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Misereor
Learned Scribe

135 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2017 :  12:51:04  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Near the end of Waterdeep, Ao basically says "now the gods are reliant on mortals". Talos straight out states that that seems crazy. The implication seems to be that the power of the gods did not rely on mortals before this moment.


The implication might also be that the Gods are now more loosely tied to their portfolios than before the ToT.

So what is the nature of a god post ToT, compared to other immortals of similar power, that may or may not be it's distant cousins?

- It is tied to a portfolio.
- It is capable of granting spells.
- It relies on worship.

Portfolios.
A portfolio is either an idea/concept or a natural phenomena. There are other beings tied to natural phenomena, namely Primordials, but they don't rely on worshippers.

Granting spells.
Primordials rarely bother with granting spells, but we know they are capable of doing so (Grumbar, Kossuth, etc). OTOH, gods pretty much need to grant spells to incentivize people into worshipping them.

Worship.
Primordials, who are tied to essentially the same thing as portfolios, don't require worship, but gods do. Once a god no longer receives worship, they fade away or even die entirely. That would not be possible if their existence was tied to their portfolios instead of worship.


So maybe gods were more closely tied to their portfolios before the ToT, able to draw power from them, and Ao's decree severed, or at least weakened, that connection.

It could make a convincing scenario for gods swapping portfolios left and right, splitting into separate personalities and then merging again, after the ToT. It could be because control of the portfolios is more of a faith thing now than determined by an 'elemental' connection (no pun intended).



What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2017 :  16:00:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

The issue with that is the 'one deity per portfolio rule' only applies to individual pantheons. This is why we have Kelemvor as the deity of death / the dead in the Faerunian Pantheon, Osiris as the deity of both the death and the dead for the Mulhorandi Pantheon, Dumathoin as the guardian of the dead in the Dwarven Pantheon, Sehanine Moonbow as the goddess of death among the Elvish Pantheon, Segojan Earthcaller as the deity of the dead for the Gnomish Pantheon, Urogalan as the deity of death for the Halfling Pantheon, and Yurtrus as the deity of death among the Orcish Pantheon. They are fighting for that sweet, sweet death-juice.

Actually, this was discussed somewhere (it may have just been on the old WotC forums, but there were definitely 'official type' personages involved).

Faerūn's 'Death God' is also the Realmspace Death God. He acts as a 'clearing house' for souls, sending them off to whatever pantheon is in charge of them. This may actually be part of Jergal's job, as seneschal. This came up when we are were discussing what happens when a Shou expatriate dies in Faerūn - where does he go? They get 'sorted' as part of the Faerūnian pantheon (and may stay there, if thats THEIR mythos).

Now, logically I would think that means someone who dies in Kara-Tur gets sorted-out by Yen-Wang-Yeh and sent to Faerūn's pantheon, but according to the out-come of that discussion, NO, they go to Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor's Realm FIRST, regardless of where they died (and like I said, that's probably because that's where Jergal can be found... and the Wall of the Faithless). I actually see Faerūn's Death God's realm as an adjunct to Jergal's Realm (and Jergal is the TRUE Realmspace Death God), but that's just supposition based on the fact that 'persons in the know' said "everyone goes to Kelemvor's Realm" (The Fugue Plane). Thus, I theorize The Fugue Plane itself is Jergal's Domain. The City of Death just belongs to whoever is occupying Faerūn's Death-God chair.



Now, getting back to my 'The Weave is just a GUI for magic' (I hear you can download the Weave10 upgrade for FREE ) comparison/theory: Portfolios are like drivers - only one program can use them at a time. However, other programs (Gods) can access them through the 'parent' program (so I suppose some highly-placed Gods act as API's - like DirectX for Windows). This is how Faerūn's Gods became 'supercharged' - by taking part in The Weave and using it as their 'Divine Magic Platform' of choice, the get to share in all the related Elan that gets passed through (like collecting a bit of the 'Death God' Elan even if its for someone else's worshipers). That means they get power even if someone dies (or whatever the deity in question has in its portfolio) on some other world in Realmspace, the Weave-using God (mostly those in Faerūn... Mystra probably built that pantheon using The Weave, after her {re}birth) still gets power from it.

I assume, after the ToT, this was no longer the case. I imagine the Archomentals (Elemental Lords) still had permission to use it for a time afterward (2e-3e), but only because they had no other option and Ao did not want that sort of major disruption in the Faithful. Once the Spellplague hit, all bets were off, because there was no more Weave.

And this leads me to think about other possibilities - in the 2e era, if a cleric was in a magic-dead (Weaveless) zone, their God would have to give them spells directly, or not at all (and if The Weave is also the method by which deities can 'hear' their faithful, the God may not even be aware their cleric was praying fr spells... unless they were specifically paying attention).

So the 'hear everything when their name is mentioned' definitely sounds like something Mystra personally added to The Weave, since her Chosen can use that ability as well. Think of it like 'Divine Twitter' (#Kelemvor LOL).

Now I want to do a list of deities and compare them to different programs. For example, Sune would be Facebook, but Sharess would definitely be Tinder.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jul 2017 16:04:30
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2017 :  16:16:39  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nah Sune would be Instagram!

Re: the Faerunian death god being the "prime" death god, this makes sense to me. We're led to believe that Maztican, Kara-Turan, and Zakharan peoples arrived much later than the Faerunian humans (PoP). So it makes sense that when those peoples arrive, they have to make use of the existing "OS".

Edit: And speaking of Death gods, I just re-read Faiths and Pantheons, and I can't help but notice Jergal's similarity in appearance to a spellweaver in the art of him. It made me re-read his description in Faiths and Avatars, and he's described as alien there too... another reason to bite into GK's Lord of the End of Everything piece.

Though I wonder who the original gods of death and murder were, before Jergal showed up...

