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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2017 :  15:12:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

To point, on this particular thread, my complaint was to one thing. "The Xanathar's Guide to Everything". If its not filled with Waterdhavian underworld information relating to Xanathar or even undermountain, just please use another name for the title. As someone else said, if its a new class options lorebook.... Unearthed Arcana ... Forgotten Folio... Eldritch Options Exposed... some other made up name's guide to everything. Just as people get fed up with people re-releasing old TV shows just to use the name to get people to watch something, the same can go with print products. Now, if this comes out and it does have a lot to do with Xanathar, I'll eat my words. I also wouldn't say I'm pissed, but I would call it nauseatingly annoyed.... it makes me go "what, these people can't think of anything better than this? Are they that unoriginal?".





This is my stance, as well.

As for the product itself, based on the description, it is not something I have any reason to comment on. A book of supplemental rules for playing 5E characters is something that simply doesn't apply to me, since I don't play 5E. So I've no commentary, positive or negative, to offer on the content of the book.

As Sleyvas said, though, my one complaint is that they have used a Realms-specific title to refer to something purely core; if the content is not Realms-specific, the title should not imply that it is.

I'm not a fan of Greyhawk (I mildly dislike the setting, in fact), but I'd have the same complaint if it was Mordenkainen's Guide to Everything.

To borrow an analogy I used a while ago, if you make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with regular, store-bought supplies, sell it as a regular PBJ. Don't tell me it's gourmet when there is nothing special about it.

We have now spent more time discussing why we object the name of this product than we spent objecting to it. Thanks?

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Jun 2017 15:17:27
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2017 :  21:23:18  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


As for the product itself, based on the description, it is not something I have any reason to comment on. A book of supplemental rules for playing 5E characters is something that simply doesn't apply to me, since I don't play 5E. So I've no commentary, positive or negative, to offer on the content of the book.

As Sleyvas said, though, my one complaint is that they have used a Realms-specific title to refer to something purely core; if the content is not Realms-specific, the title should not imply that it is.


There is no such thing as "Core" anymore. It's a out-dated word that honestly has no place in WotC's current business model. Which is pretty much made clear with their distinction between things like free Unearthed Arcana articles and stuff that's published and their overall push for the Adventure League.

They're using the title of Xanathar simply because it's a cool sounding name, has some tie-ins to the Forgotten Realms, and to hopefully pique the interests of people who might have heard of it and want to see what it's about. That's basically about it. Getting mad or complaining about it doesn't solve anything.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm not a fan of Greyhawk (I mildly dislike the setting, in fact), but I'd have the same complaint if it was Mordenkainen's Guide to Everything.


You mean like Mordenkainen's Magical Emporium, a 4th Edition Book published to sell more magical items and item sets that had little to do with the wizard? Yea again, this treatment is nothing new or all that surprising. For one, I really liked that particular book and thought using Mordenkainen's name was clever.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

We have now spent more time discussing why we object the name of this product than we spent objecting to it. Thanks?



Which has literally gotten us no where.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3385 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2017 :  22:14:15  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
They're using the title of Xanathar simply because it's a cool sounding name, has some tie-ins to the Forgotten Realms, and to hopefully pique the interests of people who might have heard of it and want to see what it's about. That's basically about it. Getting mad or complaining about it doesn't solve anything.


Of course, if you dont like something then keep quiet about it lest you risk upsetting others with your different opinion, and everyone knows complaining achieves nothing anyway. Things only ever change when you shut your mouth and go along with the norm.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 06 Jun 2017 :  22:17:49  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose the one saving grace of 5e is that it hasnt actually contributed much to the realms. So when 6e comes out next year it wont be difficult for them to erase what has happened (or not as the case may be).

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Diffan
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USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2017 :  22:54:59  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

quote:
They're using the title of Xanathar simply because it's a cool sounding name, has some tie-ins to the Forgotten Realms, and to hopefully pique the interests of people who might have heard of it and want to see what it's about. That's basically about it. Getting mad or complaining about it doesn't solve anything.


Of course, if you dont like something then keep quiet about it lest you risk upsetting others with your different opinion, and everyone knows complaining achieves nothing anyway. Things only ever change when you shut your mouth and go along with the norm.



yep that'll show em!

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2017 :  23:09:53  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I suppose the one saving grace of 5e is that it hasnt actually contributed much to the realms. So when 6e comes out next year it wont be difficult for them to erase what has happened (or not as the case may be).



