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DrGerm
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
 Posted - 30 May 2017 : 15:08:20
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As I understand it, the world was once Abeir-Toril, then there was the first sundering and Abeir and Toril split by Ao.
My question is, after the second sundering, is it now Abeir-Toril again? Or, are Abeir and Toril still two separate planets?
Thanks!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2017 : 17:34:27
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The whole thing of Abeir and Toril being two worlds is a retcon introduced with the 4E version of the Realms.
Ed Greenwood didn't name the planet, Jeff Grubb did. He dubbed it Toril, and then Abeir- was added to the front to put it at the top of the list of entries in the original boxed set. The Abeir- part was generally ignored, though, and the world was just called Toril.
When 4E came about, the whole Sundering thing was introduced, and there was a partial merging of worlds -- though they were still separate planets. Bits and pieces of the two swapped placed with each other.
And then we had the 5E Sundering, which was reverting things back to how they had been before -- meaning resetting the maps to prior editions.
Going by the most recent lore, Abeir and Toril have been two worlds since Ao first separated them. There was a little mixing and matching that went on, but that's been reversed.
Also, Abeir is slightly out of phase with Toril, meaning that it's not possible to travel betwixt them without portals. Spelljamming from one to the other is not doable. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2017 : 03:12:09
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Didn't the early 2E Al-Qadim (Zakhara) stuff sometimes refer to Al-Toril?
Wooly downplays things a little.
Prior to 4E, "Abeir-Toril" was just the fancy full name of Toril, but "Abeir" was basically ignored by anyone who wasn't a pedantic scholar or gnomish cartographer.
From 4E onwards, Abeir and Toril are two separate (and separated) worlds which were originally one Abeir-Toril. Toril is still the Realms. Abeir is isolated in some special extraplanar place. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 31 May 2017 03:19:36 |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 03:35:27
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All the meta-gaming aside, technically it should just be 'Toril' now, since 'Abeir' still exists... as far as we know.
Didn't Abeir-Toril mean something? Like 'Cradle of Life', or was that Faerūn? I always get it mixed up.
EDIT:
If they overlap (occupying the same space but slightly 'out of sync' with one another - as they originally described it), Spelljamming would not be necessary. Now - after just commenting in the Mezro thread - I have to wonder if this 'other dimension' (that Mezro was hiding in) was really Abeir, and they just don't want to say it (because of all the lingering, anti-4e feelings still about).
Now I am starting to think of Abeir as more of a transitive plane, than a true world - sort of what I picture the Mittlemarch (the Border-Ethereal) to be. One more 'reflection' of the Prime Material. So instead of each (D&D setting) world having one of these 'side planes' as I recently theorized (for storing 'unused bits' of world), maybe its just one vast plane, sort of like how the Feywild and Shadowfell are - a reflection of the real world that sits next to it, just out of sync with it. Of course, then it becomes redundant with those other two I just mentioned, but at least it makes the whole concept of a 'world-piece storage area' more palatable/useful, by making it just a single plane all overgods/worlds (settings) can take pieces from (many worlds, ONE 'box of toys'). This also completely merges it with the 4e non-setting concept of 'Nerath' as well.
Hmmmmm... and since my idea of that 'First World' was just one near-infinite plane (and the Maztica material has stuff about the True World that could very well be Abeir). Perhaps Toril ISN'T really 'the world' at all. Neither is Oerth, or Krynn. Nor Mystara, Threnody, Aebrynis, etc... even Golarion. Maybe Abeir is actually the REAL world they are trying to put back together, and all the D&D settings are those clumps of puzzle pieces various overgods are working on, before trying to fit them back into the main work. Because of the fans we are, and how Abeir got introduced to us, we've only been looking at it from that perspective - as an 'adjunct' of Toril/FR, but if we step back and look at the 'big picture', it could actually be the other way around.
Abeir is like Yggdrasil...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jun 2017 03:55:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 05:29:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, Abeir is slightly out of phase with Toril, meaning that it's not possible to travel betwixt them without portals. Spelljamming from one to the other is not doable.
Hmm, imagine if a spelljamming ship could phase between planes...
Phasejammer!
