Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Running the Realms
 Daggerford Coat of Arms
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

pukunui
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2017 :  03:07:33  Show Profile Send pukunui a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hi folks,

I'm trying to establish what Daggerford's coat of arms looks like. The only image I've been able to find is a b/w line drawing from the old 2e box, The North. Specifically this: http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y391/pukunui81/Capture_zps22knmfac.jpg.


Does anyone know if there's a color image anywhere? If not, does anyone know what the colors are supposed to be?

Thanks in advance!

Regards,
Jonathan

Edited by - pukunui on 25 May 2017 03:09:41

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4790 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2017 :  09:56:37  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That image isn't loading.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

pukunui
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2017 :  10:25:44  Show Profile Send pukunui a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

That image isn't loading.

-- George Krashos

Really? It works for me. Is there any way to post the picture here instead of linking to it?
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29903 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2017 :  15:15:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you can see the image (I can't see it, either), load it in Chrome, right-click on it, and select "Search Google for image"

That does a Google search for that specific image. I've generally had some good luck finding larger/better copies of images with that one.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13452 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2017 :  17:09:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doesn't work for me either - Photobucket sucks. I had to stop using it because it became so slow and unwieldy (you have to click through like five menus just to upload a single pc now). Unfortunately they bought up all their competitors and shut them down, so there are no good alternatives anymore.

Update:
Finally got it to load and thats a TERRIBLE picture - you can't even see whats going on the bottom of the device.

And that trick won't work for that pic, Wooly - its a scene with soldiers and they have the Daggerford device on their shirts (although you can't see any of them fully, and what I take to be 'water' is at different angles in each ).

EDIT: This might be a good question to pose to Eric Boyd.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 May 2017 17:28:51
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3294 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2017 :  17:31:05  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you can get hold of him

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13452 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2017 :  17:54:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did a quick mock-up of what I think its supposed to be, but since my comp has this weird problem when saving files in GIMP (takes a 1/2 hour), and I have to step out right now, I can't post it until i get back.

Stay Tuned...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

pukunui
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2017 :  22:50:24  Show Profile Send pukunui a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does this link work? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAo0qYaXoAMGivl.jpg

I tweeted the pic to Ed to see if he knows anything. I did try googling it but got nothing. It's not been posted online before. If you're wondering, it's on page 8 of the Daggerford booklet in AD&D 2e box set, "The North: Guide to the Savage Frontier". (The one with a giant roasting a woman in a furkini on the cover.)

The only other image I could find of Daggerford's coat of arms is this one (http://www.gamebanshee.com/images/sobipro/entries/935/935_img.jpg) but I can't find it without the text in front, and I don't know if it's official or just a fan-made thing.

Edited by - pukunui on 25 May 2017 22:52:30
Go to Top of Page

BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
194 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2017 :  13:09:47  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Darkness over Daggerford is an unofficial mod for Neverwinter Nights, so that image isn't canon or licensed.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Bureaucrat of the Forgotten Realms Wiki
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13452 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2017 :  17:11:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's the one I just threw together yesterday - (seems to have the same basic idea as the DOD one, though).

Daggerford coat-of-Arms*


*GAH!* I think TinyPic may be worse than Photobucket now. Why do companies have to ruin EVERYTHING? I had to change the link to PB - UGH!


EDIT:
I like the DOD one a lot - I may just do my own version of that (because I DO plan to do something with Daggerford for the DM's Guild.) As I said, the one I just posted above was a really quick 'mock-up'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2017 17:23:18
Go to Top of Page

pukunui
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2017 :  22:33:02  Show Profile Send pukunui a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Darkness over Daggerford is an unofficial mod for Neverwinter Nights, so that image isn't canon or licensed.

Bummer. At least it looks fairly legit. The only other coat of arms I could find online relating to Daggerford was a yellow and blue shield with a lion on it. Weird, eh?

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Here's the one I just threw together yesterday - (seems to have the same basic idea as the DOD one, though).

