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 Why aren't there many uber-epic level fighters?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30403 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  19:01:15  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dispute the assertion that "Ed Greenwood likes high-level mages and so he fills his world with them," emphasis mine.

My 22% calculation is reached only by using a very generous definition of high-level (8th level and above). If you move the bar to say 15th or 20th level, the percentage drops dramatically.

Therefore, I have to disagree that Ed "fills" the world with them -- they are clearly only a small percentage.

And Ed has stated, more than once, that writing novels about high-level mages wasn't his choice: that was dictated to him by TSR/WotC. Hell, who was the first Realms character? Mirt. A non-wizard.

So why would they want the focus to be on high-level spellslingers? Because, as I said earlier, they are sexier. That's what people want to read about.

Perhaps there are more high-level wizards detailed than high-level fighters... But in a setting with millions of people, of which we might be able to name 1%, we can't assume that high-level fighters don't exist simply because they aren't named. You might as well say there are almost no farmers in the Realms because so few are named.

Fighters and other classes aren't rarely mentioned because -- again -- the wizards are the ones that command attention. They have abilities that can't be replicated in the real world, unlike most other classes*. A high-level wizard can have much more of an impact on the world than other character classes, as well. And a wizard can do a heck of a lot with just a single word or gesture -- which again sets them apart from other classes.

And that is why we see wizards all the time: people want to see them, people find them more interesting, and WotC and TSR before them have always catered to that demand.

*One of a cleric's biggest draws is their healing ability, but while modern medicine may be slower, it can offer a lot of the same healing. Therefore, this isn't as interesting to people as a wizard calling forth the very elements to level a city.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Jun 2017 19:02:16
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe

97 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  19:14:54  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would think that the presence of 15th+ level fighters would be something that should be mentioned in source material. If they exist but are never referenced anywhere, they effectively don't exist in terms of perception. So, sure, it's possible that there are 10x as many high-level fighters as high-level wizards, but if only the high-level wizards are mentioned then it might as well just be a world of high-level wizards.

Anyways, we seem to be going in circles here so I'm bowing out of the conversation.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6448 Posts

Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  23:46:14  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A large number of high-level fighters were named in the 2E FRA sourcebook. The "Cities of the Heartlands" section is filled with "Armed Forces" entries which collectively describe vast armies of fighters spanning the Heartlands ("a garrison of 3000 Purple Dragons [F0 to F4], commanded by a Warden of the Port [LG hm F14]", "6000 veteran soldiers, led by a Battlemaster [LN hm F16]", etc). The focus of these "Armed Forces" entries is mainly raw numbers and combat gear: it's obviously just a quick summary of military force. The "Notable Mages", "Notable Churches", and "Important Characters" entries typically fill the other half of each page with a dozen or so high-level characters, and while there are a few more mighty warriors the majority are spectacularly accomplished wizards.

I haven't bothered to do the counting, but it's obvious there's quite a lot of high-level fighters - it seems like every settlement larger than a village has some sort of militia, standing army, mercenary force, or (unwanted) foreign garrison - and it seems like there's no shortage of high-level warriors available to lead them. Not to mention all the high-level warriors who tend to form the actual government (ruling lords, etc) of the city. Every settlement also has a handful of (in)famous wizard celebrities. But I think it's evident there's far more warriors than mages at highest levels.

The warriors are just lumped within armies. This many men wear plate, that many wear chain, this many swordsmen, that many archers, this many spearmen, that many cavalry, etc etc. They're all specially trained for ship-to-ship boarding skirmishes or hobbit hole hunting or whatever. They're led by Sir Loyne of Beefe, described as an oversized hamburger-eating martinet [LN hm F18], along with his two senior Beefcakes [LN hm F12] and his two junior Beefpatties [LN F9], etc. They're basically written as boring combat encounters. They're disposable, they're replaceable, they're uninteresting. They're invariably male, Lawful-aligned, and almost entirely interchangeable.

The wizards are each given at least one paragraph. Magical specialties. Magical items. Signature spells, special magical talents, known for certain showy or deadly things, feared magical dueller, etc etc. They're celebrities, they're showy and flamboyant, or they're potent and unapproachable, they live in a higher-level world than the faceless masses. And it's often implied that they can defeat entire armies.

