknown -- like my earlier example of the Wyvernspur family, or maybe detail yet another Alias clone (several remain undescribed), or focus on the plots of a mage who was formerly a Manshoon clone...


...and I think it is perfectly fine for people who want to do that--there is nothing wrong with adding additional details to the setting or filling in the gaps.

I fail to understand anything in what BadCatMan proposed, or how I expanded upon that proposal, prevents someone from doing that. I fail to see the objection to allowing people to write Candlekanon far in the future of current Realms canon--far enough in the future that WotC will never catch up or touch it.

What, exactly, is the specific objection against allowing people to write Candlekanon far ahead of the WotC canon?
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  05:46:37  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

And I agree with Wooly with what he posted above. There's a whole century to fill in with endless possibilities. We know the situation in 1372, and we know the situation in 1479, and we know the Spellplague happened - past that there's a whole century's worth of events that could happen! Whole states could be made and unmade in that amount of time. Think of all the history Europe packs into a medieval century.


I will pose the same question to you that I asked Wooly: There is nothing in the proposal made by BadCatMan that prevents people from doing what you described. Therefore, what is the specific objection against allowing people to write Candlekanon far ahead of the WotC canon?

I am trying to find and understand the argument against it. I can think of some arguments, but they are simply rehashes of similar arguments that I have already made previously. I cannot think of any from your perspective.
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  05:52:41  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're starting to get personal and upset when you don't understand our point of view, and I'm running out of patience for this topic.

I'm not arguing against it. Go ahead and write in the future if you like! I think the lost century is more interesting, has more to build on, but you don't seem to want to. So go nuts with the future idea! I won't stand in your way, and I'm beginning to wonder if working together on anything would be pleasurable at this point anyway.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  07:22:30  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

You're starting to get personal and upset when you don't understand our point of view, and I'm running out of patience for this topic.

I'm not arguing against it. Go ahead and write in the future if you like! I think the lost century is more interesting, has more to build on, but you don't seem to want to. So go nuts with the future idea! I won't stand in your way, and I'm beginning to wonder if working together on anything would be pleasurable at this point anyway.


If you are sensing anything from me it is likely frustration. I am trying to understand everyone's point of view, their objections, and the reason they are making their arguments.

I read your post as an objection to the idea proposed by BadCatMan. I apologize if I misread it, but that is the way that it came off to me, and I was trying to understand the root of the objection. You were very clear in your previous objections, and I simply wanted that same level of clarity.

The entire purpose of these threads is to try and build some sort of common consensus.

===

However, you are correct in that I have no interest in filling in that time gap. If you want my most honest opinion, it is that I hate most of the post-ToT lore, mostly as a result of the RSE's. I also think a lot of the stuff written into the canon is cheesy and ridiculous, especially during the 2E Era. Most of my enjoyment of the Realmslore revolves around the deities and the history.

So, for me, I view filling in the 3E to 4E gap as being an unpaid lore grunt for WotC. It would force me to acknowledge everything that I hate and despise, without the ability to object, without the ability to offer alternatives, without the ability to modify, and--failing all those things--the ability to smooth out the rougher edges and deal with the implications of the RSE events.

On top of it all, it would shackle me to WotC's canon. The best thing that happened with 4th Edition was that it liberated me from that canon. I used to feel like a slave to it, then when 4th Edition finally jumped the shark--an inevitable event by that point--I simply could no longer follow. I moved my personal Realms forward, took inspiration from where I wanted, and abandoned canon altogether.

I have no desire at all to, once again, to be shackled to the whims and machinations of WotC. I think they have run the setting into the ground, I do not trust them as a company, and I do not like most of what they produce.

I was willing to accept that people may make all the RSE's canon. However, I was hoping that by opening the canon up that I could at least try and deal with the canonical implications of them.

Writing in the time gap is literally the worst of all possible worlds. Not only am I forced to recognize everything that I despise and hate from the ToT forward, I would have no ability to really influence it. I would be locked into a 100 year time frame, filling in WotC's sad mistakes, trying to make their broken setting make sense.

Yeah, if you sensed frustration at the thought of that proposal, it was probably valid.

Locking me into the 100 year time span filling in the gaps would be a hands down dealbreaker for me. That is why I wanted to better understand the objections to BadCatMan's proposal. I am trying to understand everyone's point of view, since I very clearly have my own.

The only person that I feel that I have gotten angry with was Wooly, and that was because he was making unfounded accusations that I was somehow actively trying to screw over people who like the 4th Edition lore. As should be clear, I am not opposed to the 4th edition lore. In fact, I personally hate the Time of Troubles more than I hate the Spellplague. There are only a handful of things about the 4th edition lore, such that it is, that I really, really dislike.

