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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 05 May 2017 : 18:18:50
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| Not that Lolth is all that great, herself :P Hmmm...the Abyss (or wherever she makes her home now), or Arvandor? I know where I would prefer to end up lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 05 May 2017 18:23:02 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 18:36:36
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Not that Lolth is all that great, herself :P Hmmm...the Abyss (or wherever she makes her home now), or Arvandor? I know where I would prefer to end up lol.
Only as a result of Corellon's banishment...
...I hear Devils have pointy ears too... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 19:00:53
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| Well, she was banished because of her treachery, not because he felt like it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 19:10:17
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Never thought I see myself siding with Cyricists in an argument.
Politics does indeed make strange bedfellows.
As for Corellon, his whole 'my way or the highway' schtick has always rubbed me the wrong way. For a race that is supposedly based around 'freedom of expression', he seems awfully concerned about everyone 'doing it HIS way'. If he truly believed half the crap he espoused, then he should love an elf who had the creativity and self-expression to want to walk around looking like an orc all day long.
And there's the rub, isn't it? That why I came up with my theory of the 'two brothers' (Corellon and Gruumsh - which became quasi-canonical). Gruumsh felt protective over the Dökkálfar, and felt they were the epitome of freedom, but Corellon would not abide 'ugliness' in HIS kingdom, and so, they fought. Gruumsh isn't the 'great evil' so many see him as - he is the champion of those who the world would shun, and turn away. Its easy to love 'pretty ones', eh? Corellon's a sham.
Now, folks like Lolth and Cyric - they're honest, even when they're lying. ALL gods 'have an agenda', and if killing innocents had to be done to further their agenda, they do it ("the means justifies the ends"). Give me an honest douche over a lying, smiling snake any day. At least with the ebil gods, you know where you stand.
Lolth protects her people, and Gruumsh protects his. To hate them is to hate the Sitting Bulls and Nelson Mandelas of the world. Stop buying into all the 'elf privilege'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 May 2017 19:11:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 19:19:16
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| I don't know how much protecting her people Lolth does, considering that she encourages them to kill each other... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 19:21:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Not that Lolth is all that great, herself :P Hmmm...the Abyss (or wherever she makes her home now), or Arvandor? I know where I would prefer to end up lol.
Only as a result of Corellon's banishment...
...I hear Devils have pointy ears too...
Lolth moved her domain at the end of the WotSQ series -- and she still stayed in the Lower Planes. She had the power to leave where she had been banished to, but she didn't go very far from there -- which means she likes the locale, and finds that it suits her. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 19:28:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Not that Lolth is all that great, herself :P Hmmm...the Abyss (or wherever she makes her home now), or Arvandor? I know where I would prefer to end up lol.
Only as a result of Corellon's banishment...
...I hear Devils have pointy ears too...
Lolth moved her domain at the end of the WotSQ series -- and she still stayed in the Lower Planes. She had the power to leave where she had been banished to, but she didn't go very far from there -- which means she likes the locale, and finds that it suits her.
She is merely turning Lemons into Lemonade... Playing the hand she was dealt from a stacked deck. She is a strong independent woman, why would she want to step back into his shadow?
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 23:19:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Elves are bigoted jerks.
Yes, but their pretty women make up for it. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 23:28:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Lolth protects her people, Gruumsh protects his
The latter actually wants his people to grow strong, the former only wants them to wither and be nice little subservient playthings, too busy killing each other for her "favor" to notice. That's in fact exactly what has happened to a lot of drow. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 May 2017 23:29:22 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 02:02:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
She is merely turning Lemons into Lemonade... Playing the hand she was dealt from a stacked deck. She is a strong independent woman, why would she want to step back into his shadow?
There's a whole lot of planes that aren't Arvandor. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 02:34:48
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Lolth also wants her people to be strong - that's why she pits them against each other.
Your average drow is a match for at least a half-dozen normal humans. That's how she wanted it - you don't get invincible warriors by coddling folks. Same goes for Gruumsh. They both need their respective people to be strong, for the final battle against the evil Elven Empire and its allies.