People don't care much about armies clashing unless it's happening right on their doorstep. A battle between two mighty heaving, sweating, crushing, cursing champion fighters is interesting for a while, but quickly forgotten. Rumours and accounts and embellishments about a wizard duel can excitedly circulate across half the Heartlands, being told and retold for years.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Jun 2017 23:48:34
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
472 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  00:41:48  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another reason is probably the game itself. Ed really got going with FR with D&D (I know he started beforehand, but the two are inextricably linked). In 1E and even 2E, high level wizards were simply way more powerful than any other class and fighters were far weaker. Balance between the classes didn't really come into vogue until 3E and improved with 4E and is probably about the same in 5E (maybe gotten a little worse). Plus high level wizards could do all sorts of amazing magical things, which high level fighters especially in 1e and 2e couldn't (no feats, no action surge, etc.) -- pretty much the only thing they could do was attack multiple level 1 creatures with one hit, cool, but nothing compared to a wish, prismatic sphere, meteor swarm, or time stop.
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe

USA
112 Posts

Posted - 09 Jun 2017 :  14:26:49  Show Profile  Send LordXenophon an AOL message Send LordXenophon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A level 20 Fighter will probably survive at least the first Meteor Swarm, probably the second or third. He can draw a Dragon's fire away from the rest of the party and live to brag about it. He can combine the powers of a Girdle of Giant Strength, Gauntlets of Ogre Power and a Hammer of Thunderbolts, none of which Wizards are allowed to use. He has a decent chance of hitting AC -10 on the first try. His sword is more likely to work against high level characters than are the Wizard's spells. He has access to many of the same high-level magics as the Wizard, through various enchanted items, such as a Ring of 3 Wishes, Scrolls of Protection, special powers of his sword, Helms of Brilliance, Necklaces of Missiles, Wands of Magic Missiles and Paralysis, etc. He can wear a Ring of Spell Turning, without fear of spell reverberation, because he doesn't need to use spells. As mentioned before, high level fighters can raise armies. Most importantly, while the Wizard will eventually run out of spells, the Fighter will never run out of sword swings.

I have never had any trouble balancing high level fighters with high level wizards, in 2e.

Come to think of it, the lack of uber-epic level fighters could be due to an aversion to including these kinds of magic items in campaigns.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

They're led by Sir Loyne of Beefe

I thought Sir Loyne of Angus was the only Loyne to be knighted.

Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder.

Edited by - LordXenophon on 09 Jun 2017 14:28:43
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
148 Posts

Posted - 14 Jun 2017 :  14:48:52  Show Profile  Visit Eli the Tanner's Homepage Send Eli the Tanner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's a list I made a while back, which I have posted elsewhere before but might be good to share here too. It's based on 3,ex stats and probably incomplete. If you there are any missing let me know.

Warriors (circa 1370's)

Please note: These totals are BAB, not CR.

25 Shuruppak (NE male human Ftr20/Rog3/Wiz7) (p304 Epic Level Handbook)

23 Gareth Dragonsbane, King of Damara (LG male human Pal20/Clr5 of Ilmater) (p108 FRCS)

22 Sraece Telthorn (CN male human Ftr16/Swashbuckler 7) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613)

21 Dabron Sashenstar (CG male Tethyrian human Ftr8/Rgr10/Merchant Prince 5) (p82 Power of Faerun)
21 Dove Falconhand, Chosen of Mystra (CG female human Rgr14/Sor9/Rog4/Harper agent 1) (p280 FRCS)
21 Rassendyll Uoumdolhin, High Blade of Mulmaster (NE male Damaran human Ftr20/Rgr2) (p94 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
21 Rethnor, High Captain of Luskan (LE male human Ftr16/Rog7) (p155 Lords of Darkness)
21 Yder Tanthul, Prince of Shade (NE male shade Ftr11/Sor12/Shadow adept 4/Divine champion 4) (p156 Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land)

20 Eltan, Grand Duke of Baldur’s Gate (LN male human Ftr20) (p225 FRCS)
20 Hykros Allumen (LG male Illuskan human Pal20 of Tyr) (p47 City of Splendors: Waterdeep)
20 Jhorrgel the Black, Master of the Old Lodge (CN male human Bbn20) (p147 Unapproachable East)
20 Laharin Goldbeard, Master of the Knights of Samular (LG Illuskan male human Pal20 of Tyr) (p45 City of Splendors: Waterdeep)
20 Narandil Greatshield, Lord-General of Glarondar (LN male half-elf Ftr20) (p108 Unapproachable East)
20 Omis Dohor (LN male half-elf Mnk30) (Icewind Dale II)
20 Texter the Paladin, Masked Lord of Waterdeep (Male Chondathan human Pal20 of Tyr) (p55 City of Splendors: Waterdeep)
20 Vaerana Hawklyn (CG female human Rgr20) (p143 FRCS)


19 Aglarel Tanthul, Prince of Shade (NE male Shade human Sor10/Ftr10/Clr6/Shadow adept 2) (p84 Lords of Darkness)
19 Eldrith the Betrayer (LE female human Pal9/Blackguard 10) (p114 Dragon 296)
19 Hippartes, King of Akanax (LN male human Ftr19) (p183 FRCS)
19 Kaanyr Vhok, the Sceptered One (CE male Illuskan human half-fiend Ftr16/Sor6) (p130 Power of Faerun)

