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 Who did the Netherese descend from?
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  03:39:52  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Poll Question:
The term "Netherese" is derived from the name of Nether the Elder, who we're led to believe grew up around the Narrow Sea. We're told they were a light-skinned, dark-haired people, that their dialect was of the Ulou language family. They were present around the Narrow Sea at least by around -3,869 DR.

Descended from the Talfir or Pre-Talfir?
That they're light-skinned and dark-haired might imply a connection with the Talfir, who were present in the Chionthar Valley at least around the earliest years of Dalereckoning, and likely long before that. My guess is that the Talfir of the Shadowking's era were themselves descended from the human group led by Tethir that settled in the modern Green Fields area around -11,700 DR. Alternatively, the Netherese could be directly descended from the pre-Talfir/Tethir group of humans. It's not a great leap to say that these people could have followed the flow of rivers to the Narrow Sea.

Descended from the Ulutiuns?
The main links here are that the Netherese grew up in the far North, near the arctic region, and that they speak a language of the Ulou family. Although their skin type is quite different, this could have been the result of millenia apart from their forbears. However, the Ulutiuns are said to have come originally from northern Kara-Tur and have broad features, whereas this isn't mentioned for the Netherese.

Descended from the pre-Chondathans?
We know that human tribes existed in the Vilhon Reach at least by the time of the Crown Wars, and it's possible some of these people migrated north. These people were likely fair-skinned at this early stage, similar to the Netherese (they're described as developing olive skin as Shaarans move up into their region much later). My feeling is that the fertile Vilhon would offer little incentive to a mass migration North, but it's possible.

Descended from the Thaeravelians?
The Land of Alabaster Towers was founded around -4,300 DR, and little is known of it save that it was overrun by the Netherese in -3392. We don't know what kind of people lived there, or if they were even definitively human. However, their proximity to the Netherese could indicate they were related. One theory that has been put out here before is that the Thaeravelians were Imaskari, and they may very well have been.

Descended from the Nar?
I find this unlikely, as the Nar are still only tribes by around -2,460 DR. However, their language is also from the Ulou family. I think it more likely that they are another ethnic group related to the Netherese or the Ulutiuns (they're tan and stocky) that were pushed east by the rise of Netheril.

Something else?
My best guess at the moment is that they were descended from the fair-skinned Pre-Talfir group, migrated along rivers to the Narrow Sea, and at that point mixed with Ulutiuns who had come down from the Endless Ice Sea, to become a new ethnic group that would become known as the Netherese with the rise of Nether the Elder.

I'm sure I had a few other theories that aren't cropping up in my head, and I'm sure other people here will have ideas I haven't thought of. Interested to see what people have to say - especially if anyone has any recollection of the work Eric Boyd allegedly did on migration patterns back in the day, which I have no access to! I know Tom Costa has at least seen them (and used them to develop his excellent language article for Dragon Magazine), so especially interested if he pops his head in here too!

As always, interested in any or all thoughts.

Choices:

Talfir or Pre-Talfir/Tethir
Ulutiuns
Pre-Chondathans
Thaeravelians
Nar
Something else

(Anonymous Vote)

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4906 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  04:00:56  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They were always there. They weren't descended from anyone.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  04:08:11  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting - so humanity started there (and in other places), or they came from another world? I had been under the impression from the map in GHotR that most human groups must have migrated out of the "Katashaka" area. Or did the Realms just have humans sprouting individually all over?

Edit: The idea of the Netherese being a separate "precursor" group could work with that. So some of humanity derives from Katashaka, become slaves of the sarrukh/yuan-ti, etcetera; a separate fair skinned group arises in the north as the pre-Netherese, who spread south along rivers and become the pre-Talfir and the pre-Chondathans.
Edit 2: To me, separate precursor groups implies a world or worlds these groups came from, rather than concurrent creationism or evolution (just feels less likely).
Edit 3: That's not necessarily a problem though - I was already kind of working from that presumption, but with the "Tethir" group being the other precursors (they're the first significant human group mentioned in the GHotR outside of that map.

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 16 May 2017 04:27:29
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14134 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  05:01:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally go with they are a Gur/Raumvari branch. One that travelled across the Moonsea North on into the Anauroch basin.

I pegged the Thaeravelites as a Talfiric group. That way I can spin it that the Netherese didn't dabble in 'shadow magic' until they annexed Thaeravel and stole its secrets.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 May 2017 05:04:37
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  05:43:19  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I personally go with they are a Gur/Raumvari branch. One that travelled across the Moonsea North on into the Anauroch basin.

I pegged the Thaeravelites as a Talfiric group. That way I can spin it that the Netherese didn't dabble in 'shadow magic' until they annexed Thaeravel and stole its secrets.


I saw a conversation about them possibly being Gur in an old thread, but according to Races of Faerun the Gur only left the east after the end of (or during) the Raumathar-Narfell Wars. So the Gur wouldn't have gotten to the Netheril area until around the time of Karsus's Folly.

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3496 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  07:25:13  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ive been through the full spectrum of theories mostly thanks to George and Markustay.

There is no evidence beyond similar descriptions and a settlement called Gers, that makes the netherede part of a migration.

Similarly in the netheril boxed set there is nothing that places the netherese in the netheril region before the event that says a number of tribes coalesced into the seven fishing villages. Archaological evidence to the south indicates dofferent people living there.