And BTW, its not like I 'believe' any of this. I'm not that nuts - these are just fictional characters. All I am demonstrating here is that there are always different ways to spin the exact same events. History is written by the winners - no one ever truly believes that THEY are 'the bad guys'. Had the Dark Elves won the Crown Wars, they would have painted the 'fairy elves' in an evil light (and it could much deserved, in the case of the Aryvandaar).
In Gruumsh's case, he thinks 'his people' were denied lands that were rightfully theirs'. Now, can we think of any cases in history where the 'pretty white people' thought they deserved someone else's lands more than the indigenous people do? Is there a single instance of the British Empire EVER thinking otherwise? Sure, FR isn't RW history, but 'people are people', and people - even ones with pointy ears - are going to take stuff away from folks they deem 'beneath them', looks-wise or anything else (the folks of Myth Drannor originally considered humans 'beasts', and even hunted them for sport).
So don't be so quick to judge Lolth, or Gruumsh, or most others. There at least two sides to every story, and if some being IS truly evil, well then, we have to question what made them that way... what hurt them?
Except for Cyric... Cyric's just a douche. Sorry Cyrinishad, but he is (and yet, following my own advice, we did get a glimpse of what made him into the sniveling little s**t he is today). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 May 2017 15:50:52 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 04:54:28
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I actually quite like drow, just not their goddess (though I am a big fan of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun). I know the elves aren't flawless, and neither are the Seldarine. Elves can be jerks, especially sun elves. The Crown Wars? Not a shining moment for the mortal elves or Corellon. This doesn't mean that the race as a whole are 'ebil', if we're going that route.
History is written by the winners, I fully agree there. But I would argue that no one really 'won' the Crown Wars. It continued even after the Descent, and the elves may have destroyed each other if the Seldarine hadn't finally put their foot down. In a weird way, if there was a winner of the CW, I would say it was Lolth. Some of the Ilythir were already under her sway, but after the Descent, she gained many more followers. The elves weren't winners, and neither were the drow, but Lolth may have been. What if...never mind, that speculation would belong in another thread lol.
I know why a lot of people here hate the Seldarine, and the elves, and I realize I am in the minority, but someone has to defend them lol . One of the reasons I like the gods of Faerun is that they aren't perfect, which allows for more theological debates like this one. They make mistakesm some big, some small. I like some of the "evil" gods too, like Vhaeraun, as I stated, and Mask. I'm also a fan of Lathander, and he helped bring about the Dawn Cataclysm. Because they're deities, their actions can have far more reaching consequences. Even Lolth, whom I love to hate, is interesting in her own way, and not one dimensional, even if she has been portrayed that way, especially more recently.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 05:02:29
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I actually quite like drow, just not their goddess (though I am a big fan of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun). I know the elves aren't flawless, and neither are the Seldarine. Elves can be jerks, especially sun elves. The Crown Wars? Not a shining moment for the mortal elves or Corellon. This doesn't mean that the race as a whole are 'ebil', if we're going that route.
History is written by the winners, I fully agree there. But I would argue that no one really 'won' the Crown Wars. It continued even after the Descent, and the elves may have destroyed each other if the Seldarine hadn't finally put their foot down. In a weird way, if there was a winner of the CW, I would say it was Lolth. Some of the Ilythir were already under her sway, but after the Descent, she gained many more followers. The elves weren't winners, and neither were the drow, but Lolth may have been. What if...never mind, that speculation would belong in another thread lol.
I know why a lot of people here hate the Seldarine, and the elves, and I realize I am in the minority, but someone has to defend them lol . One of the reasons I like the gods of Faerun is that they aren't perfect, which allows for more theological debates like this one. They make mistakesm some big, some small. I like some of the "evil" gods too, like Vhaeraun, as I stated, and Mask. I'm also a fan of Lathander, and he helped bring about the Dawn Cataclysm. Because they're deities, their actions can have far more reaching consequences. Even Lolth, whom I love to hate, is interesting in her own way, and not one dimensional, even if she has been portrayed that way, especially more recently.
'
I've never liked the elf-bashing, myself. Granted, they are far from flawless and some of their past actions can't be defended -- but I don't blame the entire race, for that. |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 10:43:58
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This might be a topic where Ed might have a different opinion for his private campagins than the public books. My opinon is Ed's realm with less focus on a need to worship a god as patron, is more realistic than the hardcore rule everyone needs an patron. I have no real life comparisons to the "single patron" system, exept monotheist religions.