If thats true then why complain so much ahout a system you apparently don't play or like and books you don't intend to buy? Seeme like wasted energy to me...

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  01:43:55  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

We have now spent more time discussing why we object the name of this product than we spent objecting to it. Thanks?



Which has literally gotten us no where.



Except into a circular argument about whether or not the intended audience of a product has a right to offer any commentary on it...

It's really disappointing that it has come to this.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Jun 2017 02:53:21
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  03:14:17  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Which has literally gotten us no where.



Except into a circular argument about whether or not the intended audience of a product has a right to offer any commentary on it...

It's really disappointing that it has come to this.



Who's that intended audience? You? Wait...."A book of supplemental rules for playing 5E characters is something that simply doesn't apply to me, since I don't play 5E." so nope. I also never said once said people don't have a right to voice concerns, all I saod was that it's just pointless.

But I'd love to discuss the actual book

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 07 Jun 2017 03:15:53
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  03:26:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Which has literally gotten us no where.



Except into a circular argument about whether or not the intended audience of a product has a right to offer any commentary on it...

It's really disappointing that it has come to this.



Who's that intended audience? You? Wait...."A book of supplemental rules for playing 5E characters is something that simply doesn't apply to me, since I don't play 5E." so nope.


The fact that it uses the name of a prominent Forgotten Realms character obviously means they intend fans of the Realms to buy it. If you don't know the Realms, you don't know who Xanathar is... It's not like they couldn't have come up with any other name that sounded cool.

Therefore, the logical conclusion is that the people here, complaining about the name, are part of the intended audience.

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

I also never said once said people don't have a right to voice concerns, all I saod was that it's just pointless.


No, you just went out of your way to mischaracterize, dismiss, and belittle people's complaints.

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

But I'd love to discuss the actual book



Maybe you should have started with that, then, instead of insulting people.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  05:54:22  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Which has literally gotten us no where.



Except into a circular argument about whether or not the intended audience of a product has a right to offer any commentary on it...

It's really disappointing that it has come to this.



Who's that intended audience? You? Wait...."A book of supplemental rules for playing 5E characters is something that simply doesn't apply to me, since I don't play 5E." so nope.


The fact that it uses the name of a prominent Forgotten Realms character obviously means they intend fans of the Realms to buy it. If you don't know the Realms, you don't know who Xanathar is... It's not like they couldn't have come up with any other name that sounded cool.

Therefore, the logical conclusion is that the people here, complaining about the name, are part of the intended audience.


Xanathar's Guide to Everything...

Explore a wealth of fantastic new rules options for both players and Dungeon Masters in this supplement for the world’s greatest roleplaying game.

Assembled here for the first time is new information on adventurers of every stripe. In addition, you’ll find and valuable advice for those of nefarious intent who must deal with such meddling do-gooders, including the Xanathar’s personal thoughts on how to dispatch anyone foolish enough to interfere with his business dealings. Alongside observations on “heroes” themselves, the beholder fills the pages of this tome with his personal thoughts on tricks, traps, and even treasures and how they can be put to villainous use.

Complete rules for more than twenty new subclasses for fifth edition Dungeons & Dragons, including the cavalier, the inquisitive, the horizon walker, and many more.

Dozens of new feats and spells, and a system to give your character a unique, randomized backstory.

A variety of systems and tools that provide Dungeon Masters new ways to personalize their home games, while also expanding the ways players can engage in organized play and shared world campaigns.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but evil is in its heart!

The Xanathar…
Waterdeep’s most infamous crime lord, and a beholder to boot…
You’d be shocked to discover just how much he knows about you…
Yes, you… adventurers.

Thats it. Thats the gist of it. Nothing is stated to provide any Realmslore other than its association with the current addition of rules, at least on the surface. Not sure who this else this tome is aimed at than current 5e players?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

I also never said once said people don't have a right to voice concerns, all I saod was that it's just pointless.


No, you just went out of your way to mischaracterize, dismiss, and belittle people's complaints.


I didnt belittle or mischaracterize anyone's complaints. I stated that this trend has been going on for almost a decade. I also pointed out that complaining about WotC products has been a trend that's continued for just as long. But sure, I dismissd the complaints because I see them do little good.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

But I'd love to discuss the actual book



Maybe you should have started with that, then, instead of insulting people.



