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 Who was the first lich in FR?
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe

97 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  17:25:16  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Alternatively, who was the first humanoid lich?

sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  18:07:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think we even remotely know the answer to that. Nor the first vampire or pretty much any other undead (we may have an answer maybe on something newly created, for instance the undead created during the Thayan rebellion by Xingax).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
851 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  18:13:34  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess the first liches are those Sarrukhs liches from the age of thunder...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  04:14:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Sarrukh liches were probably the earliest (I recall some odd Gnoll mummies that were pretty ancient/primordial as well) in canon lore.

The oldest 'humanoid' lich on record would probably be that Elven one thats linked to the Calimemnon Crystal.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  06:47:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just because there were Sarrukh and they became liches, don't fall into the trap that they were the first liches. It very well could have been a different race and the Sarrukh copied them.... especially given that the Sarrukh were known for stealing from other magical races (remember the ba'etith). Also, just because the Sarrukh were one of the most powerful original creator races, doesn't mean that they were the only intelligent spellcasting races back then. They were just one of the first races to play "god" and start making other races. Its easy to fall into that trap/mindset based upon the documented history.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
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Colombia
851 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  09:16:46  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, they are the first documented oldest race in the Realms (if I'm not missing anything). Even predate batrachi, giants and dragons.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3601 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  11:34:50  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well if you hold George Krashos' work in high regard (and i do), then spellweavers were around before sarrukh in faerun and they may have had a few rogue members embrace lichdom

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sleyvas
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USA
6216 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  11:59:39  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, they are the first documented oldest race in the Realms (if I'm not missing anything). Even predate batrachi, giants and dragons.



That's the trap I'm talking about. The Sarrukh are in fact the oldest creator race. They are one of the oldest races in the realms. However, there were other races around. These other races did have magic. What were those other races? Undocumented and undeveloped territory ripe for the picking.

I like the idea of spellweavers being around back then as Daz says. I also like the idea that not all sharn are transformed elves, and maybe they were around back then. Phaerimm <sp?> as well would make good races for back then. Note, the sharn and phaerimm likely were less powerful in magic back then. Aboleths would fit, as would ixitachitl, Tako, and blue ring octopi. Also, the batrachi grew from some other stock, so a couple variations of frog and salamander folk could fit (fire newts, grippli, bullywugs), as well as various other types of lizard man stock.

Plus, we're also making the assumption that the idea of lichdom was developed back then. It may have been that back then they had only just uncovered certain types of undead (for instance simple mummification). The Sarrukh have survived to modern days even so the Sarrukh liches could have come about at any time in history. It very well could have been humans that uncovered the secret of lichdom for all we know... or someone could have uncovered the secret from another world and brought it here.... or a lich from another world could have come to Toril.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 08 Jun 2017 12:13:51
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14551 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  19:56:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's my biggest problem with the Sarrukh Liches - WHY?

We have lore that says 'Death' didn't exist until after the first death, during the Godswar. That would have had to taken place before - and may even overlap with - The Sundering,

We KNOW (from the GHotR) that the Creatori (Creator Races - why can't I get everyone else on-board with that term? LOL) existed in the First World, BEFORE the separation of Abeir and Toril. That means - although 'born of the Prime Material' in a manner different from the celestial beings that came before, they would have still been IMMORTAL (barring sickness or an accident), simply because 'Death' didn't exist yet.

I've been going with this theory all along. In fact, I'm pretty sure I first started toying with it even before the GHotR came out (I theorized that the 'Days of Thunder' preceded The Sundering, which proved to be true). It makes perfect sense to me that these 'Creator Races' were themselves inherently immortal, which would include Fey, Batrachi, Aearee and even Mankind - I like the idea that humans have become steadily less 'immortal' over the centuries - there may be some 'High men' around {idea stolen from the MERP setting}, but almost no 'originals' - most worlds might have one, at most (because there can be only one). The Fey have done slightly better - sometimes you can find a group of 'True Fey' (LeShay) still working together, but most of these surviving immortals - from all five races - have become wanderers and loners, for the most part.