Its almost as if the netherese appeared out of nowhere or that the netherese existed in the region without leaving any trace of that existence.


So i opt for a different origin.
The citadel of the raven was home to an ancient human civilisation (elevated by their dragon and giant masters). Sometime before the formation of the fishing villages the citadel of the raven fell and the people migrated to become netheril. The fall was possibly caused by a flight of dragons.

So the people of netheril had been in the region for eons but were hidden in the Ride. Before that the giants likely brought them from elsewhere but that is a total unknown. This origin can also be used to link the netherese with the creation of the monument of the ancients (which im working on tying with the spellweavers)

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4906 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  10:09:18  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You forget that The Realms isn't Earth. As dazzlerdal notes, in the Dawn Days there were "civilized" races that did many things. One of the main drivers of civilization for humans were the fact that they were subjugated and bred by superior races - such as dragons. In my Realms the magically-talented Netherese were descendants of humans who had been enslaved and bred by dragons.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 16 May 2017 10:12:07
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4906 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  10:12:10  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You forget that The Realms isn't Earth. In the Dawn Days there were "civilized" races that did many things. One of the main drivers of civilization for humans were the fact that they were subjugated and bred by superior races - such as dragons. In my Realms the magically-talented Netherese were descendants of humans who had been enslaved and bred by dragons.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Misereor
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135 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  10:17:04  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Tangent.
How did the Citadel of the Raven get it's name anyway?
Is is the original ancient name, or a new one made up by newcomers to the region?

Btw, like the Ostorian connection, Dazz :)

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
742 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  10:38:04  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

One of the main drivers of civilization for humans were the fact that they were subjugated and bred by superior races - such as dragons.

Is the "bred by dragons" bit canon? That's interesting, and it implies humans were a lot more widespread during the Dawn Ages than I was thinking.

I'm also not "forgetting" the Realms is Earth - I don't think it's poor form to wonder where humanity in the Realms came from. Plenty of sages have speculated before. I'm just working off the canon data points I have - primitive human tribes in Katashaka, and later references to humans everywhere else. If there's information I'm missing, I'd love to see it. Maybe humans did just start simultaneously all over in the Realms, thanks to the blessings of the gods, I don't know. I find it a question worth asking though.

Personally I find the easiest answer to be that primitive humans migrated to the Realms following the last Ice Age, at least to the Katashaka area - but possibly to others as well in different waves. One of those groups could have been the Netherese. YMMV massively.

As for the Citadel of the Raven idea, that seems as reasonable as anything else. It was made by someone, after all!

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3496 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  11:02:19  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Humans need not have been that widespread. You have a dragon (or other super being) discover a small pocket of humans in an isolated mountain or forest clearing. He takes as many of the humans as he can find to become his slaves.

Some humans survive where they were originally.

Now we have two groups of humans. One in the western heartlands forest, the other in the cold lands (just an example, i think the cold lands dragons actually used goblins at first).

Then the dragon with his enslaved humans is killed by a rival or dies.
Another super being comes along and enslaves some of the humans. Some escape.

Now we have 3 pockets in different corners. Within 1000 years we could have a hundred isolated subgroups of humans which become the racial subgroups after mergings and extinctions etc

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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe

USA
111 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  14:17:50  Show Profile  Send LordXenophon an AOL message Send LordXenophon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Misereor



How did the Citadel of the Raven get it's name anyway?
Is is the original ancient name, or a new one made up by newcomers to the region?





I know it's not the original name. It's the modern name. I don't know whether the original name was ever mentioned.

Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14134 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  14:24:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

One of the main drivers of civilization for humans were the fact that they were subjugated and bred by superior races - such as dragons.

Is the "bred by dragons" bit canon? That's interesting, and it implies humans were a lot more widespread during the Dawn Ages than I was thinking.
"Bred by Dragons" is not entirely accurate. That may have been a small part of what was going on, but from what I read, in most cases it would have been indirectly (you create a civilization for humans - AND Elves - to flourish in, they're going to be making babies).

And yes, its canon, because it was part of that anthology that went with the Rage of Dragons series of novels (never read that series - because I heard all of the events had ZERO lasting impact on The Realms, plus I don't actually care for dragons, but I DID read the anthology, which was chock-full of history). There was an ancient citadel metioned in the first story that could have been the Citadel of the Raven (I thought it was), but from what I understand, in other parts of the series you learn that citadel was elsewhere (which is a shame - it would have made the CotR more interesting, connecting it to the original covert group that created the kingkiller Star). Regardless, it doesn't mean the CotR couldn't have been around then.

FR history is really weird, in that we have that whole series dealing with the ancient dragons, and we also have another series dealing with the ancient giants, and presumably the two were in a state of constant war for at least a millennia... and yet we see NO EVIDENCE of any of that, anywhere. In fact, both series ignore each other, and the other species altogether. Only from the sourcebook Giantcraft (which I never really liked... not a fan of RoF either) do we get a very brief picture of that war. I think they never gave it any detail because there is no easy way to make it work in a timeline (without shoving other stuff around). And for that matter, we have the draconic realm of the Purple Dragon exiting tens of thousands of years later than all the rest, in Cormyr 9or rather, pre-cormyr). They need to retcon the events of that first Cormyr novel further back in the timeline - there should have been a MUCH larger time-gap between the elves taking over the land, and then the humans showing up. It doesn't really make much sense in regards to everything else (like, why the heck would Netheril leave a powerful dragon running it own little draconic kingdom right to the south?) The elves should have taken the land from the Purple Dragon long before the Netherese rose to power.