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 10 Jul 2017 16:24:49
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2017 :  17:55:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You need to read Krash's article on Jergal* - he was a Spellweaver (its hinted at in other lore as well).

First, I think its really Jergal who is THE 'Death God' of Realmspace (as I already mentioned above). The others he gave power to - those are merely regional lieutenants (not that they realize it). He is running The Fugue - the others only own property there (and I am sure The Fugue has connection to the other pantheon's Death-Realms as well). Jergal's ascension pre-sated The Sundering, which means he predates DEATH. He is THE FIRST Realmsian God of Death: He is The Lord of the End of Everything.

As for more on my newest musings: I think Mystryl's way of doing things was a bit 'rougher' (in a 'Raw, Primal Magic' sort of way), but it was also less structured. It had more power behind it (because of the lack of restraints), but it was less formalized, and much more free-form. In fact, I would go so far as to theorize that 'Wizardly Magic' (the Schools of Magic) was something invented by Netheril, and only in its infancy when Mystryl fell. Before that, Sorcery would have reigned supreme - I think thats the kind of magic (or, at least one kind) that the Nether scrolls were all abut. How to manipulate 'primal forces' with incredible results.

When Mystra was born, the first thing she would have done (after propping the Weave back up) would have been to limit mortal access to Raw Magic (that parts canon - thats why spells were limited to 9th level post-Netheril). Her Weave became a massive, monolithic thing, almost as a juxtaposition to her former incarnation's more relaxed stance on Magic. She literally became 'The Tyrant of Magic', as so many of her naysayers accuse her of being. Maybe she thought the only way to avoid another Karsus' Folly to take complete control of ALL magic, and that would have meant divine as well. But being the clever goddess she was, she knew you can't just take stuff from other Gods and get away with it. She had to get them to relinquish some of their control willingly... and that meant 'sweetening the pot'.

And thats why she created her own 'Faerūnian Pantheon', based around HER. Its almost like a pantheon-within-a-pantheon... and 'inner circle' (Greater Gods) if you will. "Thats that don't comply, starve and die". At least, that was her goal. To the ones that used her weave, they now had access to ALL the energy (elan) generated by their portfolios, anywhere in Realmspace. Their power was magnified a hundredfold. This wuld help explain much; for example, what if Lolth jumped onboard? Seems a bit of a stretch, but does it really? There she was, licking her wounds and hating on the Seldarine down in hell. her body turned into a hideous travesty by Corellon himself. And HER, a mere 'demon queen'! Then this uppity goddess comes along with this new-fangled weave-thingy... a magical interface that could usurp quite a bit of power from Corellon (note that Elven High Magic - which was divinely augmented - eventually morphed into Weave-based, Epic Magic during this time period). Of course Araushnee... I mean 'Lolth'... jumped on the band-wagon (and along the way learned enough by watching Mystra, Selūne, and Shar to try to create her own Weave). She grabbed 'Dark Elves' as her portfolio, and ever looked back. Of course, this is when she probably started prompting her 'children' to spread to other worlds, through the Underlands (the Shadowdark), and the rest, as they say, "is history".

Thats just one example of how we can use all this Weave stuff to explain away all the changes between editions, even if it looks like continuity inconsistencies (because sometimes, when you change the laws of physics, the timeline itself has to be 'tweaked' along the way).

Oh (this just came to me) - The Dawn Cataclysm shoe-horns perfectly into this as well. Around this same time - those centuries following the fall of Netheril when Mystra was rebuilding her power-base by building a new, more powerful arch-Pantheon, is right when all these deities started having weird things happen to them. maybe Aumanator - being a bit of a tyrant himself - didn't follow suit with Mystra's plans for Divine magic, but a small, hitherto-barely-known 'god of Mornings' agreed... and got such a huge power-boost he grabbed Aumanator's spot. He tried to do the same for his girlfriend... and found her own portfolio was just TOO all-encompassing for the Weave's subroutines. It didn't go well for poor Tyche. Like I said, we can do so much with this McGuffin.

This casts Mystra in a less 'good' light, but are any deities truly 'good'? Mystra isn't supposed to be - she's supposed to be more neutral (and Mystra 2.0 slid further from neutrality where magic was concerned). Mystra was never as good as her church portrays her (they protect Red Wizards and Zhents!!!), and Shar probably isn't as 'pure evil' as some folks say (more like, she's bit nuts, but her insanity waxes and wanes, and in the interim, she does have her own opinions on how the universe should be, and what makes 'Mystra's plan' so much better than hers? She DOES have an argument). ALL Gods are 'good' to their own reasoning, which is based upon furthering their portfolios. How can Myrkul think death isn't 'good'? Its all a matter of perspective. Good and Evil always are.


*I'd provide a link, but the link I had no longer works.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jul 2017 18:00:11
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CorellonsDevout
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USA
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Posted - 10 Jul 2017 :  20:20:08  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I've reasoned that it had to do with the power they got just from their portfolios.

On most worlds, most of a god's might stems directly from the power of their church, but on Toril - and its probably because of The Weave* - the gods were able to get an enormous amount of their power just from folks partaking of things related to their portfolio. Now, some of that happens on other worlds, but somehow, this got vastly magnified on Toril (perhaps it also had to do with the 'One god per portfolio rule'? In earlier times, maybe dozens of gods shared portfolios, which would have lead to much smaller chunks of power coming their way from that source). For example, here on Earth we've had probably over a hundred 'death gods' who would have all had to share the wealth, as it were. On Toril, there was just Myrkul, and then Cyric and then Kelemvor (and originally Jergal). One god, getting all 'the juice' from all those deaths.