Daggerford coat-of-Arms
Nice. I'm getting ready to run Scourge of the Sword Coast, and this is a minor detail I thought was worth looking into.
Go to Top of Page

rweston
Seeker

Canada
17 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  04:19:30  Show Profile  Visit rweston's Homepage Send rweston a Private Message  Reply with Quote
According to Volos guide to the sword coast the coa for daggerford is a bloody dagger on a field of blue.
#128578;
Rory
Go to Top of Page

pukunui
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  06:08:31  Show Profile Send pukunui a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rweston

According to Volos guide to the sword coast the coa for daggerford is a bloody dagger on a field of blue.
#128578;
Rory

Cool. That does seem to be in line with everything else I've come across. To bad there's no (color) picture to go with it, right?
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13452 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  19:29:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I guess I can use the other one for the related 'Dukedom of the Shining Vale' (at least, I think it was a dukedom.. I'd have to check Under Illefarn Anew). If Daggerford is trying to reestablish the dukedom, the older heraldry - which hasn't been seen 'in action' for some years - may be making a reappearance of late.

My little way of saying, "both could be correct".

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6196 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2017 :  03:54:48  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Direct link to OP's image here. (Circumventing Photobucket's deliberately ad-/adware-polluted webscripts, also circumventing antivirus/defender software from blocking loading of dirty Photobucket content, lol.)

This question has been asked (and sort of answered) before in this old scroll.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

There is a slight reference to the town's arms... on pg. 2 of the "Daggerford" supplement in The North boxed set:-

"The current Duke of Daggerford, Pwyll Daggerford (LG hm F6 [cavalier]), claims to be a descendant of this brave merchant boy, and the town's arms display a bloody silver dagger on a deep blue field."


Neverwinter Nights: Darkness over Daggerford depicts a different version, a two-coloured background, a silver dagger, and blue water/waves. Wikipedia's pages about such stuff are very detailed, lol, the "exact" heraldric terminology is apparently quite a technically comprehensive topic into itself.

My understanding is that the left and right vertical halves ("(party) per pale" "divisions") represent the colours of two "supporters" (attendants, patrons, houses, families, allies, virtues, ideals, whatever). I'm not sure what the black circle around the "field" represents, but it surely wouldn't be there if it lacked heraldric significance. The silver dagger we know. The blue and white waves clearly represent water, lol, but they are also drawn as a "crested" or "chevron" horizontally triple-striped "variation" or "pattern" which itself likely imports significance. The white/silver portions of the image are called "argent", though the various shades of blue will each have their own "proper" (and poetic-sounding) names. You can use an online image colour picker to identify and name the colours, if such accuracy matters to you, lol.

Even the particular shape and geometry of the shield itself has meaning. Militarized or warlike sorts of shields tended towards practical squared or blockish shapes which could, at times, fit within military crenellations (like a castle's battlements) or be rested flat upon the ground. More sharply triangular or rounded triangular shapes tended to indicate use by mobile (cavalry or naval) troops. Elegantly or ornately rounded shapes (like the "recurve" faintly suggested in this coat of arms) tended to indicate royalty or nobility, more fancy or decorative but less practical on the field. The "rough" curve suggested by straight metalshod lengths in this shield might simply indicate some local smith's lack of skill, time, or material - whether it was made recently or two generations past. And we don't know if every shield carried in Daggerford follows this same style or if this one sample is a refurbished (low-budget?) heirloom from long ago, it could even be a sturdy old dwarven shield repurposed by a perhaps-overly-proud new owner. I note the general low quality of artwork surrounding this shield, lol, the design could be limited more by the skill of the artist than by the smith who fashioned it.

Coats of arms change and evolve over time as politics and power structures change around them. Alliances and houses/families/lineages can emerge or dissolve, the deeds of heroes and champions can become quickly popular or can become slowly forgotten and displaced. The most prominent things tended to occupy the largest and most central positions in heraldric symbolism while the least prominent things tended to shrink into lesser background imagery and diminish until they were discarded.

I've never played this NN:DoD game, and it was apparently a dismal failure, but it's available as a free download at the official site. It might contain some story or background elements which better describe the symbolism behind Daggerford's (now changed?) coat of arms.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Jun 2017 07:44:32
Go to Top of Page

R P Davis
Acolyte

USA
11 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2017 :  13:39:07  Show Profile  Visit R P Davis's Homepage Send R P Davis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AyrikThis question has been asked (and sort of answered) before in this old scroll.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

There is a slight reference to the town's arms... on pg. 2 of the "Daggerford" supplement in The North boxed set:-

"The current Duke of Daggerford, Pwyll Daggerford (LG hm F6 [cavalier]), claims to be a descendant of this brave merchant boy, and the town's arms display a bloody silver dagger on a deep blue field."




There is no reliable way to blazon a "bloody silver dagger." In heraldic terms, the entire dagger would be gules (red) rather than silver. The dagger would be in the center of the field, point down. As such, it violates the rule of tincture, and is poor design. Red on blue is Not Allowed. See below.

quote:
Neverwinter Nights: Darkness over Daggerford depicts a different version, a two-coloured background, a silver dagger, and blue water/waves.


