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mastermustard
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
 Posted - 04 May 2017 : 18:46:17
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Fighters and other non-spellcaster types, I mean.
I haven't followed 5e at all but I recall a 'Hero battle' released in 4e for Drizzt which set him up as a 'level 21 solo skirmisher', which I've been told is a level 27 equivalent. He's got 764 HP so he could probably survive a nuke at ground zero.
Other than Drizzt I don't know of any really high level warriors, and even he doesn't compare to the level 46(?) Larloch or any of the greats that were recently exterminated by Ed.
Is there an explanation for the dearth of extremely high level fighters? And do you know of any others aside from Drizzt?
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3285 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 19:46:20
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| I saw a 5E build from Chris(Who MUST be Stopped) Perkins of Drizzt and he was an 8th level fighter. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 20:41:26
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They're out there; they just get less attention. Magic is sexy, and it's a high-magic setting, so wizards get all the attention. Swinging a sword isn't nearly as interesting, so we don't pay near as much attention to the folks that do that.
Azoun IV was a high-level fighter, though. IIRC, he was originally a 20th-level cavalier. There are a lot of other high-level fighters amongst Ed's various NPCs. |
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 21:29:02
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| Warriors kill each other for a living, which keeps the numbers down. |
Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 04:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon
Warriors kill each other for a living, which keeps the numbers down.
I don't think we can use that as a valid reason... There are plenty of wizards who specifically go out of their way to find other wizards to kill for their loot. Warriors aren't as well known for casually popping halfway across the continent, attacking someone in their gym, stealing everything not nailed down, and then going back home.
And the requirements for swinging a sword are minimal, even at high level. Spellcasting is an entirely different story. Relatively speaking, high-level warriors should be considerably more common than high-level wizards. There are more warriors to start with, and the entry fee is very, very low.
That's also part of why wizards are more interesting: they are more rare, but can have a dramatically larger impact on the world. So, again -- they get a disproportionate amount of the attention. |
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lsls
Acolyte
34 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 01:44:33
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quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
Fighters and other non-spellcaster types, I mean.
And do you know of any others aside from Drizzt?
Abordabe Fighter 30(The Bloodstone Lands)
Eltargrim Irithyl Fighter 25(The Fall of Myth Drannor)
Zaknafein Fighter 24(Menzoberranzan)
Hamsetis Fighter 22(Old Empires)
Naergoth Bladelord Fighter 22(Cult of the Dragon)
Raithspur Fighter 21 (Forgotten Realms Adventures)
Rualadeen Arms Fighter 21(Netheril)
Thydrim Yvarrg Bearkiller Fighter 21(Spellbound)
Entar Silvershield Fighter 21(Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 2E) |
Edited by - lsls on 06 May 2017 01:45:28 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 02:33:13
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Many big bad spellcasters always hide behind fighters. So that other fighters have to hack their way upstream, past a champion or through a gauntlet, while being blasted by spells.
Although summoned/enchanted/illusory/reanimated creatures, magical force fields, burning walls, and such stuff will do the job just as well.
Fighters have to stand their ground, move forward, or fall back - they bring the fight and they stay with the fight.
Spellcasters have contingencies and deceptions and dimensional tricks - they're only "epic" until fighters get too close to them, then <poof!> their gone before they can get hurt.
Wizards, to my mind, aren't at all as interesting (or fit to be called adventurers) as fighters. Clerics are better, at least they can actually give and take some hits, but once they reach higher levels they become the same sort of cowardly prepared escapist as wizards. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 13:34:37
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| Their are plenty of epic fighters, it's just that most of then are Gods. |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 17:36:06
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The vast majority of the Realms is focused on low- and mid-level adventurers. So the vast majority of characters don't go much beyond 10th level. Ed Greenwood is really almost the only one that spams epic level characters, mostly spell casters. R.A. Salavadore, for example only has like one high level character, Drizzit, who is just ''barley'' 20th level. Most of his other characters, even when they should be greater are like Bruenor who is often stated as like an 8th level fighter with 'wow, a plus one to hit with an axe''.