What, and miss the complain train? But it looks like so much fun.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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farinal
Learned Scribe

Turkey
212 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  09:27:29  Show Profile Send farinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really want to see some new traps. I always like trap ideas. And most importantly I hope they will have the fixed beastmaster Ranger in this book.

"Show some respect!" the draegloth thundered. "You adress High Priestess Quenthel Baenre, Mistress of Arach-Tinilith, Mistress of the Academy, Mistress of Tier Breche, First Sister of House Baenre of Menzoberranzan... you insolent dog!"
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  09:33:30  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by farinal

I really want to see some new traps. I always like trap ideas. And most importantly I hope they will have the fixed beastmaster Ranger in this book.



I hope so. Maybe the Ranger will get some spells to help in that regard. Traps would be pretty cool too.

Theres a lot of mechanics going into it. The above passage suggests 20 subclasses. Most of which I'm going to assume has been issued in previous Unearthed Arcana installments. For example we just got another viewing of the Cavalier (Fighter) and Celestial (dying light Warlock pact) this month to go over along with a Druid abd Paladin one too. Im pretty curious to see which ones they're finally adding and how it'll look compared to their previous version.

Dozens of Feats and spell suggests that maybe their feedback on weapon-based feats were a success. And I hope they get the summon spells down right if they add some. As for randomized back stories, this could be pretty fun and make for really off the wall characters.

It also mentions systems and tool and 2 things that jump out at me are their Massive Battle rules getting some polish and how to spend more down time. Everything else looks at least intrigung

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 07 Jun 2017 09:35:05
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
741 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  15:22:34  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

The above passage suggests 20 subclasses. Most of which I'm going to assume has been issued in previous Unearthed Arcana installments. For example we just got another viewing of the Cavalier (Fighter) and Celestial (dying light Warlock pact) this month to go over along with a Druid abd Paladin one too. Im pretty curious to see which ones they're finally adding and how it'll look compared to their previous version.

I'm pretty sure they've confirmed that all the classes included have been seen before in Unearthed Arcana - nothing will be a complete surprise.

This seems like an essential buy for 5e DMs and players, but not so much for non-5e FR fans. Like Volo's, my bet is the name "Xanathar" is used purely as a marketing tool - and an odd one, at that. It's a little off-putting, but oh well. I guess they chose to use Volo's name for the last one and someone in marketing decided they should keep doing it, but with different FR-peeps. But, at least they've said up front that it's not a lorebook, so it's not like they're trying to trick anyone into buying it.

Maybe the "X's Guide To..." format should be seen as kind of a homage? I agree it's in slightly poor taste considering how different the original Volo's Guides were, but they're not trying to fool anyone (they give out the contents of these books before they even go to market) so I'm not really offended.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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sleyvas
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USA
5640 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  16:22:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

To point, on this particular thread, my complaint was to one thing. "The Xanathar's Guide to Everything". If its not filled with Waterdhavian underworld information relating to Xanathar or even undermountain, just please use another name for the title. As someone else said, if its a new class options lorebook.... Unearthed Arcana ... Forgotten Folio... Eldritch Options Exposed... some other made up name's guide to everything. Just as people get fed up with people re-releasing old TV shows just to use the name to get people to watch something, the same can go with print products. Now, if this comes out and it does have a lot to do with Xanathar, I'll eat my words. I also wouldn't say I'm pissed, but I would call it nauseatingly annoyed.... it makes me go "what, these people can't think of anything better than this? Are they that unoriginal?".





This is my stance, as well.

As for the product itself, based on the description, it is not something I have any reason to comment on. A book of supplemental rules for playing 5E characters is something that simply doesn't apply to me, since I don't play 5E. So I've no commentary, positive or negative, to offer on the content of the book.

As Sleyvas said, though, my one complaint is that they have used a Realms-specific title to refer to something purely core; if the content is not Realms-specific, the title should not imply that it is.

I'm not a fan of Greyhawk (I mildly dislike the setting, in fact), but I'd have the same complaint if it was Mordenkainen's Guide to Everything.

To borrow an analogy I used a while ago, if you make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with regular, store-bought supplies, sell it as a regular PBJ. Don't tell me it's gourmet when there is nothing special about it.

We have now spent more time discussing why we object the name of this product than we spent objecting to it. Thanks?