My problem has always been more with the pre-4th edition RSE's (which I feel enabled and necessitated the events of the Spellplague and 4th Edition). In fact, you may sense the embittered grognard in me as well. I recall the years I spent yelling and screaming when yet another RSE would happen--especially during 3rd edition. Prior to 3rd edition, I complained about the Time of Troubles, and how TSR's Code of Ethics basically ruined the Zhents, Red Wizards and other villains of the setting. Because they had been ruined, when WotC took control they brought in the Shades/Returned Netherese for 3rd Edition, which basically took the place because the Zhents, Red Wizards, and other villains of the setting had been ruined. Of course, I complained about them because they were yet more overpowered wizard dropping nuclear magical bombs everywhere, that Shar was literally the worst deity for a conquesting Empire to worship... sigh. Then there was RSE after RSE after RSE. Practically one or more every single year. By the end of 3rd Edition I was screaming at WotC on the official forums to stop blowing up the Realms. ...and then, of course, 4th Edition dropped. Why? They needed a clean slate and 'space to write' (their words). Yeah, no wonder.

It was not until 4th Edition when the majority of fans of the setting actually moved into the same position that I was in, but it took WotC jumping the shark to do that. There were always people who hated this RSE or that RSE, but the tide never really turned against WotC and their efforts until 4th Edition.

Then, finally, WotC realized their mistake. With the coming of 5th Edition, WotC was sending out all the right signals. It finally seemed like everyone was on the same page. WotC was promising the Sundering was going to be the last major RSE for the Realms, and that it would fix the setting--bringing it closer to its pre-Time of Troubles state. It was as if WotC had finally heard me after all of these years. I was cautiously optimistic.

5th Edition dropped. I waited for a 5E FRCS. It never came. The post-Sundering 5th Edition Realms was left bare-bones, with little explanation. They threw out some adventures, and what did they include? More RSE nonsense dealing with Tiamat, on the Sword Coast of all places. Ugh.

Now we are at the point where WotC is basically saying that they are no longer really supporting the setting. I mean, it is the default setting for 5E D&D, but that is about it. We are not getting any new Realms sourcebooks in the foreseeable future, and now it appears that we may no longer be getting novels as well. Now, I am personally not a big fan of the novels--I know others are--my focus and interest has always been on the sourcebooks.

As a result, I had hoped--the reason for this proposed project--that we as a community could find a way to reknit ourselves back together, correct the problems with the setting, and then push forward with a new alternate canon. Especially since WotC is unlikely to publish much canon for the Realms in the future.

So, I suppose, if you are sensing frustration from me, it is a culmination of years of frustration. I believe if I am not mistaken, that you are a new fan of the setting. So you do not have the literal years of real life history devoted to trying to preserve the setting. You were not around for the fights over the Time of Troubles, the Great Tree vs Great Wheel Cosmologies retcon, the fights over the 3E RSE's, the fights over the Spellplague and 4th edition. Having not been here for that, it might be hard to understand the passions and the lingering wounds of those of us who have rehashed these same fights and battles again and again.

So, yeah, this topic--especially for me--touches on some unhealed edition war wounds.
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe

USA
134 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  07:58:02  Show Profile  Visit Adhriva's Homepage  Send Adhriva an AOL message  Send Adhriva a Yahoo! Message Send Adhriva a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The big roadblock I see to jumping far into the future is relevancy. Most games today, unsurprisingly, take place in the modern Realms. I don't think you need hundreds of years to act as a buffer, I think you just need a decade or the mid-to-late 1500s at most. The closer we can get to "this material is useful to your game", the better. A niche setting will end up a lot like Spelljammer or the Arcane Age, but without the wider support WotC was able to bring to bear on those projects then a group of fans could. I also think it would be great to go back and fill in the gap period in addition if a contributor choose to do so. Once again, the closer the content is to a rough time frame - in either direction - the better. Contributors aren't going to be full-time world builders, so the more foundation - either canon or accepted fanon - we have to work with, the easier it becomes for people to add content. Not saying someone can't build that far out into the future, but it might not make the best "default" time frame.

Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
233 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  13:58:58  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

We then move the timeline forward to give a significant enough buffer space between the published Realms and some vague Dawn Cataclysm-like event. Then throw another time jump in there to get us a significant distance away from that.

We place the vague the Dawn Cataclysm-like event in there to give us a point for our "modern" history.


Um. That sounds like an RSE. ;)

I'm not personally in favour of a centuries- or millennium-long time jump. It means the setting would be in a very different form: with Cormyr as a huge empire commanding the Inner Sea, or be toppled and replaced by the Goblin Republic, say, or the Realms as a magitech modern setting with cars and planes. We should expect the setting to have evolved and changed over such a huge time, and to bear very little relation to the familiar one. At this point, you're making a new setting from whole cloth with a lot of ancient history. It's my biggest problem with the 4th-edition time-jump to 1479 DR.