And for a time, Thaeravel would have served as a 'buffer zone' between the Netherese and the Purple Dragon. So this dragon - who considered humans brutish, uncivilized creatures - had two magically powerful empires directly to its north.... ummm... okay?

Personally, I think we should have had an actual reboot in 5e, and then they could have fixed the entire timeline. They missed a Golden opportunity there, because they could have had an in-setting reason for the reboot (like how ST did it). They could have gone all the way back to the First Sundering, and all the problems in the setting could have been ironed out.

Instead, we got a reboot that wasn't really a reboot, that has so much plot-armor and Mary-Suesim attached to it its almost unpalatable.

So we got the GHotR, which just glosses-over a lot of important stuff (like those dragon empires) simply because its too hard to actually make the lore work properly. And we could have had viable human-migration charts. I had plans to do one of those way back when, but I found RoF kept getting in the way. Its just so much easier to say, "Its Magic!"
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, getting back to the topic (and ending my mini-rant), I am not adverse to connecting the Netherese to the Giants and the Citadel of the Raven. I would love to connect that place to The Raven Queen, but her history doesn't go back anywhere near that far; she's actually a very recent power (which also makes very little sense - "The name of the god is long forgotten" - really, for a power thats only a century old, at best?) HOWEVER, her write-up says she was once a powerful human sorceress who held the title 'The Raven Queen'. Then she died and went to Pluton. Over time she rose to power there, and eventually even overthrew Nerull (this had to have happened right at the tail-end of 3e). Nothing actually states how long she was in pluton for before she made her move - it could have been thousands of years!

So what if she was originally from The Realms, before she died? What if she was the Queen of the Citadel? Eh? Maybe it was through her power that the tyranny of their giant masters was finally overthrown. That could work. All we would need is to tack-on some lore about how she hates giants (which doesn't go against anything we already know about her). Maybe giants AND dragons.

The only 'hole' (maybe) in all of that is that she only 'erased her name from memory' when she took over Nerull's old place, so that would have also been the tail-end of 3e. I suppose if she had been dead for thousands of years (tens of thousands of years?) people would have forgotten her for the most part anyway, and all she did was erase her name in Pluton, and in any truly ancient records (like maybe some books the elves had). It might make for an interesting adventure-path if some ancient, sealed-away tome containing her true name showed up somewhere in The Realms... like the Citadel of the Ravens... and she needed to move to eliminate that. What if the Zhents got ahold of it? It might be a time for heroes!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 May 2017 14:31:01
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3496 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  14:27:20  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well its potentially a remnant of ostoria so its name is from a giant empire that was destroyed near 30000 years ago.

Put a heim or holldt on the end of whatever you want to call it and that should be a good enough name.
This particular region (the moonsea north) was a fire giant region and so presumably was volcanic way back then, so give it a fire themed name perhaps.

However it has likely been called many names over the years. It was a giant hold to guard the border of the kingdom against dragons. Then it was likely a dragon hold. Then it was probably owned by a multitude of monsters before becoming human owned.

For me though i would have it as an ancoent spellweaver outpost from the outcasts of Er'il. They enslaved the humans first. When that grand conjunction they were doing went awry the spellweavers disappeared (but may not be entirely gone - monument of the ancients was designed to do something, i think it was a power battery) and left the humans to look after themselves. Then giants came along and built atop the original node.

FR is all about ruins and secrets atop ruins and secrets.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14134 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  15:15:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
MAN, I hate spellweavers. Just never liked them. I try to avoid connecting them to anything... but thats just me.

If we were to connect the CotR to the Raven Queen (during her time as a mortal), the good part is that we could do that almost anywhere on the timeline, because as you just said, several different groups may have had control of the citadel over the millennia. In fact, considering that that is probably NOT its original name, it might make even more sense moving her closer to the modern age (possibly a Netherese survivor?

Hey! Maybe she's that chick that got killed by the crown (IIRC) - the one who actually discovered a way to get rid of the Phaerimm! She's still bitter about all that. She rises to power and becomes Nerull's consort over the years (which must have been gross, considering he's a skeleton like Myrkul), and then she hears about the return of the Phaerimm in The Realms in 3e, and that's when she decides to make her 'big move' against Nerull. By the time she outs him and consolidates her power in Pluton, the 'threat' of the Phaerimm is already over, so she just erases the memory of her name and starts to build her church in the realms (during the Wailing years, pre-4e).

She was probably wondering how to re-introduce herself into the culture of the Shades - after all, she wouldn't want to step on Shar's toes - but then the Shades fell as well (mostly fell, I think - I haven't kept up with what happened to them). Thus, she is a tragic figure - she's lost her people/empire twice now. She returned just to see them fall again.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
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USA
5940 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  23:28:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Interesting - so humanity started there (and in other places), or they came from another world? I had been under the impression from the map in GHotR that most human groups must have migrated out of the "Katashaka" area. Or did the Realms just have humans sprouting individually all over?

