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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jul 2017 : 21:15:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Prior to Ao's proclamation, the gods had more freedom to do whatever they wanted without consequence. Post ToT, only Cyric and Mask (along with Mystra, and later, Shar) conducted their godly affairs with the sort of reckless freedom enjoyed by all 1E-era deities - and it could be argued that all but Cyric (and perhaps even Cyric) continued to obey the strictures defined by Ao and their portfolios.
Looking at it from the point of view of just reading the Realmslore in 1E and 2E ... there wasn't much "soap opera of the gods", the gods were largely uninvolved and rarely mentioned. Indeed, adventures/modules involved Realms deities less often than foreign/interloping deities or archfiends and the like. The gods just didn't seem directly active.
But they did seem indirectly active. Specifically, their Faiths and followers were always visible, building more churches and temples, destroying more churches and temples, engaging each other in all sorts of ad-hoc miniature holy alliances, wars, crusades, jihads, inquisitions, and the like. More often than not an adventure/module would feature some priest or group of priests or monks or pilgrims of this or that god doing something in the "background" (typically some kind of deadly conflict with their adversaries from some other faith). We didn't really personify the gods, "Mystra attacked Cyric" or "Tempus marched on the city", we instead read about their clergy and churches performing such actions instead. It's almost as if the gods in 1E were always as "well behaved" as in 2E, but more tolerant of (less accountable for) the indiscretions of their followers.
Interestingly, the 2E Arcane Ages materials presented "retro-1E" gaming rules. Campaigns in the pre-ToT Realms logically must have followed 1E rules (and, indeed, "pre-retro-1E" rules prior to Netheril's Fall), so 2E rules to simulate 1E rules were provided, lol. The "1E" rules didn't have much to say about gods and their clergy. But the "pre-1E" rules operated differently, depending on a more direct and personal interaction between the priest and the deity, the deity's of the times seemed more interested in how their Faithful behaved (and in what was being done in their names), they encouraged and rewarded behaviour of their proxies in very definite fashions.
So Ao lays down new rules during the ToT to make the gods behave again by making them more reliant on their followers (since, as I've said before, the creator gods didn't need the worship of followers in order to be powerful). But having followers has always benefited them, for one reason or another.
It's interesting that pre-ToT, the gods were more indirectly active via their followers. You would think being more reliant on their followers would make them want more action from said followers. Now, I fully admit I am not edition savvy when it comes to the earlier editions. I've bought some older sourcebooks, and read quite a number of the novels, but I don't really know the difference between 1E and 2E.  So, post-ToT, the gods became more directly involved, yet were also more dependent on the faith of their followers to give them power. Perhaps that is *why* they became more directly involved. What better way to help keep the faith than appear directly to your followers? There have been historical instances of the deities appearing directly and intervening, but they were rarer. Hmm... |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2017 : 00:15:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
The issue with that is the 'one deity per portfolio rule' only applies to individual pantheons. This is why we have Kelemvor as the deity of death / the dead in the Faerunian Pantheon, Osiris as the deity of both the death and the dead for the Mulhorandi Pantheon, Dumathoin as the guardian of the dead in the Dwarven Pantheon, Sehanine Moonbow as the goddess of death among the Elvish Pantheon, Segojan Earthcaller as the deity of the dead for the Gnomish Pantheon, Urogalan as the deity of death for the Halfling Pantheon, and Yurtrus as the deity of death among the Orcish Pantheon. They are fighting for that sweet, sweet death-juice.
Actually, this was discussed somewhere (it may have just been on the old WotC forums, but there were definitely 'official type' personages involved).
Faerūn's 'Death God' is also the Realmspace Death God. He acts as a 'clearing house' for souls, sending them off to whatever pantheon is in charge of them. This may actually be part of Jergal's job, as seneschal. This came up when we are were discussing what happens when a Shou expatriate dies in Faerūn - where does he go? They get 'sorted' as part of the Faerūnian pantheon (and may stay there, if thats THEIR mythos).
Now, logically I would think that means someone who dies in Kara-Tur gets sorted-out by Yen-Wang-Yeh and sent to Faerūn's pantheon, but according to the out-come of that discussion, NO, they go to Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor's Realm FIRST, regardless of where they died (and like I said, that's probably because that's where Jergal can be found... and the Wall of the Faithless). I actually see Faerūn's Death God's realm as an adjunct to Jergal's Realm (and Jergal is the TRUE Realmspace Death God), but that's just supposition based on the fact that 'persons in the know' said "everyone goes to Kelemvor's Realm" (The Fugue Plane). Thus, I theorize The Fugue Plane itself is Jergal's Domain. The City of Death just belongs to whoever is occupying Faerūn's Death-God chair.