18 Cavatina Xarann, Darksong Knight (CG female drow Ftr8/Clr14) (p37 Expedition to Undermountain)
18 Chergon Holvik (LG male human Ftr8/Knight of the Flying Hunt 10) (p87 Champions of Valor)
18 Daelegoth Orndeir, Sunlord (LN fire genasi Clr10/Evangelist 5/Sunmaster) (p59 Power of Faerun)
18 Durnan the Wanderer (NG male Illuskan human Ftr18) (p44 Expedition to Undermountain)
18 Elminster, Sage of Shadowdale (CG male human Chosen of Mystra Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz24/Acm5) (p291 Epic level Handbook)
18 Engarth, War Captain (LG male Damaran human Rgr2/Pal9/Triadic knight 7) (p92 Champions of Valor)
18 Erthaer Javilarhhsson, Baron (CG male Illuskan human ghost Rgr13/Dread commando 5) (p99 Power of Faerun)
18 Harlakh Doroaver, King of Swords (CN male Halruuan human Ftr18) (p152 Power of Faerun)
18 Jardwim (NG male Illuskan human Ftr15/Gray Hand enforcer 3) (p38 City of Splendors: Waterdeep)
18 Jarlaxle (Male drow Swashbuckler 18) (p161 Underdark) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613)
18 Pherix Traeleth (CG male otherworldly star elf human Warlock 8/Mindbender 1/Hellfire warlock/Master of the Yuirwood 10/Enlightened spirit 6) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070328)
18 Skoalam Marlgrask (CN male Chessentan human Swashbuckler 18) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613)
18 Volas Dyervolk the Bear, Iron Lord (CG male human Bbn18) (p144 Unapproachable East)


17 Artor Morlin, Baron of Blood (LE male Tethyrian human vampire Ftr13/Blackguard 3/Master vampire 3) (p72 Dungeon 128)
17 Charles O’Kan (LN male human Ftr17) (p215 FRCS)
17 Dhelt, Lord of Elturel (LG male human Pal17 of Helm) (p227 FRCS)
17 Dervila Greenbow (CG female half-elf Rgr11/Master of the Yuirwood 8) (p110 Unapproachable East)
17 Harbromm, King of Citadel Adbar (LG male shield dwarf Ftr10/Dwarven defender 7) (p71 Silver Marches)
17 Iyraclea, the Ice Queen (NE female human Clrr15/Divine disciple 5/Heriophant 5 of Auril) (p302 Epic level Handbook)
17 Mirthal Aendryr, Duke of Durmista (N male wild elf Ftr10/Rog10) (p124 Lost Empires of Faerun)
17 Tarngardt Steelshadow VII, King of Gracklstugh (LE male duergar Ftr17) (p212 FRCS)
17 Thessaloni Canos, Tharchion of the Alaor (LE female human Ftr17) (p151 Unapproachable East)
17 Thomwaith De’Krestin (N male Chondathan human Crusader 17) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070911)


16 Artemis Entreri (LE male human Rog4/Rgr1/Ftr12/Asn1) (p158 FRCS)
16 Autharch Ithrash (LE male human Ftr9/Rog4/Blackguard 4) (p168 Unapproachable East)
16 Avjianos Greatspan (CG male avariel Warblade 10/Eternal blade 6) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070911)
16 Burtrar Malith (NE male Chondathan human Ftr16) (p127 Power of Faerun)
16 Brian the Swordmaster (NG male human Ftr4/Exp16) (p53 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
16 Cyrvisnea (LE female ogre mage Ftr16) (p43 Power of Faerun)
16 Dipren Qarto, Captain of Eltabbar guard (LE male human Ftr16) (p169 Unapproachable East)
16 Drizzt Do’Urden (CG male drow Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5) (p177 FRCS)
16 Earlraun Shadowlyn, Moonlord (CG male half-elf Rgr16) (p76 Silver Marches)
16 Eishaera Sashenstar (NG female human Exp16/Merchant princess 5) (p83 Power of Faerun)
16 Emerus Warcrown, King of Citadel Felbarr (LG male shield dwarf Ftr16) (p68 Silver Marches)
16 Erevis Cale, Chosen of Mask (N male human Shade Rog6/Ftr3/Clr11/Divine Disciple 2) (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/erevis-35.htm)
16 Gargan the Dispossessed (CG male goliath Bbn1/Rgr6/Goliath liberator/Tempest 5) (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/lore.htm) (The Fox and the Dispossessed, Part 2)
16 Hovor Seawind, High Captain (CG male half-elf Ftr4/Rog6/Aglorondan griffonrider 8) (p85 Unapproachable East)
16 Jhesentel Firetalon (CG female Damaran human Ftr16) (p95 Champions of Valor)
16 Khumarr (CE male drow Ftr7/Blk4/Divine champion 5 of Kiaransalee) (p154 City of the Spider Queen)
16 Kriben Vantur, Captain of Escalant Guard (LE male human Ftr16) (p169 Unapproachable East)
16 Redeye (CE male lizardfolk Bbn11/Divine champion 5 of Talos) (p224 FRCS)
16 Rayanna the Rose (LN female human Ftr16) (p104 Champions of Valor)
16 Ryld Agrith, Master of Melee-Magthere (CN male drow Rog2/Ftr15) (p86 Dragon 312)
16 Storm Silverhand, Chosen of Mystra (CG female human Rog1/Ftr4/Sor12/Brd8/Harper Agent 3) (p292 Epic Level Handbook)
16 Thalaman Harthgroth (N male human Bar5/Ftr11) (p138 FRCS)
16 Thaltor Blacksaddle, Baron of Blacksaddle (LN male Damaran human Ftr16) (135 Power of Faerun)
16 Tlinthar Regheriad, High Dawnknight (LG male Illuskan human Pal16 of Lathander) (p55 Power of Faerun)
16 Yldar Nathalan (CG male sun elf swashbuckler 3/bladesong duskblade 13) (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/lore.htm) (The Greater Treasure: A Heart of Darkness and Ynloth's Legacy)