That image is modern graphic design, not heraldry. The shield doesn't have anything to do with it, as the armorial bearings are entirely contained within the circle. (They're poorly designed, by the by, and not at all acceptable, heraldically.)

quote:
Wikipedia's pages about such stuff are very detailed, lol, the "exact" heraldric terminology is apparently quite a technically comprehensive topic into itself.


Luckily I'm quite conversant on the subject. Finally an area of Candlekeep where I can contribute something useful!

quote:
My understanding is that the left and right vertical halves ("(party) per pale" "divisions") represent the colours of two "supporters" (attendants, patrons, houses, families, allies, virtues, ideals, whatever).


Not necessarily. While sometimes true, often the two colors just are.

quote:
I'm not sure what the black circle around the "field" represents, but it surely wouldn't be there if it lacked heraldric significance.


In this case I'm certain its artistic license, put there by a graphic designer in order to get clarity from the image.

If it was heraldic, it'd be called a "bordure sable." But as heraldic bordures are rather thicker than that shown, it's clearly artistic license.

quote:
The silver dagger we know.


Daggers need to be carefully described in blazon, as there is no default posture or coloration, as there is for sword. As shown, it's clearly "A dagger Cendrée in bend, point downwards." The problem with this is that cendrée is a very modern heraldic color; in the heyday of practical heraldry, it didn't exist. See my discussion of colors, below.

If we take it as read that the dagger is meant to be silver, the positioning of the dagger as seen in the two images is problematic, because you can't put silver over silver. In heraldry, white [Argent] is also silver. There is no "gray."

The other problem is that as far as I'm aware, you can't make a silver dagger (or sword, or spear, or whatever) with blood on it. There's no accepted way to use the language of heraldry (blazon) to describe it. It's either "bloody" - which means the whole thing is red - or it's silver. Sometimes the hilts are a different color (usually yellow/gold).

quote:
The blue and white waves clearly represent water, lol, but they are also drawn as a "crested" or "chevron" horizontally triple-striped "variation" or "pattern" which itself likely imports significance.


Conveniently, the wavy blue and white stripes - which could be blazoned "barry wavy argent and azure" - is when seen in base (at the bottom of the shield) simply called a "ford proper."

See Oxford: Argent, an ox gules passing over a ford proper.

https://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/images/m081b.gif

quote:
The white/silver portions of the image are called "argent", though the various shades of blue will each have their own "proper" (and poetic-sounding) names.


Not really, no.

It's important to point out that heraldry exists as a visual identification. You see a red bull walking over a stream, that's Oxford. So it has to have high contrast (like a red dagger on a blue field, or the image from the video game doesn't), for one. For another, the words used in heraldry have to have specific definitions. Gules = red. Azure = blue.

With colors, things didn't get complicated until the latter half of the 19th century. Medieval heraldry was simple. Yellow, white, red, blue, black, green, purple. That's it. No orange, no shades, no different versions of "proper," just those seven colors. (Okay, there are furs, but those aren't germane to the Daggerford bearings, so I'm ignoring them for simplicity.)

quote:
Even the particular shape and geometry of the shield itself has meaning.


First, not in this circumstance. It's just a convenient display for the real armorial bearings, which are entirely contained within the circle.

Second, shield shape in important only to a point, and only in certain circumstances. For the overwhelming majority of time when heraldry was useful - not a mark of social elevation, but useful - the "heater" shield was the default shape because heraldry was how fighting men identified each other on the battlefield. Even today, if you just say "Argent, an ox gules passing over a ford proper" it's going to go on a shape like that in the linked image showing it. The shape of the shield isn't all that important in terms of meaning.

That's not universal, of course. In some European countries, by the 17th century women were displaying armorial bearings on a diamond shape called a "lozenge."

quote:
Coats of arms change and evolve over time as politics and power structures change around them. Alliances and houses/families/lineages can emerge or dissolve, the deeds of heroes and champions can become quickly popular or can become slowly forgotten and displaced. The most prominent things tended to occupy the largest and most central positions in heraldric symbolism while the least prominent things tended to shrink into lesser background imagery and diminish until they were discarded.


That's certainly true, but generally that has to do with smashing different armorial bearings together, "impaling" or "quartering" them. That happens when two armigers - people who carry armorial bearings - marry. It doesn't change what's in either of their individual bearings; it makes an entirely new blazon.