IIRC, pirates of gith (spacefaring cousins to githyanki and githzerai) can take elven ships into the astral plane. It's something to do with the ship being alive.
There was also an article in Dragon called "Voidjammers" that had ships sailing around on the astral plane.
And in Finder's Bane, an illithid nautiloid (minus its original illithid owners) was taken thru a gate in the Anauroch, and into the Outlands.
So in short, it's not a native functionality of spelljamming, but it is possible for 'jammers to function in the planes. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 06:21:08
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Yes, Gith captains could astral shift their entire vessel and crew. They require one of their special (psionic?) helms, they do not strictly require a living (elven) ship.
Although supplementary Spelljammer material seemed deliberately vague about whether such travel could only access the Astral or could access other planes/places. And we do not know if an analogue of Realmspace (or Wildspace) surrounds Abeir - we do not even know if this isolated world exists within a crystal sphere or is otherwise adjacent to the Phlogiston.
Planescape lore is equally unhelpful. We only know that Abeir's Primordials are (nominally) in charge of Abeir - as far as Ao allows, lol - so normal mechanisms of belief-based planar travel do not function.
Spelljammer and Planescape are 2E inventions. Abeir (as a world distinct from Abeir-Toril) is a 4E invention. And Realmslore from 4E onwards has thus far refused to offer real answers to this question. |
[/Ayrik] |
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DrGerm
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 16:44:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Didn't Abeir-Toril mean something? Like 'Cradle of Life', or was that Faerūn? I always get it mixed up.
From the FR Wiki, that's what it says. And, it references the 1987 box set (which I don't have to check myself)
I do know that in the Roll for Initiative podcast from a few years ago with Tim Kask that I just listened to, he says something about choosing the "Abeir" part so that the name would show up at the top of alphabetical lists ;) And that Toril was taken from his home campaign.
Thanks for the discussion, you gave me some cool ideas :) |
Edited by - DrGerm on 03 Jun 2017 16:49:05 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 17:33:07
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Yes, Jeff Grubb added the 'Abeir' part (the name of his own homebrew world) in front of Toril so it would come first. Thanks for taking the time to look that up.
So what does Faerūn mean? Was it 'the One Land'? Something like that, right?
Anyhow, the more I think of Abeir as a side-plane, rather than an actual world, the more I like it. Almost like a Ravenloft, except instead of 'Dark Powers' pulling the strings, its Overgods. Hmmmmm... maybe the 'Dark Powers' are a specific group of Overgods? maybe they are hiding certain puzzle-pieces from the others? So many ways to spin this!
Thus, 'Nerath' becomes the 'Domains of Dread' for the Abeir plane, just as 'Ravenloft' is for the Shadowfell, and 'Faerie' is for the Feywild. Could Abeir actually be the plane of mirrors? Its the only other major transitive plane I can think of that has some old canon attached.
Three transitive planes, each with collections of 'pieces' gathered from other worlds. Maybe something can be done along an alignment axis? 'Good', Neutral, and 'Evil'? Not quite a good fit. 'Law & 'chaos' would be even worse. Anyway, I was thinking in terms of different groups of gods ('Dark Powers') all trying to recreate their own version of the 'First World' (because each of them would remember it from their own viewpoint, which could be very different than the others). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jun 2017 17:34:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 17:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes, Jeff Grubb added the 'Abeir' part (the name of his own homebrew world) in front of Toril so it would come first. Thanks for taking the time to look that up.
So what does Faerūn mean? Was it 'the One Land'? Something like that, right?
Anyhow, the more I think of Abeir as a side-plane, rather than an actual world, the more I like it. Almost like a Ravenloft, except instead of 'Dark Powers' pulling the strings, its Overgods. Hmmmmm... maybe the 'Dark Powers' are a specific group of Overgods? maybe they are hiding certain puzzle-pieces from the others? So many ways to spin this!
Thus, 'Nerath' becomes the 'Domains of Dread' for the Abeir plane, just as 'Ravenloft' is for the Shadowfell, and 'Faerie' is for the Feywild. Could Abeir actually be the plane of mirrors? Its the only other major transitive plane I can think of that has some old canon attached.