Edit: The idea of the Netherese being a separate "precursor" group could work with that. So some of humanity derives from Katashaka, become slaves of the sarrukh/yuan-ti, etcetera; a separate fair skinned group arises in the north as the pre-Netherese, who spread south along rivers and become the pre-Talfir and the pre-Chondathans.
Edit 2: To me, separate precursor groups implies a world or worlds these groups came from, rather than concurrent creationism or evolution (just feels less likely).
Edit 3: That's not necessarily a problem though - I was already kind of working from that presumption, but with the "Tethir" group being the other precursors (they're the first significant human group mentioned in the GHotR outside of that map.



I think too much is placed on the idea that humans came from Katashaka based off that one map. I think SOME humans did, but for instance, I also think that there were also humans in the hordelands/Zakhara/Kara-Tur region. That being said, I think the human CREATOR RACES came from Katashaka, and the other humans frankly don't know a lot about them. However, I also think these human creator races were not experimenting like the Sarrukh/Batrachi/Aearee and they were merging themselves with animal spirits in a shamanistic way that possibly ended up creating some of the humanoids like tabaxi, wemics, etc... millennia ago. This is why my Katashaka is filled with mammalian humanoids.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5940 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2017 :  23:35:31  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

One of the main drivers of civilization for humans were the fact that they were subjugated and bred by superior races - such as dragons.

Is the "bred by dragons" bit canon? That's interesting, and it implies humans were a lot more widespread during the Dawn Ages than I was thinking.
"Bred by Dragons" is not entirely accurate. That may have been a small part of what was going on, but from what I read, in most cases it would have been indirectly (you create a civilization for humans - AND Elves - to flourish in, they're going to be making babies).

And yes, its canon, because it was part of that anthology that went with the Rage of Dragons series of novels (never read that series - because I heard all of the events had ZERO lasting impact on The Realms, plus I don't actually care for dragons, but I DID read the anthology, which was chock-full of history). There was an ancient citadel metioned in the first story that could have been the Citadel of the Raven (I thought it was), but from what I understand, in other parts of the series you learn that citadel was elsewhere (which is a shame - it would have made the CotR more interesting, connecting it to the original covert group that created the kingkiller Star). Regardless, it doesn't mean the CotR couldn't have been around then.

FR history is really weird, in that we have that whole series dealing with the ancient dragons, and we also have another series dealing with the ancient giants, and presumably the two were in a state of constant war for at least a millennia... and yet we see NO EVIDENCE of any of that, anywhere. In fact, both series ignore each other, and the other species altogether. Only from the sourcebook Giantcraft (which I never really liked... not a fan of RoF either) do we get a very brief picture of that war. I think they never gave it any detail because there is no easy way to make it work in a timeline (without shoving other stuff around). And for that matter, we have the draconic realm of the Purple Dragon exiting tens of thousands of years later than all the rest, in Cormyr 9or rather, pre-cormyr). They need to retcon the events of that first Cormyr novel further back in the timeline - there should have been a MUCH larger time-gap between the elves taking over the land, and then the humans showing up. It doesn't really make much sense in regards to everything else (like, why the heck would Netheril leave a powerful dragon running it own little draconic kingdom right to the south?) The elves should have taken the land from the Purple Dragon long before the Netherese rose to power.

And for a time, Thaeravel would have served as a 'buffer zone' between the Netherese and the Purple Dragon. So this dragon - who considered humans brutish, uncivilized creatures - had two magically powerful empires directly to its north.... ummm... okay?

Personally, I think we should have had an actual reboot in 5e, and then they could have fixed the entire timeline. They missed a Golden opportunity there, because they could have had an in-setting reason for the reboot (like how ST did it). They could have gone all the way back to the First Sundering, and all the problems in the setting could have been ironed out.

Instead, we got a reboot that wasn't really a reboot, that has so much plot-armor and Mary-Suesim attached to it its almost unpalatable.

So we got the GHotR, which just glosses-over a lot of important stuff (like those dragon empires) simply because its too hard to actually make the lore work properly. And we could have had viable human-migration charts. I had plans to do one of those way back when, but I found RoF kept getting in the way. Its just so much easier to say, "Its Magic!"
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now, getting back to the topic (and ending my mini-rant), I am not adverse to connecting the Netherese to the Giants and the Citadel of the Raven. I would love to connect that place to The Raven Queen, but her history doesn't go back anywhere near that far; she's actually a very recent power (which also makes very little sense - "The name of the god is long forgotten" - really, for a power thats only a century old, at best?) HOWEVER, her write-up says she was once a powerful human sorceress who held the title 'The Raven Queen'. Then she died and went to Pluton. Over time she rose to power there, and eventually even overthrew Nerull (this had to have happened right at the tail-end of 3e). Nothing actually states how long she was in pluton for before she made her move - it could have been thousands of years!

So what if she was originally from The Realms, before she died? What if she was the Queen of the Citadel? Eh? Maybe it was through her power that the tyranny of their giant masters was finally overthrown. That could work. All we would need is to tack-on some lore about how she hates giants (which doesn't go against anything we already know about her). Maybe giants AND dragons.

The only 'hole' (maybe) in all of that is that she only 'erased her name from memory' when she took over Nerull's old place, so that would have also been the tail-end of 3e. I suppose if she had been dead for thousands of years (tens of thousands of years?) people would have forgotten her for the most part anyway, and all she did was erase her name in Pluton, and in any truly ancient records (like maybe some books the elves had). It might make for an interesting adventure-path if some ancient, sealed-away tome containing her true name showed up somewhere in The Realms... like the Citadel of the Ravens... and she needed to move to eliminate that. What if the Zhents got ahold of it? It might be a time for heroes!




