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Originally posted by Irennan

I think that the only thing that changed was the degree to which deities get their power from faith. Before the ToT, they could sustain themselves, after it they are no longer able to. However, my impression is that worship has always been the same as power for a deity.

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Kozah died of lack of worshippers long before ToT. Auppenser might as well have died.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Re: Kozah and Talos.

Kozah was a Netherese deity and Talos was a Talfric deity. After the fall of Netheril, and likely sometime during the events of the Dawn Cataclysm--as the various human pantheons began to merge--Kozah supplanted Talos, though kept the name. Alternatively, it could have been the other way around--though Talos is pretty identical to Kozah. In any case, both were likely deities of storms.

There are also other deities of storms and destruction that Talos has "absorbed." Baelros was likely a Calishite deity that is now part of Talos, who was a deity of sandstorms and destruction. Baelros still has some minor cults devoted to him throughout Calishite lands. There may be others that we do not know about as well.

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Originally posted by dazzlerdal


There are no raumathari or narfelli gods because most of those people died or were forced to abandon their gods by demon cultists in charge of the realm.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

However, I believe Kozah and Talos are the same deity. The writeups for Kozah in Netheril: Empire of Magic and for Talos in Faiths and Avatars are copy and paste jobs. They're quite literally exactly the same - no personality differences at all.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

We also know from Faiths and Pantheons p68 that Talos was created from the first battle of Selune and Shar. It would seem odd if Talos was linked so heavily to Selune and Shar that he was in some distant pantheon - it's much more likely that he was Kozah.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

Edit: You may have been getting towards this point in your post, but I think it's possible there was a "Talos" deity of the Talfir (or Jhaamdath, or elsewhere) that was later subsumed by Kozah. Kozah then took the name "Talos" to become more widespread.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

That's mythology not actual historical fact. There are many creation myths in the Realms. The Sisters of Light and Darkness is just one of them. Why should Sarrukh creation mythology or Dragonic creation mythology be discounted in favor of the one believed by the Netherese and since popularized across Faerun after the Dawn Cataclysm?

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The most common account of Toril’s prehistory traces its roots back to ancient Netheril. This popular human myth recounts the creation of the universe by Lord Ao and the epic struggle between the gods of light and darkness that followed. Only recently have other, more ancient legends come to light, recounted by the sarrukh of Okoth and echoed by the dragonborn of Returned Abeir. By combining common threads from both accounts, backed by diligent factfinding missions, scholars and historians of today have gained a clearer understanding of the creation of the universe.

(later)From this glittering realm of starlight formed beautiful twin beings, polar opposites of each other, one dark and one light. The twin goddesses birthed of the Astral Sea quickly moved to defend the virgin worlds from the destructive primordials. Other gods were created from the residue of the deific battles or summoned from other dimensions to aid in the fight against the primordials and their monstrous servants.

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". . . The World was still flat, here before the beginning of Time, before Asgorath the World-Shaper folded the cloth of existence into its final form. The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good.

"And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World. Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World.

"Red, they were, red that would later depart from its purity But here before the beginning of Time, their red was the pure red of the shattered Crystal Sun. They spread their wings and took to the skies, circling around the still, cold form of Asgorath. One after another score upon score, they bent their breath against the body of Asgorath, and the skies rang with their lamentations. Only one of the Spawn of Asgorath withheld his breath. Instead, he pulled a shard of the Crystal Sun from the flesh of Asgorath, and used it to draw blood from his own flesh, and this blood fell upon the face of the World.

"As before, there was movement where the blood fell, but the creatures that came forth from this blood were not of the pure red. Colored like the products of the World they were, like the unliving metals. And the Renegade raised his voice, and his voice was a trumpet: 'I too have Created.'

"The form of Asgorath began to stir, as the Renegade knew it must. The Renegade spread his wings and flew, and the Spawn of the Renegade followed him into the farthest reaches of the world."