Three transitive planes, each with collections of 'pieces' gathered from other worlds. Maybe something can be done along an alignment axis? 'Good', Neutral, and 'Evil'? Not quite a good fit. 'Law & 'chaos' would be even worse. Anyway, I was thinking in terms of different groups of gods ('Dark Powers') all trying to recreate their own version of the 'First World' (because each of them would remember it from their own viewpoint, which could be very different than the others).
It's an interesting idea... Though I would suggest having it squirrelled away somewhere aside from the Outer Planes. Maybe a demiplane hidden somewhere in the Inner Planes, or maybe a very large pocket dimension.
The reason I shy away from hiding it in the Outer Planes is simply because that's where the gods are, and Abeir didn't have gods.
I've also come to the conclusion that there are either multiple Prime Material Planes, all overlapping each other, or there is only one Prime and it has a lot of layers -- because we've got many examples of places on the Prime where things work one way, but differently in another place -- exactly the same way different planes/layers in the Outer Planes each have their own rules.
So Abeir could be a separate Prime (or layer of the Prime) altogether, one that simply isn't much bigger than a single world and with fewer connections to other planes. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 19:28:45
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| From canon, at least, Abeir is in the same Prime of Toril, as both share Selune as their moon (4e Player's Guide). So, it seems that Abeir is in demiplane within Realmspace. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 19:31:28
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But that doesn't mean it couldn't be more.
In fact, that lends itself to being a plane, rather than a 'planet'. 
"Abeir, the 'Demiplane of Dungeons'". LOL
EDIT:
It also makes more sense in terms of its silver sky, as well. Instead of having some sort of weird, 'protective dome' around it, we can just use the established rules for planes (that each has its own set of rules/physics). Perhaps Abeir is a plane where gods are not allowed (which opens up some other possibilities - is Sigil actually located in that plane as well? There are no 'doors' directly to the Outlands, AFAIK - just portals... the damn thing could really be anywhere)!
As for Selūne, I think that particular 'heavenly body' is MUCH more important to the Cosmology than we've been lead to believe. After all, she 'gave birth' to Mystryl, and the Weave seems to permeate everything (Mystra's fall - along with Azuth's - seems to have had catastrophic effects on the entirety of the D&Dverse). We can use some 'creative license' and say that every world has its 'Selūne' - that the goddess (primordial?) herself has some presence everywhere, and she manifests as the 'light in the darkness' (she 'reveals secrets', hence, Magic). Shar IS 'the darkness', and therefor obfuscates things. Then Mystra/Mystryl should be the secrets themselves. She is "that which lies in Shar's Darkness brought to Light".
Once again, I feel like I am treading very close to something... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jun 2017 19:44:08 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2017 : 19:46:51
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Also, if Abeir-Toril means "Cradle of Life", and we know 'The Weave" = 'Life' according to Ed, and it surrounds all of Toril, that means while Toril literally means 'Life', Abeir must literally mean 'Cradle". Or Creche, or some other word that means 'the birthplace of all things".
Sounds like an appropriate word to describe The First World to me. 
I love when new theories come full-circle. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jun 2017 19:48:03 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 02:46:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
From canon, at least, Abeir is in the same Prime of Toril, as both share Selune as their moon (4e Player's Guide). So, it seems that Abeir is in demiplane within Realmspace.
Considering that we have multiple descriptions of what's in Toril's solar system, and none of them mention anything other than Toril and the Tears being in the vicinity of Selūne, then Abeir literally cannot be in the same Prime -- especially since it coming into phase with Toril would have meant two planets smashing into each other, which would have more of an effect than just a couple of transpositions here and there.
I would say that either Abeir got a copy of Selūne, or it was some sort of projection of the moon. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 03:56:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Considering that we have multiple descriptions of what's in Toril's solar system, and none of them mention anything other than Toril and the Tears being in the vicinity of Selūne, then Abeir literally cannot be in the same Prime -- especially since it coming into phase with Toril would have meant two planets smashing into each other, which would have more of an effect than just a couple of transpositions here and there.
I would say that either Abeir got a copy of Selūne, or it was some sort of projection of the moon.
What the Rich Baker said in the time about Abeir's location was:
quote:
I don't think we've spelled it out precisely, but I believe it to be a "dimensional phase" sort of thing -- you don't really see the one planet in the other planet's sky, but they are closely linked (most likely by portals and easy planar magic) so you can travel between the two more easily than you could go off to, say, the Nine Hells... provided you know how to do it.