I suggested a generation, 25–30 years, so it's far enough in the future to be doing something new, beyond the reach of WotC for a few years, but close enough to be recognisably similar and reasonably connected. One can still use existing descriptions of Cormyr for the Cormyr of 1521 DR, not so for the Cormyr of 1600 DR, let alone 2495 DR. This only requires some historical development for most topics, minimising workload. New (mostly human) PCs and NPCs can be the sons and daughters of former PCs and canon NPCs. Besides, the Year of the Moon Harp Restored is perfect for the concept – the Realms are all about moons and harps, and restoration is the goal. (I believe this agrees with Adhriva's last post.)

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Getting hands on old sourcebooks is getting easier, actually. I now have a whole library of sourcebooks thanks to Drivethrurpg and its sidearms like the DM's Guild.


Oh yeah, that's a great point. As everything goes digital, everything old is new again and books will never go out of print. Actually, come to think of it, this could change the nature of Realms fandom and D&D play. New fans and players won't be locked into the latest sourcebooks and current edition, but will be free to go back and discover the old, which will inevitably boost interest in the older setting. The Forgotten Realms Wiki will provide a useful overview and guide to the various eras.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki and Candlekeep Wiki
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30203 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  14:40:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick



So, yeah, this topic--especially for me--touches on some unhealed edition war wounds.



It touches on these wounds for a lot of us... The difference is that some of us are trying to move on from that.

You laid out that you want this to be a group project -- that means you need to accept that what you like about the Realms and would want to write about is not going to be the same as what others like and want to write about.

Arguing about it is just going to turn people away from your project.

If you want this thing to succeed, you're going to have to accept that people like different things. Let people play in whatever time frame they want. If you don't like the time jump, that's fine -- don't write in it. But let other people play there, if they will. Otherwise, this isn't truly a group effort to create new canon, it's your effort to have Aldrickanon.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  18:28:22  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alright, at this point I think I am done. We are simply going to be discussing this issue ad nauseam at this point and will not reach a consensus.

I have zero desire to spend any of my time being WotC's unpaid lore monkey, trying to paper over the giant and enormous holes they've created for the setting. I engage with the Realms as a hobby and for fun. This would neither be fun nor interesting to me.

If someone else wants to pick the project idea up and go with it in a totally different direction, then I wish them all the luck in the world.

Otherwise, I would encourage BadCatMan to just use the CKW as a place for people to dump their homebrew stuff to keep it off the FRW.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30203 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  18:58:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No one is saying that you yourself have to work in the lost century -- just allow other people to, if they want to.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  19:25:37  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

No one is saying that you yourself have to work in the lost century -- just allow other people to, if they want to.



quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Playing in the lost century isn't about making changes to the setting. Playing in the lost century is about providing explanations for known but unexplained changes, and working with that which is unknown -- like my earlier example of the Wyvernspur family, or maybe detail yet another Alias clone (several remain undescribed), or focus on the plots of a mage who was formerly a Manshoon clone...


...and I think it is perfectly fine for people who want to do that--there is nothing wrong with adding additional details to the setting or filling in the gaps.

I fail to understand anything in what BadCatMan proposed, or how I expanded upon that proposal, prevents someone from doing that. I fail to see the objection to allowing people to write Candlekanon far in the future of current Realms canon--far enough in the future that WotC will never catch up or touch it.

What, exactly, is the specific objection against allowing people to write Candlekanon far ahead of the WotC canon?



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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30203 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  19:44:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've no idea what the point of that last post is. It indicates that you're okay with allowing gaps to be filled in, but your post before that indicates that you won't do this thing you proposed if it means letting people play in the lost century.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Jul 2017 19:45:56
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  22:09:07  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I've no idea what the point of that last post is. It indicates that you're okay with allowing gaps to be filled in, but your post before that indicates that you won't do this thing you proposed if it means letting people play in the lost century.



That is not what I said at all. As I said, I feel that this conversation is becoming circular.

The post you were referring too was my personal preferences, as in--***I*** specifically have no interest in writing in the 100 year lore gap created by WotC. As to my personal reasons for that, people can go re-read my previous posts.

That was not me saying that ***OTHER PEOPLE*** cannot fill in whatever time gap that they wanted. As I have said repeatedly...

quote:
...and I think it is perfectly fine for people who want to do that--there is nothing wrong with adding additional details to the setting or filling in the gaps.


quote:
If someone does not want to play in the Candlekanon era, that is fine, the CK Wiki is still a useful resource to them for ideas and inspiration. People may set their Realms during the time of Netheril, for example, and add fan lore for that era. People may want to ignore the Spellplague and other such events, and post their lore for that era. People may want to play in the 4E / 5E era, and post their lore for that era.


quote:
What BadCatMan proposed: Accept ALL canon (current and future), and just move the Candlekanon timeline forward far enough that WotC will never publish anything that will contradict it. This way people can play in whatever era they want, it is backward compatible with the FRW, and people who hate or dislike something about the Realms can choose to ignore it since the Candlekanon will be far beyond all the RSE nonsense.