I remember that discussion.  I believe it was on the official forums over a decade ago now, lol.
Actually, I think it makes more sense to say that all the dead get sent to the Fugue Plane. In the fugue plane the death deity of each pantheon sends servitors to pick them up. Once that happens, they are brought back to said deities domain to be sorted, judged, whatever is suitable for that pantheon. In the case of the Faerūnian Pantheon, Jergal, Kelemvor, whoever sorts them and then they are picked up by their respective deities servitors.
Faithless/False who had previously served the Faerūnian deities get the Wall of the Faithless (if it still exists). Faithless/False who served a previous pantheon... who knows? Maybe they also get handed over to the Wall. Maybe they are left to wander the Fugue Plane, ultimately to be nabbed by demons, or maybe they are punished or judged differently by the deities of their pantheon.
In any case, I think that makes more "logical" sense, regardless of what canon happens to say on the matter. (I do not think there is any out-and-out contradictions though.)
Of course, that still does not solve the problem of what happens to people who strongly worship deities who are part of two or more pantheons. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2017 : 00:23:45
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
So, post-ToT, the gods became more directly involved, yet were also more dependent on the faith of their followers to give them power. Perhaps that is *why* they became more directly involved. What better way to help keep the faith than appear directly to your followers? There have been historical instances of the deities appearing directly and intervening, but they were rarer. Hmm...
LOL. That makes a lot of sense, actually. Of course, it also makes Ao look like a dummy. The deities get more actively involved because of his punishment, blow up the world, making everything WORSE than before he destroyed the Tablets of Fate. So, by 5th Edition, he has to un-Sunder the Realms and re-create the Tablets of Fate to fix the problem he caused with the original punishment.  |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2017 : 00:35:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
So, post-ToT, the gods became more directly involved, yet were also more dependent on the faith of their followers to give them power. Perhaps that is *why* they became more directly involved. What better way to help keep the faith than appear directly to your followers? There have been historical instances of the deities appearing directly and intervening, but they were rarer. Hmm...
LOL. That makes a lot of sense, actually. Of course, it also makes Ao look like a dummy. The deities get more actively involved because of his punishment, blow up the world, making everything WORSE than before he destroyed the Tablets of Fate. So, by 5th Edition, he has to un-Sunder the Realms and re-create the Tablets of Fate to fix the problem he caused with the original punishment.
The road to hell was paved with good intentions? lol
About your post above: as I said earlier (before my post that you just quoted), I think in the case of someone (I'll continue with the Halfling example) worshiping two deities in equal measure--Yondalla and Tymora in this case--this is where Kelemovr comes in. I know I remember reading somewhere that if the fate of a soul is contested, Kel presides over the debate and helps determine the soul's fate. So, if Yondalla and Tymora both really want this halfling soul, Kel is going to help them figure it out and determine whether the halfling belongs with Lady Luck or in the Green Fields.
OR, it's whether Yondalla or Tymora (or their servitors) gets to the soul first lol. Most demihumans are going to end up in the realm of their pantheon (elves go to Arvandor, halflings go to the Green Fields), unless their patron deity is outside that pantheon, like an elf worshiping Mielikki. In the case of the halfling, if Kel didn't preside over the dispute, the halfling would likely go to Yondalla, unless they were very Tymora-esque in nature. Meaning, their ethics and morals best aligned with Tymora, perhaps more than they do Yondalla.
But in general, yes, souls go to the Fugue Plane, and are then picked up by the servitors of their patron deity, and/or racial pantheon. The exception to this would be that sometimes elves go directly to Arvandor. Like, when an elf reaches "old age" they pass to Arvandor. I seem to remember reading that in the Complete Book of Elves, and I think there was a similar scene in Evermeet. In general, though, I think elves go to the Fugue Plane first, too. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 11 Jul 2017 00:40:01 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2017 : 01:28:18
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
About your post above: as I said earlier (before my post that you just quoted), I think in the case of someone (I'll continue with the Halfling example) worshiping two deities in equal measure--Yondalla and Tymora in this case--this is where Kelemovr comes in. I know I remember reading somewhere that if the fate of a soul is contested, Kel presides over the debate and helps determine the soul's fate. So, if Yondalla and Tymora both really want this halfling soul, Kel is going to help them figure it out and determine whether the halfling belongs with Lady Luck or in the Green Fields.