--from the Book of the World

Excerpted from The Origin Myths--A Treatise by Dunkelzahn of Candlekeep, 1354 DR


Perhaps surprisingly, there are very few origin myths that relate directly to dragons. One of the few is a tome known as the Book of the World. Only one copy of this book has ever been found#151;and that in the land of Asram, about 100 years ago. The language of the book is Thorass--#151;more correctly, an even more archaic form of Thorass than most samples of this language#151;--but the script used is a simplified runic form. (No doubt the selection of runic script was necessitated by the construction of the book: it consists of 300 sheets of thin, flexible metal onto which the runes have been scribed with great precision.) This combination of language and script explains the difficulties and delays involved in translating the tome.

From its content and the mythic forms used, it is obvious to scholars that the Book of the World is an example of holy literature--that is, it once was at the center of a body of religious beliefs. The nature of some of those beliefs can be inferred from the myths contained in the Book, but there is insufficient cultural context to confidently analyze the belief structure. (For example, it is not known whether the creation myths are symbolic or intended to be taken as absolute truth.)

The sheer volume of mythic material within the Book, and the relatively organized chronological and contextual structure used throughout, imply that it originated from a fairly sophisticated culture. This is paradoxical, since no cultures of sufficient sophistication apparently ever arose in Asram. The possibility cannot be overlooked that the Book was transported from elsewhere and abandoned in Asram, but that theory also has its problems. There is no modern culture that contains even the vaguest mythological or symbolic echoes of the Book's content. Judging from the oxidation of the Book's metal pages, the specimen under examination was probably no more than 500 years old. In that time, it seems unlikely that an entire religio-mythic tradition would vanish from Toril. But that seems to be the case here. (The wild speculations that the Book of the World did not arise in Toril at all are discounted by most reputable scholars.)

The Book provides a fascinating origin myth relating to dragonkind. From a close reading of the text, it becomes obvious that Asgorath the World-Shaper is a dragon. The implication#151;that a dragon created the universe, and that dragons were the first creatures to exist--is quite fascinating. A further point arises from the sentence that reads, "And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it." In the original Thorass, the word "breath"--normally used as a singular or uncountable noun in this context#151;--has been given a plural suffix ("breaths"). Is this meant to imply that Asgorath is a multi-headed dragon?

The text is clearer when it comes to the "Spawn of Asgorath." There can be no doubt that these creatures are red dragons. The following sentences hint that this religion holds the red dragon as the most important species of dragon. All others would "later depart from . . . purity."

When the Renegade ("bahmat" in the original Thorass) duplicates the actions of Asgorath, the dragons that arise are "not of the pure red," but rather "colored . . . like the unliving metals." The implication here is obvious: The Spawn of the Renegade are the metallic--and primarily good-aligned-dragons, What the Book of the World contains is not only an origin myth of dragons--which makes it important enough in its own right--but also one of the few surviving evil-oriented origin myths.

It is easy to speculate, based on this myth. The plural inflection of the word "breath" might be taken as implying multiple heads; the Thorass word for renegade is "bahmat." It seems almost too close a correlation--can Asgorath be Tiamat and the Renegade be Bahamut?

An interesting speculation has recently arisen. It has long been thought that the Book of the World represents a body of human, demihuman, or humanoid myth. Is this a short-sighted and humanocentric assumption? The key features of the origin myth--sacrifice, betrayal, and rebirth--are common to almost every humanoid ethos, but in all of those myth-bodies the central characters are anthropomorphic. In other words, humanoid myth-builders create gods in their own image. In the myth presented in the Book of the World, there is not a single humanoid character.

Might not the Book of the World present an origin myth that was originally developed by dragons--probably red dragons--themselves? At a later date, humanoids adopted the myth, and incorporated it into the Book--for the Book of the World is obviously a humanoid artifact.

Dragons have never been thought to be great mythographers. Does this statement tell us more about dragons or about the prejudices of researchers?

(The following is excerpted from an address to the Council of Sages by Kelmara of Arabel, 1346 DR)

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Originally posted by Markustay

I've reasoned that it had to do with the power they got just from their portfolios.