Also, just to be clear.... I'm buying it when it comes out. I'm interested in 5e rules supplements. I want to see them happen. I just think the name should have more thought and be more relevant to the product.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5640 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  16:31:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

The above passage suggests 20 subclasses. Most of which I'm going to assume has been issued in previous Unearthed Arcana installments. For example we just got another viewing of the Cavalier (Fighter) and Celestial (dying light Warlock pact) this month to go over along with a Druid abd Paladin one too. Im pretty curious to see which ones they're finally adding and how it'll look compared to their previous version.

I'm pretty sure they've confirmed that all the classes included have been seen before in Unearthed Arcana - nothing will be a complete surprise.

This seems like an essential buy for 5e DMs and players, but not so much for non-5e FR fans. Like Volo's, my bet is the name "Xanathar" is used purely as a marketing tool - and an odd one, at that. It's a little off-putting, but oh well. I guess they chose to use Volo's name for the last one and someone in marketing decided they should keep doing it, but with different FR-peeps. But, at least they've said up front that it's not a lorebook, so it's not like they're trying to trick anyone into buying it.

Maybe the "X's Guide To..." format should be seen as kind of a homage? I agree it's in slightly poor taste considering how different the original Volo's Guides were, but they're not trying to fool anyone (they give out the contents of these books before they even go to market) so I'm not really offended.



Yeah, but not to beat a dead horse.... Volo was always seen as a dude from all over... I'm a bit more accepting of his name's use. I'd be more accepting even Elminster or some of the chosen or Jarlaxle or someone else whose known for something other than sitting in one spot. Again, if they make it actually relevant to Xanathar and or skullport / undermountain, I'll eat my words.

For a comparison, above was mentioned Mordenkainen's Magical something.... I'm more accepting of that because Mordenkainen is known for "being all about magic". Xanathar just doesn't scream "class options" to me. Again... I'm buying it... I'm not going to tell people not to buy it based on the name... but I am looking at the authors and going "Seriously? Making this unimaginative title, the book better be good." If it is great.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Faraer
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3295 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  01:49:16  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have Wizards people discussed this 'Realms titles, non-Realms content' strategy anywhere?
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Diffan
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USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  02:22:21  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

Have Wizards people discussed this 'Realms titles, non-Realms content' strategy anywhere?



It probably came up when the designers made the decision to make the Forgotten Realms the base-setting for 5th Edition. Thus the reason why there is no such thing as "Core". Or, to look at it another way, all core content (PHB, MM, DMG, etc) IS Realms content.

Think about it, the Player's Handbook is practically a guide on building characters for the Forgotten Realms. Every Race description except for the Elf and Half-Elf is a passage from a Forgotten Realms novel. Each racial sub-group has distinctions between Clans and uses Realms-based terms like Gold Dwarf, Sun Elf. Then there's the deities, of which each cleric Domain has several FR deities to associate their domains with.

Then there's the Adventures. Each one, from Horde of the Dragon Queen to the Storm Kings Thunder are all set in the Forgotten Realms, except for maybe Curse of Strhad (which I haven't read). Each hard-back supplement supports the notion that if you're playing "Core" D&D then you're playing in the Forgotten Realms.

Unless they put out a book or supplement that specifically details a certain setting (like some of the PDFs that supported a Magic: the Gathering setting) you can safely assume the base-world IS the Forgotten Realms.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
741 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  08:40:21  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Then there's the Adventures. Each one, from Horde of the Dragon Queen to the Storm Kings Thunder are all set in the Forgotten Realms, except for maybe Curse of Strhad (which I haven't read). Each hard-back supplement supports the notion that if you're playing "Core" D&D then you're playing in the Forgotten Realms.

It's my understanding that CoS starts near Daggerford and then whisks you away to Barovia in Ravenloft, though I haven't yet read or played the adventure (I start it as a player tomorrow). I kind of like that - one of the few references to the Realms in Ravenloft material were to the mists appearing in that very same region.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  15:01:30  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Then there's the Adventures. Each one, from Horde of the Dragon Queen to the Storm Kings Thunder are all set in the Forgotten Realms, except for maybe Curse of Strhad (which I haven't read). Each hard-back supplement supports the notion that if you're playing "Core" D&D then you're playing in the Forgotten Realms.

It's my understanding that CoS starts near Daggerford and then whisks you away to Barovia in Ravenloft, though I haven't yet read or played the adventure (I start it as a player tomorrow). I kind of like that - one of the few references to the Realms in Ravenloft material were to the mists appearing in that very same region.



