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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
279 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2017 :  21:38:39  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
There has been mentioned sometimes the Language the arcane spellcasters use, is a pidgin based on Draconic. Is there some References in D&D somewhere or FR, on what a Divine spellcaser does, exept getting spells from their deity? Do they use an "Language"?

xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2017 :  23:32:36  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's a neat concept, but I'm not aware of any official references.

This is just my opinion, but I think I'd designate an "old" version of a common racial or cultural language for each culture's priests -- maybe dwarven priests use "old dwarvish" (Shanataran for shield dwarves, Bhaeryn for gold dwarves), human priests use Jhaamdathan, etc. This gives it a flavor similar to Catholic priests using Latin.

I think there's some lore value in non-priest PCs knowing a few words and phrases in an old tongue, from listening to "sermons" etc, which can then give them clues here and there about ancient passwords and activation words they find during adventures. Of course, it might be a bit more work for the DM but hopefully the payoff in player engagement is worth it.

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 27 May 2017 23:33:39
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2017 :  03:44:44  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are a few spells like (un)holy word which I assume are snippets of a divine (or supernal, celestial, infernal, abyssal, etc) language. The mere utterance of a single word is a demanding effort for a divine spellcaster: so powerful that it can destroy armies.

But then again, faith is everything to a priest. It may have little to do with what you say but much to do with how you say it. Deities know their Faithful, they can see the thoughts and hearts (and dirty secrets) of their priests. Most deities speak numerous tongues, many are basically telepathic, and they can also cast things like comprehend languages or ESP at will.
Compare a righteous zealot who strides forth brandishing his god like a weapon to smite undead abominations with evangelical fervour - vs - "okay, I'm rolling a d20 now to Turn the zombie pack".

Druids have their own secret tongue, and it has no written form (no spellbooks, no scrolls, etc) but it is spoken in all their ceremonies, rituals, and spellcasting.

Selune might hear prayers in the were-tongues of lycanthropes or the mathematical scribbles of navigators. The Seldarine might answer prayers in any elven tongue, except perhaps those of drow. Oghma might bestow small favours upon those who address him in exotic, scholarly tongues. Tempus might respond to meaningless, gutteral howls of rage. Mask (or Cyric) might prefer prayers delivered in a Thieves' Cant.

I expect that the "proper" language of a faith will not necessarily be some dead old language but it will be the one in which all the religious canon/scriptures are written. The Red Book Of War, sacred to Tempus, is written in a particularly archaic, stilted form of Thorass. But priests of Tempus are found all over the Realms, few of them would speak any ancient Thorass or any modern language derived from it.

About Catholic priests ... the Christian Church spoke a Latin back in its formative days: the center of the world (Rome), the seat of Kings and Emperors and other (Latin-speaking) political instruments, etc. The Classical Latin written in early Bibles was preceded by Ancient Greek. Along with Aramaic and Hebrew. Any educated and ordained Catholic priest would know Ecclesiastical Latin today. But surely the prayers of those not speaking Latin would also be answered? Especially since the vast majority of laymen (past, present, and probably future) do not speak Latin and in fact exclusively study scriptures translated into their own languages.

... And (just to round real-world references out a little), compare vs Islam. Allah will not hear your prayers and will answer no prayers unless they are offered in Arabic. Only in Arabic, the perfect Arabic of the Quran. Non-Arabic translations of Islam are generally tolerated these days, but they are technically blasphemies which (futilely) defy Allah's will.
An interesting discussion about this here.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 28 May 2017 04:01:08
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2017 :  14:56:58  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
THO said this about playing a cleric in Ed's roleplaying heavy home campaign:

if you were a cleric, (I’m stepping into character here, not confusing player and character) Ed roleplayed “key moments” in temple life with you (getting personal instructions or missions from superiors, the major daily, monthly, and festival rituals, and how to pray to the god). If you prayed eloquently enough, AND had behaved fittingly for a servant of the deity, the god implanted spells in your mind, either while you were sleeping or when you were praying or in vigil before an altar. This really meant Ed handed you little typed slips with three paragraphs on them. The first was casting time, duration, area of effect, and so on, including any trigger or incantation words. The second was a description of the spell. The third was what using that spell meant to your faith, the deity’s expectations, your alignment, and so on. When you cast the spell, you handed back the slip. When you were trained to the next level, you had to perform tasks for the church, and were shown exactly how to cast certain new spells (Ed handed you more slips). The more you memorized, the more you knew what to ask for, and precisely how the spell would work. If you’d been “bad” (according to the god, not alignment or the church), you might get lesser spells than you asked for, or the right spell but with a minimum duration, damage, or effect, or even no spell at all, but a mental reprimand or an order to perform a task.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 28 May 2017 14:57:56
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
279 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2017 :  16:31:34  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Druids have an issue; their language should be druidic, yes. But they write scrolls, and use the scrolls of others.
The holy languages might be the planar languages, I thought of that too.
I think Advanced D&D 2E had the rule a divine spellcaster could learn a new spell from a scroll, pray for it, and use it personally, as a wizard. But without the deity learning it; for the deity to learn it, the deity had to learn it same way a wizard learns a spell. So the cleric needs to get it there somehow (teaching an angel, sending up a scroll, etc). (if I remember correctly).
By that rule, praying for a spell do not mean the deity learn it, whatever that mean.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2017 :  01:01:00  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm fairly sure that AD&D 2E druids were magically "illiterate", no druidic scrolls, no ability to read clerical scrolls. Although some of the "2.5E" Player's Option material suggested rules for druids "translating" (researching) clerical scrolls to invent/reinvent/learn new spells to add to their list. Clerics can also "research" spells through their own rituals and meditations and studies: I'd expect they'd need access to vast libraries of religious texts, I'd expect any "new" spells they devise would be added to the body of their church's religious lore for other clerics to consult. I'd even expect "nonstandard" spells to each be a deeply personal and religious experience (involving visions, communing, tests of faith, and various forms of enlightenment). But all the "standard" spells presented within each "sphere" of clerical magic had to come from somewhere!

And I'm sure that any number of modules or adventures could've been inconsistent in this regard, and any number of articles from Dungeon or Dragon magazines could've expanded on the (simple) 2E "core" druid/cleric rules. Druids were always a bit of an oddball class, copied half-verbatim from their AD&D 1E forerunners (who were themselves an oddball class).

And I would be surprised if D&D 3E/3.5E didn't offer multiple splatbooks filled with complex rules about druids (and druid scrolls).

I recall one campaign where druids recorded their "scrolls" in natural patterns: the whorls in a living tree, the arrangement of their stone circles, even (if they were awesomely high level) in the movements of weather or the manifestations of elemental interactions. Not sure if this was "core" or "variant" or "homebrew", I never found druids particularly interesting.

I like the notion of planar languages. I'd always viewed the "alignment tongues" (present in 1E, abandoned in 2E onwards) as being debased versions of languages spoken on Outer Planes. Think of how many words an Eskimo Inuit has to describe snow and ice, or how many words a Persian Arab has to describe sand and dunes - things (once) prominent in their daily lives - and compare vs an Outer Plane where alignment is the very building block of the cosmos and the very stuff from which the natives and their world is formed. They must perceive and understand all manner of subtle nuances unknown to mere mortals: the loftiest words we use (things like "good" and "evil", "ethics", "justice" and "vengeance", "freedom" and "slavery", "honour", "atrocity", etc) are probably coarse and childlike oversimplifications to the rarified understandings of aligned Outer Planar folk.

A problem with using the planar languages of the Great Wheel is that deities of the Realms do not properly reside within neat Great Wheel designations: for the most part their alignment is not a fundamental component of their identity/interests/powers/portfolio, it is only assigned as a "best fit" within (1E-inspired) planar mechanics. The "realms" and "domains" of Faerunian deities are not spaced evenly along the spokes of the Great Wheel, they are scattered somewhat haphazardly (and arbitrarily) across many planes. Fortunately, the Realms can access all sorts of planeslore across many editions.

You do present an interesting question:
Does the deity grant the cleric knowledge to cast a spell, or does the deity grant the cleric power to cast a spell?

1E did not offer any answer to this. 2E Spelljammer lore allowed that all clerics (with good standing in their faith, etc) could still cast all their 1st-/2nd-level spells without any involvement from their deity (though they might believe otherwise) - although they could only cast higher level spells when connected to a source of divine power (whether it be their specific deity or whatever local deity would implicitly sponsor the cleric or portfolio). 2E Tome of Magic specified that 6th-/7th-level and Quest spells required direct interaction the cleric's deity. Other 2E sources specified that 10th-level wizard spells required direct interaction with Mystra (in post-Netheril eras, anyhow).

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 29 May 2017 01:23:17
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2017 :  16:29:27  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I usually keep it fairly simple, celestial for good and neutral deities, infernal for more evil deities and primordial for the older primal gods.

All of the messages of the gods would have been translated to scripts of Faerunian dialects, probably written in several centuries old Thorass (normal alphabet), Shou (Iokharic draconic or dead Roushoum symbols), Mulhorandi (Celestial script for Mulan, Abyssal script for Thayans), Seldruin (Hamarfae or Espruar), Sylvan (Espruar if at all written) or Dwarven (Dethek) alphabets.

