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Diffan
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Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  17:27:26  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So my group just finished Chapter 2 of Anauroch: Empire of Shade and they got quite a few shadow weave items. Unfortunately for them no one has the Shadow Weave feat and while its not "required" to wield them, they're not inclined to do when it deals Wisdom damage over time. So I was wondering, is there a ritual or a series of effects that are used in removing their shadowy essence? And if so, would the item retain its magic or simply fade away and become mundane?





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sleyvas
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Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  17:54:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Officially under 3.5 rules? I don't believe so. HOWEVER, given that shar controls the shadow weave, and given that she's evil, I personally would allow the "redeeming evil magic items" rules found in the Book of Exalted Deeds to work for a holy person of a god with a basis in some form of magic that would be related to the item. By that, I mean holy persons of Mystra could probably convert nearly all shadow weave items. Holy persons of Azuth could probably convert nearly all arcane shadow weave items. Holy persons of Savras/Leira/Velsharoon could convert nearly all divination/illusion/necromancy based shadow weave items. Holy persons of Deneir could convert writing based shadow weave items. Holy persons of Milil/Oghma/Finder could convert bardic shadow weave items.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  18:15:27  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Immerse them in a pool of radiance and id allow them to be used as weave items.

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Diffan
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Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  18:59:39  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Officially under 3.5 rules? I don't believe so. HOWEVER, given that shar controls the shadow weave, and given that she's evil, I personally would allow the "redeeming evil magic items" rules found in the Book of Exalted Deeds to work for a holy person of a god with a basis in some form of magic that would be related to the item. By that, I mean holy persons of Mystra could probably convert nearly all shadow weave items. Holy persons of Azuth could probably convert nearly all arcane shadow weave items. Holy persons of Savras/Leira/Velsharoon could convert nearly all divination/illusion/necromancy based shadow weave items. Holy persons of Deneir could convert writing based shadow weave items. Holy persons of Milil/Oghma/Finder could convert bardic shadow weave items.



The items they've come across so far are either martial or arcane in nature. So a normal +1 shadow weave longsword could be turned into a regular +1 longsword by any divine agent but the staff of evocation they found would need a cleric of Mystra or Azuth....interesting take. They have some Research and Development time coming up where they're going to be moving about the Realms quite a bit, I sense a possible side-quest in the making.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Immerse them in a pool of radiance and id allow them to be used as weave items.


cool concept, though are there any active Pools around in 1374 DR? I can always throw one in but it'd have to be a pretty remote place....with Dracoliches....

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 11 Jun 2017 :  21:57:25  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as I understand it the Pools of Radiance are possibly tied to Embrurshaille's ritual that attempted to elevate her to a higher level of magic use beyond normal dragons. The ritual went awry and drained all magic and life from the land before it was known as Thar and may continue to do so (blocked only by the forest north of Phlan). I think there may be the potential for them to move (as Tyranthraxus was bound to one after his residual form was hurled into it (I believe his body was destroyed by Embrurshaille's ritual turning him into the possessing spirit) but I don't think that pool was actually located inside the castle in Phlan at the time so either it moved or there were multiple pools (which may also be true as any concentration of magic at the time of Embrurshaille's ritual coalesced into a pool of raw magic).

If so then Iyrauroth almost certainly knows how to perform the ritual and has possibly done so with some success (using limited and weaker variations of the ritual) but he may also know how to create Pools of Radiance (a byproduct of the failed ritual).

Iyrauroth is a dangerously underplayed foe in the realms. He has access to the magic of dwarven and ogre and orc empires as well as the secrets of Northkeep and he has potentially engineered the destruction of all those empires/kingdoms. Plus I'm pretty sure it was Iyrauroth that organised the attack on Ravens Bluff to get hold of the Annasherion (a source of limitless magic that he could use to power Embrurshaille's ritual which only fails when it drains all magic from an area - and it needs a lot of magic).


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Bakra
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619 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2017 :  22:22:22  Show Profile Send Bakra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

As far as I understand it the Pools of Radiance are possibly tied to Embrurshaille's ritual that attempted to elevate her to a higher level of magic use beyond normal dragons. The ritual went awry and drained all magic and life from the land before it was known as Thar and may continue to do so (blocked only by the forest north of Phlan). I think there may be the potential for them to move (as Tyranthraxus was bound to one after his residual form was hurled into it (I believe his body was destroyed by Embrurshaille's ritual turning him into the possessing spirit) but I don't think that pool was actually located inside the castle in Phlan at the time so either it moved or there were multiple pools (which may also be true as any concentration of magic at the time of Embrurshaille's ritual coalesced into a pool of raw magic).