If one relaxes the rule one need one single patron, "Half elves" and being a human with part elf, or elf with part human soul, isnt a problem. As it is, one have to choose. is the half elf going to belong to an human, or elf religion? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 13:52:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
This might be a topic where Ed might have a different opinion for his private campagins than the public books. My opinon is Ed's realm with less focus on a need to worship a god as patron, is more realistic than the hardcore rule everyone needs an patron. I have no real life comparisons to the "single patron" system, exept monotheist religions.
If one relaxes the rule one need one single patron, "Half elves" and being a human with part elf, or elf with part human soul, isnt a problem. As it is, one have to choose. is the half elf going to belong to an human, or elf religion?
I've never understood how it's such a big problem to say that there is one deity a person is more closely going to adhere to than others. Unless a person has multiple personalities, then it's simple logic that there's one deity that most closely matches their personality.
Having a patron deity does not mean monotheistic worship or ignoring the existence of other deities or anything like that. Ed has also said this repeatedly, discussing how a person -- even a cleric -- may call on several different deities just during the course of the day. You don't even have to actively worship a deity for them to be your patron -- just revere them a bit more than any others. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 14:01:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Lolth also wants her people to be strong - that why she pits them against each other.
Your average drow is a match for at least a half-dozen normal humans. thats how she wanted it - you don't get invincible warriors by coddling folks. Same goes for Gruumsh. They both need their respective people to be strong, for the final battle against the evil Elven Empire and its allies.
I can give a chance to other "evil" gods, but not the ones like Lolth. The drow could be much more without her. Just how much of their potential is wasted due to her dogma? They have withered under her influence, since she basically strips them of any incentive to develop ideas, communicate, discover new stuff, *grow* as a people. Nope, she censors all of that (she even has those who dare to think out of her box killed), and then strips them of nearly everything that is beautiful in life. Most drow don't even have a say on their future under her.
Nonsense like "love is weakness" is in no way related to strength. You could have invincible warriors through intense training, no need to have your people living in constant strife and paranoia (besides, compare all drow get training. Give training to humans and then compare them. The battle won't be imbalanced any longer. Nothing to do with living a miserable life) In addition to that, battle prowess is far from being the only form of strength. Individuals can shine in many fields that can contribute to the strenght of a people, while having no interest in petty battles for the favor of a random goddess. Under Lolth they aren't free to pursue what they wish, because their life revolves around her and this eternal struggle to win her favor. They have a much harder time developing new magic, because no communication due to suspicion of your peers->much less ideas bouncing around. Even the drow achievements in magic disappear if compared to that of the elves and humans.
So, in short, Lolth *does* want them to stagnate, they have done nothing but stagnating under her, and nearly all of her plans against humans or elves or dwarves ended with huge losses. While the elves--with their far lower birth rate--have at times managed to achieve again the greatness of the pre-Crown Wars era (Myth Drannor is an example), the drow never went even remotely near the level of development of Ilythiir and Miyeritar (of which, ironically, Vhaeraun and Eilistraee respectively were major patrons). I mean, when even the book that presents her faith says "the drow would now be much more successful, if it wasn't for Lolth", then you know that she just doesn't care.
Heck, we do actually know from Evermeet that originally Lolth didn't care about the drow. She only went to them when she noticed Toril and her two children there, so she wanted to get back at Corellon by corrupting and inflicting misery on the elves (both fair and dark). So she chose to corrupt the already warlike Ilythiiri, but in no way she gave a flying about them except as tools. She is still the same, the drow are but playthings to her. Lolth is one of those villains that could have been much more, but ended up being your next "demon lady drama queen #546". |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 May 2017 14:09:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 16:17:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
This might be a topic where Ed might have a different opinion for his private campagins than the public books. My opinon is Ed's realm with less focus on a need to worship a god as patron, is more realistic than the hardcore rule everyone needs an patron. I have no real life comparisons to the "single patron" system, exept monotheist religions.
If one relaxes the rule one need one single patron, "Half elves" and being a human with part elf, or elf with part human soul, isnt a problem. As it is, one have to choose. is the half elf going to belong to an human, or elf religion?
