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 Why aren't there many uber-epic level fighters?
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mastermustard
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Posted - 04 May 2017 :  18:46:17  Show Profile Send mastermustard a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Fighters and other non-spellcaster types, I mean.

I haven't followed 5e at all but I recall a 'Hero battle' released in 4e for Drizzt which set him up as a 'level 21 solo skirmisher', which I've been told is a level 27 equivalent. He's got 764 HP so he could probably survive a nuke at ground zero.

Other than Drizzt I don't know of any really high level warriors, and even he doesn't compare to the level 46(?) Larloch or any of the greats that were recently exterminated by Ed.

Is there an explanation for the dearth of extremely high level fighters? And do you know of any others aside from Drizzt?

Brimstone
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Posted - 04 May 2017 :  19:46:20  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I saw a 5E build from Chris(Who MUST be Stopped) Perkins of Drizzt and he was an 8th level fighter.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 04 May 2017 :  20:41:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They're out there; they just get less attention. Magic is sexy, and it's a high-magic setting, so wizards get all the attention. Swinging a sword isn't nearly as interesting, so we don't pay near as much attention to the folks that do that.

Azoun IV was a high-level fighter, though. IIRC, he was originally a 20th-level cavalier. There are a lot of other high-level fighters amongst Ed's various NPCs.

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LordXenophon
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Posted - 04 May 2017 :  21:29:02  Show Profile  Send LordXenophon an AOL message Send LordXenophon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Warriors kill each other for a living, which keeps the numbers down.

Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder.
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Storyteller Hero
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Posted - 04 May 2017 :  21:33:04  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If Alusair Obarskyr were somehow resurrected, she could probably own most other warriors on Toril.

She'd probably retain an advantage of "sixth sense" too, for those who know her current state as of 1490s.






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Edited by - Storyteller Hero on 04 May 2017 21:34:02
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 05 May 2017 :  04:34:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon

Warriors kill each other for a living, which keeps the numbers down.



I don't think we can use that as a valid reason... There are plenty of wizards who specifically go out of their way to find other wizards to kill for their loot. Warriors aren't as well known for casually popping halfway across the continent, attacking someone in their gym, stealing everything not nailed down, and then going back home.

And the requirements for swinging a sword are minimal, even at high level. Spellcasting is an entirely different story. Relatively speaking, high-level warriors should be considerably more common than high-level wizards. There are more warriors to start with, and the entry fee is very, very low.

That's also part of why wizards are more interesting: they are more rare, but can have a dramatically larger impact on the world. So, again -- they get a disproportionate amount of the attention.

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lsls
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Posted - 06 May 2017 :  01:44:33  Show Profile Send lsls a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard

Fighters and other non-spellcaster types, I mean.

And do you know of any others aside from Drizzt?


Abordabe Fighter 30(The Bloodstone Lands)

Eltargrim Irithyl Fighter 25(The Fall of Myth Drannor)

Zaknafein Fighter 24(Menzoberranzan)

Hamsetis Fighter 22(Old Empires)

Naergoth Bladelord Fighter 22(Cult of the Dragon)

Raithspur Fighter 21 (Forgotten Realms Adventures)

Rualadeen Arms Fighter 21(Netheril)

Thydrim Yvarrg Bearkiller Fighter 21(Spellbound)

Entar Silvershield Fighter 21(Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 2E)

I'm lsls not isis :)

Edited by - lsls on 06 May 2017 01:45:28
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Ayrik
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Posted - 06 May 2017 :  02:33:13  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Many big bad spellcasters always hide behind fighters. So that other fighters have to hack their way upstream, past a champion or through a gauntlet, while being blasted by spells.
Although summoned/enchanted/illusory/reanimated creatures, magical force fields, burning walls, and such stuff will do the job just as well.

Fighters have to stand their ground, move forward, or fall back - they bring the fight and they stay with the fight.
Spellcasters have contingencies and deceptions and dimensional tricks - they're only "epic" until fighters get too close to them, then <poof!> their gone before they can get hurt.

Wizards, to my mind, aren't at all as interesting (or fit to be called adventurers) as fighters. Clerics are better, at least they can actually give and take some hits, but once they reach higher levels they become the same sort of cowardly prepared escapist as wizards.

