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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3463 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2017 :  10:37:35  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
People worry too much about the legal nonsense.

Yes it is their IP and yes they determine who can make money out of it, but people have been making up their own stuff in that IP for decades and WoTC have often encouraged it (a lot happened on their own boards)

They arent going to sue you or take your house. The worst they can do is tell you to take your work down and stop distributing it (but once its out there its difficult to stop its spread so its not worth their bother).

Do what you want. As long as you dont make money and you arent trying to put them out of business then who cares. If you like doing it then continue to do so. WoTC have never stopped George and his pdfs. Nobody came after me when i did 10 issues of a fanmag. Candlekeep has been going for years.

Just do it if you want. If theres no harm theres no foul.


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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3463 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2017 :  10:44:52  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That being said, getting people to cooperate is difficult (people just arent used to it these days). Whats more difficult is finding people with the drive and determination to finish a project. I burned out after 18 months, and im obsessive about the realms. Most fans lose interest after a few weeks, especially when opinion is divided on a way forward.

Oh and DMs Guild is not for realms fans. Its for generic D&D fans (which is what nu-realms is becoming). I still dont trust WoTC not to end support suddenly and close it down, and then all your work is lost because you agreed not to release it anywhere else)

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5803 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2017 :  12:45:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

That being said, getting people to cooperate is difficult (people just arent used to it these days). Whats more difficult is finding people with the drive and determination to finish a project. I burned out after 18 months, and im obsessive about the realms. Most fans lose interest after a few weeks, especially when opinion is divided on a way forward.

Oh and DMs Guild is not for realms fans. Its for generic D&D fans (which is what nu-realms is becoming). I still dont trust WoTC not to end support suddenly and close it down, and then all your work is lost because you agreed not to release it anywhere else)



I will say though that DMs Guild has nuggets to mine. I don't normally read Dragon+, but I like that they were reviewing DMs Guild offerings. I think it was the second one that they reviewed called Priestess that basically built out a new divine class similar but different to clerics focused on sacrifice. The rules need work, but the concept is wonderful.

Similarly, there's some guy that was doing a lot of Al-Qadim stuff, and I recommend looking at it. There was another guy that was doing monster compendiums, and I recommend looking at them. There were also some one-offs like myself who posted collections of spells that were good. In fact, simply because I have them listed in my "complete red book of spell strategy" as references, I'm going to paste links to some of them here. Note, I made my own font that consisted of little pictures like genies lamps, fire motifs, skulls, etc... just for notating which spells came from which resources, as I made a comprehensive spell list that basically gave pointers to other resources, but gave credit to the original authors.

BTW, I'm trying to do something similar for my "United Tharchs of Toril Entry" wherein I reference where I got rules for certain creatures, classes, magic items, spells, etc... from. Some of its changing though, because it seems like WotC read some of what I was requesting and put a LOT of the creatures I wanted in the Volo's Guide to Monsters (i.e. an official froghemoth, girallon, vegepygmy, wood woad, Tlincalli, quickling, grung (though I was picturing a taller poison frog folk), firenewts, more dinosaurs, darklings, choldriths, cranium rats, chitines, ... and yes I did just write this list so I could list them in that document).

See the DMSGuild offering of “Bestiary of Faerun” authored by Leonaru which can be bought at www.DMsGuild.com for details of the dread warrior, gemstone golems, and Bheur Hag.

Certain demon summoning spells that start with conjure come from an unearthed arcana article located here: https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/07_UA_That_Old_Black_Magic.pdf

Certain new Elemental Based spells can be found at the following link by WotC
http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf

A S beside a spell indicates it comes from the DM's guild offering by Jeff and Dawn Ibach called Athanae's Divinations located at https://www.dmsguild.com/product/172631/Athanaes-Divinations?term=athanae&filters=45469_0_0_0_0_0


AUbeside a spell indicates it comes from the DM's guild offering by Thomas Schlüter called Elemental Magic of Zakhara located at http://www.dmsguild.com/product/173753/Elemental-Magic-of-Zakhara-AlQadim--Forgotten-Realms

A V beside a spell indicates it comes from the DM's guild offering by Thomas Schlüter called Necromancy After the Time of Troubles located at http://www.dmsguild.com/product/179971/Necromancy-After-the-Time-of-Troubles?filters=45469_0_0_0_0_0_0_0

A O beside a spell indicates it comes from the DM's guild offering by George Krashos called Spells of the Unapproachable East located at http://www.dmsguild.com/product/177091/Pages-From-the-Mages--The-Burning-Tome?filters=45469_0_0_0_0_0_0_0

A N beside a spell indicates it comes from the DM's guild offering by Polaron Posadas called Spells of the Unapproachable East located at http://www.dmsguild.com/product/185957/Spells-of-the-Unapproachable-East?filters=45469_0_0_0_0_0_0_0

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30203 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2017 :  13:44:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The worst they can do is tell you to take your work down and stop distributing it (but once its out there its difficult to stop its spread so its not worth their bother).