Sooooo... if Sarrukh are immortal, why lichdom? What would be the point? Was that their 'final solution' to true immortality (so even beyond sickness and accidents)? I can see how it possibly might have benefitted them if they wanted to enter that comatose state themselves - they wouldn't need food or water (I am supposing starvation would be another way for an immortal to die). Of course, with all their power, you'd think they could have come up with some form of magical 'suspended animation'.

Or is that their lichdom is somehow different? That they aren't true liches at all... they they ARE something closer to how vampires can become 'dormant' without sustenance for long periods of time; they become dessicated husks... but only until a time when they felt it was right to fully revive themselves (so a 'Sarrukh Lich' could just drink some water and rehydrate LOL).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jun 2017 19:56:59
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
851 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  22:51:16  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aren't the archfey the first fey race? Or that is a 4e. stuff?

As for the sarrukh liches, I guess their first ones may have born out of desperation a few months/years after death was born. Just imagine people accustomed to not die suddenly dying. I guess many of them did whatever it took to remain "alive".

Or maybe, their lichdom is similar to the Uthenera...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 08 Jun 2017 22:54:27
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  23:51:34  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Here's my biggest problem with the Sarrukh Liches - WHY?

We have lore that says 'Death' didn't exist until after the first death, during the Godswar. That would have had to taken place before - and may even overlap with - The Sundering,


I've never really understood how you came to the stance that the Creator Races were immortal - is there a source on this? We've heard the god of death is created through the battles of Selune and Shar - I was kind of assuming this occurred before the Creator Races popped up.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6216 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  01:39:58  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Here's my biggest problem with the Sarrukh Liches - WHY?

We have lore that says 'Death' didn't exist until after the first death, during the Godswar. That would have had to taken place before - and may even overlap with - The Sundering,

We KNOW (from the GHotR) that the Creatori (Creator Races - why can't I get everyone else on-board with that term? LOL) existed in the First World, BEFORE the separation of Abeir and Toril. That means - although 'born of the Prime Material' in a manner different from the celestial beings that came before, they would have still been IMMORTAL (barring sickness or an accident), simply because 'Death' didn't exist yet.

I've been going with this theory all along. In fact, I'm pretty sure I first started toying with it even before the GHotR came out (I theorized that the 'Days of Thunder' preceded The Sundering, which proved to be true). It makes perfect sense to me that these 'Creator Races' were themselves inherently immortal, which would include Fey, Batrachi, Aearee and even Mankind - I like the idea that humans have become steadily less 'immortal' over the centuries - there may be some 'High men' around {idea stolen from the MERP setting}, but almost no 'originals' - most worlds might have one, at most (because there can be only one). The Fey have done slightly better - sometimes you can find a group of 'True Fey' (LeShay) still working together, but most of these surviving immortals - from all five races - have become wanderers and loners, for the most part.

Sooooo... if Sarrukh are immortal, why lichdom? What would be the point? Was that their 'final solution' to true immortality (so even beyond sickness and accidents)? I can see how it possibly might have benefitted them if they wanted to enter that comatose state themselves - they wouldn't need food or water (I am supposing starvation would be another way for an immortal to die). Of course, with all their power, you'd think they could have come up with some form of magical 'suspended animation'.

Or is that their lichdom is somehow different? That they aren't true liches at all... they they ARE something closer to how vampires can become 'dormant' without sustenance for long periods of time; they become dessicated husks... but only until a time when they felt it was right to fully revive themselves (so a 'Sarrukh Lich' could just drink some water and rehydrate LOL).




Ah, I'd personally take that lore and spin it... as in "death" didn't exist wherein your soul left your body and went to an outer plane. However, you did "die"... your soul left your body, got absorbed by another being being born, and you lived your life again without any knowledge of your previous life (and you might not even come back as the same race or even species).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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