15 Ankh-Malar, Chosen of Malar (CE male human Bbn15) (p87 Dungeon #129)
15 Ayesunder Truesilver(LG male human Ftr15) (p35 Dungeon #113)
15 Azhir Kren, Tharchion of Gauros (NE female human Ftr15) (p152 Unapproachable East)
15 Baltir Merivolst (LG male human Ftr7/Knight of the Flying Hunt 8) (p87 Champions of Valor)
15 Cadderly Bonaduce (NG male human Clr20) (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_deneir)
15 Daeghun Farlong (N male elf Rgr15) (Neverwinter Nights 2)
15 Esterelve (LN male Chondathan human Ftr8/Cavalier 7) (p95 Champions of Valor)
15 Furifax (LE male moon half-elf Ftr15) (p187 FRCS)
15 Gelgar Talonguard (LN male human Rgr15) (p110 FRCS)
15 Greila Sontoin(LN femal human Clr20) (p139 Shining South)
15 Heldel Thasstan (CG male human Clr20) (p95 Champions of Valor)
15 Helm Dwarf-friend (NG male human Ftr10/Rgr5) (p67 Silver Marches)
15 Homen Odesseiron, Tharchion of Surhay (LE male human Evo6/Red Wizard 1/Ftr12) (p156 Unapproachable East)
15 Keshna Finlothleer, Grand Master of Shadows (NE female human Rogue 9/Assassin 4/Telflammar shadowlord 9)(p184 Unapproachable East)
15 Limbrar, War Captain (LG male human Mnk5/Pal12 of Ilmater) (p92 Champions of Valor)
15 Madeiron Sunderstone (LG male Illuskan human Pal15) (p34 City of Splendors)
15 Mhaelori, Swordcaptain (CG male half-Illuskan human-moon elf Rgr6/Wildrunner 9) (p100 Power of Faerun)
15 King Osaw I the Wise, Chosen of Ubtao (LG male human Pal15 of Ubtao) (p108 FRCS)
15 Pheszeltan (N male human Drd17/Divine disciple 4 of Silvanus) (p223 FRCS)
15 Scyllua Darkhope (LE female Chondathan human Pal5/Rgr4/Blk6 of Bane) (p136 Shadowdale: scouring of the dale)
15 Sess’sth (CN male lizardfolk Bbn13/Tribal Protector 2) (p114 Dragon #296)
15 Stavar (LG male human Ftr10/Purple Dragon knight 5) (p113 FRCS)
15 Szass Tam, Zulkir of Necromancy (NE male human lich Nec10/Red wizard 17/Archmage 2) (p297 Epic level Handbook)
15 Talindra Amalith (CN female wild elf Bbn15) (p79 Champions of Ruins)
15 Tilgath (LN female Untheri human Clr16/Ftr3) (74 Dragons of Faerun)
15 Triel Baenre, Matron Mother (CE female drow Clr20) (p161 Underdark)
15 Yanseldra (NG female human Ftr11/Sor8) (p143 FRCS)

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6448 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  04:09:27  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Quite a list - and canon be damned! - I'm entirely disinclined to consider Elminster a fighter, lol.

Given the vague assumption that characters level 18+ are literally one-in-a-million individuals, this list (which only includes warriors) already suggests a total Realms population of over 33 million souls, lol.

[/Ayrik]
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  08:51:02  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Quite a list - and canon be damned! - I'm entirely disinclined to consider Elminster a fighter, lol.

Given the vague assumption that characters level 18+ are literally one-in-a-million individuals, this list (which only includes warriors) already suggests a total Realms population of over 33 million souls, lol.


You may be interested to know that the population of Faerun alone (inclusive of Evermeet and the Hordelands), calculated from adding together the populations in the FRCS, is in excess of 65 million souls in 1372 DR!