I haven't read the Adventure. I do have the Curse of Strhad Introductory Adventure called Death House but that's already after the PCs arrive in Barovia. It looks like a really fun adventure overall (both Death House and CoS) that I need to try. I'm glad that the Adventure also pay homage to the area of the Forgotten Realms that was already touched by the "Dark Powers" of the Realm of Dread. If I'm not mistaken that's where Jandar Sunstar was taken from...

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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moonbeast
Learned Scribe

USA
286 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  03:55:11  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
But I'd love to discuss the actual book



I find that the EnWorld D&D crowd…. (and even the uncouth rabble at Reddit) have more productive conversations regarding 5E D&D material, mechanics, rules, product discussions etc.

I only visit Candlekeep for the one good thing it provides…. Realms-specific lore and info. But as far as gaming discussions? Info for people who actually stay current with the game? It's pretty much anathema in Candlekeep. As noted above, the many veterans of Candlekeep admit that they don't even buy or care to play current D&D products any more. Not only do they not play or buy the (current) game products, they spend considerable effort criticizing them (months before the products are even published).

I hop around and lurk various D&D-oriented websites, and Candlekeep is just one of many. This place certainly has a lot of masters of lore. But the problem with grognards and canonmongers is the inherent pessimism and negativity they harbor. That much is true in any subject (including the most die-hard Star Trek fans, some even hinted death threats at producers when the producers strayed away from the "original vision" of Rodenberry).

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  04:19:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't say it's anathema to us as much as it is simply not what we're here for. We do have some good rules people, here, but the majority of us are here for the lore... And Realmslore predates D&D in general, and much of the lore we like predates the current rule set.

I don't buy 5E rule books, this is true. It's not that I have an issue with 5E; I'm neutral towards it (if slightly favorable, because of the mostly positive reviews). I don't do 5E simply because I've embraced Pathfinder.

But I am still buying WotC products. If it has Realmslore in it, I'm there. I have twice built a large library of TSR/WotC products, as well -- few can say that.

And in this particular discussion, the only complaining about the book has been about the use of an FR character to sell non-FR material. No one has condemned the content of the book -- only the shadiness of slapping a name on something to imply it's something it isn't.

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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1808 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  07:42:17  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

But the problem with grognards and canonmongers is the inherent pessimism and negativity they harbor. That much is true in any subject (including the most die-hard Star Trek fans, some even hinted death threats at producers when the producers strayed away from the "original vision" of Rodenberry).


If the later developers had not changed the universe, the original fans would be neither pessimistic nor negative.

Some fans of the 4e Realms are logically disinterested in 5e because it offers little/none of what made 4e attractive to those fans.

Some fans of the 3e Realms hopped off the praise wagon when the Spellplague took us into an alternative post-apocalyptic Realms.

The further you go back, the more there is to complain about, because... as you've observed... WotC has changed the Realms.

Gene Roddenberry's fans love his universe. The further Star Trek diverges from the original vision, the more fans will be upset. No, I don't condone death threats, but I do sympathize with the anger and frustration of being powerless to stop the destruction of a place you like more than most parts of real life, *because* the same is true of Ed's fans... we love *his* Realms, and while we might like some additions (I admire the work of many FR authors, and I even kinda dig 4e's Underchasm) we logically dislike others (like destroying Halruaa+Luiren+Lantan+Nimbral and gutting the pantheon).

Respectfully (I mean that; I'm not being sarcastic) the devs created this situation, and the answer to the problem of loudly dissatisfied fans is to stop effing up. The line between positive and negative changes to the Realms is not fine; it's very easy to see.

Passion is consistent with fandom.
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  13:02:38  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
But I'd love to discuss the actual book



I find that the EnWorld D&D crowd…. (and even the uncouth rabble at Reddit) have more productive conversations regarding 5E D&D material, mechanics, rules, product discussions etc.

I only visit Candlekeep for the one good thing it provides…. Realms-specific lore and info. But as far as gaming discussions? Info for people who actually stay current with the game? It's pretty much anathema in Candlekeep. As noted above, the many veterans of Candlekeep admit that they don't even buy or care to play current D&D products any more. Not only do they not play or buy the (current) game products, they spend considerable effort criticizing them (months before the products are even published).

