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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2017 :  14:37:59  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, integrating the core-4e Dawn War history with the other worlds is really quite problematic. I'm unfortunately invested in combining the two because I had a two year core-4e campaign that I'd love to link to my FR via between-world travel, but reconciling the gods of core-4e with FR and Greyhawk is troublesome at best.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5946 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2017 :  22:01:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

If you want to use the core-4e Raven Queen in Abeir-Toril and keep to the lore surrounding her, keep in mind that she ascended during the Dawn War. So that puts her ascending during the Blue Age and Shadow Epoch of Toril, and it's unlikely (but not impossible) that humans were around during that time, considering all that is mentioned is an aquatic race - which may or may not be the same as or releated to Ed's "Rauth", or that may be another species that was around back then.
Except thats not possible - Nerull was alive right up until the end of 3e.

In fact, had she ascended 'during the Dawn War', all of Nerull's history in D&D would have never happened. That makes NO SENSE. Designers should learn to read before they start playing with all the toys.

She could have been The Raven Queen - as I postulated above - before dying and going to Pluton, and she could have been THERE any number of years (although saying from the Dawn War forward is a bit much), but she could NOT have 'ascended' to godhood until recently. Its just not feasible.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'll honestly admit to not knowing much about the raven queen, but perhaps when her name was lost, she also lost a lot of her memory, and consequently a lot of what made her evil.
Yeah, thats pretty-much how I was spinning it above. the loss of the name also allowed her to shed whatever corruption nerull had piled on her.

I still prefer connecting her to the Lady Mage from Netheril - I have to find that name. I recall her death had something to do with the Crown of Horns, and Myrkul is connected to the Crown of Horns (quite literally, last I heard), and Myrkul and Nerull appear to be 'brothers from another mother' or some such (they are almost exactly alike). The way I was thinking about spinning it is that Nerull was involved in Myrkul getting the Crown in the first place, back when Myrkul was still a mortal prince of Murghôm. It may have been a bid on Nerull's part to establish a presence in Realmspace, and Myrkul was meant to be a Chosen, but he went his own way instead. Later, the crown is used in Netheril, and that poor woman becomes attached to it.

I wouldn't connect Kiaransalee and The Raven Queen directly then - I would say that when the spell was cast to erase the memory of Kiaransalee, The Raven Queen siphoned-off Kiarn's rapidly fleeing god-power and became a deity herself, but in so doing the spell affected her as well.



Yeah, could also be something where Kiaransalee's ascension involved taking over one of many aspects of the "original" raven queen. Then Kiaransalee becomes multi-spheric, spins up her own avatars. She keeps that original aspect under her control in "somewhere else that ain't realmspace". Then Kiaransalee's memory gets wiped and that old aspect of the raven queen gets freed, but with her memory wiped too. Lot of ways to skin the cat.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14144 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2017 :  15:04:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But you are still saying The Raven Queen is more ancient than Kiaransalee, which makes no sense (despite canon lore that says it).


The only way any of this works is that The Raven Queen was a mortal in ancient times, quite possible soon after the Dawn War. That would work in regards to her being associated with the Giant Kingdoms and the Citadel of the Raven. You could choose not to use that bit of conjecture, but it still doesn't change the timeframe. Then she goes to Pluton for some umpteenth millennia (which is a bit much, but she did work her way up to being Nerull's consort, which is no easy task - she must be VERY patient LOL), and eventually takes the place over. Now, since we have plenty of lore on Nerull (not in FR, but in D&D), he HAD TO be around during the eras D&D takes place in - he could not had died some 30K+ years before D&D even existed. Sure, we can throw-in some 'time fudgery', but I know how much people hate that stuff around here.

So we have that 'First World' (or just Abeir-Toril, if you prefer, which IS canon), and then we have a Sundering/Shattering, and then the Raven Queen rises to power somewhere. She bides her time and works her way up through the ranks, becoming Nerull's 'right hand' (consort, lieutenant, whatever). She makes a deal with lolth on the side to help her get rid of Nerull and take his power, but Lolth being who she is takes most of the power for herself and becomes a greater Goddess (which takes time for some reason - The Silence of lolth), so at that point (late 2e?) The Raven Queen is 'stuck' in a quasi-divine state, in need of more raw power to complete her transformation. Coincidentally, kiaransalee "received a massive influx of worshipers that elevated her from the rank of demigod to Lesser deity" (that straight from the Wiki) during the time when Lolth went silent.