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe

USA
112 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  13:54:43  Show Profile  Send LordXenophon an AOL message Send LordXenophon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Quite a list - and canon be damned! - I'm entirely disinclined to consider Elminster a fighter, lol.

Given the vague assumption that characters level 18+ are literally one-in-a-million individuals, this list (which only includes warriors) already suggests a total Realms population of over 33 million souls, lol.


You may be interested to know that the population of Faerun alone (inclusive of Evermeet and the Hordelands), calculated from adding together the populations in the FRCS, is in excess of 65 million souls in 1372 DR!


Which is a out a quarter of what Earth's population was, at a similar level of development. That makes Faerun comparable to Europe.

Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder.
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2017 :  19:09:44  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Quite a list - and canon be damned! - I'm entirely disinclined to consider Elminster a fighter, lol.

Given the vague assumption that characters level 18+ are literally one-in-a-million individuals, this list (which only includes warriors) already suggests a total Realms population of over 33 million souls, lol.


You may be interested to know that the population of Faerun alone (inclusive of Evermeet and the Hordelands), calculated from adding together the populations in the FRCS, is in excess of 65 million souls in 1372 DR!


Which is a out a quarter of what Earth's population was, at a similar level of development. That makes Faerun comparable to Europe.


Well...yeah. Faerun's a continent, not the whole planet. It kinda fits approximately with 13th century or so Earth - but the comparison isn't hugely relevant because they're very different places!

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Taleras
Seeker

49 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2017 :  03:36:20  Show Profile Send Taleras a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How do the levels work on that list? For example Cadderly is listed at 20 CLR, but is only level 15? Then Entreri is Rog4/Rgr1/Ftr12/Asn1 which seems to add up to 18, but he's only level 16? Then Drizzt is Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5 which actually adds up to 16. Seems confusing...I'm guessing I am just missing something though.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30403 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2017 :  04:35:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Taleras

How do the levels work on that list? For example Cadderly is listed at 20 CLR, but is only level 15? Then Entreri is Rog4/Rgr1/Ftr12/Asn1 which seems to add up to 18, but he's only level 16? Then Drizzt is Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5 which actually adds up to 16. Seems confusing...I'm guessing I am just missing something though.



I'm more confused by Szass Tam being on a list of warriors.

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Taleras
Seeker

49 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2017 :  04:53:58  Show Profile Send Taleras a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That was a whole other question, are Clerics considered warriors? There are appear to be others on there besides Szass Tam that I wouldn't consider warriors.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6448 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2017 :  06:22:22  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Old AD&D had straightforward classes. You were one class, possibly a multi-class or dual-class. You weren't 4 levels of something, 3 levels something else, 8 levels another something else, etc, before finally settling onto your primary career path (along with an assortment of prestige class levels), lol.

I don't happen to agree with many specifics on that list. But I don't play that game edition, I don't embrace that Realmslore edition. And it doesn't seem to matter all that much - unless being pedantic over fine details and definitions and computing exact numbers of this-vs-that - in determining whether "many uber-epic level fighters" exist in the Realms.

Even ignoring the specific counts of classed NPCs in Realmslore, I ask why is it that the popular consensus seems to readily agree that wizards vastly "outnumber" their warrior counterparts in the Realms?

[/Ayrik]
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
648 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2017 :  06:43:24  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner

Here's a list I made a while back, which I have posted elsewhere before but might be good to share here too. It's based on 3,ex stats and probably incomplete. If you there are any missing let me know.

Warriors (circa 1370's)

Please note: These totals are BAB, not CR.

25 Shuruppak (NE male human Ftr20/Rog3/Wiz7) (p304 Epic Level Handbook)

23 Gareth Dragonsbane, King of Damara (LG male human Pal20/Clr5 of Ilmater) (p108 FRCS)

22 Sraece Telthorn (CN male human Ftr16/Swashbuckler 7) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613)

21 Dabron Sashenstar (CG male Tethyrian human Ftr8/Rgr10/Merchant Prince 5) (p82 Power of Faerun)
21 Dove Falconhand, Chosen of Mystra (CG female human Rgr14/Sor9/Rog4/Harper agent 1) (p280 FRCS)
21 Rassendyll Uoumdolhin, High Blade of Mulmaster (NE male Damaran human Ftr20/Rgr2) (p94 Mysteries of the Moonsea)
21 Rethnor, High Captain of Luskan (LE male human Ftr16/Rog7) (p155 Lords of Darkness)
21 Yder Tanthul, Prince of Shade (NE male shade Ftr11/Sor12/Shadow adept 4/Divine champion 4) (p156 Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land)