[/Ayrik]
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Gyor
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Posted - 06 May 2017 :  13:34:37  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Their are plenty of epic fighters, it's just that most of then are Gods.
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bloodtide_the_red
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Posted - 06 May 2017 :  17:36:06  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The vast majority of the Realms is focused on low- and mid-level adventurers. So the vast majority of characters don't go much beyond 10th level. Ed Greenwood is really almost the only one that spams epic level characters, mostly spell casters. R.A. Salavadore, for example only has like one high level character, Drizzit, who is just ''barley'' 20th level. Most of his other characters, even when they should be greater are like Bruenor who is often stated as like an 8th level fighter with 'wow, a plus one to hit with an axe''.

It is a bit odd, that over the decides no one who wrote just about anything for the Realms wrote in very much along the lines of high level characters, especially fighters, but that is what happened...
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sleyvas
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Posted - 07 May 2017 :  13:47:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to throw in there as well.... most fighterish and roguish type are dependent on their physical skill.... which after age thirty declines. Wizards depend on intellect and priests depend on faith, neither of which really start declining until the late 50's and 60's (note, I'm not using any game rules there, I'm comparing to real life).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

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Diffan
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Posted - 07 May 2017 :  15:33:20  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd say look through any single 3.5 based Forgotten Realms supplement and you'll likely find MANY high level Fighters. Maybe not Epic in the game sense of Epic Levels but high enough that their presence is epic to the story or region.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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jordanz
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Posted - 09 May 2017 :  02:23:41  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Many big bad spellcasters always hide behind fighters. So that other fighters have to hack their way upstream, past a champion or through a gauntlet, while being blasted by spells.
Although summoned/enchanted/illusory/reanimated creatures, magical force fields, burning walls, and such stuff will do the job just as well.

Fighters have to stand their ground, move forward, or fall back - they bring the fight and they stay with the fight.
Spellcasters have contingencies and deceptions and dimensional tricks - they're only "epic" until fighters get too close to them, then <poof!> their gone before they can get hurt.

Wizards, to my mind, aren't at all as interesting (or fit to be called adventurers) as fighters. Clerics are better, at least they can actually give and take some hits, but once they reach higher levels they become the same sort of cowardly prepared escapist as wizards.



What about Battle Mages like Aoth or Bladesingers?
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jordanz
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Posted - 09 May 2017 :  02:29:05  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

I'd say look through any single 3.5 based Forgotten Realms supplement and you'll likely find MANY high level Fighters. Maybe not Epic in the game sense of Epic Levels but high enough that their presence is epic to the story or region.



Speaking of which...is Captain Fflar still alive? I know he was resurrected a while back. I would think he would be approaching epic level. What's really missing is an epic Paladin of note.
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Irrevrykal
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Posted - 09 May 2017 :  14:34:58  Show Profile Send Irrevrykal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lsls


Entar Silvershield Fighter 21(Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 2E)


Entar Silvershield's co-Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate, Eltan, is a level 22 Fighter in 2E.

Edited by - Irrevrykal on 09 May 2017 14:36:12
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Diffan
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Posted - 09 May 2017 :  18:30:39  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

I'd say look through any single 3.5 based Forgotten Realms supplement and you'll likely find MANY high level Fighters. Maybe not Epic in the game sense of Epic Levels but high enough that their presence is epic to the story or region.



Speaking of which...is Captain Fflar still alive? I know he was resurrected a while back. I would think he would be approaching epic level. What's really missing is an epic Paladin of note.



While not Canon (I believe) some of the Living Forgotten Realms adventures that are centered around Myth Drannor (before the stupid plot of Shade falling on it took over) he was alive and well and ruling beside Coronal Ilsevele Miritar.

As for epic level paladins, in 1372-era there was a Paladin 20 character who was also a Masked Lord of Waterdeep. He was said to go off for a few days of each month into the wilderness of the Western Heartlands to provide a presence of justice and security. All his stats said was (Human, Pal 20 of Tyr).