OR, it's whether Yondalla or Tymora (or their servitors) gets to the soul first lol. Most demihumans are going to end up in the realm of their pantheon (elves go to Arvandor, halflings go to the Green Fields), unless their patron deity is outside that pantheon, like an elf worshiping Mielikki. In the case of the halfling, if Kel didn't preside over the dispute, the halfling would likely go to Yondalla, unless they were very Tymora-esque in nature. Meaning, their ethics and morals best aligned with Tymora, perhaps more than they do Yondalla.
However, that is assuming the dispute is a deity of the Faerunian Pantheon and a Racial/Ethnic Pantheon. What happens if you end up with a really weird combination, of say a Gnome--let's take the racial element out of it--is worshiping both Geb of the Mulhorandi Pantheon and Luthic of the Orcish pantheon? LOL. Highly unlikely? Yeah. Weird. But not impossible. Of the billions who have died in the Realms, this issue must have been faced at one point or another.
...and of course, this is all post-Myrkul stuff. What about when Jergal was just part of the Netherese Pantheon, and there were many more ethnic human pantheons? Who settles the dispute then? 
It's the reason I think it makes sense that the Fugue Plane is just where all souls go (with special exceptions, like you mentioned about the elves, of course). From there the deity of death of whatever pantheon they served pick them up. Then they are sorted into whatever afterlife is in store for them.
I have to laugh at the thought of the soul going to whoever gets there first. Just imagine how hilarious that must be, it's almost a Monty Python skit.
I can just imagine an in-the-know evil soul hiding from its fate until a more desirable deity came to pick them up, and the servitors getting into an argument... and then it becomes clear that the mortal knew all the rules and exploited them in order to get a better afterlife.
Just imagine a hardcore rules-lawyer player, launching into a diatribe about why the servitor of Bane is wrong, and that he really gets to go with servitor of Sharess to that afterlife instead.
"But you donated money all the time to the Church of Bane!" "That was for political reasons, I gave much more money to the Church of Sharess purchasing hookers and drugs!" "You sold slaves!" "To purchase the hookers and drugs!" "The servitor of Bane was there first!" "I hid until the servitor of Sharess showed up, and she saw me first. The rules do not state first upon arrival, they state first to claim." |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2017 : 01:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
About your post above: as I said earlier (before my post that you just quoted), I think in the case of someone (I'll continue with the Halfling example) worshiping two deities in equal measure--Yondalla and Tymora in this case--this is where Kelemovr comes in. I know I remember reading somewhere that if the fate of a soul is contested, Kel presides over the debate and helps determine the soul's fate. So, if Yondalla and Tymora both really want this halfling soul, Kel is going to help them figure it out and determine whether the halfling belongs with Lady Luck or in the Green Fields.
OR, it's whether Yondalla or Tymora (or their servitors) gets to the soul first lol. Most demihumans are going to end up in the realm of their pantheon (elves go to Arvandor, halflings go to the Green Fields), unless their patron deity is outside that pantheon, like an elf worshiping Mielikki. In the case of the halfling, if Kel didn't preside over the dispute, the halfling would likely go to Yondalla, unless they were very Tymora-esque in nature. Meaning, their ethics and morals best aligned with Tymora, perhaps more than they do Yondalla.
However, that is assuming the dispute is a deity of the Faerunian Pantheon and a Racial/Ethnic Pantheon. What happens if you end up with a really weird combination, of say a Gnome--let's take the racial element out of it--is worshiping both Geb of the Mulhorandi Pantheon and Luthic of the Orcish pantheon? LOL. Highly unlikely? Yeah. Weird. But not impossible. Of the billions who have died in the Realms, this issue must have been faced at one point or another.
...and of course, this is all post-Myrkul stuff. What about when Jergal was just part of the Netherese Pantheon, and there were many more ethnic human pantheons? Who settles the dispute then?
It's the reason I think it makes sense that the Fugue Plane is just where all souls go (with special exceptions, like you mentioned about the elves, of course). From there the deity of death of whatever pantheon they served pick them up. Then they are sorted into whatever afterlife is in store for them.