So, is more likely within a demiplane in Realmspace's Prime plane, but close enough to have Selune as its moon. (or maybe even Selune is the entrance).
AFAIK, demiplanes aren't either in Astral Sea or Elemental Chaos, but that was 4e stuff. Dunno how those worked in earlier systems. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 04:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkustayCould Abeir actually be the plane of mirrors? Its the only other major transitive plane I can think of that has some old canon attached.
Well, it has a steel sky. :)
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Then Mystra/Mystryl should be the secrets themselves. She is "that which lies in Shar's Darkness brought to Light".
Do you mean "Mystery"? ;)
I got this connection running The Tearing of the Weave. The false priests (Sharrans) at the Temple of Mystra tell you themselves: "Knowledge lies between the stars" and their Starry Gnosis represents a secret knowledge from the stars. The Mystrans have their own stargazing ceremonies, indicating the importance of stars and constellations. If Shar is the darkness and Selūne is the moon and the light, then Mystra is the revealed stars and secrets, that is, the mysteries of magic. Her own holy symbol is a mysterious mist descending from stars, after all.
I see the Mystran faith as a mystery religion, in which ascending to each level sees members initiated into new secret practices and knowledge, though it's less about keeping secrets and more about discovering new things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_mysteries
Or maybe it's all Sharran-inspired heresy. :) |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
Edited by - BadCatMan on 04 Jun 2017 04:49:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 04:38:42
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quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
I see the Mystran faith as a mystery religion, in which ascending to each level sees members initiated into new secret practices and knowledge, though it's less about keeping secrets and more about discovering new things.
You don't know how badly I want to break the rules and make a joking comparison to a particular real-world religion... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 04:44:36
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| That's how I ran the false temple. :D |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 05:15:33
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I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that ONE moon can be the moon for two different planets. 
Even if the planets had some weird, hitherto undiscerned 'binary' relationship (and if one of the two was 'invisible', the orbit of the other would look pretty bizarre from space), they still wouldn't be able to share a moon. One might have a moon that was visible from the other world, but it could not - EVER - orbit both worlds.
Better to just say it's another plane (or in another plane/demiplane), and something unique about Selūne itself makes it visible even in the other plane (so that would be more like a 'ghost image' of Selūne). Of course, if it IS the Plane of Mirrors, well then, thats just the moon's reflection, isn't it?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jun 2017 21:15:23 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 07:13:29
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Selune is both a satellite/moon and a goddess. And we know that no gods or goddesses have power over Abeir - although that doesn't strictly require they have no presence either. Mystra may be quasi-present in Abeir as well, given that it must have a counterpart to Toril's Weave. Remember that the central premise of the 4E Spellplague was Mystra's death causing all magic across all worlds to fail catastrophically - and Abeir seemingly "resonated" so strongly with Toril that big chunks of both worlds were transposed.
I like the idea of planar layers in the Prime. Much like Sigil might be viewed as a layer of the Outlands, yet utterly it seems utterly impossible to access or breach these layers without "permission" of whatever overdeity maintains control over the domain. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 11:10:38
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Clearly the Doctor's understanding of time, space, and the universe is far different from the sorts of physics I was taught, lol. But the same should be said of "physics" within D&D and Realmslore - it follows different rules involving magics and gods (and sometimes overgods) which can be observed as self-evident truths without requiring or admitting any "scientific" explanation.
The fact is that 4E lore describes Abeir's "location" as being somehow out of phase, isolated, and inaccessible from Toril. Ao locked Abeir "away", apparently the Primordials can't get out and the Gods/Goddesses can't get in (since I imagine they wouldv'e tried by now - especially those like Myrkul, Bhaal, Bane, Tyr, Mask, and Cyric known to have bent or exploited or defied Ao's decrees). It seems that any mechanisms which might allow scrying or travel between these worlds would only operate under Ao's conditions and Ao's authority, and Ao does not commune with mortals. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Jun 2017 11:26:08 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 21:35:16
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Well, I would imagine Selūne is/was a primordial (despite three editions that says she was a deity), so that might 'bypass' the restrictions on 'no gods' (although primordials ARE 'gods', I think... its all so confusing...). I may have to swap my definitions 'deity' and 'god' yet again (but 'god' does make a better, non-specific catch-all term for 'greater than mortal'). Its fairly just to say that when the sources say 'god' they usually mean deity (a being capable of receiving energy through worship). Hmph... and having just said that, I think I may have hit-upon the mechanism of why that actually works.