20 Eltan, Grand Duke of Baldur’s Gate (LN male human Ftr20) (p225 FRCS)
20 Hykros Allumen (LG male Illuskan human Pal20 of Tyr) (p47 City of Splendors: Waterdeep)
20 Jhorrgel the Black, Master of the Old Lodge (CN male human Bbn20) (p147 Unapproachable East)
20 Laharin Goldbeard, Master of the Knights of Samular (LG Illuskan male human Pal20 of Tyr) (p45 City of Splendors: Waterdeep)
20 Narandil Greatshield, Lord-General of Glarondar (LN male half-elf Ftr20) (p108 Unapproachable East)
20 Omis Dohor (LN male half-elf Mnk30) (Icewind Dale II)
20 Texter the Paladin, Masked Lord of Waterdeep (Male Chondathan human Pal20 of Tyr) (p55 City of Splendors: Waterdeep)
20 Vaerana Hawklyn (CG female human Rgr20) (p143 FRCS)


19 Aglarel Tanthul, Prince of Shade (NE male Shade human Sor10/Ftr10/Clr6/Shadow adept 2) (p84 Lords of Darkness)
19 Eldrith the Betrayer (LE female human Pal9/Blackguard 10) (p114 Dragon 296)
19 Hippartes, King of Akanax (LN male human Ftr19) (p183 FRCS)
19 Kaanyr Vhok, the Sceptered One (CE male Illuskan human half-fiend Ftr16/Sor6) (p130 Power of Faerun)

18 Cavatina Xarann, Darksong Knight (CG female drow Ftr8/Clr14) (p37 Expedition to Undermountain)
18 Chergon Holvik (LG male human Ftr8/Knight of the Flying Hunt 10) (p87 Champions of Valor)
18 Daelegoth Orndeir, Sunlord (LN fire genasi Clr10/Evangelist 5/Sunmaster) (p59 Power of Faerun)
18 Durnan the Wanderer (NG male Illuskan human Ftr18) (p44 Expedition to Undermountain)
18 Elminster, Sage of Shadowdale (CG male human Chosen of Mystra Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz24/Acm5) (p291 Epic level Handbook)
18 Engarth, War Captain (LG male Damaran human Rgr2/Pal9/Triadic knight 7) (p92 Champions of Valor)
18 Erthaer Javilarhhsson, Baron (CG male Illuskan human ghost Rgr13/Dread commando 5) (p99 Power of Faerun)
18 Harlakh Doroaver, King of Swords (CN male Halruuan human Ftr18) (p152 Power of Faerun)
18 Jardwim (NG male Illuskan human Ftr15/Gray Hand enforcer 3) (p38 City of Splendors: Waterdeep)
18 Jarlaxle (Male drow Swashbuckler 18) (p161 Underdark) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613)
18 Pherix Traeleth (CG male otherworldly star elf human Warlock 8/Mindbender 1/Hellfire warlock/Master of the Yuirwood 10/Enlightened spirit 6) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070328)
18 Skoalam Marlgrask (CN male Chessentan human Swashbuckler 18) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070613)
18 Volas Dyervolk the Bear, Iron Lord (CG male human Bbn18) (p144 Unapproachable East)


17 Artor Morlin, Baron of Blood (LE male Tethyrian human vampire Ftr13/Blackguard 3/Master vampire 3) (p72 Dungeon 128)
17 Charles O’Kan (LN male human Ftr17) (p215 FRCS)
17 Dhelt, Lord of Elturel (LG male human Pal17 of Helm) (p227 FRCS)
17 Dervila Greenbow (CG female half-elf Rgr11/Master of the Yuirwood 8) (p110 Unapproachable East)
17 Harbromm, King of Citadel Adbar (LG male shield dwarf Ftr10/Dwarven defender 7) (p71 Silver Marches)
17 Iyraclea, the Ice Queen (NE female human Clrr15/Divine disciple 5/Heriophant 5 of Auril) (p302 Epic level Handbook)
17 Mirthal Aendryr, Duke of Durmista (N male wild elf Ftr10/Rog10) (p124 Lost Empires of Faerun)
17 Tarngardt Steelshadow VII, King of Gracklstugh (LE male duergar Ftr17) (p212 FRCS)
17 Thessaloni Canos, Tharchion of the Alaor (LE female human Ftr17) (p151 Unapproachable East)
17 Thomwaith De’Krestin (N male Chondathan human Crusader 17) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070911)