So lets say The Raven Queen creates/finds a bit of 'ancient, eldritch magic' about "erasing memories" on a mass scale. She takes the ritual and adds some stuff of her own to it (basically tethers herself to the forthcoming magic), and makes sure it winds up in Q'arlynd Melarn's hands (either directly of indirectly). Q'arlynd Melarn does the ritual, causing people to forget about Kiaransalee, and tRQ grabs most of the escaping energy from the dwindling Kiaransalee... but she also loses her own name and past in the process (she may not know her whole story herself at this point). That takes care of everything, and the time table is perfect. Enter 4e and tRQ is a full-fledged God that 'came out of nowhere', and kiaransalee is forgotten. Now in 5e I believe Kiaransalee is back... or is she? Could it just be TRQ using that as an alias to get back at lolth, stealing some of her worshipers from her? FR fans around here may not like this shoe-horning too much, but I think it adds another level of 'cosmic drama' to everything (without inviting Shar to the party for once).

We could squeeze Orcus in there somehow, because of his hatred for Kiaransalee, but that would probably over-complicate things (especially if I add in my own homebrew lore about Orcus actually being a 'stillborn' aspect of Gruumsh). We could just say he is the one who approached The Raven Queen with the idea of erasing Kiaransalee, and that would be his only part in it. I'm sure all these 'outsider' death-gods - who are all trying to build their own religions and power - cut deals like that all the time. Orcus would be in a similar boat as tRQ, stuck in an 'almost divine' state.

And there I go, off on tangent again... apologies...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 May 2017 20:01:17
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 18 May 2017 :  23:16:10  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not sure if it was intentional or not, involving Orcus - but Orcus HATES the Raven Queen too, and desires her portfolio over death. This is the backdrop to the run of published 4e adventures, culminating in Orcus killing her unless the players stop him.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14144 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2017 :  01:30:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmph. Well, I don't like it just because it gives Sleyvas' theory more traction than mine.

Seriously... thats like them practically telling us they're the same person...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 May 2017 17:05:04
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5946 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2017 :  13:30:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I were to link Kiaransalee to the Raven Queen in the past it would have been LOOONNNNNNNGGGG Ago. We have to remember, Kiaransalee was a god on Toril before Lolth was (look in the novel Evermeet, she's there in the beginning), and she was an interloper. So, if around the dawn of time Kiaransalee took over an aspect of the Raven Queen somehow (maybe she used the original "forget about me forever" on the Raven Queen.... same thing she later tried to use on Orcus later (which is canon)). It may have even been that Kiaransalee "was" the Raven Queen, in that whatever aspect she acquired, she actually magically "booted" its consciousness out and inserted her own. This helps fit the lore where the Raven Queen was around long ago, but now she's "new".

Along these lines, with Kiaransalee back, I'd really like to pursue an idea I had a few years back. Basically, in my musings of "the gods were in Abeir", I have 5 gods in particular who are working together in Abeir to restore magic and many of the "dead" gods (btw, Helm, Lathander, and Tyr are also involved with their own work). Those 5 gods are Savras, Leira, Deneir, Velsharoon, and Mask (with occasional help from a 6th, Karsus, and 7th, Finder Wyvernspur, whose song magic aided both Lathander AND Mystra's servants). In that scenario, Mask is helping strictly because he likes the intrigue of it (and he has a "thang" for Leira). I don't know why, but I also like the idea that Velsharoon and Kiaransalee also find each other in the midst of this and become a husband/wife scenario co-ruling necromancy. This becomes even more pleasing to me if she looks like the raven queen, as I can picture Velsharoon and the Raven Queen hand in hand. Perhaps the two ally to work against Orcus and other demon lords who seek to usurp necromancy.

I know some will say "well, why do we need Myrkul, Orcus, Velsharoon, and Kiaransalee" and my answer to that is "because then you can play it that there's a struggle going on for this worship and work those worshippers against each other".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 19 May 2017 14:01:39
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3501 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2017 :  17:10:18  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dont forget that Elaine herself has said that evermeey should not be taken as historical fact. That gives a lot of room for interpretation

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14144 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2017 :  17:18:06  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just can't get onboard with any deities having been in Abeir. Its doesn't just go against canon, it actually goes against the basic premise on which Abeir was created - NO gods.

Now that they ('the powers that be') are back-peddling on so much stuff, they're just making primordials 'a different kind of god' (but basically the same Thing), which to me is just more redundancy. I wanted them to be different - its what I liked about them (and Abeir).

The lines have gotten so blurry they've become pointless, IMHO.

I'm going to have to rethink a lot of stuff. I have always gone with Ed's premise that Magic = "Life", which is exactly the premise behind Athas as well - a world drained of life/magic. It's what made the Phaerimm stuff WORK. It also works within the confines of the 'Nobanion = Aslan' stuff (that magic IS life). Basically, Toril's 'Weave' is super-charged with life (hence - in part - the ability for anything to breed with anything).

Magic dead zones are 'lifeless', just like Athas.