I've never understood how it's such a big problem to say that there is one deity a person is more closely going to adhere to than others. Unless a person has multiple personalities, then it's simple logic that there's one deity that most closely matches their personality.
Having a patron deity does not mean monotheistic worship or ignoring the existence of other deities or anything like that. Ed has also said this repeatedly, discussing how a person -- even a cleric -- may call on several different deities just during the course of the day. You don't even have to actively worship a deity for them to be your patron -- just revere them a bit more than any others.
The big problem here, Wooly, is that most people alive on Earth today practice monotheistic religions, and don't understand what having a 'pantheon' even means. The people of ancient Greece, Egypt, Rome, etc, all had their 'favorites', but they venerated ALL the gods - they had to. They BELIEVED IN THEM. This is something that just doesn't get through to most modern gamers - for most of human history, peoples had 'a local favorite', and then a slew of others they also worshiped (including dark/evil ones).
So lets put it into a Catholic/Christian context, since thats the religion I am most familiar with. I've worked in many Italian homes, and most of them have these statues of 'patron saints'. A family usually has a favorite, but they venerate them all. HOWEVER, they also still believe in 'THE God' - the big Kahuna. And lets not forget about Jesus. Whether they want to admit it or not, Christianity is a form of polytheism.
I once had a fellow work on my car, and he was a very weird dude (a friend of my brother-in-laws), We got to talking, and he told me he was a satan-worshiper. I was like, "Okaaaay...". Then I said something about god (I wasn't preaching - I try to never do that, no matter what person's views on theology are), and he interrupted and said, "I don't believe in god".
So you don't believe in god, but you believe in the dude the folklore says he created? 
I realized right then and there he was a moron (nothing to do with his choice of religion, just his complete lack of understanding of it). I just walked away (I should have walked away when he started telling me the story about how he wrestled a shark and saved a girl's life at the beach...)
Anyhow, the point I am trying to make is that you don't "just worship a god"; there is an entire buffet of myth and folklore that surrounds all religions. You don't get to pick 'N' choose (well, actually you do - that's why we have 'sects'). You don't just worship Zeus and not believe in the rest of Olympian Pantheon. He might be the guy you have a little shrine to somewhere in your home, but you pay lip-service to ALL the gods, depending on the particular circumstances.
Ed wasn't trying to create anything weird or 'new' - that's just basic polytheism 101. Different gods for different occasions. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 May 2017 00:24:21 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2017 : 16:30:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
This might be a topic where Ed might have a different opinion for his private campagins than the public books. My opinon is Ed's realm with less focus on a need to worship a god as patron, is more realistic than the hardcore rule everyone needs an patron. I have no real life comparisons to the "single patron" system, exept monotheist religions.
If one relaxes the rule one need one single patron, "Half elves" and being a human with part elf, or elf with part human soul, isnt a problem. As it is, one have to choose. is the half elf going to belong to an human, or elf religion?
Faerunians are polytheistic by nature, which is why there are pantheons. It is true many will venerate one deity above others, albeit slightly. Here is a quote from Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms :
"Almost all beings in Faerun worship many gods; as a rule, only zealots and clergy venerate just one deify...any mort of any race can worship any deity. Of course, a would-be worshiper's upbringing and moral or ethical stance make some match-ups of faith highly unlikely. The most unusual oes are usually the result of an individual searching for the right calling, or ascribing the outcome of an important life event to the influence or direct action of a particular deity...The average Faerunian lives long enough to worship (or serve through one's actioms) one deity above all others--though in many cases, which deity a given person has serred most might not be clear to a dying mortal or anyone else...he ends up in the afterlife serving the deity most appropriate to his moral and ethical outlook...For almost all mortals, religion is a matter of Embracing primary worship of one deity--even if only slightly above--all others." (Pg 132-3).
So a farmer will pray to Chauntea, and maybe even Talos and Malar, depending on the season, but perhaps he "speaks" to Chauntea most often.in the case of the half-elf paladin of Torm, he clearly venerates Torm, so Celestia would be his destination. Most full elves (and some half-elves) venerate the Seldarine, so Arvandor is their destination. And, of course, the Seldarine in itself is a pantheon.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 06 May 2017 16:41:50 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2017 : 22:05:52
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CorellonsDevout: The quote from Ed is fine. But most people who post here I think seems to have an idea about real polytheism.