It is a bit odd, that over the decides no one who wrote just about anything for the Realms wrote in very much along the lines of high level characters, especially fighters, but that is what happened... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2017 : 13:47:34
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| Just to throw in there as well.... most fighterish and roguish type are dependent on their physical skill.... which after age thirty declines. Wizards depend on intellect and priests depend on faith, neither of which really start declining until the late 50's and 60's (note, I'm not using any game rules there, I'm comparing to real life). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2017 : 15:33:20
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| I'd say look through any single 3.5 based Forgotten Realms supplement and you'll likely find MANY high level Fighters. Maybe not Epic in the game sense of Epic Levels but high enough that their presence is epic to the story or region. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2017 : 02:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Many big bad spellcasters always hide behind fighters. So that other fighters have to hack their way upstream, past a champion or through a gauntlet, while being blasted by spells.
Although summoned/enchanted/illusory/reanimated creatures, magical force fields, burning walls, and such stuff will do the job just as well.
Fighters have to stand their ground, move forward, or fall back - they bring the fight and they stay with the fight.
Spellcasters have contingencies and deceptions and dimensional tricks - they're only "epic" until fighters get too close to them, then <poof!> their gone before they can get hurt.
Wizards, to my mind, aren't at all as interesting (or fit to be called adventurers) as fighters. Clerics are better, at least they can actually give and take some hits, but once they reach higher levels they become the same sort of cowardly prepared escapist as wizards.
What about Battle Mages like Aoth or Bladesingers? |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2017 : 02:29:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I'd say look through any single 3.5 based Forgotten Realms supplement and you'll likely find MANY high level Fighters. Maybe not Epic in the game sense of Epic Levels but high enough that their presence is epic to the story or region.
Speaking of which...is Captain Fflar still alive? I know he was resurrected a while back. I would think he would be approaching epic level. What's really missing is an epic Paladin of note. |
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Irrevrykal
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2017 : 14:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by lsls
Entar Silvershield Fighter 21(Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 2E)
Entar Silvershield's co-Grand Duke of Baldur's Gate, Eltan, is a level 22 Fighter in 2E. |
Edited by - Irrevrykal on 09 May 2017 14:36:12 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2017 : 18:30:39
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I'd say look through any single 3.5 based Forgotten Realms supplement and you'll likely find MANY high level Fighters. Maybe not Epic in the game sense of Epic Levels but high enough that their presence is epic to the story or region.
Speaking of which...is Captain Fflar still alive? I know he was resurrected a while back. I would think he would be approaching epic level. What's really missing is an epic Paladin of note.
While not Canon (I believe) some of the Living Forgotten Realms adventures that are centered around Myth Drannor (before the stupid plot of Shade falling on it took over) he was alive and well and ruling beside Coronal Ilsevele Miritar.
As for epic level paladins, in 1372-era there was a Paladin 20 character who was also a Masked Lord of Waterdeep. He was said to go off for a few days of each month into the wilderness of the Western Heartlands to provide a presence of justice and security. All his stats said was (Human, Pal 20 of Tyr). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2017 : 08:38:38
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Many big bad spellcasters always hide behind fighters. So that other fighters have to hack their way upstream, past a champion or through a gauntlet, while being blasted by spells.
Although summoned/enchanted/illusory/reanimated creatures, magical force fields, burning walls, and such stuff will do the job just as well.
Fighters have to stand their ground, move forward, or fall back - they bring the fight and they stay with the fight.
Spellcasters have contingencies and deceptions and dimensional tricks - they're only "epic" until fighters get too close to them, then <poof!> their gone before they can get hurt.
Wizards, to my mind, aren't at all as interesting (or fit to be called adventurers) as fighters. Clerics are better, at least they can actually give and take some hits, but once they reach higher levels they become the same sort of cowardly prepared escapist as wizards.
What about Battle Mages like Aoth or Bladesingers?
I did say "most". And Battle Mages or Bladesingers are much better in this regard than most - although their preoccupation with tactical magics tends to make them less "versatile" (slippery and cowardly) than other mages. But even Aoth would fly away when things turned too ugly against him - a fighter doesn't have such options, just fight forward or fight back, inflict damage, soak damage, and hold that heavy shield high. I have more respect for high level fighters than high level spellcasters: the fighters had no choice but to survive and prevail if they wanted to earn their experience points ... and somehow they did. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 May 2017 08:39:41 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2017 : 23:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Many big bad spellcasters always hide behind fighters. So that other fighters have to hack their way upstream, past a champion or through a gauntlet, while being blasted by spells.
Although summoned/enchanted/illusory/reanimated creatures, magical force fields, burning walls, and such stuff will do the job just as well.
Fighters have to stand their ground, move forward, or fall back - they bring the fight and they stay with the fight.