If money is changing hands, they will find it worth their bother -- they've done it before. The guy was only asking for money to host these character sheets he'd created, but since money was changing hands, WotC hit him with a Cease & Desist, and he had to take his stuff down.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6261 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2017 :  17:01:23  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If money remains uninvolved (no one's buying or selling the fan-made stuff) that's a non-issue.

If trespass onto WotC's IP is avoided (no one mentions things WotC put on their "things we own and you don't own" list) that's a non-issue.

If violation of WotC's copyright is avoided (no one Copy&Pastes or plagiarizes WotC's text/passages/artwork) that's a non-issue.

As the famous quote attributed to Ayn Rand asserts, don't avoid doing something you want to do unless somebody else wants you to avoid doing it. If WotC doesn't go out of their way to say it's wrong then it's not wrong, lol.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30203 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2017 :  19:26:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

If money remains uninvolved (no one's buying or selling the fan-made stuff) that's a non-issue.


In the case I referenced, no one was buying or selling. The money being requested was purely to pay for hosting the character sheets the dude had created for D&D.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14020 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2017 :  19:44:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You just put the CKC's on the DM's Guild, and put 'Pay What You Want', and any proceeds would go to the maintenance of this site. How can that be construed as anything but what is already happening with the DM's Guild, by their hand? They'd still be making money, and the CKC's could actually become a decent 'cash-cow' for them, if we maintain the quality they had in the past (and continue to get one or two 'insiders' to contribute every now and again).

I think its more of the folks running this site no longer wanting to bother... and thats okay. I can totally understand that - it was a LOT of work.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30203 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2017 :  20:36:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

You just put the CKC's on the DM's Guild, and put 'Pay What You Want', and any proceeds would go to the maintenance of this site. How can that be construed as anything but what is already happening with the DM's Guild, by their hand? They'd still be making money, and the CKC's could actually become a decent 'cash-cow' for them, if we maintain the quality they had in the past (and continue to get one or two 'insiders' to contribute every now and again).

I think its more of the folks running this site no longer wanting to bother... and thats okay. I can totally understand that - it was a LOT of work.



Perhaps I was mistaken, but I was thinking that people were discussing something other than the DM's Guild. If not, that was my bad entirely.

Me, I would encourage the use of the DM's Guild for people wanting to do their own Realmslore -- it's got a wider audience and the possibility of getting a little money out of it.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14020 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2017 :  20:48:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, if they were, then MY BAD. I didn't think that was the case, because at this point its not just a 'maybe' Cease & Desist, it would be a DEFINITE one.

Simply because THEY ARE giving us an avenue to create our own material, and publish it, and maybe even make a little something (and them as well). To try and publish your own material any other way would be stepping on this new venture of theirs, and they'd have to nip that right in the bud.

And it would be pointless, as well. We have the DM's Guild now; it really is the best solution - everyone wins. Now, if we could only get everyone behind a new CKC, and that would our 'brand' (I understand other groups are doing similar stuff, creating their own 'label'). Hell, we did it FIRST - it would be a damn shame to just let all that slip away. Plus, we got something the others lack - 'street cred'. Aside from having done NINE of them already, we also have contributors who have been PAID Realms designers & authors. No one can compete with that!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jul 2017 03:02:46
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 01 Jul 2017 :  23:36:59  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

If money remains uninvolved (no one's buying or selling the fan-made stuff) that's a non-issue.


In the case I referenced, no one was buying or selling. The money being requested was purely to pay for hosting the character sheets the dude had created for D&D.



That still involves an exchange of money for something D&D related. WotC is obviously going to clamp down on that. However, what I have in mind will involve zero money exchanged, not even a request for donations. So, the point is moot.

I attempted to head off this line of thinking in my OP in which I pointed out that there will be zero profit (that would include donations) made from the endeavor. Zero money will change hands--not even a penny.

I also attempted to head off the other frequent objection to something like this, which is that the material produced could be misconstrued as WotC material. This will not be the case, either.

In all instances, we will be using WotC's published material as they intended it. Namely, they sold us the materials under the assumption that we will use it with a group of friends to play games in a shared world with common lore. The people involved would constitute a group of friends, using their materials in the way they intended, and posting it online. It would be effectively no different than someone recording a gaming session and posting it online. Other people would be able to view that gaming session, comment on it, and even use ideas from it for their own games. They could even make what happened in that gaming session canon in their home Realms.

The only murky legal water that we might wade into involves using the 5E D&D rules, primarily because this could bump up against what they intend for the DM's Guild. The worst case scenario is that we would receive a C&D, asking us to take down rules related material. We would, of course, comply and then promptly make sure that everything is converted to Pathfinder.