If so then Iyrauroth almost certainly knows how to perform the ritual and has possibly done so with some success (using limited and weaker variations of the ritual) but he may also know how to create Pools of Radiance (a byproduct of the failed ritual).

Iyrauroth is a dangerously underplayed foe in the realms. He has access to the magic of dwarven and ogre and orc empires as well as the secrets of Northkeep and he has potentially engineered the destruction of all those empires/kingdoms. Plus I'm pretty sure it was Iyrauroth that organised the attack on Ravens Bluff to get hold of the Annasherion (a source of limitless magic that he could use to power Embrurshaille's ritual which only fails when it drains all magic from an area - and it needs a lot of magic).





I never heard of Embrurshaille, what source does this come from?

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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
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Posted - 12 Jun 2017 :  23:46:14  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is the only source I have found:

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/cauldron-monsters

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 13 Jun 2017 :  04:01:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd go for some sort of attunement process, myself... Maybe something like bathing the item in question with Weave magic for a specific length of time (maybe even something as simple as Nystul's magic aura, for something like 1 day or 10 days per +1), then following that up with a process similar to enchanting a regular device -- save for it being cheaper, perhaps, because the enchantments are already there, you're just replacing the power source.

Of course, I'm a flavor person, not a rules guy, so I approach it from that angle.

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Diffan
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USA
3434 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2017 :  06:41:05  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'd go for some sort of attunement process, myself... Maybe something like bathing the item in question with Weave magic for a specific length of time (maybe even something as simple as Nystul's magic aura, for something like 1 day or 10 days per +1), then following that up with a process similar to enchanting a regular device -- save for it being cheaper, perhaps, because the enchantments are already there, you're just replacing the power source.

Of course, I'm a flavor person, not a rules guy, so I approach it from that angle.



Excellent idea.

What I think I'm going to go with is actually use all of these ideas. They're different options the players can choose depending on the ease of which the atonement (for lack of a better word) process works.

The first and easiest process is simply dipping the weapons into a Pool of Radiance. Unfortunately for them there's only a few people who know where a Pool is such as Evaine, a sorceress of great renown (a main character in the Pool's series) and Iyrauroth (a scary CR 22 great black wyurm) who knows where a pool is AND how to create it.

The second is harder due to the process described in the Book of Exalted Deeds supplement and finding a priest(ess) who can safely convert the items, not alone how much it'll cost to do.

The third is, as Wooly describes, more narrative in the approach BUT chances are they're not likely to have the items when they'll need them as the process takes longer.


Great ideas and thanks to everyone's contribution . If anyone has other ideas I'd love to put them into the game as possibilities for the PCs to explore.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 13 Jun 2017 06:41:33
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RDS
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Posted - 13 Jun 2017 :  13:45:34  Show Profile Send RDS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With Wooley's process you might even want to consider a small percentage chance that the magic could warp and the item becomes a cursed item.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 13 Jun 2017 :  14:21:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RDS

With Wooley's process you might even want to consider a small percentage chance that the magic could warp and the item becomes a cursed item.



This is a nifty thought, though I'd expand on it and apply that to any method used, since this isn't a normal enchantment process.

And I'd actually go it a bit further... Maybe the item isn't cursed, but has a chance to trigger a wild surge, per the wild magic tables (assuming that's still a thing in 5E; if not, refer to the tables from a prior edition).

Or you could reference one of my favorite articles from Dragon magazine: "Magic Gone Haywire." This article was in issue 163, the very first Dragon I read, on pages 26-30, 52-54. It presents a bunch of tables for magical items, giving them odd, non-standard quirks. Some would be annoying, like an item that always buries itself at the bottom of any container it's in. Some could be handy in specific circumstances, like a waterproof scroll. And others wouldn't be handy or irksome, like a potion that worked normally but also turned the drinker blue.