Anyhow, not sure if I prefer spinning Abeir now (as a plane) as the Plane of Mirrors, or as my concept of the 'Mittlemarch' (a term borrowed from Michael Moorcock) - basically the 'world' that exists inside the Border Ethereal (and people who know how can concentrate and 'see into' one from the other, like 'ghosts'; the downside of that being that then they can also notice you as well).
The two timelines thing - now I am back to thinking about Toril's 'lost timeline' again. The 'would have been' had the Elves NOT (retroactively) interfered with the Sundering and created Evermeet. Entire peoples, actions, and cultures were simply 'lost' as if they had never existed. That means we would have had one timeline up to the point when the Elves cast their ritual, and then their would have been a divergent timeline that came into existence when evermeet did. So maybe 'Abeir' is the Plane of Possibilities? The 'might-have-beens'?
And maybe that's how Shar got her 'Dark Chronology' - she was able to steer Toril down a side-path (of 'prophesy') it should not have been on? (and now I am thinking what WotC did with Mystra is what Paizo did with Aroden... and both 'unforeseen disappearances of a god' happened "a century ago" to the setting's current timeline... interesting, no?) Basically, that was the same type of event - the timeline became diverted and now prophesy is 'broken'. Somehow she was able to use her 'shadow powers' to detect one of these side-paths. I believe Szass Tam cast some sort of ritual where he was able to do something similar (I still haven't read that series though... sorry RLB).
So maybe all of these 'side planes' (quantum realities 'out of sync' with our own) - (Border) Ethereal, Shadow(fell), Feywild, Plane of Mirrors, whatever (Planes of possibilities and of dreams?) - are all just 'echoes' of other timelines when they branches?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jun 2017 21:47:15 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2017 : 22:07:02
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Or maybe Abeir is truly unique. The 4E Realmslore asserts that Abeir is a one-of-a-kind special case, resulting from the actions of primordials ands deities and Ao. Not intended in the beginning, not intended for eternity, only a design flaw which needed to be corrected (by amputating an entire world, lol) before undesirable conditions actually worsened.
My point being that if the lore makes so many special efforts to assure us that Abeir is a categorically unique case, why continue to speculate on how Abeir fits into existing models? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 03:11:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, I would imagine Selūne is/was a primordial (despite three editions that says she was a deity), so that might 'bypass' the restrictions on 'no gods' (although primordials ARE 'gods', I think... its all so confusing...). I may have to swap my definitions 'deity' and 'god' yet again (but 'god' does make a better, non-specific catch-all term for 'greater than mortal'). Its fairly just to say that when the sources say 'god' they usually mean deity (a being capable of receiving energy through worship). Hmph... and having just said that, I think I may have hit-upon the mechanism of why that actually works.
My theory is that primordials is just a "race" of gods, much like there are humans, and elves, and whatnot. In 4e, primordials called Toril's gods "estelars". So, I believe that estelars are the race of gods that came from the Astral plane, while primordials are the gods that came from the Elemental planes.
As for Evermeet stuff... AFAIK, Evermeet's Sundering is related to the Abeir-Toril's Sundering and the Second Sundering (too much sunderings).
So, yeah, I guess Abeir is potentially the lost timeline you're talking about. Head-canoned, in fact. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Jun 2017 03:14:10 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 13:59:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that ONE moon can be the moon for two different planets.
Even if the planets had some weird, hitherto undiscerned 'binary' relationship (and if one of the two was 'invisible', the orbit of the other would look pretty bizarre from space), they still wouldn't be able to share a moon. One might have a moon that was visible from the other world, but it could not - EVER - orbit both worlds.
Better to just say it's another plane (or in another plane/demiplane), and something unique about Selūne itself makes it visible even in the other plane (so that would be more like a 'ghost image' of Selūne). Of course, if it IS the Plane of Mirrors, well then, thats just the moon's reflection, isn't it?