I hop around and lurk various D&D-oriented websites, and Candlekeep is just one of many. This place certainly has a lot of masters of lore. But the problem with grognards and canonmongers is the inherent pessimism and negativity they harbor. That much is true in any subject (including the most die-hard Star Trek fans, some even hinted death threats at producers when the producers strayed away from the "original vision" of Rodenberry).



I get that. I'm also apart of multiple RPG-boards too. However this thread was started by farinal to discuss the book, which then delved into a crap show about the name instead of the actual content of the book, because the name is apparently REALLY important to purveyors of Realms information, despite the fact that the books -plain as day- explains exactly what it's about.


4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  13:22:04  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh



Some fans of the 4e Realms are logically disinterested in 5e because it offers little/none of what made 4e attractive to those fans.


I can't speak for any other 4e fans other than myself but I see more 4th Edition mechanics and spirit in 5e than I see from any other edition. The designers of the mechanics did a pretty good job of giving us 4e-lite without letting people on to it. Just goes to show how important interior design, tables, and rustic appearing mechanics go to push a "feel" when a significant portion of the game is relatively "new age".


quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

Gene Roddenberry's fans love his universe. The further Star Trek diverges from the original vision, the more fans will be upset. No, I don't condone death threats, but I do sympathize with the anger and frustration of being powerless to stop the destruction of a place you like more than most parts of real life, *because* the same is true of Ed's fans... we love *his* Realms, and while we might like some additions (I admire the work of many FR authors, and I even kinda dig 4e's Underchasm) we logically dislike others (like destroying Halruaa+Luiren+Lantan+Nimbral and gutting the pantheon).

Respectfully (I mean that; I'm not being sarcastic) the devs created this situation, and the answer to the problem of loudly dissatisfied fans is to stop effing up. The line between positive and negative changes to the Realms is not fine; it's very easy to see.

Passion is consistent with fandom.



The thing is, I could understand the mentality if the previous stuff was totally inaccessible. If you couldn't get the old books or the old setting info or the old adventures. If it was just gone. I could see being upset that you were forced to adopt the new mechanics, the new setting, the new lore, etc. BUT fortunately you can. There's nothing stopping anyone from running the old Grey Box. No one stopping you reading the old Realm novels or the old adventures. And it's not like they're all that difficult to get your hands on either with eBay, Amazon, half-price books, Drivethru RPG all allow you to pretty much get what you want, if not in physical form but digital too. And it doesn't stop there with the rise of the OSR there's new RPGs being made that are tailored to play in a similar style to the older version of D&D if you can't find those older versions.

Which makes discussions like this, simply about a name, sort of silly. The description easily details why Xanathar's name is on the book and yes, it's pretty much to narrate the new mechanics, with maybe a few tid-bits of stuff there and there. Yes it's a ploy or a gimmick. Yes it's designed to bridge why these rules are in a Forgotten Realms setting. None of that is shady or done to somehow fool people into thinking this is a tome specifically and only designed for the Realms...about the Realms.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  14:48:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
But I'd love to discuss the actual book



I find that the EnWorld D&D crowd…. (and even the uncouth rabble at Reddit) have more productive conversations regarding 5E D&D material, mechanics, rules, product discussions etc.

I only visit Candlekeep for the one good thing it provides…. Realms-specific lore and info. But as far as gaming discussions? Info for people who actually stay current with the game? It's pretty much anathema in Candlekeep. As noted above, the many veterans of Candlekeep admit that they don't even buy or care to play current D&D products any more. Not only do they not play or buy the (current) game products, they spend considerable effort criticizing them (months before the products are even published).

I hop around and lurk various D&D-oriented websites, and Candlekeep is just one of many. This place certainly has a lot of masters of lore. But the problem with grognards and canonmongers is the inherent pessimism and negativity they harbor. That much is true in any subject (including the most die-hard Star Trek fans, some even hinted death threats at producers when the producers strayed away from the "original vision" of Rodenberry).



I get that. I'm also apart of multiple RPG-boards too. However this thread was started by farinal to discuss the book, which then delved into a crap show about the name instead of the actual content of the book, because the name is apparently REALLY important to purveyors of Realms information, despite the fact that the books -plain as day- explains exactly what it's about.





Oddly, though, it didn't become a crap show until someone came in and said people disliking the use of a Realms title for a non-Realms specific book were a bunch of selfish whiners. Before that happened, a couple people said their piece and then were done.

Funny how things get ugly when people are attacked for their opinions.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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