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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
 Posted - 03 May 2017 : 06:30:03
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As a creative exercise, if you had to give a brief synopsis or tell the short story of an event that occurred in the time of the Second Sundering, what would it be?
Can be as long or as short as you like - even a sentence can tell an interesting story.
This is a period where the gods were very active on Toril (if only through their mortal servants) for a short time, but we have very few stories about it, and I thought it would be interesting to see what people here say.
The Second Sundering is still an event we know little about, and largely revolves around the gods becoming quite active on Toril through their Chosen from 1482-1489, with activity peaking around 1485-1486. In the background, Ao appears to be restructuring the way the gods operate on Toril, resulting in them going silent in 1488 before returning as more distant in 1489.
During the active period, the gods had hundreds of Chosen Toril-wide according to Ed. These may factor into your story, or they may not. If they are, there power could be as tiny as having darkvision as a Chosen of Amaunator (example taken from LotCS), or more significant such as the powers of the Chosen of Asmodeus in the Adversary.
A brief summary of the Second Sundering, mostly clipped from the Sword Coast Adventurers' Guide, to give people an idea that are out of the loop. The excellent thread of Lirdolin has more details.
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1479: Although the SCAG argues that the first indication of "new turmoil" is in 1482, I would argue that the first signs come with the partial return of Mystra in 1479, as seen in the Sage of Shadowdale trilogy. In The Companions, characters experience the change, and are unsure of what to make of it. Mystra likely does not fully return and start answering prayers until the end of the Herald in 1487. However, magic does noticeably change for all users in 1479 - though it continues to operate for users both new and old, it operates in the way it did before the Spellplague, bringing some to suspect the Weave has returned.
1482: The return of Bhaal amidst much chaos in Baldur's Gate marks the first major turmoil of the Sundering.
1484: Strange calamities begin to occur, including a plague of locusts in Amn, an earthquake in Iriaebor, and droughts in southern lands as the sea receded in some areas. Sakkors falls on the Maelstrom at Ordulin, and cracks begin to be seen in the darkened Sembian sky.
1485: At least by 1485, people claiming to be "Chosen" of the gods begin to appear - such as a Chosen of Auril in Ten Towns. Conflict also reigns in many parts of the world - the dwarves against the orcs in the North, and Cormyr-Sembia-Netheril-Dalelands in the Heartlands. As the drought in the south deepens, the Great Rain begins to fall over the Sea of Fallen Stars, occuring during 1485-1486.
1486: The dwarven and the Cormyrean wars come to an end, and the Great Rain stops falling. The various Harper groups around Faerun begin to come together once more to face the great threat of Shade, after discovering the Shadovar have been collecting Chosen from across Toril - and that each individual group can do little about it.
1487: Abeir and Toril begin to drift apart once more. Earthquakes and volcanic explosions occur across the globe, as if the whole world is convulsing. Rumors spread of chasms suddenly vanishing that had suddenly appeared in the Spellplague, and of known destinations becoming farther away from each other, as if the world had quietly added miles of wilderness to the distance between them. Word begins to arrive that lost, Lantan, Evermeet, Halruua, and Nimbral have returned. Shade launches its gambit against Myth Drannor, but the gambit fails, and the Shades are mostly destroyed with survivors scattering.
1488: As 1487 closes into 1488, the stars seem to hang motionless, and the winter lasts longer than any on record. The gods go silent to their worshipers, the presence of their Chosen being one of the few reminders of their influence. The remainder of the Netherese forces battle the Bedine, and unwittingly awaken a hive of phaerimm who begin draining the Anauroch once more.
1489: By this time, the deities have stopped interfering with the world through their Chosen. By Flamerule, the gods return and bless their worshipers once more, but they are more distant than before, and some gods return that had been though gone for over a century.
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 03 May 2017 07:37:48
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 06:56:23
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To start things off, here's something from me.
Snakes in the Land of Light
Backdrop: In 1484, Elturgard is a realm in the Western Heartlands ruled by the paladins and priests of Torm, with help from the clergy of Amaunator. Najara is ruled by the spirit naga Jarant. The very existence of his realm was questioned by many until 1480, when he sent ambassadors out to various lands to assert Najara's sovereignty and warn against interference in Najaran affairs. Since then Najara has returned to a policy of silence, but it is growing more powerful every year.