Spellcasters have contingencies and deceptions and dimensional tricks - they're only "epic" until fighters get too close to them, then <poof!> their gone before they can get hurt.
Wizards, to my mind, aren't at all as interesting (or fit to be called adventurers) as fighters. Clerics are better, at least they can actually give and take some hits, but once they reach higher levels they become the same sort of cowardly prepared escapist as wizards.
What about Battle Mages like Aoth or Bladesingers?
I did say "most". And Battle Mages or Bladesingers are much better in this regard than most - although their preoccupation with tactical magics tends to make them less "versatile" (slippery and cowardly) than other mages. But even Aoth would fly away when things turned too ugly against him - a fighter doesn't have such options, just fight forward or fight back, inflict damage, soak damage, and hold that heavy shield high. I have more respect for high level fighters than high level spellcasters: the fighters had no choice but to survive and prevail if they wanted to earn their experience points ... and somehow they did.
True, and at high levels many fighters employ powerful magic items that impact their style of fighting. For example Drizzt uses those magical anklets that allow him to zoom across a battle field. Barbarian types may be the notable exception. |
Edited by - jordanz on 14 May 2017 00:20:35 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2017 : 03:26:48
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To be fair, at high levels wizards employ weapons and fighting styles which aren't magical. They could do so at any level, but only at high levels do they actually have decent odds of hitting things. As often as not, they'll roll to-hit simply because they need to score a "touch" contact for spell(s) to discharge into a target.
Mages have been known to wield weapons and wear armors normally reserved for fighters. It seems fair for fighters to wield a little magic normally reserved for mages.
And there's surely just as many magical daggers/staves/darts as swords/axes/maces. I understand the merits of a staff or dagger which is skillfully wielded, but ("most") fighters would unhesitantly choose a spear over a staff or a sword over a dagger, bigger pointier weapons are just more damaging. |
[/Ayrik] |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2017 : 00:39:20
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| I think the real reason is simply that Ed Greenwood likes high-level mages and so he fills his world with them. But, I can also see an argument for the fact that a fighter can only become better by fighting more and more dangerous creatures, where a wizard could conceivably become an archmage without fighting at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2017 : 03:29:23
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
I think the real reason is simply that Ed Greenwood likes high-level mages and so he fills his world with them. But, I can also see an argument for the fact that a fighter can only become better by fighting more and more dangerous creatures, where a wizard could conceivably become an archmage without fighting at all.
There are 76 NPCs in the Selected NPCs section of the OGB.
33 of them are wizards or illusionists.
17 of them are 8th level or higher. And of those, one of them is a ghost.
So under a quarter of the NPCs in that boxed set are high-level wizards, and that's being generous with the definition of high-level.
That's hardly filling the world with them.
The fact that this perception exists, though, shows what I said earlier: it's the spellslingers that people pay attention to. |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2017 : 05:40:08
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Since when is the OGB the only material that counts? Also, I don't think most people consider 8th level as high-level. I'd say the *bare minimum* is 13th level. If your quibble is whether or not it is only Ed, then sure I'll change it to "the authors".
"Filling the world" refers to the attention that is drawn to them, primarily by the writers of the novels and source material. Ed could say there are 500 15th+ level fighters scattered throughout the realms, but I've never seen anything like that mentioned ever. However, I have seen dozens of 15th+ level wizards mentioned.
And when it comes to very high-level, let's say 18th+, I can't think of more than a dozen characters of any specific class other than wizard. |
Edited by - valarmorgulis on 08 Jun 2017 05:49:36 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2017 : 09:46:08
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Since when is the OGB the only material that counts? Also, I don't think most people consider 8th level as high-level. I'd say the *bare minimum* is 13th level. If your quibble is whether or not it is only Ed, then sure I'll change it to "the authors".
"Filling the world" refers to the attention that is drawn to them, primarily by the writers of the novels and source material. Ed could say there are 500 15th+ level fighters scattered throughout the realms, but I've never seen anything like that mentioned ever. However, I have seen dozens of 15th+ level wizards mentioned.
And when it comes to very high-level, let's say 18th+, I can't think of more than a dozen characters of any specific class other than wizard.
The statement was that Ed filled his world with them. So I found a definitive source penned by Ed to check that claim.
If you limit it to 18th+ level, the OGB only has 4 or 5 NPCs in that category, again out of 76 listed NPCs.