...I could go on, but that gets my point across.

I intentionally avoided bringing up my own personal feelings into the matter originally, because I felt that it could unjustly bias people against the proposal. Mostly, because I am strongly opposed to the RSE's--primarily those starting with the ToT and moving through the 3E Era.

However, you attacked me personally and impugned my motives many times throughout this thread. You accused me of having a hostile bias against people who liked 4th Edition, which is false. You accused me of trying to toss out 4th Edition fans and new players, and a whole slew of other things. You, whether intentionally or not, mislead, misled, and misjudged what I have written repeatedly. This has led to me becoming rather frustrated, which KanzenAU sensed in my writing. This is another reason that I decided to lay my personal feelings on the matter on the table, to try and insulate myself against the types of false accusations that you have made.

At this point, the majority of people who have voted actually favor the original proposal, which avoids the time jump. I embraced the proposal of BadCatMan, because I hoped that it might be more amenable to the people who did not like the original proposal. There are pro's and con's to everything--everything has an opportunity cost associated with it. I am open minded, I simply wanted a fair compromise that found a way to bridge the divide between people who liked different editions.

I always knew and expected that there would be strong opinions here. The edition wars is a sore spot for all of us who have gone through them. However, when I made the thread I was hoping for people who did not like the idea to propose alternative solutions. We could have then discussed the pro's and con's of going this way or that way, and could have had an honest debate about the way forward, and eventually come to a consensus.

Instead, what we got from you Wooly, was a hostile ultimatum immediately out of the gate:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If I was participating in this, I'd be damned uncomfortable leaving people like Diffan and other post-3E fans out in the cold. I WILL NOT support anything that divides us by the era(s) we like.


quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Also, you need to think of who your target audience is. If you don't want to include newcomers to the Realms, that's your call -- and it's one I won't support in any way. You do that, I'll not even publicly acknowledge the existence of your site, much less direct people your way.


Having started the discussion in this hostile manner, you tainted everything that followed, and our discussion grew more heated. Primarily, because I felt insulted by your false accusations.

My goal was never to divide people by eras. It was to try and find some sort of middle ground compromise on a community project. However, after having this discussion, I cannot for the life of me imagine enjoying--as a hobby--working with you.

So, I am sitting here and imagining a future of this project, where even if everything goes your way today, where some point in the future something happens that you do not like and you turn hostile again.

On top of that, I am rethinking my support for the time jump post-current FR canon. The reason is largely because of the reasons BadCatMan laid out in his post. Basically, due to such a large time jump we would be rewriting the Realms from scratch, essentially. ...and if I am going to sign up for that much work, why do I want to do that for the Realms? What am I really, on a personal level, getting out of this?

In the beginning, I thought it would be a way for me to preserve my Realms knowledge, and recapture the things that I loved about the setting. It would have also given me the opportunity to build something alongside the community. But this entire discussion has made me realize that all we are doing is re-opening old edition war wounds, and I would be in a position where I would have to deal with situations like this on a semi-regular basis.

So, in my mind, at this point, the benefits of doing this no longer outweigh the costs. The CKW can be used as a place for people to chunk their homebrew stuff to keep it off the FRW, it is unlikely anyone will read it, and like all unsupported settings, the community--including the folks here on this forum--will eventually fade away as everyone migrates to different projects and settings.

I suppose we should just make peace with this reality and move on with our lives. Everyone will probably be happier in the end, because the alternative is to end up in the hostile and nasty place we were years ago. I mean, you know as well as I do--look around this place. How many old scribes are still left? Do you remember how active Candlekeep used to be? Look at it now. Imagine what it will look like in fifteen years. That's the future.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3463 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  22:13:09  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i like the idea (mostly because i was already doing it but using wordpress), but im only doing it up to 1370s DR and ill be remaking it so the world makes sense (without daft bits that Ed would never have done). Its just going to be my vision that i can play in but people can look at (and play in too if they want).

Id encourage everyone to do something similar. If we cant all cooperate we can at least give people a window into the world we create from Ed Greenwoods fantastic base.

Then if others want to run in a world they have plenty to choose from and they can help contribute if they want (and are allowed, but its someones world with a single vision so it should be more cohesive).