Story: In 1484, the 28 year old Rhendil Thent is one of the most capable and renowned members of Elturel's Hellriders, and the granddaughter of the famed Tamal Thent. She is a devout follower of the teachings of the god Tyr, thought to have died a century ago. In Alturiak, Rhendil begins to dream of the light of the Companion becoming a great shadow, the event of which is sounded by a gong and then a warhammer striking against steel. She has the sense that it is Tyr somehow speaking to her, warning her of some calamity that is to befall Elturgard. She speaks to the High Observer of Elturgard, Thavus Kreeg, who dismisses her claims of the returned god, but she spreads the word across the land despite him. She preaches a message of readiness, a warning that Elturgard has become so comfortable in the light of the Companion that it thinks itself above the threat of darkness.
Rhendil's followers grow in number, as do the number of people that believe in a returned Tyr. In the middle of 1485, a rumour begins to spread amongst the city that the High Observer, a priest of Torm, can no longer cast divine spells. The High Observer never publicly disproves the rumour, and Rhendil comes to suspect that he has fallen and no longer has the favour of Torm, and seeks to prove it. Before Rhendil was born, people had accused Kreeg of being involved with her grandmother's disappearance, as well as the dark history of Fort Morninglord. However, the bureaucracy of Elturel make investigating him difficult for her, and the truth about Thavus remains elusive throughout all her efforts. Rhendil nevertheless swears to find out if Kreeg had a hand in her mother's death, and then to pursue justice no matter the cost.
In 1486, Thavus becomes frustrated with Rhendil's persistent efforts to investigate him, and orders her to oversee Fort Tamal near Boareskyr Bridge - a posting many think is punishment, for it is far from the capital. It also happens to be near where her famed grandmother, Tamal Thent - once an opponent of Thavus for the role of High Observer - went missing forty years ago. Rhendil manages to pick up the long cold trail left by her grandmother into the secretive realm of Najara. There she is ambushed by the yuan-ti, but they do not kill her - instead, they inform her that Thavus Kreeg had paid Najarans well to ambush and kill Tamal many years ago.
They also reveal that Thavus had paid them to kill her too, and that they had an interest in doing so - Kreeg had been quietly making sure that Elturgard never posed too much of a hindrance to the silent rise of Najara, by focusing the citizens on other threats. When Rhendil demanded further proof of Kreeg's treachery, the yuan-ti gladly revealed that they had given him a magical ring that made his lies imperceptible to others - a ring that on the inside is inscribed with words in the yuan-ti tongue. They also returned to her her grandmother's holy symbol, proof that she had died as they said. Rhendil did not trust the Najarans, but when they gave her back her grandmother's pendant, she knew their story must be at least partially true. Kreeg's open dislike for her grandmother had been famous. The motivations of the yuan-ti for revealing all this were unclear to her, but one thing was very clear - Thavus Kreeg was quite likely a traitor, and he needed to be confronted.
Rhendil rode furiously back to Fort Tamal, rallied the thirty paladins and warriors there to her cause, and began to ride south to Elturel. There she hoped to publicly confront Kreeg and discover the truth of the matter. However, on the Trade Way west of the Trielta Hills, she is confronted by none other than Thavus Kreeg himself, High Observer of Elturgard, and a company of over a hundred paladins and warriors. Kreeg proclaims loudly that his informers in Boareskyr Bridge saw her speaking with Najaran yuan-ti, and that she is accused of being a traitor to Elturgard. Rhendil, spotting the ring the Najarans had spoke of on Kreeg's hand, fitting their description exactly, accuses him of having her mother murdered and conspiring with Najara. When Kreeg calls for a truth-testing for them both, Rhendil refuses, knowing the ring would cover Kreeg's lies - and along with her retinue, charges, sure of the justice of her actions and that she has Tyr's blessing.
The battle is bloody and vicious, with Kreeg's forces outnumbering Rhendil's three to one. However, the blessing of Tyr does not follow Rhendil as she believed it would, and her fellow warriors fall one after another. After what feels like a lifetime of fighting, Rhendil's forces are reduced to a handful of men and women. And that is when Najara strikes. From the Trielta Hills comes a rain of arrows thundering out of the sky, peppering the forces of both sides. As both forces of Elturgardians desperately run for cover in a nearby tree-line, Rhendil manages to isolate Kreeg, who had managed to stay near the back of his line throughout the fighting. She lays him flat with one punch and rips the Najaran ring from his finger.
But the ring has no Najaran lettering. It is enchanted - but with evocation magic: the ability to create fireballs. In horror, she realises what she has wrought in her blind attempt to find justice. Unable to fathom the extent of what has happened, she acts on instinct, grabbing the High Observer and running for the tree line.