The issue with that is the 'one deity per portfolio rule' only applies to individual pantheons. This is why we have Kelemvor as the deity of death / the dead in the Faerunian Pantheon, Osiris as the deity of both the death and the dead for the Mulhorandi Pantheon, Dumathoin as the guardian of the dead in the Dwarven Pantheon, Sehanine Moonbow as the goddess of death among the Elvish Pantheon, Segojan Earthcaller as the deity of the dead for the Gnomish Pantheon, Urogalan as the deity of death for the Halfling Pantheon, and Yurtrus as the deity of death among the Orcish Pantheon. They are fighting for that sweet, sweet death-juice.

However, in all seriousness, a deity of death of some type seems to be a requirement for every pantheon. My guess is that said deity is responsible for collecting the souls from the Fugue Plane for the entire pantheon. No idea how they would split the soul if someone worships deities from multiple pantheons--a lot of Halflings do that! (It would be hilarious if this caused thousands upon thousands of Halflings to get placed into the wall on some deific technicality.) "No! No! I was faithful to both Tymora and Yondalla! I did everything right! I made the offerings! I said the prayers! I attended the festivals... no... please... not the Wall! NOOOOOOO!" (Right at this moment there is the voice from Mortal Kombat that echoes, "BESHABA WINS!")



I go to bed and this scroll explodes

In regards to souls, a soul goes to the deity best aligned with how it lived its life and its morals and ethic. Most Faerunians are, of course, polytheistic (farmers praying to Chauntea for a good harvest, and Talos to keep storms away that would damage their crops). Most have a "patron" deity, in the sense they may worship one deity slightly above all the others. I imagine most demihumans go to the realm of their pantheon (elves to Arvandor, halflings to the Green Fields, ect), unless they specifically worship a deity outside the pantheon (like a Halfling worshiping Tymora as their patron deity).

If the fate of the soul is contested--the halfling served both Yondalla and Tymora equally--then it comes down to, a) whichever deity (or servitor of the deity) gets there first lol, or b) (and this is more likely) Kelemvor comes in to play. As judge of the dead (whether he is *the* death god or not), he would determine whether the Halfling belongs in the Green Fields or with Tymora. I remember reading somewhere that one of Kel's roles is to preside over the dispute of contested souls, and determine the fate of the soul. I don't think this Halfling would end up on the Wall lol, because of the polytheistic nature of Faerunian worship.

Each pantheon having a death god: I think the function of, say Sehanine is different than Kelemvor or Jergal, because it is true that the majority of souls end up on the Fugue Plane first, then are picked up by their deity. The other death gods (such as Sehanine) have other roles and represent other things, whereas Kel and Jergal's focus is death. Perhaps, before the pantheons were more organized, each race needed their own death god. Now, Kelemvor (or Jergal) presides over that role, but the pantheons still have their own death god because that deity represents death for that race, or something like that.

One thing I like about 5e (in spite of the lack of detail) is how they divided up Kel, Myrkul, and Jergal. The judge of the dead should be neutral, but this allows Myrkul and Jergal to have their roles, too.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 10 Jul 2017 20:36:24
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 10 Jul 2017 :  21:15:46  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Prior to Ao's proclamation, the gods had more freedom to do whatever they wanted without consequence. Post ToT, only Cyric and Mask (along with Mystra, and later, Shar) conducted their godly affairs with the sort of reckless freedom enjoyed by all 1E-era deities - and it could be argued that all but Cyric (and perhaps even Cyric) continued to obey the strictures defined by Ao and their portfolios.

Looking at it from the point of view of just reading the Realmslore in 1E and 2E ... there wasn't much "soap opera of the gods", the gods were largely uninvolved and rarely mentioned. Indeed, adventures/modules involved Realms deities less often than foreign/interloping deities or archfiends and the like. The gods just didn't seem directly active.

But they did seem indirectly active. Specifically, their Faiths and followers were always visible, building more churches and temples, destroying more churches and temples, engaging each other in all sorts of ad-hoc miniature holy alliances, wars, crusades, jihads, inquisitions, and the like. More often than not an adventure/module would feature some priest or group of priests or monks or pilgrims of this or that god doing something in the "background" (typically some kind of deadly conflict with their adversaries from some other faith). We didn't really personify the gods, "Mystra attacked Cyric" or "Tempus marched on the city", we instead read about their clergy and churches performing such actions instead. It's almost as if the gods in 1E were always as "well behaved" as in 2E, but more tolerant of (less accountable for) the indiscretions of their followers.

Interestingly, the 2E Arcane Ages materials presented "retro-1E" gaming rules. Campaigns in the pre-ToT Realms logically must have followed 1E rules (and, indeed, "pre-retro-1E" rules prior to Netheril's Fall), so 2E rules to simulate 1E rules were provided, lol. The "1E" rules didn't have much to say about gods and their clergy. But the "pre-1E" rules operated differently, depending on a more direct and personal interaction between the priest and the deity, the deity's of the times seemed more interested in how their Faithful behaved (and in what was being done in their names), they encouraged and rewarded behaviour of their proxies in very definite fashions.



So Ao lays down new rules during the ToT to make the gods behave again by making them more reliant on their followers (since, as I've said before, the creator gods didn't need the worship of followers in order to be powerful). But having followers has always benefited them, for one reason or another.

It's interesting that pre-ToT, the gods were more indirectly active via their followers. You would think being more reliant on their followers would make them want more action from said followers. Now, I fully admit I am not edition savvy when it comes to the earlier editions. I've bought some older sourcebooks, and read quite a number of the novels, but I don't really know the difference between 1E and 2E. So, post-ToT, the gods became more directly involved, yet were also more dependent on the faith of their followers to give them power. Perhaps that is *why* they became more directly involved. What better way to help keep the faith than appear directly to your followers? There have been historical instances of the deities appearing directly and intervening, but they were rarer. Hmm...

