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 Power/Worship of Gods pre Time of Troubles
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14038 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  03:54:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

IIRC, the humans who worship Eilistraee (there are quite a bit of them) just call her Eilistraee (or any of her normal titles). Although I agree that she wouldn't make a good Aphrodite. Her beauty has indeed been described as "the answer to that question which every soul felt, but no words could frame", but her personality just doesn't fit the archetype. Nor would Sharindlar, who's more about fertility than passion.
Okay, it was actually Mielikki who has an alias amongst the elves - Khalreshaar.

For some reason I always get Mielikki and Eilistraee mixed up. Well, not so much 'mixed up', as that I think they could possibly be the same person (and maybe Artemis from the Greek - they represent this 'lady huntress/primal goddess of the forests', both beautiful and deadly).

And if we look at that name - Khalreshaar, that name hidden in there works as a suffix or prefix denoting 'dark in nature' in a lot of Realmslore. And Ed told me (in his thread here awhile back) that Shar and 'The Shaar' do have a connection. So maybe it comes full-circle and Artemis is Mielikki (and Ki - who is a goddess in TWO other RW pantheons), and is also Eilistraee, and the poor elves of Evermeet don't even realize they are worshiping Eilistraee because they think Khaleshaar is Mielikki (which she is... but she could be so much more).

Although I actually picture Zandilar being a more ancient, primal aspect of Eilistraee, and she had worshipers among the original Green (Sylvan) elves who's arrival predates the High (Gold & Silver) Elves. Because of you think about it, why would any of the dark Elven pantheon appear as Drow, unless they wanted to? According to Elaine's Evermeet novel, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were around before the descent (as was Lolth, of course). Their skin would be dark brown, not Ebony. In other words, they would look just like sylvan elves (as Zandilar would, if she were still around).

Of course, now that I am thinking about it... that means Vhaeraun and Eilistraee...

Too much 'Game of Thrones' maybe.


EDIT:
On the other hand, Selvetarm was a bit 'special'....

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2017 05:10:47
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2698 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  04:31:55  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd exclude the Eilistraee=Artemis analogy, because of how different they are (see Ed's comment above; Eilistraee isn't meant to represent that deadly beauty: she can be, but she's more loving and nurturing than that). I don't see much overlap with Mielikki either--they both love nature, but that's it. The only human deity that shares quite a bit with Eilistraee is Lliira.

According to Elaine's novel, Eilistraee was herself even before she chose to wander on Toril, where the sylvan/green/dark elves were headed; same for Vhaeraun. Zandilar asked Vhaeraun's help well after the descent, when both siblings had become drow, and when they were alredy not on good terms, so I'd safely exclude incest from the picture, lol (even more so because Eilistraee came to know about Selvetarm only later, and took care of him, trying to lead him on a brighter path).

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Edited by - Irennan on 14 Jul 2017 04:44:36
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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2015 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  04:38:58  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Didn't Zandilar eventually merge with Bast (later known as Sharess)?

It's been a long time since I read EVERMEET, but weren't Araunshnee, Eilistraee, and Vhaeraun all described as having black skin? Also, it is true Eilistraee chose self-banishment before the Descent, but didn't she do it because she sensed there would come a time when the dark elves would need someone to guide them?

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2698 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  04:45:48  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Didn't Zandilar eventually merge with Bast (later known as Sharess)?

It's been a long time since I read EVERMEET, but weren't Araunshnee, Eilistraee, and Vhaeraun all described as having black skin? Also, it is true Eilistraee chose self-banishment before the Descent, but didn't she do it because she sensed there would come a time when the dark elves would need someone to guide them?



Zandilar nearly died giving birth to Selvetarm, then Bast kinda saved her by merging with her, forming Sharess.

Yes, they were described like that, but that probably was an oversight. And yes, it is true.

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Edited by - Irennan on 14 Jul 2017 04:46:38
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2015 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  05:05:02  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol I know it's true, that's why I said "it is" (I was responding to Markustay about her being around before the Descent. I think I was typing when you posted). I phrased the last part as a question as a further response, but I probably shouldn't have, since I already knew that lol.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14038 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  05:14:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One question...

WHY would Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have become drow? They were gods - I see no reason for them to look like drow, only Dark Elves. If they appear as drow, they are choosing to do so, nothing more.

Doesn't Mielikki also like to dance under the moonlight in forest glades?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2698 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  05:37:06  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eilistraee goes far beyond dancing under the moon, tho (and I guess that a lot of goddesses would like that). Even tho she welcomes any race, she's all about her people (which is also why she chose to take their appearance, exile, etc... she basically chose to be one of them, rather than stayinh in Arvandor and becoming a goddess of beauty and/or leisure among the elves. That's why IMO it's not easy to associate her--or other drow gods--with other pantheons. She's too actively dedicated to the drow). Her focus on spreading joy and creativity also puts her closer to Lliira than Mielikki IMO.