Safe in the trees, Kreeg's second in command, a paladin of Torm named Arman, rounds up Rhendil's "traitors" and ties them up as the yuan-ti slowly surround them in the small wood. Rhendil bursts in at the last second with a semi-conscious Kreeg and tells them of her mistake, offering up her life as justice for her actions. However, she asks for one last chance to make things right. After she is truth-tested, Arman grants her wish and releases her men - and as he does so, the yuan-ti close in on them. As Arman's remaining fighters fight back desperately, Rhendil bursts into the yuan-ti line without regard for her own life, and like the living incarnation of fury she cuts into them. Her skill is great, but it is no match for their numbers, and for every yuan-ti she slays, she gains another injury. Scratches on her armour become scimitar cuts on her arms, slashes on her face. But somehow, Rhendil does not feel any pain. She is not ignoring it, not fighting it - there is no pain, and the wounds are never quite deep enough to stop her. In the relentless swinging of her blade, Rhendil does not have time to consider any of this - she has become the living incarnation of terrible justice.
When the fighting stops, all the yuan-ti are dead, and the High Observer and a few bloodied paladins are all that are left standing. Rhendil, covered in wounds, looks back to the now standing Thavus Kreeg, himself weary from the fighting. She smiles at him sadly and apologetically, before falling to the ground, dead. As she falls, all those standing hear the sound of a gong, followed by the sound of a warhammer striking against steel. Moving over to her body, Thavus weaves a divine spell, asking for the blessing of Torm to return her to life. Although Torm grants his prayer, Rhendil is unwilling to return, having found peace in the afterlife. The High Observer closes Rhendil's eyelids and commends her soul to Tyr, the risen god of justice.
In the days following the battle, the High Observer and his retinue return to Elturel, and word quickly spreads of the attempt on Elturgardian lives by the yuan-ti of Najara. Thavus Kreeg preaches to the city of the bold work and sacrifice of Rhendil, telling the public that the only reason any of them survived the Najaran plot was because of her valiant pursuit of justice, which, although at times misguided, led to her receiving the blessing of Tyr himself - a blessing that allowed her to save his life. The High Observer subsequently opens up the ranks of the Companions of Elturgard to any paladin willing to serve the nation - be it Tyr, Torm, Amaunator, or any other god whose followers wish Elturgard to be a realm of light and good. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 03 May 2017 07:06:37 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 13:57:19
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| Hmmm, this could be fun. Just replying so I can think on this and do something later. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 16:45:11
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In the beginning: Gary Gygax & Dave Arneson create D&D
Let there be light!: TSR publishes D&D rules
The world is born: AD&D is published and Greyhawk is formed out of the ether
The Known World: The first gods - OD&D fans - manage to keep it alive through Mystara
2e; The Age of Enlightenment: TSR buys The Forgotten Realms off of Ed Greenwood and gobs of material are published - the world enters a new 'Golden Age'
3e; The age of endless splats: WotC purchases/saves TSR from certain doom and publishes 3e, harkening a new age of even more information (fans are broke, yet happy)
4e, The Age of Despair: Hasbro seizes WotC, but clever designers build a back door called 'OGL' and escape. Sauron gets the One Ring, Voldemort marries Hermione, and Skeletor finally 'outs' Prince Adam. The universe is in turmoil as worlds are systematically destroyed, or turned in mockeries of the majestic settings they once were.
5e, Dawn of a New Age of Uncertainty. 'The Gods' have rolled back time (sort of), and things are once again looking up. Sure, just about everyone we cared about is dead (including ALL our PCs, but HEY, the novel characters are still alive with their shiny, golden plot-armor, and that's a thing right there). The 'ebil ones' are thoroughly chastised and have learned humility (although the Elder Elemental Eye - once known as 'Hasbro' - is still lurking in the background). What will a new 'Golden Age' mean for our heroes? Lots of adventure! Also, lots LESS of disposable income for us. This is sometimes referred to as the 'Second Sundering', as fans are separated from large swaths of their cash for a second time.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 May 2017 16:49:16 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 21:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Voldemort marries Hermione,
Hmmmm, I saw a movie the other day where she was looking like she was going to "get it on" with a bugbear looking fellow. Who knew Hermione liked to get her freak on.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 22:40:05
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I just think it would be really cool if we came up with a few stories to fill gaps in the lore. Going through the old Candlekeep Compendiums had me thinking about a quote from The Wire:
quote:
We used to make shit in this country, build shit. Now we just put our hand in the next guy's pocket.