Sweet water and light laughter
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  00:15:38  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

The issue with that is the 'one deity per portfolio rule' only applies to individual pantheons. This is why we have Kelemvor as the deity of death / the dead in the Faerunian Pantheon, Osiris as the deity of both the death and the dead for the Mulhorandi Pantheon, Dumathoin as the guardian of the dead in the Dwarven Pantheon, Sehanine Moonbow as the goddess of death among the Elvish Pantheon, Segojan Earthcaller as the deity of the dead for the Gnomish Pantheon, Urogalan as the deity of death for the Halfling Pantheon, and Yurtrus as the deity of death among the Orcish Pantheon. They are fighting for that sweet, sweet death-juice.

Actually, this was discussed somewhere (it may have just been on the old WotC forums, but there were definitely 'official type' personages involved).

Faerūn's 'Death God' is also the Realmspace Death God. He acts as a 'clearing house' for souls, sending them off to whatever pantheon is in charge of them. This may actually be part of Jergal's job, as seneschal. This came up when we are were discussing what happens when a Shou expatriate dies in Faerūn - where does he go? They get 'sorted' as part of the Faerūnian pantheon (and may stay there, if thats THEIR mythos).

Now, logically I would think that means someone who dies in Kara-Tur gets sorted-out by Yen-Wang-Yeh and sent to Faerūn's pantheon, but according to the out-come of that discussion, NO, they go to Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor's Realm FIRST, regardless of where they died (and like I said, that's probably because that's where Jergal can be found... and the Wall of the Faithless). I actually see Faerūn's Death God's realm as an adjunct to Jergal's Realm (and Jergal is the TRUE Realmspace Death God), but that's just supposition based on the fact that 'persons in the know' said "everyone goes to Kelemvor's Realm" (The Fugue Plane). Thus, I theorize The Fugue Plane itself is Jergal's Domain. The City of Death just belongs to whoever is occupying Faerūn's Death-God chair.


I remember that discussion. I believe it was on the official forums over a decade ago now, lol.

Actually, I think it makes more sense to say that all the dead get sent to the Fugue Plane. In the fugue plane the death deity of each pantheon sends servitors to pick them up. Once that happens, they are brought back to said deities domain to be sorted, judged, whatever is suitable for that pantheon. In the case of the Faerūnian Pantheon, Jergal, Kelemvor, whoever sorts them and then they are picked up by their respective deities servitors.

Faithless/False who had previously served the Faerūnian deities get the Wall of the Faithless (if it still exists). Faithless/False who served a previous pantheon... who knows? Maybe they also get handed over to the Wall. Maybe they are left to wander the Fugue Plane, ultimately to be nabbed by demons, or maybe they are punished or judged differently by the deities of their pantheon.

In any case, I think that makes more "logical" sense, regardless of what canon happens to say on the matter. (I do not think there is any out-and-out contradictions though.)

Of course, that still does not solve the problem of what happens to people who strongly worship deities who are part of two or more pantheons.
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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  00:23:45  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

So, post-ToT, the gods became more directly involved, yet were also more dependent on the faith of their followers to give them power. Perhaps that is *why* they became more directly involved. What better way to help keep the faith than appear directly to your followers? There have been historical instances of the deities appearing directly and intervening, but they were rarer. Hmm...



LOL. That makes a lot of sense, actually. Of course, it also makes Ao look like a dummy. The deities get more actively involved because of his punishment, blow up the world, making everything WORSE than before he destroyed the Tablets of Fate. So, by 5th Edition, he has to un-Sunder the Realms and re-create the Tablets of Fate to fix the problem he caused with the original punishment.
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  00:35:04  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

So, post-ToT, the gods became more directly involved, yet were also more dependent on the faith of their followers to give them power. Perhaps that is *why* they became more directly involved. What better way to help keep the faith than appear directly to your followers? There have been historical instances of the deities appearing directly and intervening, but they were rarer. Hmm...



LOL. That makes a lot of sense, actually. Of course, it also makes Ao look like a dummy. The deities get more actively involved because of his punishment, blow up the world, making everything WORSE than before he destroyed the Tablets of Fate. So, by 5th Edition, he has to un-Sunder the Realms and re-create the Tablets of Fate to fix the problem he caused with the original punishment.



The road to hell was paved with good intentions? lol

About your post above: as I said earlier (before my post that you just quoted), I think in the case of someone (I'll continue with the Halfling example) worshiping two deities in equal measure--Yondalla and Tymora in this case--this is where Kelemovr comes in. I know I remember reading somewhere that if the fate of a soul is contested, Kel presides over the debate and helps determine the soul's fate. So, if Yondalla and Tymora both really want this halfling soul, Kel is going to help them figure it out and determine whether the halfling belongs with Lady Luck or in the Green Fields.

OR, it's whether Yondalla or Tymora (or their servitors) gets to the soul first lol. Most demihumans are going to end up in the realm of their pantheon (elves go to Arvandor, halflings go to the Green Fields), unless their patron deity is outside that pantheon, like an elf worshiping Mielikki. In the case of the halfling, if Kel didn't preside over the dispute, the halfling would likely go to Yondalla, unless they were very Tymora-esque in nature. Meaning, their ethics and morals best aligned with Tymora, perhaps more than they do Yondalla.

But in general, yes, souls go to the Fugue Plane, and are then picked up by the servitors of their patron deity, and/or racial pantheon. The exception to this would be that sometimes elves go directly to Arvandor. Like, when an elf reaches "old age" they pass to Arvandor. I seem to remember reading that in the Complete Book of Elves, and I think there was a similar scene in Evermeet. In general, though, I think elves go to the Fugue Plane first, too.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 11 Jul 2017 00:40:01
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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  01:28:18  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

About your post above: as I said earlier (before my post that you just quoted), I think in the case of someone (I'll continue with the Halfling example) worshiping two deities in equal measure--Yondalla and Tymora in this case--this is where Kelemovr comes in. I know I remember reading somewhere that if the fate of a soul is contested, Kel presides over the debate and helps determine the soul's fate. So, if Yondalla and Tymora both really want this halfling soul, Kel is going to help them figure it out and determine whether the halfling belongs with Lady Luck or in the Green Fields.