You're probably right in that regard. Pre-Kel, all souls went to the Fugue Plane, then were taken by their respective god of death (or, if their fate was more certain, like a paladin of Tyr, for example), they are then taken directly by that deity--or servitor of said deity. Post-Kel, however, I think what I said before about Kelemvor helping to determine the fate of the contested soul applies.
quote:
I have to laugh at the thought of the soul going to whoever gets there first. Just imagine how hilarious that must be, it's almost a Monty Python skit.
I can just imagine an in-the-know evil soul hiding from its fate until a more desirable deity came to pick them up, and the servitors getting into an argument... and then it becomes clear that the mortal knew all the rules and exploited them in order to get a better afterlife.
Just imagine a hardcore rules-lawyer player, launching into a diatribe about why the servitor of Bane is wrong, and that he really gets to go with servitor of Sharess to that afterlife instead.
"But you donated money all the time to the Church of Bane!" "That was for political reasons, I gave much more money to the Church of Sharess purchasing hookers and drugs!" "You sold slaves!" "To purchase the hookers and drugs!" "The servitor of Bane was there first!" "I hid until the servitor of Sharess showed up, and she saw me first. The rules do not state first upon arrival, they state first to claim."
Lol the "whichever deity gets there first" was a more unlikely scenario, though I'm sure it's happened. I don't think an evil soul could fool its way to a better afterlife, as a soul is taken in by the deity that best aligns with its moral outlook and ethics. If the soul has a "black heart", I doubt Sharess would take him in lol. Though, if the soul did manage to fool the servitor and end up with Sharess instead of Bane, it would probably only be a matter of time before Sharess and the other petitioners realize the truth, and take appropriate measures lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 11 Jul 2017 01:49:23 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2017 : 13:35:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
About your post above: as I said earlier (before my post that you just quoted), I think in the case of someone (I'll continue with the Halfling example) worshiping two deities in equal measure--Yondalla and Tymora in this case--this is where Kelemovr comes in. I know I remember reading somewhere that if the fate of a soul is contested, Kel presides over the debate and helps determine the soul's fate. So, if Yondalla and Tymora both really want this halfling soul, Kel is going to help them figure it out and determine whether the halfling belongs with Lady Luck or in the Green Fields.
OR, it's whether Yondalla or Tymora (or their servitors) gets to the soul first lol. Most demihumans are going to end up in the realm of their pantheon (elves go to Arvandor, halflings go to the Green Fields), unless their patron deity is outside that pantheon, like an elf worshiping Mielikki. In the case of the halfling, if Kel didn't preside over the dispute, the halfling would likely go to Yondalla, unless they were very Tymora-esque in nature. Meaning, their ethics and morals best aligned with Tymora, perhaps more than they do Yondalla.
However, that is assuming the dispute is a deity of the Faerunian Pantheon and a Racial/Ethnic Pantheon. What happens if you end up with a really weird combination, of say a Gnome--let's take the racial element out of it--is worshiping both Geb of the Mulhorandi Pantheon and Luthic of the Orcish pantheon? LOL. Highly unlikely? Yeah. Weird. But not impossible. Of the billions who have died in the Realms, this issue must have been faced at one point or another.
...and of course, this is all post-Myrkul stuff. What about when Jergal was just part of the Netherese Pantheon, and there were many more ethnic human pantheons? Who settles the dispute then?
It's the reason I think it makes sense that the Fugue Plane is just where all souls go (with special exceptions, like you mentioned about the elves, of course). From there the deity of death of whatever pantheon they served pick them up. Then they are sorted into whatever afterlife is in store for them.
I have to laugh at the thought of the soul going to whoever gets there first. Just imagine how hilarious that must be, it's almost a Monty Python skit.
I can just imagine an in-the-know evil soul hiding from its fate until a more desirable deity came to pick them up, and the servitors getting into an argument... and then it becomes clear that the mortal knew all the rules and exploited them in order to get a better afterlife.
Just imagine a hardcore rules-lawyer player, launching into a diatribe about why the servitor of Bane is wrong, and that he really gets to go with servitor of Sharess to that afterlife instead.
"But you donated money all the time to the Church of Bane!" "That was for political reasons, I gave much more money to the Church of Sharess purchasing hookers and drugs!" "You sold slaves!" "To purchase the hookers and drugs!" "The servitor of Bane was there first!" "I hid until the servitor of Sharess showed up, and she saw me first. The rules do not state first upon arrival, they state first to claim."