I would justify any of these things by saying that the process of replacing Shadow Weave magic with Weave magic is an imperfect one, since the two magics are somewhat incompatible.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Jun 2017 :  15:00:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Officially under 3.5 rules? I don't believe so. HOWEVER, given that shar controls the shadow weave, and given that she's evil, I personally would allow the "redeeming evil magic items" rules found in the Book of Exalted Deeds to work for a holy person of a god with a basis in some form of magic that would be related to the item. By that, I mean holy persons of Mystra could probably convert nearly all shadow weave items. Holy persons of Azuth could probably convert nearly all arcane shadow weave items. Holy persons of Savras/Leira/Velsharoon could convert nearly all divination/illusion/necromancy based shadow weave items. Holy persons of Deneir could convert writing based shadow weave items. Holy persons of Milil/Oghma/Finder could convert bardic shadow weave items.



The items they've come across so far are either martial or arcane in nature. So a normal +1 shadow weave longsword could be turned into a regular +1 longsword by any divine agent but the staff of evocation they found would need a cleric of Mystra or Azuth....interesting take. They have some Research and Development time coming up where they're going to be moving about the Realms quite a bit, I sense a possible side-quest in the making.




One thing I'll note here as it can be useful, I specified "holy person", and the rules for redeeming evil items don't require a specifically clerical person. It may not apply to your group, but I could see paladins being able to do this. Similarly, archivists from Heroes of Horror fit this mold well if they serve a deity of "magic" such as Deneir, Azuth, or Mystra. I could also see wizards/sorcerers/bards with the arcane devotee prestige class being able to do this. I could also see fighter types with divine champion and rogue types with divine seeker (which you could have some weird entries here with bards, beguilers, spellthieves, warmages, dread necromancers, etc.. of Leira, Velsharoon, Azuth, Mili, Deneir, etc...). Also, there's some feats specific to certain deities that I'd say would also qualify you enough to be holy enough, as a minor extra benefit to taking the feat.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 13 Jun 2017 :  15:09:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by RDS

With Wooley's process you might even want to consider a small percentage chance that the magic could warp and the item becomes a cursed item.



This is a nifty thought, though I'd expand on it and apply that to any method used, since this isn't a normal enchantment process.

And I'd actually go it a bit further... Maybe the item isn't cursed, but has a chance to trigger a wild surge, per the wild magic tables (assuming that's still a thing in 5E; if not, refer to the tables from a prior edition).

Or you could reference one of my favorite articles from Dragon magazine: "Magic Gone Haywire." This article was in issue 163, the very first Dragon I read, on pages 26-30, 52-54. It presents a bunch of tables for magical items, giving them odd, non-standard quirks. Some would be annoying, like an item that always buries itself at the bottom of any container it's in. Some could be handy in specific circumstances, like a waterproof scroll. And others wouldn't be handy or irksome, like a potion that worked normally but also turned the drinker blue.

I would justify any of these things by saying that the process of replacing Shadow Weave magic with Weave magic is an imperfect one, since the two magics are somewhat incompatible.



I'd definitely say I like this. I'd also say that if you went the method I was talking about similar to redeeming evil items, any quirks should somewhat mirror the ethos of the deity involved. By that, don't convert some necromantic rod and have it shoot out bursts of butterflies periodically... however, if it accidentally created some vampire bats or a swarm of bloodthirsty mosquitos.... or a Leiran changed weapon might create accidental lines of prismatic effects or change the appearance of the person, etc...

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Diffan
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3434 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2017 :  19:24:23  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by RDS

With Wooley's process you might even want to consider a small percentage chance that the magic could warp and the item becomes a cursed item.



This is a nifty thought, though I'd expand on it and apply that to any method used, since this isn't a normal enchantment process.

And I'd actually go it a bit further... Maybe the item isn't cursed, but has a chance to trigger a wild surge, per the wild magic tables (assuming that's still a thing in 5E; if not, refer to the tables from a prior edition).

Or you could reference one of my favorite articles from Dragon magazine: "Magic Gone Haywire." This article was in issue 163, the very first Dragon I read, on pages 26-30, 52-54. It presents a bunch of tables for magical items, giving them odd, non-standard quirks. Some would be annoying, like an item that always buries itself at the bottom of any container it's in. Some could be handy in specific circumstances, like a waterproof scroll. And others wouldn't be handy or irksome, like a potion that worked normally but also turned the drinker blue.

I would justify any of these things by saying that the process of replacing Shadow Weave magic with Weave magic is an imperfect one, since the two magics are somewhat incompatible.