My campaign sketches

Druidic Groves

Creature Feature: Giant Spiders
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see
Learned Scribe

235 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2017 :  07:07:35  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

You do present an interesting question:
Does the deity grant the cleric knowledge to cast a spell, or does the deity grant the cleric power to cast a spell?

1E did not offer any answer to this.

Actually, it did.

First edition DMG, p.38 --
quote:
Lesser clerics, then, draw only upon their education, training, and experience to gain spells, just as higher clerics do when they renew their first and second level spells. In order to gain third, fourth, and fifth level spells, however, higher clerics must reach intermediaries of their respective deities in order to have these powers bestowed upon them from the plane of their deity. When clerics become very great, they must petition their deity personally in order to receive the powerful words which enable the casting of sixth and seventh level cleric spells. It is obvious, therefore, that clerics wishing to use third or higher level spells must be in good standing.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2017 :  09:56:31  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lol, those High Gygaxian 1E rules look unchanged in 2E (Spelljammmer, ToM, etc). "They must petition their deity personally in order to receive the powerful words which enable the casting..." suggests that the deity grants specific knowledge. "Clerics ... must be in good standing" suggests that the deity is also the conduit to divine power: where lack of "good standing" can (at the deity's whim) limit or deny access to divine power.

So I'm inclined to think that deities have "learned" these spells. With a few obvious exceptions (Mystra automatically, intuitively, and intimately understands all magics; Azuth automatically knows every arcane spell ever researched or cast in the Realms, etc). Though I'm sure deities (through their avatars or proxies) have a much easier time learning new spells than mortal spellcasters do.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 30 May 2017 09:57:40
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe

USA
522 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2017 :  09:58:53  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

I think it's a neat concept, but I'm not aware of any official references.

This is just my opinion, but I think I'd designate an "old" version of a common racial or cultural language for each culture's priests -- maybe dwarven priests use "old dwarvish" (Shanataran for shield dwarves, Bhaeryn for gold dwarves), human priests use Jhaamdathan, etc. This gives it a flavor similar to Catholic priests using Latin.




I absolutely agree with this as well.

An Elven high priest reciting the holiest of spells bestowed by Corellon would be….. speaking in a language that is pleasing to Corellon. Maybe some ancient Tal'quessir dialect. But it makes zero sense for the Elven high priest to be chanting spells and sacred ritual prayers in some form of Draconic….. unless Corellon somehow fancies himself a dragon?
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see
Learned Scribe

235 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2017 :  00:38:43  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

lol, those High Gygaxian 1E rules look unchanged in 2E (Spelljammmer, ToM, etc).

Yeah, that there was just a single paragraph of many saying what was then repeated more succinctly in 1e Deities & Demigods and then in the 2e sources.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2017 :  17:38:58  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Celestial for good deities and Infernal or Abyssal for evil deities.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2017 :  21:44:15  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

There are a few spells like (un)holy word which I assume are snippets of a divine (or supernal, celestial, infernal, abyssal, etc) language.


Good point, I like the planar languages for that.




quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Deities know their Faithful, they can see the thoughts and hearts (and dirty secrets) of their priests.


Exactly, which is why this following bit is silly. (Yeah, I know, them's fightin words, but we're talking about D&D here and RW sensitivities have no place.) If true, it's Allah being obstinate rather than unable to understand prayers in other languages. D&D deities may make similar requirements of their worshipers but their comprehension is not limited by it. Reciting prayers aloud is already ceremonial since thought precedes the words.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Allah will not hear your prayers and will answer no prayers unless they are offered in Arabic. Only in Arabic, the perfect Arabic of the Quran. Non-Arabic translations of Islam are generally tolerated these days, but they are technically blasphemies which (futilely) defy Allah's will.


I'm not "dissing" Islam. I'm dissing the ceremonial nature of religions in general -- which is broader than Candlekeep cares to address, but religion is religion regardless of which Prime world we're on. Praying out loud was typical in my Christian upbringing as well, and even as a kid I knew it was for appearances rather than a vital part of faith.




quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I expect that the "proper" language of a faith will not necessarily be some dead old language but it will be the one in which all the religious canon/scriptures are written.


Yep, this is what I was aiming for, but you've said it better. It will likely be the eldest/holiest appropriate language in the estimation of the faith's leaders.




quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

But surely the prayers of those not speaking Latin would also be answered? Especially since the vast majority of laymen (past, present, and probably future) do not speak Latin and in fact exclusively study scriptures translated into their own languages.


Exactly. I was talking only about the ceremonies of the faith. Everyone thinks and thus prays in their own language, or even more fundamentally everyone thinks in concepts/emotions/images, which have no language at all. Language choice is only relevant when something is vocalized.