OR, it's whether Yondalla or Tymora (or their servitors) gets to the soul first lol. Most demihumans are going to end up in the realm of their pantheon (elves go to Arvandor, halflings go to the Green Fields), unless their patron deity is outside that pantheon, like an elf worshiping Mielikki. In the case of the halfling, if Kel didn't preside over the dispute, the halfling would likely go to Yondalla, unless they were very Tymora-esque in nature. Meaning, their ethics and morals best aligned with Tymora, perhaps more than they do Yondalla.


However, that is assuming the dispute is a deity of the Faerunian Pantheon and a Racial/Ethnic Pantheon. What happens if you end up with a really weird combination, of say a Gnome--let's take the racial element out of it--is worshiping both Geb of the Mulhorandi Pantheon and Luthic of the Orcish pantheon? LOL. Highly unlikely? Yeah. Weird. But not impossible. Of the billions who have died in the Realms, this issue must have been faced at one point or another.

...and of course, this is all post-Myrkul stuff. What about when Jergal was just part of the Netherese Pantheon, and there were many more ethnic human pantheons? Who settles the dispute then?

It's the reason I think it makes sense that the Fugue Plane is just where all souls go (with special exceptions, like you mentioned about the elves, of course). From there the deity of death of whatever pantheon they served pick them up. Then they are sorted into whatever afterlife is in store for them.

I have to laugh at the thought of the soul going to whoever gets there first. Just imagine how hilarious that must be, it's almost a Monty Python skit.

I can just imagine an in-the-know evil soul hiding from its fate until a more desirable deity came to pick them up, and the servitors getting into an argument... and then it becomes clear that the mortal knew all the rules and exploited them in order to get a better afterlife.

Just imagine a hardcore rules-lawyer player, launching into a diatribe about why the servitor of Bane is wrong, and that he really gets to go with servitor of Sharess to that afterlife instead.

"But you donated money all the time to the Church of Bane!" "That was for political reasons, I gave much more money to the Church of Sharess purchasing hookers and drugs!" "You sold slaves!" "To purchase the hookers and drugs!" "The servitor of Bane was there first!" "I hid until the servitor of Sharess showed up, and she saw me first. The rules do not state first upon arrival, they state first to claim."
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  01:48:07  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

About your post above: as I said earlier (before my post that you just quoted), I think in the case of someone (I'll continue with the Halfling example) worshiping two deities in equal measure--Yondalla and Tymora in this case--this is where Kelemovr comes in. I know I remember reading somewhere that if the fate of a soul is contested, Kel presides over the debate and helps determine the soul's fate. So, if Yondalla and Tymora both really want this halfling soul, Kel is going to help them figure it out and determine whether the halfling belongs with Lady Luck or in the Green Fields.

OR, it's whether Yondalla or Tymora (or their servitors) gets to the soul first lol. Most demihumans are going to end up in the realm of their pantheon (elves go to Arvandor, halflings go to the Green Fields), unless their patron deity is outside that pantheon, like an elf worshiping Mielikki. In the case of the halfling, if Kel didn't preside over the dispute, the halfling would likely go to Yondalla, unless they were very Tymora-esque in nature. Meaning, their ethics and morals best aligned with Tymora, perhaps more than they do Yondalla.


However, that is assuming the dispute is a deity of the Faerunian Pantheon and a Racial/Ethnic Pantheon. What happens if you end up with a really weird combination, of say a Gnome--let's take the racial element out of it--is worshiping both Geb of the Mulhorandi Pantheon and Luthic of the Orcish pantheon? LOL. Highly unlikely? Yeah. Weird. But not impossible. Of the billions who have died in the Realms, this issue must have been faced at one point or another.

...and of course, this is all post-Myrkul stuff. What about when Jergal was just part of the Netherese Pantheon, and there were many more ethnic human pantheons? Who settles the dispute then?

It's the reason I think it makes sense that the Fugue Plane is just where all souls go (with special exceptions, like you mentioned about the elves, of course). From there the deity of death of whatever pantheon they served pick them up. Then they are sorted into whatever afterlife is in store for them.


You're probably right in that regard. Pre-Kel, all souls went to the Fugue Plane, then were taken by their respective god of death (or, if their fate was more certain, like a paladin of Tyr, for example), they are then taken directly by that deity--or servitor of said deity. Post-Kel, however, I think what I said before about Kelemvor helping to determine the fate of the contested soul applies.

quote:
I have to laugh at the thought of the soul going to whoever gets there first. Just imagine how hilarious that must be, it's almost a Monty Python skit.

I can just imagine an in-the-know evil soul hiding from its fate until a more desirable deity came to pick them up, and the servitors getting into an argument... and then it becomes clear that the mortal knew all the rules and exploited them in order to get a better afterlife.

Just imagine a hardcore rules-lawyer player, launching into a diatribe about why the servitor of Bane is wrong, and that he really gets to go with servitor of Sharess to that afterlife instead.

"But you donated money all the time to the Church of Bane!" "That was for political reasons, I gave much more money to the Church of Sharess purchasing hookers and drugs!" "You sold slaves!" "To purchase the hookers and drugs!" "The servitor of Bane was there first!" "I hid until the servitor of Sharess showed up, and she saw me first. The rules do not state first upon arrival, they state first to claim."