The flag of the American state of Maryland is an excellent example. The black and gold (paly of six Or and Sable, a bend counterchanged) was granted to George Calvert, of whom Lord Baltimore was the heir, and the red and white (quarterly argent and gules, a cross bottony counterchanged) was held by Lord Baltimore's mother, an heiress in her own right. The issue of the union of a Calvert and miss Crossland were then allowed to carry the quartered arms rather than simply Calvert. In effect, Lord Baltimore's armorial bearings became Calvert, and Crossland ceased to exist as separate, heritable arms.

Okay, so where does that leave us?

The Sage's reference cannot be used as-is, because you can't have red on blue. The drawing, presumably from a FR adventure, is canonical but not terribly useful as it's black and white. But it does give us a visual design. The graphic from the video game is quite useful but isn't canonical.

I'd go with a combination. Take the ford from the video game. Take the bloody dagger as described by The Sage, and depict it like the badge on the tabards worn by the guys in the drawing.

Argent, on a ford a dagger Gules in bend point downwards. Seen here: http://r-p-davis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/daggerford.png

That's how I'd do it, anyway.

Cheers,

Bob
www.r-p-davis.com
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6196 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2017 :  14:09:05  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by R P Davis

I'd go with a combination. Take the ford from the video game. Take the bloody dagger as described by The Sage, and depict it like the badge on the tabards worn by the guys in the drawing.

Argent, on a ford a dagger Gules in bend point downwards. Seen here: http://r-p-davis.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/daggerford.png

That's how I'd do it, anyway.


I suspect that how you'd do it (and how you've done it) is better researched and more consistent with the framework of "Realms heraldry" than the Daggerford items already offered by one author and two artists, lol.

Thank you for the expert corrections/clarifications/expansions on my errors. Everything I "know" about heraldry is based on a few minutes reading Wikipedia, haha.

[Edit]
Somewhat off-topic, but I wouldn't personally bother with wearing any heraldric devices. My shield might have a camouflage pattern or bear useful a offensive magic (say a blindingly intense continual light, a symbol of pain, a hypnotic pattern, a cursed reflection, or even a shocking grasp) facing outward. I really wouldn't care much whether the fighting men facing me on the battlefield can identify who I am, I would care a lot more about what they could (or could not) do to hurt me whenever I have to pull out my shield.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Jun 2017 14:29:56
Go to Top of Page

R P Davis
Acolyte

USA
11 Posts

Posted - 05 Jun 2017 :  14:27:24  Show Profile  Visit R P Davis's Homepage Send R P Davis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair, I've been studying heraldry for more than a decade. Like any specialized field, there are tricky bits. It's more than just "Whoa wot a cool picture"!

The Rule of Tincture is one of those. Simply put, metal should not be put on metal, nor color on color. White and yellow are metals, the rest colors. You can see the Rule of Tincture in play in the logos of literally every single corporation of any size. Just browse through https://www.brandsoftheworld.com/search/istock and you'll see the Rule at work.

Fantasy writers, for some reason, just don't remember that when designing pseudo-medievaloid heraldry for their people and places.

Cheers,

Bob
www.r-p-davis.com
Go to Top of Page

Faraer
Great Reader

3294 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  01:59:54  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed posted this to REALMS-L on 6 Apr 2000:
quote:
The important thing to remember is that real-world heraldry was very untidy and inconsistent (still is, in many ways), and coherent rules came along late in the game...so if you consider Realms heraldry to be like 'old' real-world heraldry, with local heralds memorizing everyone's charges but the only 'hard' rule really being no duplication of arms within the same realm, and no use of royal arms by anyone unauthorized, anywhere, you've got it. Those who really want to follow established real-world blazonry are reminded that America ignores most of the European rules anyway, and that in both main systems, corporations are allowed to break almost all the rules if they pay enough :} (just like the Realms! :})....hope this helps.
That is, he knows our-world blazonry rules perfectly well, but they aren't always followed in the Realms.

On the other hand, 'a bloody silver dagger on a blue field' is from Steve Perrin's N5 Under Illefarn, where it's specifically the arms of the duke. If it's Steve's rather than Ed's, it may not be how Ed had it or would have had it.