Secretly, the Raven Queen was tied to Kiaransalee, and when Kiaransalee was erased from history, it let her loose..... just saying, its mighty convenient.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 17 May 2017 :  01:41:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I noticed how when one was 'erased' from memory, the other's name was also erased, and both happened right around the same time. However, the similarities end there. Sure, both are also tied to 'the dead', but the Raven Queen isn't a bad sort, unlike Kiaransalee (unless, somehow her personality also shifted to something closer to how she was before she fell under Nerull's sway).

We could connect it to either stray bits of lore - both work. I just don't think we can get them to both work at the same time (since we KNOW kiaransalee came from Threnody, NOT Toril).

UNLESS... the drow of Abeir referred to their home as 'Threnody'.

Lets say Kiaransalee is/was 'The Raven Queen', and during the last 'Magical Chaos' (the fall of Mystryl/Netheril?) she gets shunted to Abeir. Torillian powers have no access there, but she finds a 'back door' leading her to Nerull. She worships (pays lip service to) Nerull, and is slowly corrupted by him. When she dies she goes to his Realm... only to start plotting against him from the beginning. It was all a very elaborate plan to get herself home.

Then she makes a deal with Lolth for her 'big move' against Nerull, but Lolth steals much of Nerull's former power for herself, and ascends to become a true Greater Goddess (with her own divine Realm, outside the Abyss) - The Silence of Lolth. Kiaransalee must wait a little longer for the right moment. Then someone cast that persnikity spell making 'everyone forget Kiaransalee', but she is still able to linger as a vestige in her original persona - The Raven Queen. The spell also stripped-away all the corruption Nerull had fostered on her. Thus, she starts-out under-powered (and no longer pure evil), and takes her time (the wailing years/lost century) to rebuild her/Nerull's power-base.

Still not a nice person, but not necessarily evil, ether. Just trying to find herself within the new framework of things. If Kiaransalee was also restored as of 5e, that could present a problem (both in and out of game). I'm still dying to connect tRQ to PF's Pharasma.

Can people please pick holes in all that? I just threw it together quickly - aside from the 'fudging'of Threnody, anything else?

And, of course, some part of Nerull might also be a vestige somewhere. Perhaps inside of Acerak?

Of course, thats pretty convoluted, just to connect her to the Citadel - I think I liked connecting it to the Netherese lady-mage better. I still haven't found her name, but I like to see her get some love, and also keep Kiaransalee and tRQ separate. She'd probably also have a thing against Karsus, if thats her, and he might be back in 5e as well (although I doubt it - he died WAY before 1e).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 May 2017 01:50:51
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KanzenAU
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Australia
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Posted - 17 May 2017 :  06:11:25  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What do people think about this as a tale for humanity in the Realms? For those that find the ideas distasteful, a warning upfront that it involves only a couple of migrating groups, and it involves a pretty heavy reliance of sarrukh breeding programs. It also revolves around the "Out of Katashaka" concept.

A Short History of Humanity on Toril
At the end of the Dawn War and Toril's Shadow Epoch came the receding of the ice, the revealing of land, and the Days of Thunder. The Elder Gods powerful enough at this time to seed this world with their creations were the World Serpent, Ramenos, and a tripartite avian deity. These gods created the sarrukh, the batrachi, and the aearee. The Fey, created in the Feywild by the Fey Gods, also soon visited upon this world. In these earliest days a fifth race also appeared - humanity. These primitive humans had come through a gate from another world, and they were not at all prepared for what awaited them on Abeir-Toril.

As the humans explored their new land, which they came to call "Katashaka", some spread northeast and encountered the sarrukh of Mhairshaulk, who entirely controlled the land-bridge to what would later be known as Faerun. The sarrukh, at the height of their power, took the humans as their slaves. They performed terrible experiments on them. The most heartless of these humans were cultivated and eventually transformed into the first yuan-ti. Those considered less suitable for such a "gift" were kept on for manual labour. Breeding programs were set in place by the various sarrukh houses, each trying to out-do the other by creating a different looking set of humans. Over time, these breeding programs resulted in humans of many different appearances. Meanwhile, small groups of free humans still wandered the wilderness of Katashaka, keeping to a hunting and gathering lifestyle. Some say that these humans have special powers not possessed by the humans of other lands, for they were not altered by the yuan-ti.

During the thousand years that followed, the power of the sarrukh waned, and the yuan-ti rose to power in Mhairshaulk. While the yuan-ti struggled to gain a firm hold of the realm, four groups of humans managed to escape their cruel masters. One group fled north across the Strait of Lopango into the area that would later become known as Maztica. Their respite will not last long however, for not long after they would become newly enslaved by the batrachi of Nadezhda (BRJ). These people may in part be the ancestors of the Mazticans, although it is possible another migration of humans from another world was more responsible for this group. They may also be the predecessors of the Illuskans. Around the same time, another group of humans fled northeast. Pursued relentlessly by the yuan-ti, this group did not stop moving until finally the yuan-ti gave up the chase near the modern Alamber Sea area. This group of dark-skinned humans would later become known as the Turami. A third group fled along the southern coast until they finally came to rest in the area known as the Golden Lands. This tan-skinned group too would become the ancestors to the predecessors fo the Durpari and the Imaskari. A fourth group of fair-skinned humans would flee north, past the Lake of Steam into the area that would later become Calimshan. These were the descendants of the Talfir. The humans that remained slaves in Mhairshaulk eventually became one people, as the yuan-ti had less interest in the specificly targeted breeding programs of the sarrukh. These people would eventually become known as the Lapal.