Lol the "whichever deity gets there first" was a more unlikely scenario, though I'm sure it's happened. I don't think an evil soul could fool its way to a better afterlife, as a soul is taken in by the deity that best aligns with its moral outlook and ethics. If the soul has a "black heart", I doubt Sharess would take him in lol. Though, if the soul did manage to fool the servitor and end up with Sharess instead of Bane, it would probably only be a matter of time before Sharess and the other petitioners realize the truth, and take appropriate measures lol.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 11 Jul 2017 01:49:23
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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  13:35:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

About your post above: as I said earlier (before my post that you just quoted), I think in the case of someone (I'll continue with the Halfling example) worshiping two deities in equal measure--Yondalla and Tymora in this case--this is where Kelemovr comes in. I know I remember reading somewhere that if the fate of a soul is contested, Kel presides over the debate and helps determine the soul's fate. So, if Yondalla and Tymora both really want this halfling soul, Kel is going to help them figure it out and determine whether the halfling belongs with Lady Luck or in the Green Fields.

OR, it's whether Yondalla or Tymora (or their servitors) gets to the soul first lol. Most demihumans are going to end up in the realm of their pantheon (elves go to Arvandor, halflings go to the Green Fields), unless their patron deity is outside that pantheon, like an elf worshiping Mielikki. In the case of the halfling, if Kel didn't preside over the dispute, the halfling would likely go to Yondalla, unless they were very Tymora-esque in nature. Meaning, their ethics and morals best aligned with Tymora, perhaps more than they do Yondalla.


However, that is assuming the dispute is a deity of the Faerunian Pantheon and a Racial/Ethnic Pantheon. What happens if you end up with a really weird combination, of say a Gnome--let's take the racial element out of it--is worshiping both Geb of the Mulhorandi Pantheon and Luthic of the Orcish pantheon? LOL. Highly unlikely? Yeah. Weird. But not impossible. Of the billions who have died in the Realms, this issue must have been faced at one point or another.

...and of course, this is all post-Myrkul stuff. What about when Jergal was just part of the Netherese Pantheon, and there were many more ethnic human pantheons? Who settles the dispute then?

It's the reason I think it makes sense that the Fugue Plane is just where all souls go (with special exceptions, like you mentioned about the elves, of course). From there the deity of death of whatever pantheon they served pick them up. Then they are sorted into whatever afterlife is in store for them.

I have to laugh at the thought of the soul going to whoever gets there first. Just imagine how hilarious that must be, it's almost a Monty Python skit.

I can just imagine an in-the-know evil soul hiding from its fate until a more desirable deity came to pick them up, and the servitors getting into an argument... and then it becomes clear that the mortal knew all the rules and exploited them in order to get a better afterlife.

Just imagine a hardcore rules-lawyer player, launching into a diatribe about why the servitor of Bane is wrong, and that he really gets to go with servitor of Sharess to that afterlife instead.

"But you donated money all the time to the Church of Bane!" "That was for political reasons, I gave much more money to the Church of Sharess purchasing hookers and drugs!" "You sold slaves!" "To purchase the hookers and drugs!" "The servitor of Bane was there first!" "I hid until the servitor of Sharess showed up, and she saw me first. The rules do not state first upon arrival, they state first to claim."



We definitely have examples of this where the person worshipped across pantheon lines. For instance, there was a half elf that worshipped both Sune and Hanali Celanil (though 4e lore I think tried to make them one and the same).

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Phillip aka Sleyvas
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  17:32:41  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that was from Heir of Sembia, if I am remembering the title right. 4e lore aside, Sune and Hanali are both goddesses of love, but they aren't exactly the same (much like the various death gods we mentioned earlier). In this case, I think it would come down to a) is the half-elf more Sune or Hanali in nature? b) did she pay homage to one even slightly more than the other? c) pre-Kelemvor, it comes back to (a), and whatever is in the half-elf's heart. Even if she thinks it is equal, the gods and their servitors are going to know what is in the deepest recesses of her heart. Post-Kel, if the two goddesses both wanted her, Kel would likely handle things.

Sune and Hanali are allies, so it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal. It would get interesting if the petitioner worshiped deities who were enemies, like the traitor-priestesses who worship Lolth, but also secretly Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. Though, again, I think in this instance, it would come down to what is in the priestesses' heart. If she pretended to be a Lolthite (for obvious reasons when it comes to drow society), but in her heart was a Vhaeraunite or Eilistraeen, than her soul would go to them instead.

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Markustay
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Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  18:38:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I would agree - whether you ascribe to theory that Jergal is the REAL Realmspace 'Death God' or not - that EVERYONE in Realmspace goes to the Fugue first. I am also sure other Crystal Spheres have their own version of 'The Fugue' (which I picture bordering the 'Mittlemarch' - the Border Ethereal). From there you go with with a proxy (and fiends/angels count as proxies in this regard) through a Gate to your 'judgement domain', which may or may not be your final 'resting place', depending upon said judgment. For Faerūnians, that 'place of judgment' would be the City of Death (which isn't a very creative name when you think about it, since theoretically every Crystal Sphere should have several of these attached to it - at least one per pantheon present).

Jergal probably has an army of those Charonadaemons ('little deaths') at his beck & call just for this purpose (and I a m also picturing them being a Jergal-specific version, maybe with an alien-looking skull and four arms coming out from its tattered cloak), guiding the dead to their judgements. And in FR, they probably have a secondary duty of shooing-off any other fiends that are trying to pick-up 'stray souls' for themselves (being that FR has its own options for 'those without a god').

Edit:
Because I think all things are connected (despite having a recent micro-rant about how we shouldn't over-connect FR lore), I was just looking for an 'umbrella term' to encompass ALL the different versions of The Fugue into one mega-plane. Much as I picture the Prime Material being a single plane that got shattered during the Godswar, I think most planes all mirror each other in some way, and most of them are still (fairly) solid planes. Thus, The Ethereal would have 'layers' within it, which would include the normal Border Ethereal, The Ethereal (The Aethers), and the Deep Ethereal (that uncharted region that coincides with the space between the Crystal Spheres in the Prime Material). But there should also be another one - the 'Misty realm of the recent dead', where the various fugues are located (so it touches the Border Ethereal and has portals to the upper and lower planes). It would be where souls go first, traveling quickly through the Borderlands into the Misty region, where they find their world's 'Fugue' (the whole place is really 'the fugue', but I'm not using that term since FR's calls that by that name specifically). Each Fugue corresponds to a different world, but they are all connected through this great region of shadows, like islands in a sea of mists.