In fact, what I have in mind is entirely rules-neutral. We are focused on Realmslore and not rules. However, I would still encourage people to share and post rules/gaming related material that they created as it relates to the Realms. I would want to see that for multiple systems, not just 5E D&D--which the DM's Guild locks us into if that is used. Our community is fractured enough, without further fracturing it with different rule systems.

I am waiting a few more days before I post further information because I want to give everyone the opportunity to respond to the poll. I want to see if we, as a community, can come to a loose consensus. The more ideas initially presented is more opportunity to fracture into a disagreement. What I want to see right now is whether or not the majority who respond believe that we should have a community-led effort to make new unofficial Realmslore, since WotC is no longer doing so at the same rate and in the same manner as they did in the past.

It seems that we do have a rather broad consensus on that and that the majority (at the moment) agree that the community should move in that direction. The next step is to discuss how we move forward, and will hopefully address some of the issues people are bringing up. If we can get a consensus there the next step is to deal with the edition issue and the existing canon.

Ideally, at each step we attempt to reach a consensus. In the end, people may disagree with various parts of the consensus, but will hopefully respect it and still decide to participate. That is also why I am giving this poll time to breathe, even though it is unlikely we are going to get many more respondents--at least not enough to change the result, since it is so clearly weighted in one direction.
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
656 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2017 :  07:15:56  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now you got me curious: what happened to the CKC? That was the thing that made me know this forum, and I though it was weird that there was no continuation after the 9th issue.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Jul 2017 07:16:56
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Clareus the Bard
Acolyte

Norway
1 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2017 :  09:14:22  Show Profile Send Clareus the Bard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would like to participate in creating material fornthe realms, be it for a CKC or for the DMsGuild. I have been toying with the idea of creating one or more regional guides on the realms for the DMsguild set in the 1490s, taking inspiration from the 2nd, 3rd, & 1st ed. d&d without disregarding any established canon. Though I think my time would be better spent helping this project.
I know I don't have any "street cred" on this website but I can assure you that I can be quite helpful on a project like this.

On the "issue" of where a project like this would be published, the biggest issue as I se it is that WotC could potentialy c&d this project if it were published anywhere else than DMsGuild, which is more likely now than before because it would in a small way benin competition with that site.
The plus side of publishing on DMsGuild is that if this project gains enough credibility online then it could reach a larger number of people, so to encourage them (the ones who want to expand the world of their realms, but don't know where to start) to play in a realms we all are so fond of, and not just as a "realms-light backdrop". (And since I'm kind'a repeating Markustay: )

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, if they were, then MY BAD. I didn't think that was the case, because at this point its not just a 'maybe' Cease & Desist, it would be a DEFINITE one.

Simply because THEY ARE giving us an avenue to create our own material, and publish it, and maybe even make a little something (and them as well). To try and publish your own material any other way would be stepping on this new venture of theirs, and they'd have to nip that right in the bud.

And it would be pointless, as well. We have the DM's Guild now; it really is the best solution - everyone wins. Now, if we could only get everyone behind a new CKC, and that would our 'brand' (I understand other groups are doing similar stuff, creating their own 'label'). Hell, we did it FIRST - it would be a damn shame to just let all that slip away. Plus, we got something the others lack - 'street cred'. Aside from having done NINE of them already, we also have contributors who have been PAID Realms designers & authors. No one can compete with that!



The plus side of publishing here is that this site has a much greater credibility for long-time fans of the realms than DMsGuild. The DMsGuild also in its terms of agreement for publishing material there specifies that any material published there can't be published elsewhere.

Another reason for me wanting to work on a group project rather than solo is that it's nearly impossible to learn all the established lore as one person, so that for me at least it would be superb to have other realms fans looking at my material before any gets published (quality control and all that).
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
233 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2017 :  13:20:57  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If fans want to document and present the actual canon lore of the Forgotten Realms, then don't forget the Forgotten Realms Wiki. Developing wiki articles is a great way to collect and compile lore and bring disconnected tidbits together for a more complete view. Putting information from different books on one page just makes things so much clearer. They're also very useful references for players to present their PC's background or a DM to illustrate a setting or history or just to add flavour, or for lore and setting discussion speculation. By working on the Forgotten Realms Wiki, I've resolved so many previously confusing or contradictory topics and made fragmented areas of the Realms look much more whole and ripe for development.