But if one opened the 3rd edition FRCS you would see it stated players would need to pick an patron. Polytheist religions don't always have patrons; and a few who do, as some hindu theologies, barely qualify as polytheist. An sociologist, think it was Max Weber, claimed the hindu was more purely monotheistic than the Christians, as himself.
I don't want to judge on the Christian part; several hinduist theories of faith, isn't polytheistic, as an example. All of their gods, is just images of The One God.
People, and older professionals in old Anthropology and Sociology, seem to have the impression the "old" polytheism is less advanced, and the half-polytheism is more complex. I don't agree; it's a development in many parts of our world. But the old Polytheists as the Vikings or Gauls, were not primitives. We just don't see the world as they do. And I find Ed writes slightly different, and seem to describe polytheism better than some other D&D writers.
I just have a preference for relaxing on the "personal patron", slightly. But I'd prefer having same rule for Clerics, too, even if only Ed Greenwood seem to have mentioned clerics without a "personal patron".
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2017 : 22:40:30
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As far as "picking a patron" goes, since most Faerunians venerate one god, albeit sometimes only slightly, above the others, that could be considered their "patron deity". Going with the example of the farmer I used earlier, if he leaned more Chauntea, even if he didn't consider himself a "follower of Chauntea", Chauntea could be considered his patron if you were to play that famer (I know farmer isn't a class, but just for the sake of the argument). Some Faerunians do have patron deities, and they don't have to be paladins or clerics. They would be lay worshipers (like followers of Eilistraee who are not of the clergy, for example). Or, perhaps you are playing a ranger, and he pays homage to both Silvanus and Mielikki. Does he lean more towards one, if only a little? If so, then, were I playing that ranger, I would list whichever one it was as his "patron".
If you're playing a specific class and filling out the character sheet, then it would make sense for them to have a patron deity (that's why you have a list of gods to choose from). And clerics of course would have a patron deity, as they have dedicated their lives to that particular deity. But your average Faeraunian, like a farmer or city-dweller, will pay homage to multiple deities, based on their circumstances. Perhaps they need a little extra luck, so they pray to Tymora.
Even in polytheistic religions, in which a person worships multiple deities, it was common enough for them to have a "patron". Take Odysseus for example. He prayed to all the gods of the Greek pantheon, but he considered Athena his "patron". He spoke with her the most often, and had an affinity with her. I think this is the idea in the Realms, though with some, it may not be as clearly defined, as it also has to do with how to live your life, and what set of ethics and morals you have.
Or, look at the Seldarine. They too are a pantheon, and the elves respect and pay homage to one of them. But they could also lean more towards one than the others. That's one of the reasons there are priests. The clergy of Hanali, for example, fully acknowledges and respects other members of the Seldarine, but their patron goddess is Hanali. Polytheism means you worship multiple deities, but it doesn't mean you have to worship all of them the same. It's how you live your life, and what you value. That is going to influence which deity you lean towards more than the others, even if only slightly. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 07 May 2017 22:50:14 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2383 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2017 : 04:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know how much protecting her people Lolth does,
At very least, she needs them to be numerous, strong (to stay numerous) and following her. The rest is balancing these priorities.
quote:
considering that she encourages them to kill each other...
Not a problem. Underdark cities have limited resources, and the drow don't die out without a compelling reason, unlike. Thus if there's nowhere to expand, they'd have to somehow get rid of the excess population when they have any. She just makes it her thing, binding them to herself more and making them accomplish her goals - if the drow chop up their surface cousins, this both scratches her ex and makes them remember her. Between the surface and Underdark raids, there's variable level of risk and overall intensity, so the expected losses conveniently adjustable.
Of course, the drow have problems with expansion in part because they lost much of their earlier adaptability - they'd have to get rid of the Matrons and Way of Lolth. As demonstrated in Llurth Dreir, Sshamath and wildspace.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've never liked the elf-bashing, myself. Granted, they are
More of a "fish in the barrel" thing, IMHO. Not that it ain't "lawful prey", but it's too easy.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2017 : 13:51:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know how much protecting her people Lolth does, considering that she encourages them to kill each other...