Spellcasting in front of other people, imo, is a ceremony by nature. We may have differing opinions about that, and the Islam counter-example might confirm the point for religions with a similar language requirement. I'm just saying the vocal component of a spell invocation can be whispered or screamed with equal efficacy -- except spells like "shout." The only reason to speak the words in a way that's comfortable for your party members to hear is for the formality/ceremony of it. A dwarven priest, confronting a giant centipede alone, might whisper or bellow his spells while swinging his hammer, but if there's a bunch of other dwarves listening it's probably going to be a more grandiose effort. And that's where the comparison to latin becomes relevant in my mind. The local dialect of dwarvish is probably perfectly acceptable... but doing things for appearance suggests using an elder dwarvish tongue, with a full-bodied voice, etc, for the prestige of being seen and heard channeling divine power.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2017 :  13:24:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
regarding the idea of scrolls and reading them and trying to attribute a language to that... don't... its magic. That's why bards can read bard spells on cleric and druid scrolls (or at least I think that was true... they may have put some differentiators to separate arcane and divine scrolls.... either way, clerics read druid scrolls and vice versa), and wizards can read bard spells if its also a wizard spell, and warlocks can read wizard spells if its also a warlock spell, etc...

That of course brings us back to druidic being a spoken language for their magic. When they read a spell scroll, they say the words in druidic. Bards would sing or say poetry for their spells, but probably one bard's version of the spell may follow a different musical lyric than another. A warlock would probably speak in some kind of planar language common to his patron (i.e. some version of elemental if his patron is primordial or a genie, some fiendish language if they're demons or devils, the fey language if they're from the Feywild, etc..). For wizards and sorcerers, its well laid out that its draconic as a base, but probably with some power words pulled from other languages (their spellcasting seems the most "constructed"). A cleric however would say the spell in whatever language is appropriate to that god and/or that priest in my book. In fact, now that we mention this, this could be an "interesting" aspect of having Deneir and Milil as one of the gods of magic.... in some ways the language/music "reconversion" to the weave may be something that he aids and/or benefits from.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 01 Jun 2017 13:26:37
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2017 :  06:00:30  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I expect that all Power Word spells and all invocations (ie: spells which invoke the names of powerful entities during casting) would be spoken identically. Just as all Symbol or Glyph spells (and even Wizard Marks) would be written identically. For these sorts of spells the sound and shape of the casting defines the exact sound and shape (and effect) of the magic.

But the "arcane" language used by wizards apparently can vary. 1E-era Illusionists used Ruathlek for magical casting and writing, 2E-era Illusionists retained this (even though they were now technically a specialized subset of wizards). 2E-era Southern Magic was described as having spoken and written forms incompatible with non-Southern Realms counterparts. Thay's "Red Magic" likely also used nonstandard/secret words and scripts. It was implied that elves had their own spellcasting forms which couldn't readily be understood by non-elves, although this wasn't explicitly defined in the game rules (until High Magic was explained, although that was something else entirely). The drow, too, had their own magical methods.

1E and 2E (and "2.5E") rules emphasized that each spellcaster had to learn his spells in a uniquely personal way. He would write each of his spell formula in a unique and personal way (which incidentally took up an entirely random number of pages in his spellbook, usually different from whatever notation he copied it from). He would pronounce the verbal components differently. He would perform the somatic components differently. 2E PHBR4: The Complete Wizard's Handbook and ("2.5E") Player's Option: Spells & Magic described rules for such differences in great detail, even specifying special skills and proficiencies useful for identifying (or disguising) magical work through elements of a wizard's (or his instructor's) personal quirks, style, and technique.

3E and 3.5E rules streamlined spellcasting. It simplified and generalized many of the base assumptions. (Although, curiously enough, it allowed for the Shadovar to possess their own "secret" words and scripts when spellcasting, incompatible even with non-Shadovar shadow mages.)

It is from 3E-era Realmslore that arcane magic is said to all derive from a single (Draconic-inspired) source. I can't argue with the rules, lol, and as always the "new canon trumps old canon".

But I prefer allowing illusionists the secrecy and deception they need for their craft. I prefer having different "traditions" of magic in my Realmslore - draconic is fine for many, Netherese or elemental or fiendish or celestial or feyish (or whatever) seems a better thematic fit for others. And I'm sure there must be mages in the Realms who instead learned their magic from exotic sources (like Krynn or Oerth or Wildspace or Sigil, from the Gith races, from half-incoherent Cthulhu followers, or

All that being said, I would also prefer "multilingual" divine spellcasting in the Realms. Especially since clerical spells almost invariably take the form of prayers, and it seems like a lost opportunity to require every cleric and every temple of every god in the Realms to offer their prayers in one language. Some of the most pronounced religions on our own world are definitively monotheistic - they worship one god alone or at least one god preeminent above all others - yet prayers are offered in numerous languages.

[/Ayrik]
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