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1458 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  21:10:00  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

The implication seems to be that the power of the gods did not rely on mortals before this moment.

So how did divine power on Toril work before the Time of Troubles then?

Without relying on mortals.
For how much of local presence they can maintain, anyway.
Which isn't the same as total power they have: e.g. Elemental Lords are Greater powers, but on a given Prime world may act as effectively Lesser, simply because they don't bother to shoulder their way in and look after their followers.
That may experience long-term changes - dry up from overexerting or grow from collecting petitioners and absorbing them in the domain.
And may be more important, as it should matter more in direct conflicts and in exactly how far the given god is from becoming a weird floaty thing in Astral.
And even if locally the deity never adds spheres of control to the portfolio nor grows in effective status, extra power may well be invested to expand into other worlds, which may also greatly increase overall survivability.
Either way, since some "foreign" gods (such as those from Finnish pantheon) and Elemental Lords had a choice to try and expand their influence on Abeir-Toril/Realmspace or skip the opportunity and go somewhere else, there must have been enough of cookies for them in some or other form to be worth whatever deal Ao had with them - and with strings THAT thick attached.
quote:
Did the faith of mortals just flow to all the gods equally, so they didn't have to worry about how big their churches were? If it flowed to them all equally, why would they even get into fights about things?

Presumably, based on number and perceived importance of items on the portfolios they have.
As to the conflicts - it would make sense if they need some minimum of worship to count as still having the "chair" at all, rather than see it handed to another.
And obviously, they may simply have incompatible goals, as in "promote X" vs. "promote Y".

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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30233 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  21:29:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Considering that we do have pre-ToT, canon references to deities dwindling from a lack of worship, I would say that worship was always a factor in their power level -- but that it wasn't the only factor. Maybe areas of influence, or number of temples, or some other factors were also a part of their overall strength, and Ao's decree changed things so that it was purely driven by worship and nothing else.

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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2015 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  22:05:58  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would agree with Wooly, especially because, as I said before, many of the gods existed before their followers, which means they didn't need worship to sustain them. However, perhaps by some unknown decree, having worshipers helped with their power, so even though it takes power to create followers (like a race), it paid off in the end because worship gained them more power (like an investment).

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sleyvas
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USA
5841 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2017 :  00:16:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Considering that we do have pre-ToT, canon references to deities dwindling from a lack of worship, I would say that worship was always a factor in their power level -- but that it wasn't the only factor. Maybe areas of influence, or number of temples, or some other factors were also a part of their overall strength, and Ao's decree changed things so that it was purely driven by worship and nothing else.



Yeah, if we were to equate temples and other material aspects to somehow working along with my battery concept of before... Ao essentially may have made it that a temple can't "store" worship energy for the god to draw from. So, the god has to take it in in that moment, and any excess is lost.... which would also encourage gods not to waste excess and instead use it to smack each other.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6298 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2017 :  01:41:24  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Moander didn't exist in Realmslore until introduced in 2E (Azure Bonds, etc), where it was (retroactively) asserted that Moander was once a Realms deity of great power. Later 2E Realmslore (Arcane Ages, Faiths & Avatars, etc) described Moander's "1E" and "pre-1E" status as one of the most ancient Greater Powers in the Realms. Moander's pre-2E "history" in the Realms was then expanded from 3E onward, lol.

But Moander circa 2E was a weak deity, recently reawakened from dormancy or retrieved from exile or whatever - his faith in the Realms (prior to the ToT and thus 2E) had apparently been almost entirely eradicated, his reappearance in the Realms (in Azure Bonds) depended on the last (infected) "Survivors" of a Cult of Moander. It seems that Moander's stature as a god was intimately tied to the strength of his followers prior to Ao's proclamation at the birth of 2E ... and I speculate that perhaps Ao's 2E rules may have changed conditions enough that the last vestige of Moander's living faith on the Realms could restore his divine stature. Why else should Moander have languished so long while his faithful continued to diminish?

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Jul 2017 01:45:34
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see
Learned Scribe

190 Posts

Posted - 15 Jul 2017 :  06:29:36  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Moander didn't exist in Realmslore until introduced in 2E (Azure Bonds, etc)

Hmm? To quote the Old Gray Box, Cyclopedia of the Realms, p.17.

"Moander, a dark and forgotten god of the Realms, whose main temple was in what is now ruined Yulash, and whose faith died years before the erection of the Standing Stone and the coming of the Dalesmen. His/Her/Its symbol was an open palm with a mouth set in its center."
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