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5803 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  00:08:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I love the idea. I don't have time. I wish I could win the lottery, and I'd make it a focus for my life. As it stands now, I'm writing my little piece for my own enjoyment that expands small pockets. Eventually I'll put it out for others, and I expect half the people will hate it. But some will enjoy it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2008 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  00:21:01  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I love the idea. I don't have time. I wish I could win the lottery, and I'd make it a focus for my life. As it stands now, I'm writing my little piece for my own enjoyment that expands small pockets. Eventually I'll put it out for others, and I expect half the people will hate it. But some will enjoy it.



I hear ya. There aren't enough hours in the day for all my interests/obsessions lol.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
656 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  00:28:19  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do like the idea, however I have a question: Why to deal with the Realms pre-ToT? For what I've read here, the general consensus is that that period is good written, and have no continuity problems. The problems start in the post-ToT Realms.

I'd like to help, but I will only help with 4e stuff, for two major reasons:

1. And the main one: I started to play the Realms in the final year of 3.5. So, I'm lightly familiar with the 3.5 Realms (I only own a few books of the time, and none of the novels), and really familiar with 4e Realms (mainly sourcebooks, but I do own a few novels as well). And since many here are pretty familiar with the 3.5 Realms, I'm going with the 4e ones, that maybe will be lacking people.

2. Seeing the hate 4e has, I would like to put a 4e perspective in the project. So, the pre- and post-Spellplague Realms is the area I would like to help.

Obviously, if this project is going to happen (that seeing what the latest post are implying...)

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Jul 2017 00:38:38
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Imrathil
Acolyte

Greece
12 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  00:43:48  Show Profile Send Imrathil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm fully with Aldrick

Have to confess, that im an old member here but rarely post. I am doing so now cause I do feel that the Realms are dying - if not dead already. I for one am aware of the severity of situation.

Reading through these 3 pages, I see people suggesting that we should be forced to accept even stuff that the majority of the community "gracefully" ignores, and on the other hand Aldrick is suggesting that the community, having being divided by Wizard's mistreatment of the Realms for so long, can at last vote and freely decide what we wanna keep and how we want to proceed.

We have been getting stuff down our throats from Wizbro, we don't want the same from this project or the community. Thanks but no thanks. You mention inclusiveness but this one-sided. The point here is for the community to vote and decide together so we can at last move on (the timeline) together. Now THAT is inclusiveness.

I'm sorry but I couldn't stand with ultimatums from any side, so I'm voting for the stages as suggested in the OP

Also, can you please try to accept and support an effort to keep the Realms alive, instead of hanging in the back seat, judging harshly, being absolute and shooting down other people's good-willed efforts?

"Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name"

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14020 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  01:32:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And so this goes the way this always goes... {sigh}
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

You will never, EVER get a 'consensus' on which parts to keep, and which to throw away. We've had that problem around here for years. This is why I cleave to canon, and work around the inconsistencies (and stuff I out-right hate). Its the only way to create material that will be acceptable by EVERYONE.

Like I said...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jul 2017 01:34:02
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30203 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  03:31:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aldrick and Imrathil: It's hardly an ultimatum for one person to say they won't support something, especially when they also say they're not going act against something. Is my approval really somehow central to this project?

Now, I'm being accused of false accusations, simply because I say we shouldn't be leaving people out. Where do I come up with this idea that people are being left out? Well, let's see...

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick


Stage 3: Complete Candlekanan
In this final stage the timeline begins to advance forward beyond 1380 DR in a set fashion (perhaps one in game year for one real life year as this was roughly the normal pace of canon prior to 4th Edition). Everything after this point becomes complete Candlekanan and should be considered a complete deviation from the Realms canon. This means that the events of the Spellplague and other such things will not happen unless people vote it into existence.


So people that like the changes to the Realms after 1380 are told these things will not be included unless the majority chooses it. These people are, therefore, likely to be left out -- and that's if they even felt like participating after being brushed to the side like that, to begin with.

Further:
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

The only real alternative is to force the canonization of all things 4th Edition, and that will never fly.



A statement that 4E changes will not be included.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

There is also no real filling in the gaps of the 100 year time jump. What are you filling in, exactly? What would you add that would not immediately get swept away with the Sundering?


A statement that a wide-open time period shouldn't be included.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I do not like the idea of setting stuff in the time gap.


Again, a statement against the inclusion of a wide-open time period.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

However, you are correct in that I have no interest in filling in that time gap. If you want my most honest opinion, it is that I hate most of the post-ToT lore, mostly as a result of the RSE's. I also think a lot of the stuff written into the canon is cheesy and ridiculous, especially during the 2E Era. Most of my enjoyment of the Realmslore revolves around the deities and the history.

So, for me, I view filling in the 3E to 4E gap as being an unpaid lore grunt for WotC. It would force me to acknowledge everything that I hate and despise, without the ability to object, without the ability to offer alternatives, without the ability to modify, and--failing all those things--the ability to smooth out the rougher edges and deal with the implications of the RSE events.