The breaking apart of Abeir and Toril by Lord Ao after the Tearfall would result in many humans living an entirely separate existence in Abeir. Their history will not be recounted here.

All the humans that had managed to obtain their freedom kept to the lives of hunter-gatherers for millennia, and thus they slowly spread across Abeir-Toril, albeit in small numbers. These numbers were not only kept low by the need to find food, but also the predations of monsters and the various ruling races across the ages. The batrachi, the titans, aearee, the dragons, and the giants all looked upon humanity as a pitiful race of cave-dwellers that warranted little notice. Occasionally across the millennia a powerful member of these races would take an interest in some humans. The "Citadel of the Raven", built in the time of the Flowering of the Elves, is an example of this. A mighty dragon, seeking vengeance for the woes the elves had wrought on her people, sought to make humankind a great race that would do to the elves what the elves had done to the dragons. This plan would ultimately fail, but the Citadel remains a potent symbol of the potential power of humanity.

Not too long later, the First Sundering would be wrought by the elves, separating the humans of the western continents from the east for millennia upon millennia.

It was only well after the arrival of the elves that the first group of humans acheived a truly agricultural way of life were the fair-skinned humans that had fled north from Mhairshaulk, previously having lived in the forests of Keltormir and Shantel Othreier. The settled in the modern Green Fields area after part of the forest there was cleared by dragonfire. Their newfound life would not last forever, though - the invasion of Shantel Othreier by Aryvaandar would force many humans out to find other areas to settle. One of these groups headed east, settling in the Vilhon Reach, eventually becoming the Chondathan people. Another group would head northeast, following the rivers all the way to the fertile banks of the Narrow Sea - becoming the early Netherese (as well as the Rengarth and Angardt). Those that remained in the Green Fields area would later spread all the way along the Chionthar, and become known as the Talfir. At the same time, a group of these fair-skinned humans never settled down, preferring to remain in the forests of southern Keltormir. These people would later be known as the people of Mir, prominent ancestors of modern Tethyrians.

While the Crown Wars raged across the north and west of Faerun, the group of humans that had settled the Golden Lands slowly came into their own. Although they remained hunter-gatherers, they were beginning to near agricultural breakthrough. One group of these people migrated far to the north, eventually becoming the Taangan. Another northern migration a few hundred years later found the catalyst they needed in the Raurin Plateau, where they settled and became the Imaskari. Over the next two thousand years, the Imaskari developed into a powerful slave-owning people, who subjugated the Tangaan, the Turami people, and the people of Durpar - from where they themselves had come. This mingling of different ethnic groups over milennia, some of whom would leave and form new ethnic groups in different regions, would result in a variety of new peoples.

A group leaving Imaskar around -6,000 would become the Shaarans, while another spreading out to the east into Kara-Tur would become the ancestors of the Shou and many other Kara-Turan ethnicities. In the north, some of the subjugated Taangan would leave their old ways of life behind, and become the Raumvirans. In -5,000, some Raumvirans would head west and become the Rashemi. In turn, groups of Rashemi would migrate north to become the Sossrim, as well as west to become the Nar. The period of Shartra (darkness) in Imaskar would also lead them to open a gate to another world, bringing in the people that would eventually mix with them and become the Mulan. Around the same time, a group of powerful Imaskari would themselves migrate out of failing Imaskar, heading northwest to found the realm of Thaeravel, establishing a base from which they might study the phaerimm and investigate the rumoured existence of the Nether Scrolls. Much later, a northeastern group of Kara-Turans would become the Ulutiuns, and slowly spread over the polar ice cap, all the way across Toril to the far west, where they would descend into the Sword Coast and later become known as the Ice Hunters.

The rise of the Imaskari had caused much chaos in their ancestral homeland of the Golden Lands, and a group of humans left around -8,500, heading south into the continent that would later be known as Zakhara. These humans would remain primitive hunter-gatherers for millenia more, only establishing great kingdoms much later. However, one of these groups was taken as slaves by the noble djinni lord Calim, who would later bring them to Faerun. These people would become known as the Calishites. Much, much later, another group would migrate through a portal from Zakhara to the Anauroch region, becoming the Bedine.

Around -3,000, the fair-skinned Illuskans would arrive in the Sword Coast area. This group was descended from a group of the humans who had fled Mhairshaulk into Maztica, who had subsequently sailed west across the sea to a group of islands. In these islands they discovered a gate which landed them around the Valley of Khedrun, from where the tried to find their way back home, eventually giving up and settling in Ruathym.

Things would only really change for the Lapal people, still enslaved by the yuan-ti, after the arrival of the Tabaxi, Eshowe, and Thinguth tribes from far to the west - themselves descended from the original free Katashakans. The chaos brought by their migration would allow some Lapal to rebel against their yuan-ti masters, and establish their own free realms in the eastern jungles. Some of these people would eventually become the Tashalans. Continuing conflict with the yuan-ti would drive some of the Lapal to the area of modern Halruua. Later, many of the Lapal tribes would unite against the yuan-ti to found the nation of Lapaliiya.