Edited by - Faraer on 08 Jun 2017 02:13:20
Go to Top of Page

R P Davis
Acolyte

USA
11 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  02:33:10  Show Profile  Visit R P Davis's Homepage Send R P Davis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer

Ed posted this to REALMS-L on 6 Apr 2000:
quote:
The important thing to remember is that real-world heraldry was very untidy and inconsistent (still is, in many ways), and coherent rules came along late in the game...so if you consider Realms heraldry to be like 'old' real-world heraldry, with local heralds memorizing everyone's charges but the only 'hard' rule really being no duplication of arms within the same realm, and no use of royal arms by anyone unauthorized, anywhere, you've got it. Those who really want to follow established real-world blazonry are reminded that America ignores most of the European rules anyway, and that in both main systems, corporations are allowed to break almost all the rules if they pay enough :} (just like the Realms! :})....hope this helps.
That is, he knows our-world blazonry rules perfectly well, but they aren't always followed in the Realms.

On the other hand, 'a bloody silver dagger on a blue field' is from Steve Perrin's N5 Under Illefarn, where it's specifically the arms of the duke. If it's Steve's rather than Ed's, it may not be how Ed had it or would have had it.



That's fair!

The only thing I'll point out is that in my experience and from what I've seen of the earliest blazons, the rule of tincture is uniform even in the earliest examples. The earliest examples I can find are mid to late 13th century, like Glover's Roll:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Glover%27s_Roll_of_Arms

If you have a breeze through that, you'll see what I mean.

All that aside, it's not my creative product, so I'm not going to say "that's wrong." It's wrong by heraldic standards in the Real World [tm]. But that doesn't really mean anything in the Realms. After all, we're talking about a place where folks can conjure fire from nothing.

I would go so far to say that it's a fairly natural rule; contrast is contrast, as proved by corporate logos, where instant clarity in identification is as necessary as it was in the Middle Ages. Exxon/Mobil doesn't have to follow the heraldic rule of tincture, but they do because it makes the most sense.

Cheers,

Bob
www.r-p-davis.com
Go to Top of Page

R P Davis
Acolyte

USA
11 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  02:41:32  Show Profile  Visit R P Davis's Homepage Send R P Davis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AyrikSomewhat off-topic, but I wouldn't personally bother with wearing any heraldric devices. My shield might have a camouflage pattern or bear useful a offensive magic (say a blindingly intense continual light, a symbol of pain, a hypnotic pattern, a cursed reflection, or even a shocking grasp) facing outward. I really wouldn't care much whether the fighting men facing me on the battlefield can identify who I am, I would care a lot more about what they could (or could not) do to hurt me whenever I have to pull out my shield.



You'd think shields would just be utilitarian things, wouldn't you? It doesn't make much sense that they'd be canvases for personal expression.

But they are. From the earliest examples to, hell, even WW2, shields bore art. From the early:

https://68.media.tumblr.com/fb65670c5a3d53fa8c449e5073aed73c/tumblr_inline_nq3j21n0MZ1sfjjkp_1280.jpg

and

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8030/7925622986_f3ea0a1213_o.jpg

To the late:

http://melbourneartnetwork.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Shield_of_Parade_BM_1863_0501_1-1.jpg

If you're playing a Cavalier, or someone with a noble background, it's hella important that intelligent foes know who you are.

Anyway, I love these kinds of discussion.

Cheers,

Bob
www.r-p-davis.com
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6196 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  04:53:37  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Swords often bore ornate crests, hilts, pommels, and inscriptions along the blade. Axes evolved into delightfully functional/artistic weapons. Polearms probably owe half their variety of shape and function to their visual (heraldry-like) function.

I suppose it makes sense for (silvered) daggers in Daggerford to also bear specific decorations with symbolic meanings. Perhaps every able-bodied militia man carries such a dagger, even if only to demonstrate his affiliations or indicate things like name, family, title, rank, or military unit. And if these daggers are common, then magical versions of these daggers may also be found.

Not sure why the original dagger was silver. Always possible for ceremonial or decorative pieces, the ornate sort of thing a minor nobleman might wear (especially after the assassinations in the Duchy). Silver is generally unsuitable for weaponry, and much more expensive than iron or steel, although in the Realms a silver weapon is useful against some kinds of monsters (like lycanthropes, some undeads, some fiends), silver is "pleasing" to druids and elves and fey folk, and it's somewhat "attuned" to Selune in mystical ways.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Jun 2017 05:08:42
Go to Top of Page

pukunui
Seeker

53 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  05:19:35  Show Profile Send pukunui a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Silver is generally unsuitable for weaponry ...
That's why, in D&D, weapons are usually "silvered" - that is, silver is added to the iron or steel weapon in some way - rather than being wholly made of silver.
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000