And narrowing your definition to just say those that have attention on them still backs up my statement that wizards get all the attention while other classes get ignored -- it does not prove an absence of those other classes. |
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2017 : 14:04:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are 76 NPCs in the Selected NPCs section of the OGB.
33 of them are wizards or illusionists.
17 of them are 8th level or higher. And of those, one of them is a ghost.
First of all, your beginning sample is nearly half.
Second, mastermustard didn't say "high level." He said "uber-epic level."
You're not going to answer his question, by counting 8th level characters. Try your search again, but this time, count only characters over level 20. |
Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2017 : 15:17:51
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quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are 76 NPCs in the Selected NPCs section of the OGB.
33 of them are wizards or illusionists.
17 of them are 8th level or higher. And of those, one of them is a ghost.
First of all, your beginning sample is nearly half.
Nearly half of the listed PCs are some sort of arcane caster, yes... But that ranges from level 2 to 27.
quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon
Second, mastermustard didn't say "high level." He said "uber-epic level."
The point remains that even by the most generous measure, only 22% of the NPCs met his description, which is hardly filling the world with them.
quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon
You're not going to answer his question, by counting 8th level characters. Try your search again, but this time, count only characters over level 20.
This has already been addressed. |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2017 : 17:52:49
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Where was it addressed?
I wonder why you are only counting the OGB and not the many other supplements he wrote. IMO, 22% is actually pretty high, but that's neither here nor there.
Would you disagree then that the "authors" (Ed included but not the only one) have filled the world with far more uberepic level mages than other classes?
It seems that there are two assertions that you dispute. One is that Ed populated the Realms with high-level mages. The other is that there are significantly more high-level mages than high-level examples of other classes. As to the first assumption, well it's subjective, but compared to some other very popular game worlds, Ed has certainly added much higher numbers of uberepic mages. As to the second assertion, I think I could list at least 4 15th+ level mages for every 15th+ level fighter.
I don't think you're incorrect in saying that much more attention is paid to the high-level mages than the high-level fighters. But that is also in large part due to Ed constantly giving the mages the spotlight in his books.
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Edited by - valarmorgulis on 08 Jun 2017 19:00:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2017 : 19:01:15
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I dispute the assertion that "Ed Greenwood likes high-level mages and so he fills his world with them," emphasis mine.
My 22% calculation is reached only by using a very generous definition of high-level (8th level and above). If you move the bar to say 15th or 20th level, the percentage drops dramatically.
Therefore, I have to disagree that Ed "fills" the world with them -- they are clearly only a small percentage.
And Ed has stated, more than once, that writing novels about high-level mages wasn't his choice: that was dictated to him by TSR/WotC. Hell, who was the first Realms character? Mirt. A non-wizard.
So why would they want the focus to be on high-level spellslingers? Because, as I said earlier, they are sexier. That's what people want to read about.
Perhaps there are more high-level wizards detailed than high-level fighters... But in a setting with millions of people, of which we might be able to name 1%, we can't assume that high-level fighters don't exist simply because they aren't named. You might as well say there are almost no farmers in the Realms because so few are named.
Fighters and other classes aren't rarely mentioned because -- again -- the wizards are the ones that command attention. They have abilities that can't be replicated in the real world, unlike most other classes*. A high-level wizard can have much more of an impact on the world than other character classes, as well. And a wizard can do a heck of a lot with just a single word or gesture -- which again sets them apart from other classes.
And that is why we see wizards all the time: people want to see them, people find them more interesting, and WotC and TSR before them have always catered to that demand.
*One of a cleric's biggest draws is their healing ability, but while modern medicine may be slower, it can offer a lot of the same healing. Therefore, this isn't as interesting to people as a wizard calling forth the very elements to level a city. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Jun 2017 19:02:16 |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2017 : 19:14:54
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I would think that the presence of 15th+ level fighters would be something that should be mentioned in source material. If they exist but are never referenced anywhere, they effectively don't exist in terms of perception. So, sure, it's possible that there are 10x as many high-level fighters as high-level wizards, but if only the high-level wizards are mentioned then it might as well just be a world of high-level wizards.