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Ayrik
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Posted - 11 May 2017 :  08:38:38  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Many big bad spellcasters always hide behind fighters. So that other fighters have to hack their way upstream, past a champion or through a gauntlet, while being blasted by spells.
Although summoned/enchanted/illusory/reanimated creatures, magical force fields, burning walls, and such stuff will do the job just as well.

Fighters have to stand their ground, move forward, or fall back - they bring the fight and they stay with the fight.
Spellcasters have contingencies and deceptions and dimensional tricks - they're only "epic" until fighters get too close to them, then <poof!> their gone before they can get hurt.

Wizards, to my mind, aren't at all as interesting (or fit to be called adventurers) as fighters. Clerics are better, at least they can actually give and take some hits, but once they reach higher levels they become the same sort of cowardly prepared escapist as wizards.

What about Battle Mages like Aoth or Bladesingers?
I did say "most". And Battle Mages or Bladesingers are much better in this regard than most - although their preoccupation with tactical magics tends to make them less "versatile" (slippery and cowardly) than other mages. But even Aoth would fly away when things turned too ugly against him - a fighter doesn't have such options, just fight forward or fight back, inflict damage, soak damage, and hold that heavy shield high. I have more respect for high level fighters than high level spellcasters: the fighters had no choice but to survive and prevail if they wanted to earn their experience points ... and somehow they did.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 11 May 2017 08:39:41
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jordanz
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Posted - 13 May 2017 :  23:41:38  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Many big bad spellcasters always hide behind fighters. So that other fighters have to hack their way upstream, past a champion or through a gauntlet, while being blasted by spells.
Although summoned/enchanted/illusory/reanimated creatures, magical force fields, burning walls, and such stuff will do the job just as well.

Fighters have to stand their ground, move forward, or fall back - they bring the fight and they stay with the fight.
Spellcasters have contingencies and deceptions and dimensional tricks - they're only "epic" until fighters get too close to them, then <poof!> their gone before they can get hurt.

Wizards, to my mind, aren't at all as interesting (or fit to be called adventurers) as fighters. Clerics are better, at least they can actually give and take some hits, but once they reach higher levels they become the same sort of cowardly prepared escapist as wizards.

What about Battle Mages like Aoth or Bladesingers?
I did say "most". And Battle Mages or Bladesingers are much better in this regard than most - although their preoccupation with tactical magics tends to make them less "versatile" (slippery and cowardly) than other mages. But even Aoth would fly away when things turned too ugly against him - a fighter doesn't have such options, just fight forward or fight back, inflict damage, soak damage, and hold that heavy shield high. I have more respect for high level fighters than high level spellcasters: the fighters had no choice but to survive and prevail if they wanted to earn their experience points ... and somehow they did.



True, and at high levels many fighters employ powerful magic items that impact their style of fighting. For example Drizzt uses those magical anklets that allow him to zoom across a battle field. Barbarian types may be the notable exception.

Edited by - jordanz on 14 May 2017 00:20:35
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Ayrik
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Posted - 14 May 2017 :  03:26:48  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair, at high levels wizards employ weapons and fighting styles which aren't magical. They could do so at any level, but only at high levels do they actually have decent odds of hitting things. As often as not, they'll roll to-hit simply because they need to score a "touch" contact for spell(s) to discharge into a target.

Mages have been known to wield weapons and wear armors normally reserved for fighters. It seems fair for fighters to wield a little magic normally reserved for mages.

And there's surely just as many magical daggers/staves/darts as swords/axes/maces. I understand the merits of a staff or dagger which is skillfully wielded, but ("most") fighters would unhesitantly choose a spear over a staff or a sword over a dagger, bigger pointier weapons are just more damaging.

[/Ayrik]
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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  00:39:20  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the real reason is simply that Ed Greenwood likes high-level mages and so he fills his world with them. But, I can also see an argument for the fact that a fighter can only become better by fighting more and more dangerous creatures, where a wizard could conceivably become an archmage without fighting at all.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  03:29:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

I think the real reason is simply that Ed Greenwood likes high-level mages and so he fills his world with them. But, I can also see an argument for the fact that a fighter can only become better by fighting more and more dangerous creatures, where a wizard could conceivably become an archmage without fighting at all.