16 Artemis Entreri (LE male human Rog4/Rgr1/Ftr12/Asn1) (p158 FRCS)
16 Autharch Ithrash (LE male human Ftr9/Rog4/Blackguard 4) (p168 Unapproachable East)
16 Avjianos Greatspan (CG male avariel Warblade 10/Eternal blade 6) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070911)
16 Burtrar Malith (NE male Chondathan human Ftr16) (p127 Power of Faerun)
16 Brian the Swordmaster (NG male human Ftr4/Exp16) (p53 Waterdeep: City of Splendors)
16 Cyrvisnea (LE female ogre mage Ftr16) (p43 Power of Faerun)
16 Dipren Qarto, Captain of Eltabbar guard (LE male human Ftr16) (p169 Unapproachable East)
16 Drizzt Do’Urden (CG male drow Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5) (p177 FRCS)
16 Earlraun Shadowlyn, Moonlord (CG male half-elf Rgr16) (p76 Silver Marches)
16 Eishaera Sashenstar (NG female human Exp16/Merchant princess 5) (p83 Power of Faerun)
16 Emerus Warcrown, King of Citadel Felbarr (LG male shield dwarf Ftr16) (p68 Silver Marches)
16 Erevis Cale, Chosen of Mask (N male human Shade Rog6/Ftr3/Clr11/Divine Disciple 2) (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/erevis-35.htm)
16 Gargan the Dispossessed (CG male goliath Bbn1/Rgr6/Goliath liberator/Tempest 5) (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/lore.htm) (The Fox and the Dispossessed, Part 2)
16 Hovor Seawind, High Captain (CG male half-elf Ftr4/Rog6/Aglorondan griffonrider 8) (p85 Unapproachable East)
16 Jhesentel Firetalon (CG female Damaran human Ftr16) (p95 Champions of Valor)
16 Khumarr (CE male drow Ftr7/Blk4/Divine champion 5 of Kiaransalee) (p154 City of the Spider Queen)
16 Kriben Vantur, Captain of Escalant Guard (LE male human Ftr16) (p169 Unapproachable East)
16 Redeye (CE male lizardfolk Bbn11/Divine champion 5 of Talos) (p224 FRCS)
16 Rayanna the Rose (LN female human Ftr16) (p104 Champions of Valor)
16 Ryld Agrith, Master of Melee-Magthere (CN male drow Rog2/Ftr15) (p86 Dragon 312)
16 Storm Silverhand, Chosen of Mystra (CG female human Rog1/Ftr4/Sor12/Brd8/Harper Agent 3) (p292 Epic Level Handbook)
16 Thalaman Harthgroth (N male human Bar5/Ftr11) (p138 FRCS)
16 Thaltor Blacksaddle, Baron of Blacksaddle (LN male Damaran human Ftr16) (135 Power of Faerun)
16 Tlinthar Regheriad, High Dawnknight (LG male Illuskan human Pal16 of Lathander) (p55 Power of Faerun)
16 Yldar Nathalan (CG male sun elf swashbuckler 3/bladesong duskblade 13) (http://www.candlekeep.com/library/lore.htm) (The Greater Treasure: A Heart of Darkness and Ynloth's Legacy)

15 Ankh-Malar, Chosen of Malar (CE male human Bbn15) (p87 Dungeon #129)
15 Ayesunder Truesilver(LG male human Ftr15) (p35 Dungeon #113)
15 Azhir Kren, Tharchion of Gauros (NE female human Ftr15) (p152 Unapproachable East)
15 Baltir Merivolst (LG male human Ftr7/Knight of the Flying Hunt 8) (p87 Champions of Valor)
15 Cadderly Bonaduce (NG male human Clr20) (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_deneir)
15 Daeghun Farlong (N male elf Rgr15) (Neverwinter Nights 2)
15 Esterelve (LN male Chondathan human Ftr8/Cavalier 7) (p95 Champions of Valor)
15 Furifax (LE male moon half-elf Ftr15) (p187 FRCS)
15 Gelgar Talonguard (LN male human Rgr15) (p110 FRCS)
15 Greila Sontoin(LN femal human Clr20) (p139 Shining South)
15 Heldel Thasstan (CG male human Clr20) (p95 Champions of Valor)
15 Helm Dwarf-friend (NG male human Ftr10/Rgr5) (p67 Silver Marches)
15 Homen Odesseiron, Tharchion of Surhay (LE male human Evo6/Red Wizard 1/Ftr12) (p156 Unapproachable East)
15 Keshna Finlothleer, Grand Master of Shadows (NE female human Rogue 9/Assassin 4/Telflammar shadowlord 9)(p184 Unapproachable East)
15 Limbrar, War Captain (LG male human Mnk5/Pal12 of Ilmater) (p92 Champions of Valor)
15 Madeiron Sunderstone (LG male Illuskan human Pal15) (p34 City of Splendors)
15 Mhaelori, Swordcaptain (CG male half-Illuskan human-moon elf Rgr6/Wildrunner 9) (p100 Power of Faerun)
15 King Osaw I the Wise, Chosen of Ubtao (LG male human Pal15 of Ubtao) (p108 FRCS)
15 Pheszeltan (N male human Drd17/Divine disciple 4 of Silvanus) (p223 FRCS)
15 Scyllua Darkhope (LE female Chondathan human Pal5/Rgr4/Blk6 of Bane) (p136 Shadowdale: scouring of the dale)
15 Sess’sth (CN male lizardfolk Bbn13/Tribal Protector 2) (p114 Dragon #296)
15 Stavar (LG male human Ftr10/Purple Dragon knight 5) (p113 FRCS)
15 Szass Tam, Zulkir of Necromancy (NE male human lich Nec10/Red wizard 17/Archmage 2) (p297 Epic level Handbook)
15 Talindra Amalith (CN female wild elf Bbn15) (p79 Champions of Ruins)
15 Tilgath (LN female Untheri human Clr16/Ftr3) (74 Dragons of Faerun)
15 Triel Baenre, Matron Mother (CE female drow Clr20) (p161 Underdark)
15 Yanseldra (NG female human Ftr11/Sor8) (p143 FRCS)



Zaknafein Do'Urden 24th level Fighter (Menzo boxset).

