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Irennan
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Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  20:21:08  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The shared part is only a sacred pool known as Evergold (or something like that), not the whole Realm.

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CorellonsDevout
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2052 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  20:51:42  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know Sune and Hanali both don't reside in Arvandor (sorry, that wasn't what I meant by the neighborhood analogy). They used to reside in Arborea (which later became Arvandor), but they both had their own realms. Hanali's petitioners went to Arvandor, and Sune's followers went to her realm. Arborea was the "neighborhood".

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Jul 2017 20:57:36
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Irennan
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Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  21:37:32  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Arborea is much larger than a neighborhood, given that Arvandor is only a layer of it. However, in the Great Wheel cosmology, Brightwater (Sune's Realm) is found in Arvandor/Olympus, and Arvandor isn't an elf-only realm.

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CorellonsDevout
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2052 Posts

Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  22:55:09  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know. That's what I was trying to get at. Perhaps Arborea as a city, or even a country, would have been a better analogy, but that's what I was trying to explain with the neighborhood analogy ^^; And I know in the GW cosmology, Arvandor/Olympus wasn't an elf-only realm. IIRC, the "elven" part of it was Arianth (sp?) but Arvandor later became synonymous with Arianth).

But even with Brightwater being part of Arvandor/Olympus, it's still its own place, so the follower of Sune and Hanali would either end up in Brightwater, or Arianth, based on what was discussed before. That was my original intent of the neighborhood analogy. The "houses" are the gods' realms within Arborea/Arvandor, which is the "neighborhood".

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Jul 2017 23:10:51
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1177 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  13:53:24  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure what what cosmology the 5e realms even uses honestly.
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Irennan
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2729 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  14:04:25  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It pretty much is the Great Wheel, with the addition of Feywild/Shadowfell, and with Elemental Chaos in place of the various elemental planes.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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30340 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  14:13:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

It pretty much is the Great Wheel, with the addition of Feywild/Shadowfell, and with Elemental Chaos in place of the various elemental planes.



The Great Wheel mk II, then. Wheel 2.0?

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KanzenAU
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Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  14:28:25  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be honest, I think the truth is that we just don't know. The Great Wheel 2.0 is the best guess, but there is no official word. Recent texts show links to both planes of the Great Wheel (eg. Mechanus) and planes of the World Tree (eg. Dwarfhome). But these links are usually portrayed from a mortal level - we just don't know. Even the 5e DMG talks mainly about the Great Wheel, while also mentioning the World Tree of the Forgotten Realms. I think we'll have to wait until a product with planar travel before we know the truth - though I still think Great Wheel 2.0 is the best bet.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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CorellonsDevout
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2052 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  15:24:35  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The DMG mentions both? I don't actually have this sourcebook yet. Wasn't FR the "default" setting now?

Maybe it was their way of trying to combine the two cosmologies lol,

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 13 Jul 2017 15:29:29
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2729 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  15:33:42  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

To be honest, I think the truth is that we just don't know. The Great Wheel 2.0 is the best guess, but there is no official word. Recent texts show links to both planes of the Great Wheel (eg. Mechanus) and planes of the World Tree (eg. Dwarfhome). But these links are usually portrayed from a mortal level - we just don't know. Even the 5e DMG talks mainly about the Great Wheel, while also mentioning the World Tree of the Forgotten Realms. I think we'll have to wait until a product with planar travel before we know the truth - though I still think Great Wheel 2.0 is the best bet.



Wasn't the world tree mention only to give an example of how mrtals' understanding of the plane varies?

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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30340 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  15:46:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've suggested in the past that the planes accessible from the Great Tree are simply domains on or layers of planes on the Great Wheel. It doesn't affect deity homes being retconned from one place to another, but it provides a plausible explanation for how both the Wheel and the Tree could be correct.

I've also stated that I don't think the planes of the Wheel are actually in a wheel -- by definition, they can't be. If planes are infinite, then they cannot be constrained in any one shape. However, the Wheel concept comes from how the planes are accessed from the Outlands, where the gate towns leading to the major planes are laid out in a circle.

This approach also allows for the inclusion of oddball planes. There can be any number of them out there; but they don't have gate towns and thus aren't considered to lie on the Wheel.