We definitely have examples of this where the person worshipped across pantheon lines. For instance, there was a half elf that worshipped both Sune and Hanali Celanil (though 4e lore I think tried to make them one and the same). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2017 : 17:32:41
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I think that was from Heir of Sembia, if I am remembering the title right. 4e lore aside, Sune and Hanali are both goddesses of love, but they aren't exactly the same (much like the various death gods we mentioned earlier). In this case, I think it would come down to a) is the half-elf more Sune or Hanali in nature? b) did she pay homage to one even slightly more than the other? c) pre-Kelemvor, it comes back to (a), and whatever is in the half-elf's heart. Even if she thinks it is equal, the gods and their servitors are going to know what is in the deepest recesses of her heart. Post-Kel, if the two goddesses both wanted her, Kel would likely handle things.
Sune and Hanali are allies, so it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal. It would get interesting if the petitioner worshiped deities who were enemies, like the traitor-priestesses who worship Lolth, but also secretly Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. Though, again, I think in this instance, it would come down to what is in the priestesses' heart. If she pretended to be a Lolthite (for obvious reasons when it comes to drow society), but in her heart was a Vhaeraunite or Eilistraeen, than her soul would go to them instead. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2017 : 18:38:57
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Yeah, I would agree - whether you ascribe to theory that Jergal is the REAL Realmspace 'Death God' or not - that EVERYONE in Realmspace goes to the Fugue first. I am also sure other Crystal Spheres have their own version of 'The Fugue' (which I picture bordering the 'Mittlemarch' - the Border Ethereal). From there you go with with a proxy (and fiends/angels count as proxies in this regard) through a Gate to your 'judgement domain', which may or may not be your final 'resting place', depending upon said judgment. For Faerūnians, that 'place of judgment' would be the City of Death (which isn't a very creative name when you think about it, since theoretically every Crystal Sphere should have several of these attached to it - at least one per pantheon present).
Jergal probably has an army of those Charonadaemons ('little deaths') at his beck & call just for this purpose (and I a m also picturing them being a Jergal-specific version, maybe with an alien-looking skull and four arms coming out from its tattered cloak), guiding the dead to their judgements. And in FR, they probably have a secondary duty of shooing-off any other fiends that are trying to pick-up 'stray souls' for themselves (being that FR has its own options for 'those without a god').
Edit:
Because I think all things are connected (despite having a recent micro-rant about how we shouldn't over-connect FR lore), I was just looking for an 'umbrella term' to encompass ALL the different versions of The Fugue into one mega-plane. Much as I picture the Prime Material being a single plane that got shattered during the Godswar, I think most planes all mirror each other in some way, and most of them are still (fairly) solid planes. Thus, The Ethereal would have 'layers' within it, which would include the normal Border Ethereal, The Ethereal (The Aethers), and the Deep Ethereal (that uncharted region that coincides with the space between the Crystal Spheres in the Prime Material). But there should also be another one - the 'Misty realm of the recent dead', where the various fugues are located (so it touches the Border Ethereal and has portals to the upper and lower planes). It would be where souls go first, traveling quickly through the Borderlands into the Misty region, where they find their world's 'Fugue' (the whole place is really 'the fugue', but I'm not using that term since FR's calls that by that name specifically). Each Fugue corresponds to a different world, but they are all connected through this great region of shadows, like islands in a sea of mists.
So now it just occurs to me, we already have that with the Shadowfell. Just as it contains regions like the Domains of Dread (are those people really dead?  ), it should have these world-specific Fugues where the recent dead go, like a 'weigh station' for the damned. In that way, The Shadowfell retains some of its old-school flavor from the Plane of Shadows, having specific regions set aside for this sort of thing (and since its supposedly near-infinite, it would never get crowded). In fact, the Celts had a name for this 'misty region of the dead' and it was called 'Annwn', and they considered it an island. An island of the recent dead in the middle of a sea of mists. Sounds like the Shadowfell (and the 2e concept for Ravenloft setting) to me.
And all of this would be separate from, yet overlapping, with the Astral plane (which is a plane of the Mind {spirit}, and not of the soul). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jul 2017 19:10:40 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2017 : 23:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think that was from Heir of Sembia, if I am remembering the title right. 4e lore aside, Sune and Hanali are both goddesses of love, but they aren't exactly the same (much like the various death gods we mentioned earlier). In this case, I think it would come down to a) is the half-elf more Sune or Hanali in nature? b) did she pay homage to one even slightly more than the other? c) pre-Kelemvor, it comes back to (a), and whatever is in the half-elf's heart. Even if she thinks it is equal, the gods and their servitors are going to know what is in the deepest recesses of her heart. Post-Kel, if the two goddesses both wanted her, Kel would likely handle things.