On most worlds, most of a god's might stems directly from the power of their church, but on Toril - and its probably because of The Weave* - the gods were able to get an enormous amount of their power just from folks partaking of things related to their portfolio. Now, some of that happens on other worlds, but somehow, this got vastly magnified on Toril (perhaps it also had to do with the 'One god per portfolio rule'? In earlier times, maybe dozens of gods shared portfolios, which would have lead to much smaller chunks of power coming their way from that source). For example, here on Earth we've had probably over a hundred 'death gods' who would have all had to share the wealth, as it were. On Toril, there was just Myrkul, and then Cyric and then Kelemvor (and originally Jergal). One god, getting all 'the juice' from all those deaths.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

This is important lore, here, not only because it shows us another creation myth. It is important lore because it makes clear that there are many creation myths in the Realms. This makes sense. We would expect that. It also makes clear that there are many human creation myths.

This ultimately means that the Sisters of Light and Darkness is just a Netherese creation myth. It likely holds very little truth at all. I cannot find the Sarrukh creation myth off-hand (and I've been looking!). However, I know one exists somewhere because I recall reading it some time ago.

Regardless, it makes sense that the Sarrukh would have a creation myth that would revolve around the World Serpent. It is established on pg. 59 of Serpent Kingdoms that the World Serpent granted the Sarrukh "the secrets of magic, civilization, and power." Considering the Sarrukh also created the Nether Scrolls, literally on the Golden Skin of the World Serpent, is it hard to believe that the World Serpent was the original deity who made the Weave? We know the World Serpent fragmented into numerous other deities. Deities have schisms form within their faiths, have aspects of themselves break off, subsume other deities, etc. all the time. It makes sense that the World Serpent fragments, one of the fragments becomes the new guardian of the Weave, then somehow it lands in Mystryl's lap by the time the Netherese are rising to power... and wouldn't you know? There is the Tarraseer, a Sarrukh involved with the group who helped craft the Nether Scrolls, to help them out! Just a huge coincidence, right?

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Originally posted by KanzenAU

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Originally posted by Aldrick

This is important lore, here, not only because it shows us another creation myth. It is important lore because it makes clear that there are many creation myths in the Realms. This makes sense. We would expect that. It also makes clear that there are many human creation myths.

This ultimately means that the Sisters of Light and Darkness is just a Netherese creation myth. It likely holds very little truth at all. I cannot find the Sarrukh creation myth off-hand (and I've been looking!). However, I know one exists somewhere because I recall reading it some time ago.

Regardless, it makes sense that the Sarrukh would have a creation myth that would revolve around the World Serpent. It is established on pg. 59 of Serpent Kingdoms that the World Serpent granted the Sarrukh "the secrets of magic, civilization, and power." Considering the Sarrukh also created the Nether Scrolls, literally on the Golden Skin of the World Serpent, is it hard to believe that the World Serpent was the original deity who made the Weave? We know the World Serpent fragmented into numerous other deities. Deities have schisms form within their faiths, have aspects of themselves break off, subsume other deities, etc. all the time. It makes sense that the World Serpent fragments, one of the fragments becomes the new guardian of the Weave, then somehow it lands in Mystryl's lap by the time the Netherese are rising to power... and wouldn't you know? There is the Tarraseer, a Sarrukh involved with the group who helped craft the Nether Scrolls, to help them out! Just a huge coincidence, right?

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The sarrukh and Netherese creation myths are combined into the 4e myth mentioned above. Ouroboros gets a mention as the leader of the Elder Gods during the conflict against the primordials. There are other creation myths too, to be sure. I'm pretty sure the pre-genie peoples of Calimshan had some creation myths in Empires of the Shining Sea from memory. I don't think the existence of multiple creation myths necessarily has to mean they're all entirely false - maybe they all contain some element of truth, or maybe one resembles the true early history of Abeir-Toril while others resemble the early history of other worlds. They may all be false, too - we just don't know.

The Draconomicon/red dragon one gets a bit more clarity in later editions, when we learn more about the Tearfall. Even within the Draconomicon the veracity of the myth is debated. I personally sell it as the dragons claim Asgorath to be their creator god (whom they believe is the same as Io), but they're actually confused with Asgoroth the World Shaper, who threw down the ice moon that precipitated the Tearfall (4e FRCG), created by an old god named Zotha. So it's a creation myth born out of the events of that time. This story gets a little clarification in the same area of the FRCG as the sarrukh/dragonborn of Abeir/Netherese creation myth.