Just a concept below:
In the other world, the moon actually looks like the image that Leira projects over the moon in "Toril space".... and in Abeir, the image of the moon looks like there's people living on it, when they don't. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 14:28:43
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This could be solved by borrowing some hypothetical physics consepts from theoretical physics.
The moon could exist in both dimensions, if the Abeir-Toril planet too exist as Abeir and Toril in two dimentions. The Planes we call Abeir and Toril would be two independently experienced 3 dimentional spaces in a multidimensional space.
To explain it a different way: If you view it this way, the Abeir and Toril is still "one planet", and could even share the same Fewyild. Just being separated physically by its two 3d areas we use to perceive. Multidimentional beings would then, in theory, just walk straight from Abeir to Toril when they want (think Lovcraftian Dimentional Shamblers).
Or we could try ignoring what 4E did to FR... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 15:07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Or maybe Abeir is truly unique. The 4E Realmslore asserts that Abeir is a one-of-a-kind special case, resulting from the actions of primordials ands deities and Ao. Not intended in the beginning, not intended for eternity, only a design flaw which needed to be corrected (by amputating an entire world, lol) before undesirable conditions actually worsened.
My point being that if the lore makes so many special efforts to assure us that Abeir is a categorically unique case, why continue to speculate on how Abeir fits into existing models?
Personally I think I'm going this path that you state. Abeir is just weird. It has the same sun and moon because somehow the two are "in a state of two phases" as well. What does that mean metaphysically? I'm not really sure. What did it mean during the time between the spellplague and the sundering? Well, we do know that while Abeir had no outer planar contact previously, it seems that somehow the abyss going into the elemental chaos gave Abeir access to the abyss, as there were demon lords there (seen from the last 2 Farideh books).
A good question to ask if we want to use Abeir is what access did it having during the spellplague fallout/before 2nd sundering... that now it no longer has. Personally, I think it would be fun if all of a sudden Abeir now is just another crystal sphere (a small one... with just Abeir, a moon, and a small sun). Maybe the whole splitting thing was Ao's way of "seeding" a new crystal sphere, and during the second sundering it essentially stole a portion of Toril's "magic energy".... enough to form its own crystal sphere shell finally. Maybe there were some deities that transferred to Abeir after the spellplague, and maybe some of those deities were able to get themselves "transplanted" into the surrounding territories with worshippers. Thus, maybe Abeir has a fledgling pantheon of gods there now (maybe not all of whom even know of one another), and slowly the sleeping primordials are awakening and in a century maybe the war between gods and weakened primordials will come to a head again (for now though, you could just use the two "sniffing" around one another).
In the meantime, maybe in the lands that transferred, there are points which touch both worlds, such that there are natural portals between the two (possibly all one-way, such that if someone transfers to Abeir on one, they must transfer back via finding another that returns to Toril). These portals, would of course be unstable, only open on a periodic basis, maybe requiring some key, etc...
In my view, this makes Abeir usable... which after all is the point in my book. It makes it different than Toril as well. The one big thing I'd do for Abeir is enforce a ruling that clerics don't exist, and instead use the DM's Guild product Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class
http://www.dmsguild.com/product/192760/Priestess-Ancient-World-Divine-Class?filters=45469_0_0_0_0_0_0_0
This forces the use of idols and the building of places of worship and the idea of fervent sacrifice. Thus, there's a "physical" relationship to the deity to kind of equate to the idea that the divine magic in the world is still "in its infancy".
I would however allow druids, and thus the worship of nature in its various aspects becomes an easier road than traditional priests/clerics. However, perhaps druids in Abeir have more stringent alignment requirements.... such as something like the old true neutral requirement and worrying about maintaining balance. Also, perhaps some druids worship deities, and others worship primordials, and perhaps some worship "pantheons" of both, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 17:15:56
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In fact, access to Abeir still exists after the Second Sundering. Ed wrote an article about it in Dragon 427, that some individuals created paths and that stuff.