And then I thought about how awesome it would be if Candlekeep could get together and write some of the Realms's missing chapters. Build something of our own like the Compendiums used to.
Admittedly my piece ended up being a bit longer than I intended, but it was just something I came up with after writing the first post, and I'm sure there's plenty of people here who could contribute. Even if other people's ideas only consist of a sentence or two, if we got 20 members to submit short ideas, that's a whole lot of interesting tales to fill gaps, and some great history hooks for DMs. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 01:00:59
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We've tried to get that restarted before, but the haziness of 4e's GSL was nothing like 3e's OGL, and everyone was afraid that by doing 'old lore' (pieces set in a time other the 4e era) could be construed as as a violation of the VERY limited 'license' (and I use that term very loosely - only an idiot would have signed that heinously one-sided agreement). Basically, we couldn't 'mix old with new', and no one really wanted to do 'new', so it never got restarted. 4e killed the CK Compendiums.
HOWEVER, with 5e here and this new DMs guild thing - why couldn't we publish a volume ON THAT under the header of 'Candlekeep', with a 'pay what you want' price, and have all proceeds go to the upkeep (and maybe update?) of this site? It might be the way to go. Maybe even revisit the old ones and update them for 5e (I wouldn't mind going back in and tweaking the names in my article, for instance). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 01:07:45
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You know, and for me this is sad to say, I've finally got off the bus. I'm not interested in writing for a 5E Realms. I'm more than happy to write pre-Sundering lore or general stuff that applies across all editions. My focus has always been history and there are still so many gaps to fill from earlier editions - which due to a better "lore skeleton" around them, are somewhat easier to address - that the thought of trying to write coherently in the 5E Realms is in the "too hard basket for me". It's akin to trying to write about "Gondolin" after reading the Hobbit. So without trying to sound curmudgeonly (sp?),I'm happy to see what people come up with. I admire their creativity.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 01:11:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We've tried to get that restarted before, but the haziness of 4e's GSL was nothing like 3e's OGL, and everyone was afraid that by doing 'old lore' (pieces set in a time other the 4e era) could be construed as as a violation of the VERY limited 'license' (and I use that term very loosely - only an idiot would have signed that heinously one-sided agreement). Basically, we couldn't 'mix old with new', and no one really wanted to do 'new', so it never got restarted. 4e killed the CK Compendiums.
HOWEVER, with 5e here and this new DMs guild thing - why couldn't we publish a volume ON THAT under the header of 'Candlekeep', with a 'pay what you want' price, and have all proceeds go to the upkeep (and maybe update?) of this site? It might be the way to go. Maybe even revisit the old ones and update them for 5e (I wouldn't mind going back in and tweaking the names in my article, for instance).
I was thinking the same thing, re: having Alaundo upload it as a work of Candlekeep to DM's Guild, with him keeping all the profits for site maintenance (and maybe even site promotion, is such a thing is desired). My personal experience with DM's Guild has garnered a few hundred dollars for myself since I posted my first thing around July last year - not anything amazing, but I imagine such funds couldn't hurt the site.
The DM's Guild is an opportunity to spread FR knowledge like never before, and it would be awesome if Candlekeep was a part of that.
Though I'd settle for people just getting some creative juices flowing. Still gearing up for my next campaign, and despite the Sundering novel series there's still swathes of blank history to be written. I'd argue that the scribes of Candlekeep are as qualified as any to write that history. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 01:21:02
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
You know, and for me this is sad to say, I've finally got off the bus. I'm not interested in writing for a 5E Realms. I'm more than happy to write pre-Sundering lore or general stuff that applies across all editions. My focus has always been history and there are still so many gaps to fill from earlier editions - which due to a better "lore skeleton" around them, are somewhat easier to address - that the thought of trying to write coherently in the 5E Realms is in the "too hard basket for me".
That's really very sad to hear George, though I get the sentiment - the 5e Realms doesn't really have the solid base of history the pre-Spellplague Realms had. Still, I had held out hope that you would be the Chosen One, the loremaster who knew all the lore, from every edition! Alas, perhaps it is too much for anyone to keep up with over so much time and so many drastic changes. I just really hope Ed is keeping up, and will continue to advise and contribute to the Realms as it goes forward.