Sune and Hanali are allies, so it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal. It would get interesting if the petitioner worshiped deities who were enemies, like the traitor-priestesses who worship Lolth, but also secretly Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. Though, again, I think in this instance, it would come down to what is in the priestesses' heart. If she pretended to be a Lolthite (for obvious reasons when it comes to drow society), but in her heart was a Vhaeraunite or Eilistraeen, than her soul would go to them instead.
Yeah, but the big thing there to note is those are still the same pantheon. The previous one literally crosses pantheons. While the two goddesses may be friendly, they would both crave the sustenance. However, it may simply come down to which of them shows up to collect her first, or they may allow her to choose. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 00:04:47
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think that was from Heir of Sembia, if I am remembering the title right. 4e lore aside, Sune and Hanali are both goddesses of love, but they aren't exactly the same (much like the various death gods we mentioned earlier). In this case, I think it would come down to a) is the half-elf more Sune or Hanali in nature? b) did she pay homage to one even slightly more than the other? c) pre-Kelemvor, it comes back to (a), and whatever is in the half-elf's heart. Even if she thinks it is equal, the gods and their servitors are going to know what is in the deepest recesses of her heart. Post-Kel, if the two goddesses both wanted her, Kel would likely handle things.
Sune and Hanali are allies, so it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal. It would get interesting if the petitioner worshiped deities who were enemies, like the traitor-priestesses who worship Lolth, but also secretly Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. Though, again, I think in this instance, it would come down to what is in the priestesses' heart. If she pretended to be a Lolthite (for obvious reasons when it comes to drow society), but in her heart was a Vhaeraunite or Eilistraeen, than her soul would go to them instead.
Yeah, but the big thing there to note is those are still the same pantheon. The previous one literally crosses pantheons. While the two goddesses may be friendly, they would both crave the sustenance. However, it may simply come down to which of them shows up to collect her first, or they may allow her to choose.
Very true, though even though they are of the same pantheon, Lolth and Vhaeraun have different realms. So do Sune and Hanali, of course, and that is why I said it would likely be determined either by whatever is in the half-elf's heart. Even if she worshiped both equally, it would come down to what her "true nature" is, and whether that nature aligns better with Sune or Hanali. Or, as you said, whoever gets there first, though I think that's a more unlikely scenario. I'm sure it's happened, and could happen more often when two deities, like Sune and Hanali are revered in equal amounts. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 13:30:08
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I think that was from Heir of Sembia, if I am remembering the title right. 4e lore aside, Sune and Hanali are both goddesses of love, but they aren't exactly the same (much like the various death gods we mentioned earlier). In this case, I think it would come down to a) is the half-elf more Sune or Hanali in nature? b) did she pay homage to one even slightly more than the other? c) pre-Kelemvor, it comes back to (a), and whatever is in the half-elf's heart. Even if she thinks it is equal, the gods and their servitors are going to know what is in the deepest recesses of her heart. Post-Kel, if the two goddesses both wanted her, Kel would likely handle things.
Sune and Hanali are allies, so it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal. It would get interesting if the petitioner worshiped deities who were enemies, like the traitor-priestesses who worship Lolth, but also secretly Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. Though, again, I think in this instance, it would come down to what is in the priestesses' heart. If she pretended to be a Lolthite (for obvious reasons when it comes to drow society), but in her heart was a Vhaeraunite or Eilistraeen, than her soul would go to them instead.
Yeah, but the big thing there to note is those are still the same pantheon. The previous one literally crosses pantheons. While the two goddesses may be friendly, they would both crave the sustenance. However, it may simply come down to which of them shows up to collect her first, or they may allow her to choose.
Very true, though even though they are of the same pantheon, Lolth and Vhaeraun have different realms. So do Sune and Hanali, of course, and that is why I said it would likely be determined either by whatever is in the half-elf's heart. Even if she worshiped both equally, it would come down to what her "true nature" is, and whether that nature aligns better with Sune or Hanali. Or, as you said, whoever gets there first, though I think that's a more unlikely scenario. I'm sure it's happened, and could happen more often when two deities, like Sune and Hanali are revered in equal amounts.