By reading that article, it seems that Abeir now has a Weave, as Mystra want to prevent the usage of "worldfire", as it can destroy the Weave in both, Abeir and Toril. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 05 Jun 2017 17:19:01 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2017 : 18:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
In fact, access to Abeir still exists after the Second Sundering. Ed wrote an article about it in Dragon 427, that some individuals created paths and that stuff.
By reading that article, it seems that Abeir now has a Weave, as Mystra want to prevent the usage of "worldfire", as it can destroy the Weave in both, Abeir and Toril.
Thank you for that reminder. In that article, Talaskos Murthrond, was mentioned as a Zulkir who is involved with worldfire. I had asked Ed what he was Zulkir of, and the hooded one came back that she believe it was Transmutation.... hmmm, might be interesting to use this guy in my United Tharchs of Toril.
From Dragon 427
Talaskos Murthrond is a handsome, purring voiced former Zulkir of Thay who long ago foresaw Szass Tams rise, faked his own demise, and departed his homeland for a skulking existence spent hiding in remote places of Faerūn amid magical mists.7
7. Although his habit of conjuring magical mists (sometimes including various gaseous or amorphous creatures that will fight at his command) has led some individuals to mistakenly believe Murthrond was
related to the mysterious Mistmaster of the northwestern High Forest (in the Sword Coast North), Elminster doesnt believe the two have ever met, let alone collaborated on anything or learned from each other. Murthrond has become a recluse who prefers to watch, withdraw, and wait patiently for the best moment to strikevery different from most authoritarian zulkirs. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2018 : 04:30:11
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Master Rupert,
It was my understanding that there was one deity on Abeir: Asgorath. The account, supposedly, was that the primordial Erek-Hus cleaved Asgorath in half, resulting in Tiamat and Bahamut, who then rose and killed Erek-Hus. Though, when the Book of the World was discovered, it seemingly indicated that Asgorath was Tiamat and Bahamut, the renegade. The belief by the Candlekeep staff was that it was inconclusive regarding the counter-theories. Anyhow, that was just something that popped up into my head as I was reading the rest of the stuff.
As to Acolyte DrGerm's point: I agree heartily with Master Zeromaru X's reference of Dragon #427, and The Great Sage's acknowledgment of Abeir still being separate, in light of it being accessible.
By the way, I love this site!
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes, Jeff Grubb added the 'Abeir' part (the name of his own homebrew world) in front of Toril so it would come first. Thanks for taking the time to look that up.
So what does Faerūn mean? Was it 'the One Land'? Something like that, right?
Anyhow, the more I think of Abeir as a side-plane, rather than an actual world, the more I like it. Almost like a Ravenloft, except instead of 'Dark Powers' pulling the strings, its Overgods. Hmmmmm... maybe the 'Dark Powers' are a specific group of Overgods? maybe they are hiding certain puzzle-pieces from the others? So many ways to spin this!
Thus, 'Nerath' becomes the 'Domains of Dread' for the Abeir plane, just as 'Ravenloft' is for the Shadowfell, and 'Faerie' is for the Feywild. Could Abeir actually be the plane of mirrors? Its the only other major transitive plane I can think of that has some old canon attached.
Three transitive planes, each with collections of 'pieces' gathered from other worlds. Maybe something can be done along an alignment axis? 'Good', Neutral, and 'Evil'? Not quite a good fit. 'Law & 'chaos' would be even worse. Anyway, I was thinking in terms of different groups of gods ('Dark Powers') all trying to recreate their own version of the 'First World' (because each of them would remember it from their own viewpoint, which could be very different than the others).
It's an interesting idea... Though I would suggest having it squirrelled away somewhere aside from the Outer Planes. Maybe a demiplane hidden somewhere in the Inner Planes, or maybe a very large pocket dimension.
The reason I shy away from hiding it in the Outer Planes is simply because that's where the gods are, and Abeir didn't have gods.
I've also come to the conclusion that there are either multiple Prime Material Planes, all overlapping each other, or there is only one Prime and it has a lot of layers -- because we've got many examples of places on the Prime where things work one way, but differently in another place -- exactly the same way different planes/layers in the Outer Planes each have their own rules.
So Abeir could be a separate Prime (or layer of the Prime) altogether, one that simply isn't much bigger than a single world and with fewer connections to other planes.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Is it Abeir-Toril or just Toril?