Though, we could always do a project on the "lost century" instead of the Sundering - fill the gap that separates the old grognards from the young blood! Too ambitious, they said, it can't be done, they said! One Candlekeep scribe per region, witing about one decade per month, whilst sharing ideas here so we can coordinate large scale changes and events together. If we got 20 scribes together, we could have a substantial history done in a year! |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 04 May 2017 01:23:12 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 02:03:17
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
You know, and for me this is sad to say, I've finally got off the bus. I'm not interested in writing for a 5E Realms. I'm more than happy to write pre-Sundering lore or general stuff that applies across all editions. My focus has always been history and there are still so many gaps to fill from earlier editions - which due to a better "lore skeleton" around them, are somewhat easier to address - that the thought of trying to write coherently in the 5E Realms is in the "too hard basket for me". It's akin to trying to write about "Gondolin" after reading the Hobbit. So without trying to sound curmudgeonly (sp?),I'm happy to see what people come up with. I admire their creativity.
-- George Krashos
But I wasn't thinking 'in the 5e era', I meant just rules-wise we could update them (they were rules-lite or rules-neutral anyway). For new compendiums, people would write in any era they wanted, but any rules attached to the articles would have to be done for 5e (so if you didn't have any rules, then no worries).
In other words, they wouldn't really be much different then what we did before - you can write all the 'history pieces' you want. In fact, if we did focused books (regional or whatever), then we could do some really clever stuff: ie., YOU could do a piece about Impilturran 'dungeons' - 'places of mystery' from Impiltur's past, and all the history that goes with that.
Then someone else who knows 5e rules could write-up one of those dungeons. I could do a map showing the locations of said dungeons, and maybe even a dungeon map itself. That sort of thing - everyone does what they want, and the whole things comes off as '5e', even though you could easily use that lore in a different edition (because, after all, if the dungeon isn't less than a century old, people could still use it in any published era). I backwards-engineered a bunch of '5e' locales that way - adventure sites that would have been there pre-Spellplague.
I can totally see a CKC entitled 'Impiltur and the Vast' for our very first project... tell me you'd just walk away from that? 
You wouldn't want us to get it 'wrong', would you? 
{Yes, I am aware that I am evil... my ex has been telling me for years...} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 May 2017 02:24:01 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 02:25:08
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| I think I was a fiend in another life... or maybe that was just the 80's... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 08:33:45
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
You know, and for me this is sad to say, I've finally got off the bus. I'm not interested in writing for a 5E Realms. I'm more than happy to write pre-Sundering lore or general stuff that applies across all editions. My focus has always been history and there are still so many gaps to fill from earlier editions - which due to a better "lore skeleton" around them, are somewhat easier to address - that the thought of trying to write coherently in the 5E Realms is in the "too hard basket for me".
That's really very sad to hear George, though I get the sentiment - the 5e Realms doesn't really have the solid base of history the pre-Spellplague Realms had. Still, I had held out hope that you would be the Chosen One, the loremaster who knew all the lore, from every edition! Alas, perhaps it is too much for anyone to keep up with over so much time and so many drastic changes. I just really hope Ed is keeping up, and will continue to advise and contribute to the Realms as it goes forward.
Though, we could always do a project on the "lost century" instead of the Sundering - fill the gap that separates the old grognards from the young blood! Too ambitious, they said, it can't be done, they said! One Candlekeep scribe per region, witing about one decade per month, whilst sharing ideas here so we can coordinate large scale changes and events together. If we got 20 scribes together, we could have a substantial history done in a year!
I already proposed this idea for redoing the original realms timeline when 5e was just some bean counter's horrible nightmare.
Maybe it was my involvement that put people off but it had less than a handful of people interested. Im guessing that 5e realms wont get half as many interests.
As George said, creating good quality lore is hard enough. Creating it with no background detail to bed it into will require a genius the likes of Ed Greenwood or Tolkien.
Good luck. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 08:44:41
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Even if other people's ideas only consist of a sentence or two, if we got 20 members to submit short ideas, that's a whole lot of interesting tales to fill gaps, and some great history hooks for DMs.
I'm either off-topic or adding another dimension, but a while back a few scribes challenged me with their constructive optimism in spite of WotC's abuses (Jeremy), dogged hamstered refusal to see things my way (Wooly), and refreshing snarkery (Markus). Over time I think my viewpoint shifted a bit, and I found something resembling a positive attitude. 
What I'm getting at is that yes we can fill in the missing years, but we can also right the wrongs.