Or, if you want to create and publish homebrew lore and fanon (stuff that's not canon but widely adopted by fans), then consider creating a homebrew-focused wiki. Wikia will let anyone create a wiki. It would have the benefits of the FRW, but be able to present fans' own creations instead. Wiki pages allow multiple people to work on an article, so users can more easily collaborate and add to or revise other's work. Two people can develop a realm at the same time. Users can get straight to article creation, focusing more on lore development and writing rather than community discussion, and they can work at their own pace on their own interests. Then it's up there for everyone else to look at and use or ignore. People regularly try to put homebrew, fanon, and their own PCs on the FRW, which we can't take for our canon & licensed focus, so I think there's a real need for this. It would need a common community understanding of the scope of the project and a direction to take things in, and might produce conflicts and multiple versions of topics, but these can be resolved with discussion and compromise, based around a set of shared values (for example, the old Greenwood adage of closing one plothook and opening two more).

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki and Candlekeep Wiki
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3463 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2017 :  14:38:55  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does this wikia make heavy use of ads. Thats one reason why i dont use it that often, the ads tank my machine.
Otherwise a wiki is exactly what i want to do

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30203 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2017 :  15:36:38  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Now you got me curious: what happened to the CKC? That was the thing that made me know this forum, and I though it was weird that there was no continuation after the 9th issue.



4E and the draconian GSL happened. No one could get a straight answer out of WotC whether or not fan-produced material was okay, and we were too divided about the changes to the Realms to come to any sort of consensus. I'll call myself out, on that one -- though I eventually relented, I myself was initially unwilling to participate if there was post-Spellplague content included.

The topic of continuing has come up more than once, but it's never gotten past people saying they're interested.

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KoraxtheGhoul
Acolyte

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 02 Jul 2017 :  17:07:31  Show Profile Send KoraxtheGhoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
New to the forums, but from what I can tell it would make more sense to publish through the DM's Guild. There is no question of legality at that point. FR is not covered in the OGL.
http://support.dmsguild.com/hc/en-us/articles/217520927-Ownership-and-License-OGL-Questions

That being said as a community, we could work to create content for the DM's Guild. It would have to be 5e though.
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Imrathil
Acolyte

Greece
12 Posts

Posted - 03 Jul 2017 :  23:41:31  Show Profile Send Imrathil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus

Is there a reason not to go the route of the DM's Guild?

I believe the only reason would be that content would have to be for 5th edition or be edition-free, which might turn off some people here who still play older editions.



There is also the issue of organization. How people organize, use, and distribute information is constrained by the platform, as well as how participation is solicited.

The DM's Guild is good for one person or small group projects. That is not what I am suggesting here, and it is not what I have in mind. As discussed by Markustay, George Krashos, and others things like this have been attempted in the past and most ended in failure. There needs to be a different way of doing things that are both more open and less reliant on certain key individuals. It also needs to break things down into smaller chunks which make things more achieveable.

Of course, once things work their way through the process they could then be organized in such a way as to be suitable for the DM's Guild. However, as you point out KanzenAU, they would have to use 5th Edition D&D rules.



Voted yes. Its up to the community now as its clear that the Realms are on the highway to Shar's dark embrace of extinction.

Also agree with dazzlerdal on the monstrosity that is DMs Guild.

Aldrick, could Planewalker (http://mimir.planewalker.com/) be something like what you have in mind? Or maybe and to a lesser extent http://www.athas.org/ ?

"Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name"

-- Icelander
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2008 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2017 :  18:25:59  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For now, I am undecided. On the one hand, I think it's a great idea, but on the other hand, it would be hard to organize, and we have different ideas on what we want the Realms to be. I certainly had an idea concerning some things, and I had been thinking of posting it to the DMsGuild, but it's kind of taken a backseat now.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14020 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2017 :  19:01:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the biggest roadblock to this, as opposed to any such deterrent in times past, is the 'eras' thing. We did not have to contend with that nonsense when the 1st 9 CKC's were produced.

What time period would we want to set the articles in? Also, they would have to contain a certain percentage of 'crunch'... 5e crunch (despite the era in which the majority of the article were to take place).

'Historic' pieces would work best for that. Some history of an item (or several related items), etc., and then some rules tacked on. The other way to go is to write about stuff that hasn't had any lore before - in that way, it would be 'era free' (you decide what time period the 'now' of the article is). Thats a bit trickier, and would also require us to write about areas and such that not many people might care about (*cough* Ormpur *cough*).

And what would be the point of doing articles on places/people/things no-one really cares about?

Which means we have to create new stuff, whole-cloth (which isn't a bad idea, really), or stick with those "history of such-N-such" style articles (like Krash's article on the Impiltur Swords of State).

And unlike past editions of the CKC, we'd not only need a good editor, we'd need someone very familiar with the rules to check the mechanics... which we never needed before.

Oh, and I finally found a copy of the mock-up cover I did for a volume X of the CKC.
Tempted, yet?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 06 Jul 2017 19:07:44
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 06 Jul 2017 :  21:32:52  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, it has been a week. We've received 40 responses and the results are clear. I posted the next proposal here, which is to begin discussing how we will organize.

If we can get some consensus there then the next step is to discuss how we handle issues around the various editions and bring back together various segments of the community.
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