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Taleras
Seeker

49 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2017 :  13:39:46  Show Profile Send Taleras a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Old AD&D had straightforward classes. You were one class, possibly a multi-class or dual-class. You weren't 4 levels of something, 3 levels something else, 8 levels another something else, etc, before finally settling onto your primary career path (along with an assortment of prestige class levels), lol.

I don't happen to agree with many specifics on that list. But I don't play that game edition, I don't embrace that Realmslore edition. And it doesn't seem to matter all that much - unless being pedantic over fine details and definitions and computing exact numbers of this-vs-that - in determining whether "many uber-epic level fighters" exist in the Realms.



Is there any literature online that discusses how those levels are computed? Is the current edition more straightforward? Or is that the current edition?
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
648 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2017 :  14:06:52  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Taleras

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Old AD&D had straightforward classes. You were one class, possibly a multi-class or dual-class. You weren't 4 levels of something, 3 levels something else, 8 levels another something else, etc, before finally settling onto your primary career path (along with an assortment of prestige class levels), lol.

I don't happen to agree with many specifics on that list. But I don't play that game edition, I don't embrace that Realmslore edition. And it doesn't seem to matter all that much - unless being pedantic over fine details and definitions and computing exact numbers of this-vs-that - in determining whether "many uber-epic level fighters" exist in the Realms.



Is there any literature online that discusses how those levels are computed? Is the current edition more straightforward? Or is that the current edition?



Most of those stats are from 3rd edition. You add up all your class levels to get your over all character level.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30403 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2017 :  17:42:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik


Even ignoring the specific counts of classed NPCs in Realmslore, I ask why is it that the popular consensus seems to readily agree that wizards vastly "outnumber" their warrior counterparts in the Realms?



It's what I've been saying: wizards are sexier and get all the attention.

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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3434 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2017 :  17:43:35  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And in the list above, its not total levels combined but rather the Base Attack Bonus of all the classes combined. So a fighter 5/ wizard 20 still only has a BAB of 15.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
148 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2017 :  18:03:12  Show Profile  Visit Eli the Tanner's Homepage Send Eli the Tanner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Taleras

How do the levels work on that list? For example Cadderly is listed at 20 CLR, but is only level 15? Then Entreri is Rog4/Rgr1/Ftr12/Asn1 which seems to add up to 18, but he's only level 16? Then Drizzt is Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5 which actually adds up to 16. Seems confusing...I'm guessing I am just missing something though.



Aye, you'll note at the top of the list it is based on a character's BAB (base attack bonus) rather than overall level. BAB is a measure in 3rd edition of a character's rough skill in combat and all attacks are based off it. Therefore characters with exclusively combat-orientated classes (e.g. Drizzt) would have a BAB matching their levels whereas characters that have dabbled in some less combat-focused classes (e.g. Artemis or Elminster) would have a lower BAB compared to their levels.

Essentially the list was ordered to give an idea of how effective a character would broadly be in a fight (excluding feats, magic, physical difference, etc.) based on their training and experience. So someone like Elminster (to use an outlier) is a level 35 character with the powers of a Chosen, untold magic items and all manner of spells and tricks up his robes. However his centuries of experience and dablling in combat means he is arguably close in bladework as Artor Morlin or Iyraclea but nowhere near his realms-shaking level and status.

That said, (and continuing the above example) as Ed has pointed out before, once we start layering more information on any ranking becomes rather complicated. In a straight fight Artor Morlin is physically faster, stronger and probably tougher than Elminster. Artor uses an unusual double-bladed weapon which can bring many more attacks to bear. Artor has developed his own fighting style by investing in a number of combat feats that will give all sorts of flourishes and honed attacks. Soon our ancient archmage is looking very much of practice and very much outclassed...before we even taken into consideration Artor's magical weapons or vampiric abilities.

The list is a clue to a character's rough combat skill but strips away most of the deciding factors of a true fight.

To quote Ed: "The 'best' swordsman doesn't always win"

Hope it engenders discussion either way

Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms

Edited by - Eli the Tanner on 17 Jun 2017 18:08:45
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Taleras
Seeker

49 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2017 :  02:19:13  Show Profile Send Taleras a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ahhh, that is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the information!!
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