For example, I've ranted before about the Time of Troubles. A significant percentage of the current player base didn't play 2e and don't care about 1358, I get that. I care about it, and I've (finally) realized that instead of getting amped up about it, I can just rewrite it the way I think it should have gone. Then I don't have to say "The TOT didn't happen in my Realms." I can instead say "It turned out a little differently in this campaign."
And in terms of the players' immersion in the game, there's a huge difference between those statements. If an RSE didn't happen, they're left to wonder what else didn't happen, or what happened instead, or whether I'm just calling it FR when in fact it's a totally different world. If it happened, but a little differently, then it's just a parallel universe sort of thing, where 99% of the world is the same as what they've read in the novels or experienced with other DMs.
The reason I'm on about it here is that filling in the missing history is essentially the same idea... righting a wrong. We won't all agree about what happened in each year, and we have to be okay with that. I like the idea of stories because other people like stories, and because the more of them we can generate, develop, and link, the more we can weave the tapestry back together.
The TOT redo is huge and barely begun, so in the meantime I'll use this thread as motivation to finish my Leira-and-Halaster-are-not-so-easily-extinguished script.
As far as something I'd like to see, but don't have the knowledge to do myself, I'd like to see smoothing of the edges between 4e and 5e. Where did Halruaa, Lantan, Luiren, Nimbral, etc go? Unther and part of Chessenta went to Abeir... what happened there, how did it possibly alter the culture? How they were brought back to Faerun is less important. What impacts are their experiences having now that they're back in Faerun? Each of those lands should have a different story, but they all need to be believable. (Within the context of magic and gods, of course, but there is still such a thing as "not believable.")
Anyway, that's my plan & thoughts. Also looking forward to seeing what others want/suggest. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 04 May 2017 08:51:30 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 09:04:43
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
That's really very sad to hear George, though I get the sentiment - the 5e Realms doesn't really have the solid base of history the pre-Spellplague Realms had. Still, I had held out hope that you would be the Chosen One, the loremaster who knew all the lore, from every edition! Alas, perhaps it is too much for anyone to keep up with over so much time and so many drastic changes. I just really hope Ed is keeping up, and will continue to advise and contribute to the Realms as it goes forward.
I lost track of the later lore with the 4E novel releases. I've got most of the 5E "FR" releases - but there is no real lore in them other than an update on people and places in a very basic manner. As for being THE loremaster ... that's a tough job. I've done better over the years riding shotgun and throwing in a few thoughts here and there to the real creative types like Eric and Steven (Ed has never needed my help, although I note that he does keep track of my musings!). My own stuff grows organically in my head and on my PC hard drive. Some will see the light of day, some won't. The stuff that does escape will be soon lost in the morass of the DMs Guild - like the Ark of the Covenant in Raiders of the Lost Ark. I'll likely do a "cluster" release of 4 or 5 pieces later this year. No rush.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 09:16:45
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I already proposed this idea for redoing the original realms timeline when 5e was just some bean counter's horrible nightmare.
Maybe it was my involvement that put people off but it had less than a handful of people interested. Im guessing that 5e realms wont get half as many interests.
As George said, creating good quality lore is hard enough. Creating it with no background detail to bed it into will require a genius the likes of Ed Greenwood or Tolkien.
Good luck.
First, I don't think 'redoing' something is a good project, if what you mean is 'making things come out different'. Now, adding new/more details, and putting a new spin on things - but yet mostly the same results happened (in such a way that the 'common man' wouldn't know the difference between the new version and the original), then I'm on board with that. Thats just adding more 'depth', so long as its done in an intelligent manner. For example, Shar's involvement with Karsus and the fall of Netheril was something a lot of folks didn't care for, and felt was a retcon, but I didn't mind it, because I thought it made some sense (after all, Shar does spend ALL of her time making grand plans against Mystra - some of them have to bear fruit). It didn't actually change any of the results - the history remained intact. it just gave us a new perspective.
The other thing is, I don't understand how 'creating in a vacuum' is too hard. Thats the ultimate freedom. Plus, its not really true - you still have thousands upon thousands of years worth of Realms history to base all your stuff on. Sure, tying your new stories to old, stray bits of lore is awesome, but its not necessary. I almost feel like we've been brainwashed into thinking it is ("Hey! That was never in the Realms before! It doesn't belong here!"). We don't have to connect new lore to old stuff. Its nice when it happens, but there is nothing wrong with creating stuff whole-cloth.
Have we become hipsters? Is it because now everyone can 'write FR lore', its not 'cool' anymore? Now that its not a 'private club', its no fun? 