Or maybe something like what happened with Persephone occurs. Her soul wanders between the two realms. Maybe even when she ultimately "dissolves" her "essence" becomes a keyed portal of sorts connecting both divine realms. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 13:35:10
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What if the soul is given choice. In the more recent lore, every soul, of any race, goes to the Fugue first, where Kelemvor judges them. Those who are judged faithful, await the coming of divine messengers to be led to their respective realms. What if both Hanali and Sune sent their messengers and the soul chose which one to follow. I assume that, at least in the case of good deities, they would be ok with mortals having a say on their own fate, especially deities that value freedom of choice and/or expression.
Not all fantasy needs to have deities treating mortals without any empathy, especially deities who--because of what they embody--should show empathy towards mortals. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Jul 2017 13:36:58 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 15:14:33
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Hanali and Sune don't share a Realm anymore? Does that still hold true in 5e?
I'm only asking because then a soul wouldn't have to make that particular choice (which, come to think of it, is probably why most pantheons have their 'afterlife' in the same Realm - FR is a bit weird in that its Gods are spread all over the place).
EDIT:
I think one of the few things I liked about the 4e 'god shake-up' was the combining of Hanali and Sune. I still think they did it pretty slip-shod (heavy-handed), but it works for me.
I'm thinking now - after looking a bit more into the Greco-Roman version (Aphrodite/Venus) that she should be a more primordial deity, and thus could have easily been worshiped by the Elves first. So its not so much that humans started worshiping an Elven/Sylvan god under an alias, but rather, they both discovered a deity of beauty that already existed. Since I think the Demiurge (and thanks for whoever gave me that so very long ago) was created at the moment THE FIRST split into the Divine Masculine and the Divine Feminine (creation for expediency's sake over creation just for creation's sake, or, 'art'), 'beauty' has to have come very soon after the desire to create.
And rereading the Aphrodite stuff just now, I realized that in my own homebrew, Over-Cosmology, Ymir = Uranus = 'The Prime Material". It all works. I love when things come full circle. I already had Gaea in there, with Ymir (joining her essence to his in order to save the material - the 'Firmament' - from completely disintegrating), and their child (born from Uranus's 'cast off' genitals) was Aphrodite (or Venus, which is just sune backwards... without the 'V'). So from the dying body of the First World - and the first 'sacrifice' - was born something beautiful. She would have many names - probably a different one for each culture who discovered her - but she is primal, and eternal. Sune and Hanali would thus be two Aspects of the archtype (and as I've said numerous times before, at those levels of power, there really is no difference in them being separate beings or not, because the Aspects would be autonomous). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jul 2017 15:30:49 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 15:22:46
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| 5e has returned all the outer planes back to the Great Wheel, so yeah, they should still share a realm. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 15:35:58
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Thanks.
It all makes more sense now. 'The Great Wheel' is the default cosmology, so it would/should be the place where 'the archtypes' reign supreme. Anyone traveling to Brightwater would see dozens of 'beauty deities' flitting about, from all different pantheons - just Aspects (Ubdertars) of the Archtype. The Archtype itself would be the Godly Domain itself (that is what I feel all godly Domains truly are - they are really 'the mind' of the God - when you seem them in some mortal-like, physical form you are just seeing an Avatar). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jul 2017 15:36:48 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 15:44:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thanks.
It all makes more sense now. 'The Great Wheel' is the default cosmology, so it would/should be the place where 'the archtypes' reign supreme. Anyone traveling to Brightwater would see dozens of 'beauty deities' flitting about, from all different pantheons - just Aspects (Ubdertars) of the Archtype. The Archtype itself would be the Godly Domain itself (that is what I feel all godly Domains truly are - they are really 'the mind' of the God - when you seem them in some mortal-like, physical form you are just seeing an Avatar).
Then you'd need to have deities like Eilistraee and Sharindlar (sp) there too (drow and dwarven deities of beauty). Although those two are pretty close to each other in the Great Wheel, having both their Realms within Nidaveliir, in Ysgard (after the whole ordeal at the end of 3e, in 5e/post-Sundering Eilistraee might have her realm fully in Arborea->Arvandor, tho, which would put her close to Hanali and Sune).
Going back to check F&A, my impression is that Sune and Hanali have a shared part of their Realms, but it's not ike their whole Realms overlap.