Over time, nations and races would mix and new ethnicities would emerge. The modern Tethyrians are an example of this, as are the Damarans, the Arkaiuns, the Halruuans, and the Tesharans of the Moonsea area (a splinter group of whom would later become the Vaasans). The Gur are another example, being people of Narfell and Raumathar who fled far to the west, blending with other groups such as the Netherese as they went. The next age of humanity is likely to be one of even greater mixing.

Opinions? Most of this is derived from the Grand History of the Realms, with some significant tweaking (but no contradicting that I'm aware of).

Edit: I'd also have the original Ice Hunters be another offshoot from the pre-Talfir group of the Tethir clearing - this allows them to be present in the North in -3000 as required by GHotR. The modern Ice Hunters are a mix of this group with the Ulutiuns who migrated over the polar ice cap.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 18 May 2017 06:29:52
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Ayrik
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Canada
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Posted - 17 May 2017 :  07:40:31  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Spelljammer lore offers some ideas, too. "Glyth" on the FR Wiki page says: "Mind flayer refugees originally came from Glyth to Toril circa -10,700 DR in their Nautiloids and founded the city of Oryndoll." I'm not sure if this means refugee humans ("cattle") who escaped the illithids, or if this means the illithids themselves.

Planescape lore hardly discusses Primes or Toril at all. But human populations exist on many planes and many worlds, and nobody (not even Powers who claim otherwise) really knows where these humans came from. Human populations have been known to "spontaneously" appear in isolated planes and realms and worlds, anywhere conditions are right, with no real idea of how they came to those places.
Ignoring Faerunian religious teachings, humans might arrive from branches of the Yggdrasil World Tree, they might emerge in the Realms from planar conduits like the Celestial Staircase or the various Underworld Rivers or even the Platonic Caves of Ignorance, lol.

(Your) Realmslore offers portals. Humans arrive somewhere through a portal from somewhere else. Just as likely an ongoing process as an isolate event, portals can remain open indefinitely, portal endpoints can remain fixed or can move around, portals can cross oceans or planets or planes. Portals come and portals go, and peoples come and go along for the ride.

I personally think the origins of humans on (Abeir-)Toril are linked with those of humans on Oerth, humans on Krynn, and humans on Earth.

Not Realmslore, but canon provides an example of humans "evolving" (from halflings!) on Athas.

[/Ayrik]
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sleyvas
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Posted - 17 May 2017 :  12:20:05  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yeah, I noticed how when one was 'erased' from memory, the other's name was also erased, and both happened right around the same time. However, the similarities end there. Sure, both are also tied to 'the dead', but the Raven Queen isn't a bad sort, unlike Kiaransalee (unless, somehow her personality also shifted to something closer to how she was before she fell under Nerull's sway).

We could connect it to either stray bits of lore - both work. I just don't think we can get them to both work at the same time (since we KNOW kiaransalee came from Threnody, NOT Toril).

UNLESS... the drow of Abeir referred to their home as 'Threnody'.

Lets say Kiaransalee is/was 'The Raven Queen', and during the last 'Magical Chaos' (the fall of Mystryl/Netheril?) she gets shunted to Abeir. Torillian powers have no access there, but she finds a 'back door' leading her to Nerull. She worships (pays lip service to) Nerull, and is slowly corrupted by him. When she dies she goes to his Realm... only to start plotting against him from the beginning. It was all a very elaborate plan to get herself home.

Then she makes a deal with Lolth for her 'big move' against Nerull, but Lolth steals much of Nerull's former power for herself, and ascends to become a true Greater Goddess (with her own divine Realm, outside the Abyss) - The Silence of Lolth. Kiaransalee must wait a little longer for the right moment. Then someone cast that persnikity spell making 'everyone forget Kiaransalee', but she is still able to linger as a vestige in her original persona - The Raven Queen. The spell also stripped-away all the corruption Nerull had fostered on her. Thus, she starts-out under-powered (and no longer pure evil), and takes her time (the wailing years/lost century) to rebuild her/Nerull's power-base.

Still not a nice person, but not necessarily evil, ether. Just trying to find herself within the new framework of things. If Kiaransalee was also restored as of 5e, that could present a problem (both in and out of game). I'm still dying to connect tRQ to PF's Pharasma.

Can people please pick holes in all that? I just threw it together quickly - aside from the 'fudging'of Threnody, anything else?

And, of course, some part of Nerull might also be a vestige somewhere. Perhaps inside of Acerak?

Of course, thats pretty convoluted, just to connect her to the Citadel - I think I liked connecting it to the Netherese lady-mage better. I still haven't found her name, but I like to see her get some love, and also keep Kiaransalee and tRQ separate. She'd probably also have a thing against Karsus, if thats her, and he might be back in 5e as well (although I doubt it - he died WAY before 1e).



Bear in mind, neither Kiaransalee or the raven queen came from Toril. Also, Kiaransalee was often shown not as a drow, but as a white skinned elf-like woman with dark hair.