But if thats so, and Abeir 'had no magic', then it should have been just like Athas (and I think large swaths of it were - the whole of the Darksun campaign took place in a region the size of The Raurin). That means the main continent - Laerakond (Ed also gave us another name - i need to find that one) had to have something that gave it 'some life back'. Maybe the dragons themselves? (Ed also has some lore about dragons being the 'key' to magic, sort of how it is in GoT, but I can't really discuss that).

I might be able to put together a new theory - that dragons are like 'magic sponges' - maybe they were created (in their current, terrestrial form) to do just that - 'mop up' the mess of free-floating mana that was left after the First world was Sundered. They can literally be used like 'seeds' to bring life to new worlds (basically, like giant mana-producing power plants). They gather that energy and release it, naturally, causing magic to escape into the magnetosphere (or in magic terms, the web of leylines around a planet). Like I said, just something new I am playing with as of this morning.

EDIT:
And now I am thinking about the scene in Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, when the kraken lay dead on the beach - "The world is a little less brighter with the magic gone".

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 May 2017 17:26:54
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5946 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2017 :  18:19:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I just can't get onboard with any deities having been in Abeir. Its doesn't just go against canon, it actually goes against the basic premise on which Abeir was created - NO gods.

Now that they ('the powers that be') are back-peddling on so much stuff, they're just making primordials 'a different kind of god' (but basically the same Thing), which to me is just more redundancy. I wanted them to be different - its what I liked about them (and Abeir).

The lines have gotten so blurry they've become pointless, IMHO.

I'm going to have to rethink a lot of stuff. I have always gone with Ed's premise that Magic = "Life", which is exactly the premise behind Athas as well - a world drained of life/magic. It's what made the Phaerimm stuff WORK. It also works within the confines of the 'Nobanion = Aslan' stuff (that magic IS life). Basically, Toril's 'Weave' is super-charged with life (hence - in part - the ability for anything to breed with anything).

Magic dead zones are 'lifeless', just like Athas.

But if thats so, and Abeir 'had no magic', then it should have been just like Athas (and I think large swaths of it were - the whole of the Darksun campaign took place in a region the size of The Raurin). That means the main continent - Laerakond (Ed also gave us another name - i need to find that one) had to have something that gave it 'some life back'. Maybe the dragons themselves? (Ed also has some lore about dragons being the 'key' to magic, sort of how it is in GoT, but I can't really discuss that).

I might be able to put together a new theory - that dragons are like 'magic sponges' - maybe they were created (in their current, terrestrial form) to do just that - 'mop up' the mess of free-floating mana that was left after the First world was Sundered. They can literally be used like 'seeds' to bring life to new worlds (basically, like giant mana-producing power plants). They gather that energy and release it, naturally, causing magic to escape into the magnetosphere (or in magic terms, the web of leylines around a planet). Like I said, just something new I am playing with as of this morning.

EDIT:
And now I am thinking about the scene in Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, when the kraken lay dead on the beach - "The world is a little less brighter with the magic gone".




Look at it this way. We can either do things with Abeir OR we can NOT do things with Abeir.

So far, my ideas have revolved around the idea that unbeknownst to Faerun a lot more of Toril went to Abeir (Anchorome, Maztica, Katashaka, portions of Osse, Nimbral, Lantan, Halruaa, Unther, portions of Chessenta and Chondath, many of the people and possibly portions of Mulhorand, portions of Thindol, Samarach, Tashalar, Lapaliiya, and the Mhair Jungle, maybe portions of the dire wood, etc... ).


Along with those regions, the idea of worship transferred over. The deities were for the most part seen to be beneficial by the surrounding territories. Thus, worship may have spread into Abeir itself, but only barely. Then things transfer back, but some of the deities stay because they've become worshipped by the native Abeirans. Similarly, the Abeirans that were here in Toril transfer back and introduce some gods that were here to Abeir.

So, now we've set the stage for a world with Primordials to awaken and a less than coherent group of gods to challenge them. Essentially, look at Sword & Sorcery's world of Skarn from 3e in which there was this deity versus Titan struggle and the Titans were defeated, but had to be simply "chained down" because killing them was hard to figure out. Now picture playing through that era of gods versus Titans rather than it already be a certain win.

Throw in the idea that the "second" Sundering setup these "links" between the two worlds, and thus you can setup some kind of war between worlds kind of like the Magician series of Novels by Raymond E. Feist. Abeir becomes the "low magic" world and Toril is the "high magic" world... but on Abeir the weave is growing stronger. Bring in the idea of harvesting resources between worlds (which for the United Tharchs may even include things like slaves), and you get a lot that you can develop.

Also, throw in some areas of Abeir that never really developed sentient humanoid populations, but rather possessing possibly intelligent animals (not animal humanoids, but actual animals... like Narnia) and you could open up whole sections where Lurue and Nobanion prosper.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3501 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2017 :  18:33:27  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Definitely not do things with abeir. Pretend it doesnt exist, alog with 5e and 4e. But thats probably just me.

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