While the adventure is set for 3.5 D&D the Wild Magic Surge table for the Sorcerer in the 5E PHB is a great place to grab random effects from (or a rod of wonder) but yea, that's a nifty idea too. Or to combine this and RDS's idea of Cursed Items, it could be a % chance that it's converted normally, random wild surge, cursed, loses ALL properties (thus becoming a masterwork weapon/armor or just a stick if we're talking about a wand or staff). There's lots of ways of going about it.

quote:
Originally posted by Sleyvas

I'd definitely say I like this. I'd also say that if you went the method I was talking about similar to redeeming evil items, any quirks should somewhat mirror the ethos of the deity involved. By that, don't convert some necromantic rod and have it shoot out bursts of butterflies periodically... however, if it accidentally created some vampire bats or a swarm of bloodthirsty mosquitos.... or a Leiran changed weapon might create accidental lines of prismatic effects or change the appearance of the person, etc...


Oh, that's sweet too! For example the Staff of Evocation they have could produce some sort of silvery-fire (in description, not actual silver fire) because it's converted by a divine caster of Mystra or maybe a wand of charm person that was converted by a Divine character of Sharess might have some sort of hypotic pattern effect that possibly effects everyone, etc.

That would certainly make them really consider the person they're asking to convert these potentially dangerous shadow weave items for sure!

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 13 Jun 2017 :  19:57:30  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'd go for some sort of attunement process, myself... Maybe something like bathing the item in question with Weave magic for a specific length of time (maybe even something as simple as Nystul's magic aura, for something like 1 day or 10 days per +1), then following that up with a process similar to enchanting a regular device -- save for it being cheaper, perhaps, because the enchantments are already there, you're just replacing the power source.

There's also that "eternal flame" spell from Volo’s Guide to All Things Magical, which has no other purpose but attuning things to Weave magic.
quote:
Originally posted by RDS

With Wooley's process you might even want to consider a small percentage chance that the magic could warp and the item becomes a cursed item.

I'd rather expect an attempt to directly displace Shadow Weave magic with main Weave magic to end up much like that Vangey's toy in Tilverton: go boom and leave a nice little smouldering crater. Accompanied by surge and tearing both Weaves and possibly Realmspace itself a new one spots of wild and dead magic left in and around it and/or a minor planar rift.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

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30431 Posts

Posted - 13 Jun 2017 :  20:13:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'd go for some sort of attunement process, myself... Maybe something like bathing the item in question with Weave magic for a specific length of time (maybe even something as simple as Nystul's magic aura, for something like 1 day or 10 days per +1), then following that up with a process similar to enchanting a regular device -- save for it being cheaper, perhaps, because the enchantments are already there, you're just replacing the power source.

There's also that "eternal flame" spell from Volo’s Guide to All Things Magical, which has no other purpose but attuning things to Weave magic.


Good call. I thought there was a more suitable spell, but I was drawing a blank on the name, and since I'm at work, I didn't have a lot of time to check.


quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by RDS

With Wooley's process you might even want to consider a small percentage chance that the magic could warp and the item becomes a cursed item.

I'd rather expect an attempt to directly displace Shadow Weave magic with main Weave magic to end up much like that Vangey's toy in Tilverton: go boom and leave a nice little smouldering crater. Accompanied by surge and tearing both Weaves and possibly Realmspace itself a new one spots of wild and dead magic left in and around it and/or a minor planar rift.



I would think that wasn't a universal happenstance; otherwise, there would be a lot of smoldering craters, all over the Realms, from where Shadow Weave and Weave magic came into contact.

However... It should be easy enough to come up with some sort of containment -- perhaps a magic circle that creates the equivalent of a magic dead area that only affects the Shadow Weave (perhaps by saturation with Weave magic). Put the Shadow Weave item in there, hit it with that spell by the Bangles, maybe keep it very illuminated (Shadow Weave magic, as I recall, is diminished in bright light), wait a few days, and then the item is ready for the Weave enchantments.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 13 Jun 2017 :  23:48:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One thing that comes to mind... Sharran priest gets shadow weave item. Sharran priest doesn't have the shadow magic feats. Sharran priest swaps that item so that she can use it. Does she lose favor with Shar?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 14 Jun 2017 :  01:47:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

One thing that comes to mind... Sharran priest gets shadow weave item. Sharran priest doesn't have the shadow magic feats. Sharran priest swaps that item so that she can use it. Does she lose favor with Shar?



I would say not. No deity is going to make a big deal about their priests not wanting to use something they can't use. That diminishes their effectiveness.

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