The opportunity we have right now is something most of us yearned for two editions ago - the ability to actually write FR lore that other people would except, and maybe even pay for. Just imagine if we had that available to us back when the CKC's were being made. I just don't get it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 May 2017 09:20:39 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2017 : 15:05:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We've tried to get that restarted before, but the haziness of 4e's GSL was nothing like 3e's OGL, and everyone was afraid that by doing 'old lore' (pieces set in a time other the 4e era) could be construed as as a violation of the VERY limited 'license' (and I use that term very loosely - only an idiot would have signed that heinously one-sided agreement). Basically, we couldn't 'mix old with new', and no one really wanted to do 'new', so it never got restarted. 4e killed the CK Compendiums.
HOWEVER, with 5e here and this new DMs guild thing - why couldn't we publish a volume ON THAT under the header of 'Candlekeep', with a 'pay what you want' price, and have all proceeds go to the upkeep (and maybe update?) of this site? It might be the way to go. Maybe even revisit the old ones and update them for 5e (I wouldn't mind going back in and tweaking the names in my article, for instance).
Quite frankly, the effort versus return on DMs Guild using pay what you want (at least on the stuff that I've put up as pay what you want) has been minimal. I've barely broken $100 on a 100+ page rules addition, and I've had looks like 889 downloads in the last year (of which 55 paid). I may be the odd man out though.
However, I'm not saying that to discourage anyone, just to point out that the endeavor to put a group name to it may be a little cumbersome especially if you do PWYW. It might be better to do it individually or setting a price. I'm still writing (as time permits)... granted for areas mostly unexplored previously. However, I know I'm slow due to real life work, so I've started posting a lot of my concepts here (as a lot of you know) just to "air" them. I still plan on doing my stuff for the united tharchs as PWYW, but then I honestly could care less about the money and really just want to share with the community.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 08:00:09
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Even if just the seven people in this thread wrote just one page on something we could agree on, that would be amazing.
True.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 15:09:53
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I'm not doing the 'quotey thing'...
First up - 'little return' for the CKC on the DM's Guild? You're right! How silly of me. Why do that when we were making SO much money with them before.
Your logic = 'Totally Free' > 'Free with the possibility of pay' 
"I don't do 1400's" - Yes, Krash said pretty much the same thing. Did anyone bother to read what I posted above? If you write a piece set in the past, then that same 'widget' (artifact, crown, Dead princess' locket, etc) is still up for grabs, or that same locale is still 'spooky AF' and needs some adventurin'.
"That secret society of Mages that practiced 'lama magic' back in the 900's in Grungyfluke hills? I don't mind if anyone finds and raids the place up to 1385 DR, but if someone finds and raids that same exact place (filled with the same exact threats and treasure) in the 1400's, well, I ain't havin' none of that, because... stuff".
Thats what that sounds like to me. Unless you're just saying you can't be bothered doing the 'crunchy bits' for 5e, but if you are sticking with 1e/2e/3e or even 4e at this point for 'your stuff', good luck with that. Let me know how that goes. I totally get 'talking to yourself' - I do it all the time. You're like one those Japanese soldiers they found on islands 20 years after WW2 was over (still 'fighting the god fight'). Just understand that there were only a few of those... and now there are none.
"I don't really change anything... I'm just rewriting the ToT without the gods in it".
Okaaaaaaaaaaaaaay...
That's like rewriting WW2 without the Nazis in it. Maybe you can focus on those crazy bastards that were on those islands for 20 years.
I'm not trying to belittle people efforts - just about everyone who comes here to the keep does some amazing things with the lore - I just want folks to realize that you're putting a LOT of 'wasted effort' into stuff that almost no-one will use. If you just tweak the stuff y'all are working on so that it could be used in the 1400's (or just about in any era), you might get much more satisfying 'returns' for your time investment (and by 'returns' I don't mean money, necessarily - lord knows I have never done anything game-related for a paycheck).
And why do this stuff under the 'CKC banner'? Because we are a known and trusted source of quality FR lore, and because by doing projects under an 'umbrella group' they remain internally consistent. Did you guys know I have never downloaded ANYTHING off the DMs Guild (other than Krash's stuff)? Not that there isn't lots of good material there, its just that 99% of it is just 'floating in a vacuum'. People are writing stuff that over-writes what others are doing. If people see consistent projects by a group of talented people, they may adopt that as their own 'unofficial canon'. With one-offs, that is far less likely to happen.