Your idea does make sense, tho, and I guess that the World Tree was WotC's attempt at organzing deities in a similar way. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Jul 2017 15:45:42 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 16:23:11
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I thought that pre-4e, Hanali was in Arvandor and Sune was in Brightwater. However, I think portals connected the Realms, so the two gods had access to one another, if you will, and, according to DD, they share the waters of Evergold. But DD also states that Hanali's realm is in Arvandor.
With good-aligned deities, I would think most are sympathetic to their petitioners (Helm and Tyr may be a bit more rigid), but most would want to give their petitioners a good afterlife. And Sune and Hanali being allies, I could see them either giving the soul a choice, or not bemoaning Kelemvor's choice if he deems the soul belongs with Hanali instead of Sune, or vice versa.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Jul 2017 17:20:34 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 20:10:26
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| Pre 3e, they both resided in Arborea. They should be again. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 20:15:40
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| True, I just kind of always thought of their realms as separate, even when they were both in Arborea. Kind of like how some of the Seldarine reside in Arvandor, but some have their own realms within Arvandor. Or, put another way, Arborea was the neighborhood, but some of the gods had their own houses XD. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 20:21:08
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| The shared part is only a sacred pool known as Evergold (or something like that), not the whole Realm. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 20:51:42
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I know Sune and Hanali both don't reside in Arvandor (sorry, that wasn't what I meant by the neighborhood analogy). They used to reside in Arborea (which later became Arvandor), but they both had their own realms. Hanali's petitioners went to Arvandor, and Sune's followers went to her realm. Arborea was the "neighborhood".
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Jul 2017 20:57:36 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 21:37:32
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| Arborea is much larger than a neighborhood, given that Arvandor is only a layer of it. However, in the Great Wheel cosmology, Brightwater (Sune's Realm) is found in Arvandor/Olympus, and Arvandor isn't an elf-only realm. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2017 : 22:55:09
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I know. That's what I was trying to get at. Perhaps Arborea as a city, or even a country, would have been a better analogy, but that's what I was trying to explain with the neighborhood analogy ^^; And I know in the GW cosmology, Arvandor/Olympus wasn't an elf-only realm. IIRC, the "elven" part of it was Arianth (sp?) but Arvandor later became synonymous with Arianth).
But even with Brightwater being part of Arvandor/Olympus, it's still its own place, so the follower of Sune and Hanali would either end up in Brightwater, or Arianth, based on what was discussed before. That was my original intent of the neighborhood analogy. The "houses" are the gods' realms within Arborea/Arvandor, which is the "neighborhood".
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Jul 2017 23:10:51 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 13:53:24
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| I'm not sure what what cosmology the 5e realms even uses honestly. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 14:04:25
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| It pretty much is the Great Wheel, with the addition of Feywild/Shadowfell, and with Elemental Chaos in place of the various elemental planes. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 14:13:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It pretty much is the Great Wheel, with the addition of Feywild/Shadowfell, and with Elemental Chaos in place of the various elemental planes.
The Great Wheel mk II, then. Wheel 2.0? |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 14:28:25
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| To be honest, I think the truth is that we just don't know. The Great Wheel 2.0 is the best guess, but there is no official word. Recent texts show links to both planes of the Great Wheel (eg. Mechanus) and planes of the World Tree (eg. Dwarfhome). But these links are usually portrayed from a mortal level - we just don't know. Even the 5e DMG talks mainly about the Great Wheel, while also mentioning the World Tree of the Forgotten Realms. I think we'll have to wait until a product with planar travel before we know the truth - though I still think Great Wheel 2.0 is the best bet. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 15:24:35
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The DMG mentions both? I don't actually have this sourcebook yet. Wasn't FR the "default" setting now?
Maybe it was their way of trying to combine the two cosmologies lol, |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 13 Jul 2017 15:29:29 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2017 : 15:33:42
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
To be honest, I think the truth is that we just don't know. The Great Wheel 2.0 is the best guess, but there is no official word. Recent texts show links to both planes of the Great Wheel (eg. Mechanus) and planes of the World Tree (eg. Dwarfhome). But these links are usually portrayed from a mortal level - we just don't know. Even the 5e DMG talks mainly about the Great Wheel, while also mentioning the World Tree of the Forgotten Realms. I think we'll have to wait until a product with planar travel before we know the truth - though I still think Great Wheel 2.0 is the best bet.
Wasn't the world tree mention only to give an example of how mrtals' understanding of the plane varies? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Power/Worship of Gods pre Time of Troubles