Its called race strengthening by weeding out the weak so that the strong don't have to carry their weight  |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2017 : 13:53:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Lolth also wants her people to be strong - that's why she pits them against each other.
Your average drow is a match for at least a half-dozen normal humans. That's how she wanted it - you don't get invincible warriors by coddling folks. Same goes for Gruumsh. They both need their respective people to be strong, for the final battle against the evil Elven Empire and its allies.
And BTW, its not like I 'believe' any of this. I'm not that nuts - these are just fictional characters. All I am demonstrating here is that there are always different ways to spin the exact same events. History is written by the winners - no one ever truly believes that THEY are 'the bad guys'. Had the Dark Elves won the Crown Wars, they would have painted the 'fairy elves' in an evil light (and it could much deserved, in the case of the Aryvandaar).
In Gruumsh's case, he thinks 'his people' were denied lands that were rightfully theirs'. Now, can we think of any cases in history where the 'pretty white people' thought they deserved someone else's lands more than the indigenous people do? Is there a single instance of the British Empire EVER thinking otherwise? Sure, FR isn't RW history, but 'people are people', and people - even ones with pointy ears - are going to take stuff away from folks they deem 'beneath them', looks-wise or anything else (the folks of Myth Drannor originally considered humans 'beasts', and even hunted them for sport).
So don't be so quick to judge Lolth, or Gruumsh, or most others. There at least two sides to every story, and if some being IS truly evil, well then, we have to question what made them that way... what hurt them?
Except for Cyric... Cyric's just a douche. Sorry Cyrinishad, but he is (and yet, following my own advice, we did get a glimpse of what made him into the sniveling little s**t he is today).
LOL, Markustay, sometimes I think we share a mind somehow. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2017 : 15:30:38
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I just removed a comment that could quite readily be perceived as sexist. Let's keep that kind of thing elsewhere, please. There's more than enough of that in the wider world without bringing it into our halls, as well.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2017 : 17:39:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So don't be so quick to judge Lolth, or Gruumsh, or most others. There at least two sides to every story, and if some being IS truly evil, well then, we have to question what made them that way... what hurt them?
Except for Cyric... Cyric's just a douche. Sorry Cyrinishad, but he is (and yet, following my own advice, we did get a glimpse of what made him into the sniveling little s**t he is today).
Everyone will be thankful when his 1000 year imprisonment is over, and he returns triumphantly redeemed to rescue the Realms from the constant Tyranny, Lies, Strife, and Murder spread by the so-called "gods"... He will be remembered as a valiant savior, not the pathetic cartoonish villainous image that these nefarious deities continually conspire to present to the mortals of the Realms. Ultimately he will rise above the constant barrage of slander & libel... "Sticks and Stones may break bones, but Words will never hurt me!... And the Lies will only make me stronger!!!" |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 10 May 2017 17:40:35 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2017 : 18:29:26
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I didn't think Cyric had yet risen to the level of being a pathetic cartoonish villain; it's something for him to aspire to.
Scooby Doo villains are more impressive than Cyric. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2017 : 19:20:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I didn't think Cyric had yet risen to the level of being a pathetic cartoonish villain; it's something for him to aspire to.
Scooby Doo villains are more impressive than Cyric.
...And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!!!  |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2017 : 08:26:56
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| Pull the Mask off Cyric and he's really just Old Man Smithers? |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2017 : 12:43:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Pull the Mask off Cyric and he's really just Old Man Smithers?
Release the Hound! Chaos that is. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2017 : 00:43:48
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If you invoke the old spirits-versus-souls from 1st edition, elves have spirits while humans and half-elves have souls, so the logical afterlife for any half-elf would be a human one, since the human gods are set up to have eternal afterlives, while elven gods recycle.
(Humans, halflings, gnomes, dwarves, and half-elves all had souls that went on to eternal rewards; bugbears, centaurs, elves, giants, gnolls, goblins, hobgoblins, ixitxachitl, kobolds, kuo-toa, lizard men, locathah, mermen, ogres, orcs, sahuagin, satyrs, troglodytes, and any other intelligent races the DM decided had afterlives had spirits that got reincarnated.) |
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What happens after a half-elf dies?