Anyways, we seem to be going in circles here so I'm bowing out of the conversation.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2017 : 23:46:14
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A large number of high-level fighters were named in the 2E FRA sourcebook. The "Cities of the Heartlands" section is filled with "Armed Forces" entries which collectively describe vast armies of fighters spanning the Heartlands ("a garrison of 3000 Purple Dragons [F0 to F4], commanded by a Warden of the Port [LG hm F14]", "6000 veteran soldiers, led by a Battlemaster [LN hm F16]", etc). The focus of these "Armed Forces" entries is mainly raw numbers and combat gear: it's obviously just a quick summary of military force. The "Notable Mages", "Notable Churches", and "Important Characters" entries typically fill the other half of each page with a dozen or so high-level characters, and while there are a few more mighty warriors the majority are spectacularly accomplished wizards.
I haven't bothered to do the counting, but it's obvious there's quite a lot of high-level fighters - it seems like every settlement larger than a village has some sort of militia, standing army, mercenary force, or (unwanted) foreign garrison - and it seems like there's no shortage of high-level warriors available to lead them. Not to mention all the high-level warriors who tend to form the actual government (ruling lords, etc) of the city. Every settlement also has a handful of (in)famous wizard celebrities. But I think it's evident there's far more warriors than mages at highest levels.
The warriors are just lumped within armies. This many men wear plate, that many wear chain, this many swordsmen, that many archers, this many spearmen, that many cavalry, etc etc. They're all specially trained for ship-to-ship boarding skirmishes or hobbit hole hunting or whatever. They're led by Sir Loyne of Beefe, described as an oversized hamburger-eating martinet [LN hm F18], along with his two senior Beefcakes [LN hm F12] and his two junior Beefpatties [LN F9], etc. They're basically written as boring combat encounters. They're disposable, they're replaceable, they're uninteresting. They're invariably male, Lawful-aligned, and almost entirely interchangeable.
The wizards are each given at least one paragraph. Magical specialties. Magical items. Signature spells, special magical talents, known for certain showy or deadly things, feared magical dueller, etc etc. They're celebrities, they're showy and flamboyant, or they're potent and unapproachable, they live in a higher-level world than the faceless masses. And it's often implied that they can defeat entire armies.
People don't care much about armies clashing unless it's happening right on their doorstep. A battle between two mighty heaving, sweating, crushing, cursing champion fighters is interesting for a while, but quickly forgotten. Rumours and accounts and embellishments about a wizard duel can excitedly circulate across half the Heartlands, being told and retold for years. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Jun 2017 23:48:34 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2017 : 00:41:48
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| Another reason is probably the game itself. Ed really got going with FR with D&D (I know he started beforehand, but the two are inextricably linked). In 1E and even 2E, high level wizards were simply way more powerful than any other class and fighters were far weaker. Balance between the classes didn't really come into vogue until 3E and improved with 4E and is probably about the same in 5E (maybe gotten a little worse). Plus high level wizards could do all sorts of amazing magical things, which high level fighters especially in 1e and 2e couldn't (no feats, no action surge, etc.) -- pretty much the only thing they could do was attack multiple level 1 creatures with one hit, cool, but nothing compared to a wish, prismatic sphere, meteor swarm, or time stop. |
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2017 : 14:26:49
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A level 20 Fighter will probably survive at least the first Meteor Swarm, probably the second or third. He can draw a Dragon's fire away from the rest of the party and live to brag about it. He can combine the powers of a Girdle of Giant Strength, Gauntlets of Ogre Power and a Hammer of Thunderbolts, none of which Wizards are allowed to use. He has a decent chance of hitting AC -10 on the first try. His sword is more likely to work against high level characters than are the Wizard's spells. He has access to many of the same high-level magics as the Wizard, through various enchanted items, such as a Ring of 3 Wishes, Scrolls of Protection, special powers of his sword, Helms of Brilliance, Necklaces of Missiles, Wands of Magic Missiles and Paralysis, etc. He can wear a Ring of Spell Turning, without fear of spell reverberation, because he doesn't need to use spells. As mentioned before, high level fighters can raise armies. Most importantly, while the Wizard will eventually run out of spells, the Fighter will never run out of sword swings.
I have never had any trouble balancing high level fighters with high level wizards, in 2e.
Come to think of it, the lack of uber-epic level fighters could be due to an aversion to including these kinds of magic items in campaigns.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
They're led by Sir Loyne of Beefe
I thought Sir Loyne of Angus was the only Loyne to be knighted. |
Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder. |
Edited by - LordXenophon on 09 Jun 2017 14:28:43 |
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Why aren't there many uber-epic level fighters?