So now it just occurs to me, we already have that with the Shadowfell. Just as it contains regions like the Domains of Dread (are those people really dead? ), it should have these world-specific Fugues where the recent dead go, like a 'weigh station' for the damned. In that way, The Shadowfell retains some of its old-school flavor from the Plane of Shadows, having specific regions set aside for this sort of thing (and since its supposedly near-infinite, it would never get crowded). In fact, the Celts had a name for this 'misty region of the dead' and it was called 'Annwn', and they considered it an island. An island of the recent dead in the middle of a sea of mists. Sounds like the Shadowfell (and the 2e concept for Ravenloft setting) to me.

And all of this would be separate from, yet overlapping, with the Astral plane (which is a plane of the Mind {spirit}, and not of the soul).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jul 2017 19:10:40
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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jul 2017 :  23:48:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I think that was from Heir of Sembia, if I am remembering the title right. 4e lore aside, Sune and Hanali are both goddesses of love, but they aren't exactly the same (much like the various death gods we mentioned earlier). In this case, I think it would come down to a) is the half-elf more Sune or Hanali in nature? b) did she pay homage to one even slightly more than the other? c) pre-Kelemvor, it comes back to (a), and whatever is in the half-elf's heart. Even if she thinks it is equal, the gods and their servitors are going to know what is in the deepest recesses of her heart. Post-Kel, if the two goddesses both wanted her, Kel would likely handle things.

Sune and Hanali are allies, so it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal. It would get interesting if the petitioner worshiped deities who were enemies, like the traitor-priestesses who worship Lolth, but also secretly Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. Though, again, I think in this instance, it would come down to what is in the priestesses' heart. If she pretended to be a Lolthite (for obvious reasons when it comes to drow society), but in her heart was a Vhaeraunite or Eilistraeen, than her soul would go to them instead.



Yeah, but the big thing there to note is those are still the same pantheon. The previous one literally crosses pantheons. While the two goddesses may be friendly, they would both crave the sustenance. However, it may simply come down to which of them shows up to collect her first, or they may allow her to choose.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  00:04:47  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I think that was from Heir of Sembia, if I am remembering the title right. 4e lore aside, Sune and Hanali are both goddesses of love, but they aren't exactly the same (much like the various death gods we mentioned earlier). In this case, I think it would come down to a) is the half-elf more Sune or Hanali in nature? b) did she pay homage to one even slightly more than the other? c) pre-Kelemvor, it comes back to (a), and whatever is in the half-elf's heart. Even if she thinks it is equal, the gods and their servitors are going to know what is in the deepest recesses of her heart. Post-Kel, if the two goddesses both wanted her, Kel would likely handle things.

Sune and Hanali are allies, so it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal. It would get interesting if the petitioner worshiped deities who were enemies, like the traitor-priestesses who worship Lolth, but also secretly Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. Though, again, I think in this instance, it would come down to what is in the priestesses' heart. If she pretended to be a Lolthite (for obvious reasons when it comes to drow society), but in her heart was a Vhaeraunite or Eilistraeen, than her soul would go to them instead.



Yeah, but the big thing there to note is those are still the same pantheon. The previous one literally crosses pantheons. While the two goddesses may be friendly, they would both crave the sustenance. However, it may simply come down to which of them shows up to collect her first, or they may allow her to choose.



Very true, though even though they are of the same pantheon, Lolth and Vhaeraun have different realms. So do Sune and Hanali, of course, and that is why I said it would likely be determined either by whatever is in the half-elf's heart. Even if she worshiped both equally, it would come down to what her "true nature" is, and whether that nature aligns better with Sune or Hanali. Or, as you said, whoever gets there first, though I think that's a more unlikely scenario. I'm sure it's happened, and could happen more often when two deities, like Sune and Hanali are revered in equal amounts.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  13:30:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I think that was from Heir of Sembia, if I am remembering the title right. 4e lore aside, Sune and Hanali are both goddesses of love, but they aren't exactly the same (much like the various death gods we mentioned earlier). In this case, I think it would come down to a) is the half-elf more Sune or Hanali in nature? b) did she pay homage to one even slightly more than the other? c) pre-Kelemvor, it comes back to (a), and whatever is in the half-elf's heart. Even if she thinks it is equal, the gods and their servitors are going to know what is in the deepest recesses of her heart. Post-Kel, if the two goddesses both wanted her, Kel would likely handle things.

Sune and Hanali are allies, so it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal. It would get interesting if the petitioner worshiped deities who were enemies, like the traitor-priestesses who worship Lolth, but also secretly Vhaeraun and Eilistraee. Though, again, I think in this instance, it would come down to what is in the priestesses' heart. If she pretended to be a Lolthite (for obvious reasons when it comes to drow society), but in her heart was a Vhaeraunite or Eilistraeen, than her soul would go to them instead.



Yeah, but the big thing there to note is those are still the same pantheon. The previous one literally crosses pantheons. While the two goddesses may be friendly, they would both crave the sustenance. However, it may simply come down to which of them shows up to collect her first, or they may allow her to choose.



Very true, though even though they are of the same pantheon, Lolth and Vhaeraun have different realms. So do Sune and Hanali, of course, and that is why I said it would likely be determined either by whatever is in the half-elf's heart. Even if she worshiped both equally, it would come down to what her "true nature" is, and whether that nature aligns better with Sune or Hanali. Or, as you said, whoever gets there first, though I think that's a more unlikely scenario. I'm sure it's happened, and could happen more often when two deities, like Sune and Hanali are revered in equal amounts.