The other Wheel 2.0 planes are a bit more problematic to fit into the Great Wheel... I prefer to think of the Feywild as a kind of lesser Faerie, "closer" to the Prime of the Realms than Faerie is; maybe it's the first layer of Faerie. Ditto for the Shadowfell -- it's the closest part of the plane of Shadow. As for the Elemental Chaos, it strikes me as what you'd get if the elemental planes touched Limbo directly -- so again, the Chaos is just "closer" to the Realms than the elemental planes.

I should also note that I have decided that Earth, Toril, Krynn, Oerth, etc, are all just layers of one Prime Material Plane. Since each of the major settings has slightly different rules, it's hard to say they're on one plane. So then you have either a whole bunch of Primes that all touch the same set of planes -- or you use the existing planar ideas and go with the idea of layers.

At least, that's my thinking on planar matters. I've got all the Planescape material (save for the Sketchbook), but I've only read a small part of it, so I'm hardly an expert. I just go with what I know and try to figure out how everything can be mashed together into one thing.

Personally, I'd prefer to just stick with the original Great Wheel, and ignore the Tree and those odd 2.0 planes... But since my preference is not universal, I've pondered how to incorporate both the old planar lore and the new.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Jul 2017 15:54:37
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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  17:07:10  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always thought the Tree and Wheel could be combined, too.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2729 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  17:46:39  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Divine domains were subplanes within the outer planes in the Great Wheel 2.0, so I'm assuming that the World Tree planes also became subplanes in the Great Wheel 2.0, as Wooly said.

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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  18:36:03  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree, which is why I suggested they could be combined.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  18:51:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Then you'd need to have deities like Eilistraee and Sharindlar (sp) there too (drow and dwarven deities of beauty). Although those two are pretty close to each other in the Great Wheel, having both their Realms within Nidaveliir, in Ysgard (after the whole ordeal at the end of 3e, in 5e/post-Sundering Eilistraee might have her realm fully in Arborea->Arvandor, tho, which would put her close to Hanali and Sune).

Going back to check F&A, my impression is that Sune and Hanali have a shared part of their Realms, but it's not ike their whole Realms overlap.

Your idea does make sense, tho, and I guess that the World Tree was WotC's attempt at organzing deities in a similar way.


And...

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I thought that pre-4e, Hanali was in Arvandor and Sune was in Brightwater. However, I think portals connected the Realms, so the two gods had access to one another, if you will, and, according to DD, they share the waters of Evergold. But DD also states that Hanali's realm is in Arvandor.

With good-aligned deities, I would think most are sympathetic to their petitioners (Helm and Tyr may be a bit more rigid), but most would want to give their petitioners a good afterlife. And Sune and Hanali being allies, I could see them either giving the soul a choice, or not bemoaning Kelemvor's choice if he deems the soul belongs with Hanali instead of Sune, or vice versa.


Okay, its kind of hard to describe how I am picturing it (and I can't even picture it - its in at least 4 dimensional space), but I think CorellonsDevout has the right of it.

Its not really so much as 'the same place' as we would think of it in our three-dimensional world. Think of it like how the ethereal, prime, and astral (not to mention the Feywild & Shadowfell) all overlap. They occupy the same 'space' in 3D terms, but not in 4D terms (and I am not even getting into the concept of 11-dimensional space, some of which I am not sure even deities can access to any great degree). So basically, they can 'phase in & out' of each other Realms, since they are all the same Realm on some levels (but different on most others)*. Perhaps the Pool of Evergold is the common factor in all their realms (which works well, since I think all those 'Pools of..." in Realmslore/D&D are conduits for both energy and matter-transference). Basically, to our (mortal) way of thinking, its like that pool is in a single 'room' in all their realms. Its the 'commonality point'.

99.9% of this DOES NOT MATTER in-game, from a D&D character perspective, all these Gods really are different Gods (and on most levels that is true), and these 'Divine Realms' are separate Realms (and once again, for the most part - to a mortal perspective - that is true). This sort of conjecture only starts to matter when we enter the 'Overgod Tier' (and higher), which is more of a thought-exercise so some of us can figure out the mechanisms behind the cosmology (really only good for writers, designers, and some DMs with too much time on their hands). It should never actually 'come into play', not even in a novel (maybe just some subtle hints to the effect that "all is not what it seems").

And from what I recall, Eilistraee already has an alias among human worshipers. I don't think she would make a good Sune/Aphrodite/Hanali. For the most part, the idea that 'this god is really this other god' should apply almost exclusively to Greater Gods. At intermediate and lower tiers they should just be normal aliases that mortals would even know about.