The FRCS and the FRCG sell their creation myths as "accepted as fact" because they're echoed in a lot of different Faerunian myths. The bottom line is of course, mortals cannot know. I choose to believe that since the twins of light and darkness thing is mentioned in all three myths (as mentioned in the FRCG), it holds a little more truth than the others. I think this is as close to a published canon origin myth as we're going to get, so it's what I'm going with for my own game. Others of course are entitled to their own opinions.

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The most common account of Toril's pre-history traces its roots back to ancient Netheril. This popular human myth recounts the creation of the universe by Lord Ao and the epic struggle between the gods of light and darkness that followed. Only recently have other, more ancient legends come to light, recounted by the sarrukh of Okoth and echoed by the dragonborn of Returned Abeir. By combining common threads from both accounts, backed by diligent fact-finding missions, scholars and historians of today have gained a clearer understanding of the creation of the universe.

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Originally posted by KanzenAU
Near the end of Waterdeep, Ao basically says "now the gods are reliant on mortals". Talos straight out states that that seems crazy. The implication seems to be that the power of the gods did not rely on mortals before this moment.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

The issue with that is the 'one deity per portfolio rule' only applies to individual pantheons. This is why we have Kelemvor as the deity of death / the dead in the Faerunian Pantheon, Osiris as the deity of both the death and the dead for the Mulhorandi Pantheon, Dumathoin as the guardian of the dead in the Dwarven Pantheon, Sehanine Moonbow as the goddess of death among the Elvish Pantheon, Segojan Earthcaller as the deity of the dead for the Gnomish Pantheon, Urogalan as the deity of death for the Halfling Pantheon, and Yurtrus as the deity of death among the Orcish Pantheon. They are fighting for that sweet, sweet death-juice.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

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Originally posted by Markustay

I've reasoned that it had to do with the power they got just from their portfolios.

On most worlds, most of a god's might stems directly from the power of their church, but on Toril - and its probably because of The Weave* - the gods were able to get an enormous amount of their power just from folks partaking of things related to their portfolio. Now, some of that happens on other worlds, but somehow, this got vastly magnified on Toril (perhaps it also had to do with the 'One god per portfolio rule'? In earlier times, maybe dozens of gods shared portfolios, which would have lead to much smaller chunks of power coming their way from that source). For example, here on Earth we've had probably over a hundred 'death gods' who would have all had to share the wealth, as it were. On Toril, there was just Myrkul, and then Cyric and then Kelemvor (and originally Jergal). One god, getting all 'the juice' from all those deaths.

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The issue with that is the 'one deity per portfolio rule' only applies to individual pantheons. This is why we have Kelemvor as the deity of death / the dead in the Faerunian Pantheon, Osiris as the deity of both the death and the dead for the Mulhorandi Pantheon, Dumathoin as the guardian of the dead in the Dwarven Pantheon, Sehanine Moonbow as the goddess of death among the Elvish Pantheon, Segojan Earthcaller as the deity of the dead for the Gnomish Pantheon, Urogalan as the deity of death for the Halfling Pantheon, and Yurtrus as the deity of death among the Orcish Pantheon. They are fighting for that sweet, sweet death-juice.

However, in all seriousness, a deity of death of some type seems to be a requirement for every pantheon. My guess is that said deity is responsible for collecting the souls from the Fugue Plane for the entire pantheon. No idea how they would split the soul if someone worships deities from multiple pantheons--a lot of Halflings do that! (It would be hilarious if this caused thousands upon thousands of Halflings to get placed into the wall on some deific technicality.) "No! No! I was faithful to both Tymora and Yondalla! I did everything right! I made the offerings! I said the prayers! I attended the festivals... no... please... not the Wall! NOOOOOOO!" (Right at this moment there is the voice from Mortal Kombat that echoes, "BESHABA WINS!")

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