On top of it all, it would shackle me to WotC's canon.


Another statement that published canon past a certain point is not going to be included. How this isn't leaving people that like that published canon out is beyond me.

The thing that is most remarkable to me is that I am being attacked and accused of lying when I'm reading the exact words that you wrote. It is almost as remarkable to me that we are fighting over who is going to be allowed to participate. Somehow, I am the bad guy for looking at all this stuff saying you want to leave out published canon and suggesting we include it so that we don't leave out people that would prefer to write for later eras. I am, apparently, some sort of evil monster for suggesting that we include stuff I personally dislike so that more people can participate.

The final and most ironic part of this whole discussion:

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

How many old scribes are still left? Do you remember how active Candlekeep used to be? Look at it now. Imagine what it will look like in fifteen years. That's the future.


Old scribes -- the bulk of whom, including myself, prefer the Realms as it was before the changes of 4E. Who are the new scribes? People that have come into the Realms since then -- people you are trying to exclude by disallowing them to do anything for the era of Realmslore they know the most about.

Look, I'm sorry that you feel that I'm ruining this for you. But I'm not going to sit back and be accused of lying and such when I'm taking your repeated statements at face value. And I'm not going to sit back and pretend I think it's a good idea to willfully segregate Realms fans and then speak of community.

My support of this project remains contingent on allowing ALL fans of the Realms to participate in whatever way they want. If this is an ultimatum and is a dealbreaker for you, so be it.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14020 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  05:33:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm in the same boat. I dislike a bunch of the 2e lore. I dislike some of the 3e lore. I can't really say I dislike all of the 4e lore, because there are quite a few 'juicy bits' I like to pilfer, but as a whole, 4e is pretty ugly. Of late, I like re-spinning quite a bit of it (if you haven't noticed), so as to not violate canon, so much as bend it into something more palatable. 5e, so far, I have no problem with. Apparently, all canon from every past edition is now 5e canon... even if the canon disagrees with each other (the one upside of the 'lore lite' approach is that THEY don't have to explain those inconsistencies, which means we get to pick & choose what is the correct version for our personal Realms).

My point is, that although there are parts of each edition I don't care for - and whole swaths of 2e and 4e I absolutely hate - I work around it, all the time, and am constantly building off all of it.... because its the only 'common ground' we all have.

The problem here is that I think some folk think their version is the 'right version', and are subconsciously thinking others have the exact same thing in mind. We don't. It took me awhile to realize that as well - I use to call for a reboot when 5e was first announced. That they should restart the setting at 1e all over again, and then keep the same basic continuity, unless over-written by newer lore. I thought that was the perfect solution. It would allow us to go back in and correct all the crap that has been building up for years. And, of course, I was thinking we'd all want the same bits altered... and I was taught otherwise by a bunch of people here. What I thought should be the 'correct' Realms wasn't anyone else's idea of it, and no two people are going to agree on what should stay and what should go (parts yes, but not whole-cloth).

My version was only going to be 'perfect' to me, not anyone else. It was actually hard for me to accept that, but I finally did. There are some pretty smart folks around here. So, at the end of the day, that means a project like this can only work if ALL CANON is still considered canon, so that each person's version can still work within the greater framework. You know the song, "Breakfast at Tiffany's"? Its kinda like that. None of us fully agrees with any of the rest of us, but we all agree we like The Forgotten Realms. Thats the one thing we got.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jul 2017 15:50:39
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2008 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  06:03:25  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol now that song is going through my head. Thanks, Markustay . I see your point and agree with you, however. My fear from the beginning was that there would be disagreements among those who did get involved in the project. I was (and still am), willing to give it a try, but what I want could differ from what others want, and vice versa.

I want to understand th project and help get it worked out, but I am worried about the clash. I wasn't going to say anything until the project got under way, but it was in the back of my mind. I was hoping compromise would fix that (and maybe it would). We are all passionate about the Realms, and we are passionate about canon (whether it's canon we like or hate, because otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation). But what we like and don't like, and what we want and don't want, differ.

I have thought about this over the past couple days, especially with the turn this has taken. I mean, there is already arguing. No matter what direction the project takes, there could be fighting.