And never fall FR the trap of becoming 'enamored with your own cleverness' (*cough* 4e *cough*) - been there, done that. Got a box load of tee-shirts. One of my favorite projects/threads from back in the old WotC boards was the one for the Utter East. Not so much because it is such a fascinating place (anyplace can be fascinating once you start fleshing it out), but because I worked with a bunch of other very talented FR 'experts' who were there to reign me in when i was pursuing a lore-path that should have been scraped. Quite a few things I was 'called on' (being over-done, or overly-connected to the point of absurdity, etc), and I thought they were just plain wrong about, that now I look back upon and say, "what was I thinking? Pee-U!"
We have all have our 'lichlings' moments. Just don't get too caught up in them. Not every lump of coal can be turned into a diamond. If your like me and thought working within a group might curtail your creativity, then maybe some of that creativity actually needs to be curtailed... and thats what you are afraid of.
You know what most of the lore up on the DMs Guild looks like to me? 4e... and you still can't convince me that any of the designers of that fiasco actually listened to what others were saying while it was getting designed. 4e FR was the biggest pile of noncohesive, random bits of 'kewl' in the history of gaming. Its like they just took five years of sticky notes and C&Ped it to make a campaign guide. It was just tons of ideas - great and terrible - all just run together in a mish-mosh that we are STILL trying to figure out a decade later. And that the DM's Guild now... but at least its not canon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 May 2017 15:15:02 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 15:49:56
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| We could always write about old lore - Time of Troubles or whatever - and then relate it to the 5e era. For instance, we could have a series of articles on the "Era of Upheaval". The first couple coukd be about the ToT, dazz could do his alternate take for one, and later articles could work through the Spellplague all the way up to the end of that Age in the Sundering. Surely there's got to be some project we could all come together on. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 18:34:39
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LOL - Dazzler, you know I love you dude, I'm just trying to warn you that sometimes you can become so enamored with a particular aspect of something, no-one else sees it, and that's a lonely road.
Some of my most popular maps are of places that I myself would never play in. If you are just doing this for yourself, then that is fine, so long as you realize that. As for me, I live for those moments when people tell they use my maps all the time. Sadly, some of my favorites - like Erlkazar and the Hordelands - I get very little feedback on. But that's okay - some are for me, and some are for the community. If I just focused on my favorite bits, I'd soon find myself getting disheartened.
And thats the LAST thing I want to see great designers doing. So much potential around here I feel is just going to waste now, because people are still hung-up on what was lost.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 May 2017 18:55:13 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 19:00:11
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Sieze the Day!... and win the Future!
I unabashedly jump back and forth between eras during my campaigns. If something is developed for earlier eras, it is still totally relevant and usable in the current era of the game.
Also, despite my enjoyment of discussing the divinities here on the forums... my actual games don't involve the gods coming down and stomping through the realms. I very much embrace dazzler's approach when it comes to practical applications of divinity in the game-world.
So, what I'm saying is I think everybody here at Candlekeep should keep using their creative energies to build up the Realms Lore wherever and whenever possible. Regardless of Era or Edition or whatever... As always the Realms is whatever we make it, and we have the power to craft it as we wish... All good things. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 19:24:20
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Now I want to write a time-jumping AP called "The Era of Your Ways".
The only thing I have so far is that in that final event, the PCs have one of those "OMFG!!!" moments of clarity, where everything else they did and went through falls into place like a brilliant, interlocking puzzle. A twist, but a time-twist, where the ending is directly connected to the beginning in a way they never saw coming.
I've managed to pull-off similar stuff, and its so satisfying when it all works out 'as planned', but the problem with all this is that its nearly impossible to get rightwith a pre-fab adventure, because you have to be intimately familiar with your gaming group, and know precisely who would do what in certain situations (so when you reveal the 'Timey Wimey' stuff, your players will look at you like you are some sort of magician).
Now I have to think on how to take all of that and try to make it work in a pre-fab AP. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 19:26:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Also, despite my enjoyment of discussing the divinities here on the forums... my actual games don't involve the gods coming down and stomping through the realms. I very much embrace dazzler's approach when it comes to practical applications of divinity in the game-world.
Neither do I - I can't think of a single time when I used 'the gods' when running FR.
Funnily enough, I have in Greyhawk, but just once, when players decided to go in the opposite direction I wanted them to and 'walked off the map'.
Then their Characters met ME... and I was not a happy god. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 May 2017 01:41:10 |
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Topic |
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Thought Exercise: What's Your Sundering Story?