*EDIT:
Only just getting to read some of the other posts that came after - its like what Wooly says abut 'layers'. Lots and lots (infinite?) of layers can fit in just one Plane (and a Dimension isn't the same as a Plane, precisely*). For example, the Material Plane is really a Dimension, composed of five major planes - The Prime, and the four elemental planes. And layers fit within planes (think of them as different 'bandwidths' along a certain spectrum), quasi and demi (& 'pocket') planes are created between the major planes (so not 'layers'). Quasi's may actually go between Dimensions, now that I think about it.

Ravenloft ('The Domains of Dread') may have started out as a demi-plane, but it has been 'eaten' by the Shadowfell, and is now probably a 'layer' within that plane (perhaps something similar happened to Faerie, the original homeland of The Fey, with the Feywild... which became named after them retroactively).


*LOL - a footnote within a footnote...
Now that I think about even more, 'Planes' would be layers within Dimensions. So basically everything is a header for a sub-group below it. Dimensions would then be layers within a universe, and Universes are layers within a Multiverse (and Multiverses are the layers within the Omniverse... but now my head is starting to hurt).

I am having a 'Rick & Morty' moment.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jul 2017 19:20:19
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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  19:26:13  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol like those Russian dolls (forgot what they're called). You open one, and inside is another doll, and inside that one is yet another doll...

Sweet water and light laughter
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30340 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  19:42:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol like those Russian dolls (forgot what they're called). You open one, and inside is another doll, and inside that one is yet another doll...



Matryoshka, or Russian nesting dolls. The obvious inspiration for The Living Doll, a minor character in the animated version of The Tick. "I'm full of tinier men!"

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CorellonsDevout
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2052 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  19:43:26  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Lol like those Russian dolls (forgot what they're called). You open one, and inside is another doll, and inside that one is yet another doll...



Matryoshka, or Russian nesting dolls. The obvious inspiration for The Living Doll, a minor character in the animated version of The Tick. "I'm full of tinier men!"



Lol thank you.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2729 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  20:42:11  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Okay, its kind of hard to describe how I am picturing it (and I can't even picture it - its in at least 4 dimensional space), but I think CorellonsDevout has the right of it.

Its not really so much as 'the same place' as we would think of it in our three-dimensional world. Think of it like how the ethereal, prime, and astral (not to mention the Feywild & Shadowfell) all overlap. They occupy the same 'space' in 3D terms, but not in 4D terms (and I am not even getting into the concept of 11-dimensional space, some of which I am not sure even deities can access to any great degree). So basically, they can 'phase in & out' of each other Realms, since they are all the same Realm on some levels (but different on most others)*. Perhaps the Pool of Evergold is the common factor in all their realms (which works well, since I think all those 'Pools of..." in Realmslore/D&D are conduits for both energy and matter-transference). Basically, to our (mortal) way of thinking, its like that pool is in a single 'room' in all their realms. Its the 'commonality point'.

99.9% of this DOES NOT MATTER in-game, from a D&D character perspective, all these Gods really are different Gods (and on most levels that is true), and these 'Divine Realms' are separate Realms (and once again, for the most part - to a mortal perspective - that is true). This sort of conjecture only starts to matter when we enter the 'Overgod Tier' (and higher), which is more of a thought-exercise so some of us can figure out the mechanisms behind the cosmology (really only good for writers, designers, and some DMs with too much time on their hands). It should never actually 'come into play', not even in a novel (maybe just some subtle hints to the effect that "all is not what it seems").


No, no, it's quite easy to visualize, if you "project" it on a 3D space. A very simple but telling example would be 2 solids sharing a common surface, but occupying different volumes (like 2 cones that share the same base, but whose tips point in opposite directions). The shared base would be the "archetype" you were talking about, from which the various aspects and their realms emerge.

quote:
And from what I recall, Eilistraee already has an alias among human worshipers. I don't think she would make a good Sune/Aphrodite/Hanali. For the most part, the idea that 'this god is really this other god' should apply almost exclusively to Greater Gods. At intermediate and lower tiers they should just be normal aliases that mortals would even know about.


IIRC, the humans who worship Eilistraee (there are quite a bit of them) just call her Eilistraee (or any of her normal titles). Although I agree that she wouldn't make a good Aphrodite. Her beauty has indeed been described as "the answer to that question which every soul felt, but no words could frame", but her personality just doesn't fit the archetype. Nor would Sharindlar, who's more about fertility than passion.