Unless we treated it somewhat like the DMsGuild, but with a little more content freedom. For instance, IIRC, the Guild doesn't currently allow short stories or novellas (unless you're Ed lol), but maybe we could allow that, if folks wanted.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Jul 2017 06:04:03
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4883 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  06:32:36  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I realised a few years back, likely more than a few years, that creating in a shared world is hard work. If you want to conform to "what has gone before", the process always involved bending and re-casting your great ideas to fit the framework. Coupled with that was the issue of copying (consciously or unconsciously) the work of others. In my favored areas of interest (the Unapproachable East, history of the Realms in general and just lately, languages of the Realms) I realised that I had a singular vision of what I thought was "right" and what "fit". Naturally, that wasn't the case at all, but sometimes if you get in first, your idea/voice carries the day. I've been very fortunate in that regard because for many of my ideas I managed to "get in first". But my first ever big FR project regarding the Fallen Kingdom (which ultimately culminated in my North Timeline) showed me just how hard it can be when you are trying to collaborate on a project and there are differences in approach, ideas and ... what was "right". Since that time, I've pretty much been a one man band of FR output save for a few collaborations with Eric Boyd who, thankfully, I was almost always on the same wavelength with. Projects like this are extremely difficult to pull off given the creative input required. It's like getting 10 people to start painting the Sistine Chapel from all around the edges moving inwards. The result could be awesome, but chances are it won't. That's not to say that endeavours of this type can't succeed, but in my view they require significant focus and to operate on a much smaller scale. As I read this thread, all I could see in my head was the invasion of Russia. Starting out narrow and then rapidly expanding in scope until ... disaster. In my opinion, for what it's worth, the lofty goal of re-writing the entire setting is unachievable from a group of well-meaning amateurs, living normal lives with families, jobs, other commitments etc and who are essentially strangers. And if you want my advice, for what that's worth, start small. Pick a topic. Gods, magic, the Weave, the history of cosmetics in Impiltur (oops, sorry that's already been done) and focus on that and get it done. Then move onto something else. Incremental results are the most achievable in this type of a project. Grognard out.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 12 Jul 2017 08:38:15
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  06:45:43  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly Rupert -

Okay, I took the time to read your post, walked away, thought about what you wrote, and then came back. Maybe it is the medium in which we are having the conversation, but your first two posts in this thread came off to me as exceptionally hostile. I read what you wrote as giving an ultimatum, as I said. Although you did not out-and-out say it, I felt what you wrote implied that you would go out of your way to actively sabotage or undermine the project in some way. In other words, were the project brought up on the forums, you would actively show up in threads to disparage participation and the like.

However, let's set that aside because it is not the main issue here.

The main issue here is that I do not think you understand what I proposed. My goal, from the first thread that I posted on the idea, to this moment was to set up a system in which people voted on what to include and what not to include. The purpose of voting is to build consensus.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So people that like the changes to the Realms after 1380 are told these things will not be included unless the majority chooses it.


...and that was exactly my intention. However, what you did not seem to understand is that the same is true for literally everything in my original proposal. For example, in stage one, because the lore for the Giants in the Realms is a huge mess conically--especially as it relates to the timeline--someone might re-write it. The ideal solution to this problem would be to put some meat on the bones of that lore, move some dates around in the canon history, and basically try and make what was presented work.

In stage two, literally, every RSE from the Time of Troubles onward was being placed on the table. People who wanted to support the ToT could propose it. People could discuss alterations to the events. People could discuss ditching the concept altogether. All of these things are on the table.

The ultimate goal I had in mind in doing this was to try and smooth things out. Like, for example, if people wanted to support the return of the Elves to Myth Drannor, we need to discuss how silly that looks when the height of the Retreat begins just 20 years earlier. So, literally, within the canon timeline the Elves are all leaving for Evermeet... and in just two decades time turn around and come right back. So, people can discuss this RSE and offer their thoughts and opinions. Maybe --some-- of the Elves return and reclaim Myth Drannor, and they do not plant the Tree of Souls. If we allow the Tree of Souls to be planted in our canon then we need to discuss the implications of planting the tree.

As a result, by the time we reach the third stage, ideally, all of the canon problems presented in the established lore will be sorted out. We avoid silly situations where Zhentil Keep gets destroyed, and then within less than five years it is completely rebuilt and fielding armies again as if nothing happened. The goal was to try to have all of that stuff make sense.

The reason I suggested stopping at 1380 DR or thereabouts was the time jump. As I said to you previously, the time jump is a major problem. It is a problem because it makes all of the previous lore outdated. This is the entire reason that the conversation about 'filling in the 100 year time gap' happened. The time jump, from the perspective of WotC, was a soft reboot of the Realms. They did the time jump to deliberately invalidate the old lore and to, as they said at the time, 'create space to tell more stories.' They needed all that new space because they were nuking the setting left and right. 4th Edition was a direct result, and a necessary outcome, of all the RSE's they were having throughout 3rd Edition.

However, around this point, BatCatMan comes along and makes an alternative proposal. There were pro's and con's to his proposal, just as they were to mine. Every decision we make has an opportunity cost associated with it. I took his proposal and put it to everyone, hoping that it might be something that would further bridge the divide.