There are 76 NPCs in the Selected NPCs section of the OGB.

33 of them are wizards or illusionists.

17 of them are 8th level or higher. And of those, one of them is a ghost.

So under a quarter of the NPCs in that boxed set are high-level wizards, and that's being generous with the definition of high-level.

That's hardly filling the world with them.

The fact that this perception exists, though, shows what I said earlier: it's the spellslingers that people pay attention to.

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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  05:40:08  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since when is the OGB the only material that counts? Also, I don't think most people consider 8th level as high-level. I'd say the *bare minimum* is 13th level. If your quibble is whether or not it is only Ed, then sure I'll change it to "the authors".

"Filling the world" refers to the attention that is drawn to them, primarily by the writers of the novels and source material. Ed could say there are 500 15th+ level fighters scattered throughout the realms, but I've never seen anything like that mentioned ever. However, I have seen dozens of 15th+ level wizards mentioned.

And when it comes to very high-level, let's say 18th+, I can't think of more than a dozen characters of any specific class other than wizard.

Edited by - valarmorgulis on 08 Jun 2017 05:49:36
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  09:46:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

Since when is the OGB the only material that counts? Also, I don't think most people consider 8th level as high-level. I'd say the *bare minimum* is 13th level. If your quibble is whether or not it is only Ed, then sure I'll change it to "the authors".

"Filling the world" refers to the attention that is drawn to them, primarily by the writers of the novels and source material. Ed could say there are 500 15th+ level fighters scattered throughout the realms, but I've never seen anything like that mentioned ever. However, I have seen dozens of 15th+ level wizards mentioned.

And when it comes to very high-level, let's say 18th+, I can't think of more than a dozen characters of any specific class other than wizard.



The statement was that Ed filled his world with them. So I found a definitive source penned by Ed to check that claim.

If you limit it to 18th+ level, the OGB only has 4 or 5 NPCs in that category, again out of 76 listed NPCs.

And narrowing your definition to just say those that have attention on them still backs up my statement that wizards get all the attention while other classes get ignored -- it does not prove an absence of those other classes.

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LordXenophon
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Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  14:04:04  Show Profile  Send LordXenophon an AOL message Send LordXenophon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There are 76 NPCs in the Selected NPCs section of the OGB.

33 of them are wizards or illusionists.

17 of them are 8th level or higher. And of those, one of them is a ghost.




First of all, your beginning sample is nearly half.

Second, mastermustard didn't say "high level." He said "uber-epic level."

You're not going to answer his question, by counting 8th level characters. Try your search again, but this time, count only characters over level 20.

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  15:17:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

There are 76 NPCs in the Selected NPCs section of the OGB.

33 of them are wizards or illusionists.

17 of them are 8th level or higher. And of those, one of them is a ghost.




First of all, your beginning sample is nearly half.


Nearly half of the listed PCs are some sort of arcane caster, yes... But that ranges from level 2 to 27.

quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon

Second, mastermustard didn't say "high level." He said "uber-epic level."


The point remains that even by the most generous measure, only 22% of the NPCs met his description, which is hardly filling the world with them.

quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon

You're not going to answer his question, by counting 8th level characters. Try your search again, but this time, count only characters over level 20.



This has already been addressed.

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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 08 Jun 2017 :  17:52:49  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where was it addressed?

I wonder why you are only counting the OGB and not the many other supplements he wrote. IMO, 22% is actually pretty high, but that's neither here nor there.

Would you disagree then that the "authors" (Ed included but not the only one) have filled the world with far more uberepic level mages than other classes?

It seems that there are two assertions that you dispute. One is that Ed populated the Realms with high-level mages. The other is that there are significantly more high-level mages than high-level examples of other classes. As to the first assumption, well it's subjective, but compared to some other very popular game worlds, Ed has certainly added much higher numbers of uberepic mages. As to the second assertion, I think I could list at least 4 15th+ level mages for every 15th+ level fighter.

I don't think you're incorrect in saying that much more attention is paid to the high-level mages than the high-level fighters. But that is also in large part due to Ed constantly giving the mages the spotlight in his books.

Edited by - valarmorgulis on 08 Jun 2017 19:00:19
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