I'll honestly admit to not knowing much about the raven queen, but perhaps when her name was lost, she also lost a lot of her memory, and consequently a lot of what made her evil.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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KanzenAU
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Australia
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Posted - 17 May 2017 :  12:28:34  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you want to use the core-4e Raven Queen in Abeir-Toril and keep to the lore surrounding her, keep in mind that she ascended during the Dawn War. So that puts her ascending during the Blue Age and Shadow Epoch of Toril, and it's unlikely (but not impossible) that humans were around during that time, considering all that is mentioned is an aquatic race - which may or may not be the same as or rleated to Ed's "Rauth", or that may be another species that was around back then.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 17 May 2017 :  12:47:17  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Spelljammer lore offers some ideas, too. "Glyth" on the FR Wiki page says: "Mind flayer refugees originally came from Glyth to Toril circa -10,700 DR in their Nautiloids and founded the city of Oryndoll." I'm not sure if this means refugee humans ("cattle") who escaped the illithids, or if this means the illithids themselves.

I feel like the text in the GHotR implies it was an illithid settlement. Interestingly, "Realmspace" says that illithids had likely only been on Glyth for a century or so, and the GHotR calls Glyth a "star"... all very strange.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 17 May 2017 :  13:54:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

If you want to use the core-4e Raven Queen in Abeir-Toril and keep to the lore surrounding her, keep in mind that she ascended during the Dawn War. So that puts her ascending during the Blue Age and Shadow Epoch of Toril, and it's unlikely (but not impossible) that humans were around during that time, considering all that is mentioned is an aquatic race - which may or may not be the same as or releated to Ed's "Rauth", or that may be another species that was around back then.
Except thats not possible - Nerull was alive right up until the end of 3e.

In fact, had she ascended 'during the Dawn War', all of Nerull's history in D&D would have never happened. That makes NO SENSE. Designers should learn to read before they start playing with all the toys.

She could have been The Raven Queen - as I postulated above - before dying and going to Pluton, and she could have been THERE any number of years (although saying from the Dawn War forward is a bit much), but she could NOT have 'ascended' to godhood until recently. Its just not feasible.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'll honestly admit to not knowing much about the raven queen, but perhaps when her name was lost, she also lost a lot of her memory, and consequently a lot of what made her evil.
Yeah, thats pretty-much how I was spinning it above. the loss of the name also allowed her to shed whatever corruption nerull had piled on her.

I still prefer connecting her to the Lady Mage from Netheril - I have to find that name. I recall her death had something to do with the Crown of Horns, and Myrkul is connected to the Crown of Horns (quite literally, last I heard), and Myrkul and Nerull appear to be 'brothers from another mother' or some such (they are almost exactly alike). The way I was thinking about spinning it is that Nerull was involved in Myrkul getting the Crown in the first place, back when Myrkul was still a mortal prince of Murghôm. It may have been a bid on Nerull's part to establish a presence in Realmspace, and Myrkul was meant to be a Chosen, but he went his own way instead. Later, the crown is used in Netheril, and that poor woman becomes attached to it.

I wouldn't connect Kiaransalee and The Raven Queen directly then - I would say that when the spell was cast to erase the memory of Kiaransalee, The Raven Queen siphoned-off Kiarn's rapidly fleeing god-power and became a deity herself, but in so doing the spell affected her as well.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 May 2017 14:22:43
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KanzenAU
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Australia
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Posted - 17 May 2017 :  14:11:55  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

If you want to use the core-4e Raven Queen in Abeir-Toril and keep to the lore surrounding her, keep in mind that she ascended during the Dawn War. So that puts her ascending during the Blue Age and Shadow Epoch of Toril, and it's unlikely (but not impossible) that humans were around during that time, considering all that is mentioned is an aquatic race - which may or may not be the same as or releated to Ed's "Rauth", or that may be another species that was around back then.
Except thats not possible - Nerull was alive right up until the end of 3e.

In fact, had she ascended 'during the Dawn War', all of Nerull's history in D&D would have never happened. That makes NO SENSE. Designers should learn to read before they start playing with all the toys.

She could have been The Raven Queen - as I postulated above - before dying and going to Pluton, and she could have been THERE any number of years (although saying from the Dawn War forward is a bit much), but she could NOT have 'ascended' to godhood. Its just not feasible.

There's been a lot of speculation and theories about the two Nerulls, Pelors, Banes, and so forth. Some think that such gods were resurrected, others think that mortals arose and took some of the old gods' powers. I know there's been a little chatter here about such things, but there was a lot of non-FR talk about it back in the 4e days. I'm inclined to think in the case of Nerull, a mortal arose and took a fragment of the old gods' power along with his name (or perhaps it's a title?).

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 17 May 2017 :  14:31:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm actually okay with breaking all of FR's toys (heck, if the owners doesn't respect them, why should we?), but you leave my Greyahwk lore alone!!!

There is only ONE 'Nerull', and he is a truly ancient power. He may even be the closest thing to the 'death archtype' in D&D (I believe many of GH's gods are direct avatars of archtypes, because of the deep connection that setting has with The Great Wheel).

Some of the stuff I'm playing with now (in regards to all of this) is further connecting the Crown of Horns to Nerull, via my homebrew lore of the Netherese and Imaskari being connected to the Suel and Baklunish. That would give a good reason as to why the Crown of Horns was over in the Hordelands region (of course, the more important reason is because I've also theorized the 'Black Diamond' in the Crown is the same one as the one that drove the Fey out of the Prime Material, and that happened on Toril... or rather, Abeir-Toril, and that THAT incident took place in the east, in the Hanya Maut wasteland).

The problem with MY 'homebrew bits' is that they're almost all interconnected, so its difficult to take one of my theories and cut it away from the rest.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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