After all, I felt that your concerns were legitimate. I also considered those same things before I made the original post. It was the reason that throughout the original post I was trying to point out ways that 4th Edition stuff could be incorporated. I wanted to give everyone the opportunity to propose things that they liked about the setting, and not feel shut out because of the edition that they choose to play in or were first introduced too.

However, one of the con's of BatCatMan's proposal would be that we would have to acknowledge all the canon stuff that we do not like--that includes the 4th Edition stuff, which as you know the majority here dislike. When you appeared to be hostile to an additional time jump beyond WotC's canon--for the same purposes that WotC did the 4th Edition time jump, a soft reboot--that is when my frustration grew.

Because at that point, as Imrathil points out, it felt like the idea of being inclusive was one-sided at that point. People who disliked the 4th Edition changes were forced to acknowledge them, the people who hated the previous edition RSE's were forced to acknowledge them. The notion of 'writing in the 100-time gap' is unappealing to anyone who hated all the stuff that came before or after.

That is the reason that I felt holding a vote on all the RSE's and stuff was beneficial. It allowed those of us who disliked a particular RSE to vote it down or offer an alternative explanation. Failing both of those battles it allowed us to smooth things out and properly deal with the consequences of the RSE. The same is true on the other side if you liked a particular RSE and it got voted down, you had the ability to find alternative ways to add back in the elements that you enjoyed. People would win some of those battles and lose others, but at least no one could accuse it of being unfair. That is just the nature of canon, and unlike when bad things happen to the Realms from WotC, at least the people who opposed it had the opportunity to be heard and make their arguments as to why it was a bad idea.

Thus, by 1380 DR or so, the Realms would have looked similar to the canon Realms within that timeline. This means that the bulk of the published lore for the setting would still be useable, except where explicitly contradicted. We could then move forward at that point with a clean slate.

To me it seemed to be the fairest way of dealing with all of the competing interests. That is what I was trying to do in my original proposal. I felt BatCatMan's proposal offered an alternative compromise--acknowledge all the canon, but get far enough removed from it that people can ignore the stuff that they do not like.

However, the deeper issue is that no matter what is decided this could just re-open all of the old edition war wounds, as happened in our discussion. It was my naive hope that people would view this as an effort to reknit back together a community under the roof of a shared canon. I knew some people would not like the outcome, no matter what was decided, but it was my hope at least people would both respect and accept the outcome since it was put to a vote.

...but of course, that did not happen.

I hope now that the misunderstandings have been cleared up between us.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  07:27:50  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Taking into account the posts by Markustay, CorellonsDevout, and George Krashos...

What is the best path forward for us as a community? What is the best use of the Candlekeep Wiki? What should we be doing, exactly, in your opinions?

(These questions are directed to everyone.)

I mean, no one is opposed to the idea of using the Candlekeep Wiki as a place for people to post their homebrew lore. So I do not think that is a point of contention.

So, I suppose, what we are really doing, is revisiting the idea of whether or not we want a shared unofficial canon since WotC is unlikely to really do much with the Realms in the future.

I mean, it boils down, at least in my mind, to what I said in one of my previous posts to Wooly. An unsupported setting is going to die, we have already lost a significant number of our scribes here at Candlekeep, and as the years pass we will likely lose even more. It was my hope that having a community project like an unofficial canon would keep people interested in the setting, and could even potentially grow the community. That was the intent behind my initial proposal.

Are we still on board for a community-based project, and if so how should it be structured and organized? Ignoring what anyone else would want, what is your most ideal outcome?

Alternatively, should we abandon the idea of a community-based project, and just use the Candlekeep Wiki as a place for people to post their homebrew lore?

(These questions are for everyone.)

Edited by - Aldrick on 12 Jul 2017 07:45:39
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3463 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  08:43:04  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Community project may work. Many people are more silent watchers than contributors.

Unfortunately the only thing that will save the realms is a brilliant version that satisfies most people.
Talking about it will achieve nothing because people's opinions are never swayed by words, only by actions.

So make something. If its brilliant people will use it and or get involved. Its the only way to get a consensus. Plus its fun and cathartic making something (even if its a remake of a setting, its still making something). It will probably take years and it might not be good enough for other people, but as long as its good enough for you its a job well done.


Now im off to continue making my own version where the ToT was just a rumourmill gone out of control and an over active sage that liked making fictional stories about the gods, and several power groups that tried to do away with old enemies by using the rumourmill to discredit their powerful religious allies (the churches of Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, and Mystra). Oh and a greedy caliph who captured the living vessel of the weave and tried to absorb her power thus destabilising magic for a time until she was reincarnated.
But thats just the secret plot. As far as the rest of faerun is concerned the gods walked faerun and many died and others were raised.

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