In general, I'm not a fan of deities being actually other deities, and the 4e version of it brought a lot of lore problems with it. However, the concept itself does make some sense in the larger scheme of the Multiverse. If I had to use that concept, I'd leave lesser deities out of it too, because they tend to be local powers and more closely tied to their worlds and/or people.

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CorellonsDevout
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USA
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Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  21:46:02  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If we're using Greek gods, if anything, I think Eilistraee is most like Artemis. That's actually who she kind of reminds me of.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 13 Jul 2017 22:02:43
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2729 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  22:12:12  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

If we're using Greek gods, if anything, I think Eilistraee is most like Artemis. That's actually who she kind of reminds me of.




Ed has actually specifically said that the two of them couldn't be more different. And I agree: aside from being skilled with the bow and associated with the moon, Eilistraee has a completely different personality and outlook from Artemis. Her being joyful despite all, and wanting to celebrate and create beauty everywhere she goes, her having nothing to do with chastity and instead being intended as a goddess of fertility (to help the drow flourish again), and more. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=27#129882

EDIT: On a side note, the answer as a whole and the one above are very interesting reads about what inspired Ed for various characters or places.

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Edited by - Irennan on 13 Jul 2017 22:15:26
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  22:17:06  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I stand corrected lol. That's an interesting tidbit of info, but was said before I joined the Keep lol, so no wonder I haven't seen it before.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2729 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  22:19:33  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I stand corrected lol. That's an interesting tidbit of info, but was said before I joined the Keep lol, so no wonder I haven't seen it before.



IIRC, I joined about a year before you, but I stumbled upon that link in another conversation, either here or on the WotC forums, I can't remember.

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see
Learned Scribe

191 Posts

Posted - 13 Jul 2017 :  23:27:35  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Near the end of Waterdeep, Ao basically says "now the gods are reliant on mortals". Talos straight out states that that seems crazy. The implication seems to be that the power of the gods did not rely on mortals before this moment.

So how did divine power on Toril work before the Time of Troubles then?

The exact same way.

The first mention of FR deities having their power dependent on worship was in "Down-to-earth Divinity" in Dragon #54 (October 1981), where Ed Greenwood wrote:
quote:
This follows the notion that gods possess power relative to the worship they receive, but I have deliberately left this idea vague and undeveloped, for players would love to learn such mechanisms in order to influence the relative power of gods for their own ends, and that type of manipulation upsets the balance of a campaign very quickly.

The original 1987 Forgotten Realms Campaign Set, in the Cyclopedia of the Realms book, p.10, also said, "The 'gods' of the Realms, also called Powers . . . grow or diminish in personal power in relation to the number of mortal worshippers they possess."

And, of course, the 1980 Deities & Demigods, p.8, established as the AD&D default, "However, it is true that a god's power often increases and decreases as the number of his worshipers varies."

So, at the end of the Avatar Crisis, Ao got up on Mount Waterdeep, and announced to the gods that from now on, they'd have to follow the very same rules for power that they always did in FR canon. Followed by the gods objecting as if it were something new.

Edited by - see on 13 Jul 2017 23:29:11
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
786 Posts

Posted - 14 Jul 2017 :  02:28:43  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

The DMG mentions both? I don't actually have this sourcebook yet. Wasn't FR the "default" setting now?

Maybe it was their way of trying to combine the two cosmologies lol,



quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Wasn't the world tree mention only to give an example of how mrtals' understanding of the plane varies?



The 5e DMG mentions the 3 "most commonly known" cosmological models:

-The Great Wheel (2.0)*, that is teh default for 5e
-The World Tree (it mentions both, Nordic Yggdrasil and the FR version)
-The World Axis (yeah, the 4e one)

It also gives advise about other cosmological models as well, but without the emphasis of those 3.

The DMG also says that none of those models is truer than the others, and that, as Irennan says, all of them (even the Great Wheel) are what mortals believe the planes are organized. In the true sense of planar cosmology, we mortals cannot (and never will) understand the true nature of the planes.

As for the "default setting", according to devs is "the D&D multiverse", though they only release products focused in the Sword Coast.

*EDIT:

I like to think that the Great Wheel 2.0 is like a revision of the original one. Like if the sages of Sigil saw the canon cosmology nowadays and said: "What are those new planes we don't have registered yet?", and had to update their cosmological model.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 14 Jul 2017 02:34:48
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