Or maybe something like what happened with Persephone occurs. Her soul wanders between the two realms. Maybe even when she ultimately "dissolves" her "essence" becomes a keyed portal of sorts connecting both divine realms.

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Irennan
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Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  13:35:10  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What if the soul is given choice. In the more recent lore, every soul, of any race, goes to the Fugue first, where Kelemvor judges them. Those who are judged faithful, await the coming of divine messengers to be led to their respective realms. What if both Hanali and Sune sent their messengers and the soul chose which one to follow. I assume that, at least in the case of good deities, they would be ok with mortals having a say on their own fate, especially deities that value freedom of choice and/or expression.

Not all fantasy needs to have deities treating mortals without any empathy, especially deities who--because of what they embody--should show empathy towards mortals.

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Edited by - Irennan on 12 Jul 2017 13:36:58
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Markustay
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Hanali and Sune don't share a Realm anymore? Does that still hold true in 5e?

I'm only asking because then a soul wouldn't have to make that particular choice (which, come to think of it, is probably why most pantheons have their 'afterlife' in the same Realm - FR is a bit weird in that its Gods are spread all over the place).

EDIT:
I think one of the few things I liked about the 4e 'god shake-up' was the combining of Hanali and Sune. I still think they did it pretty slip-shod (heavy-handed), but it works for me.

I'm thinking now - after looking a bit more into the Greco-Roman version (Aphrodite/Venus) that she should be a more primordial deity, and thus could have easily been worshiped by the Elves first. So its not so much that humans started worshiping an Elven/Sylvan god under an alias, but rather, they both discovered a deity of beauty that already existed. Since I think the Demiurge (and thanks for whoever gave me that so very long ago) was created at the moment THE FIRST split into the Divine Masculine and the Divine Feminine (creation for expediency's sake over creation just for creation's sake, or, 'art'), 'beauty' has to have come very soon after the desire to create.

And rereading the Aphrodite stuff just now, I realized that in my own homebrew, Over-Cosmology, Ymir = Uranus = 'The Prime Material". It all works. I love when things come full circle. I already had Gaea in there, with Ymir (joining her essence to his in order to save the material - the 'Firmament' - from completely disintegrating), and their child (born from Uranus's 'cast off' genitals) was Aphrodite (or Venus, which is just sune backwards... without the 'V'). So from the dying body of the First World - and the first 'sacrifice' - was born something beautiful. She would have many names - probably a different one for each culture who discovered her - but she is primal, and eternal. Sune and Hanali would thus be two Aspects of the archtype (and as I've said numerous times before, at those levels of power, there really is no difference in them being separate beings or not, because the Aspects would be autonomous).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jul 2017 15:30:49
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Irennan
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Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  15:22:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
5e has returned all the outer planes back to the Great Wheel, so yeah, they should still share a realm.

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Markustay
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Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  15:35:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks.

It all makes more sense now. 'The Great Wheel' is the default cosmology, so it would/should be the place where 'the archtypes' reign supreme. Anyone traveling to Brightwater would see dozens of 'beauty deities' flitting about, from all different pantheons - just Aspects (Ubdertars) of the Archtype. The Archtype itself would be the Godly Domain itself (that is what I feel all godly Domains truly are - they are really 'the mind' of the God - when you seem them in some mortal-like, physical form you are just seeing an Avatar).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jul 2017 15:36:48
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Irennan
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Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  15:44:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Thanks.

It all makes more sense now. 'The Great Wheel' is the default cosmology, so it would/should be the place where 'the archtypes' reign supreme. Anyone traveling to Brightwater would see dozens of 'beauty deities' flitting about, from all different pantheons - just Aspects (Ubdertars) of the Archtype. The Archtype itself would be the Godly Domain itself (that is what I feel all godly Domains truly are - they are really 'the mind' of the God - when you seem them in some mortal-like, physical form you are just seeing an Avatar).



Then you'd need to have deities like Eilistraee and Sharindlar (sp) there too (drow and dwarven deities of beauty). Although those two are pretty close to each other in the Great Wheel, having both their Realms within Nidaveliir, in Ysgard (after the whole ordeal at the end of 3e, in 5e/post-Sundering Eilistraee might have her realm fully in Arborea->Arvandor, tho, which would put her close to Hanali and Sune).

Going back to check F&A, my impression is that Sune and Hanali have a shared part of their Realms, but it's not ike their whole Realms overlap.

Your idea does make sense, tho, and I guess that the World Tree was WotC's attempt at organzing deities in a similar way.

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Edited by - Irennan on 12 Jul 2017 15:45:42
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  16:23:11  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought that pre-4e, Hanali was in Arvandor and Sune was in Brightwater. However, I think portals connected the Realms, so the two gods had access to one another, if you will, and, according to DD, they share the waters of Evergold. But DD also states that Hanali's realm is in Arvandor.

With good-aligned deities, I would think most are sympathetic to their petitioners (Helm and Tyr may be a bit more rigid), but most would want to give their petitioners a good afterlife. And Sune and Hanali being allies, I could see them either giving the soul a choice, or not bemoaning Kelemvor's choice if he deems the soul belongs with Hanali instead of Sune, or vice versa.


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Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 12 Jul 2017 17:20:34
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Irennan
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Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  20:10:26  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pre 3e, they both resided in Arborea. They should be again.

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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 12 Jul 2017 :  20:15:40  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True, I just kind of always thought of their realms as separate, even when they were both in Arborea. Kind of like how some of the Seldarine reside in Arvandor, but some have their own realms within Arvandor. Or, put another way, Arborea was the neighborhood, but some of the gods had their own houses XD.

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