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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 00:46:01
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Whenever a half-elf dies what exactly happens to his/her spirit? Let’s say a half-elf paladin of Torm dies does his spirit have the option of going to either Arvandor or Celestia?
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2017 : 01:51:09
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I would say that if he worshipped Torm, that's where his spirit would go.
It's not the race that's important, it's the faith.
Heck, look at Lolth -- her main followers are drow, and most of them will kill a surface elf on sight. But Lolth is impersonating Moander, so she can get some surface elf worship, as well. They're not drow, but she still wants their faith. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2017 : 22:46:53
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It would depend on who the half-elf worshiped. Full elves go to Arvandor, unless they specifically worship a deity outside the elven pantheon. The same applies to dwarves.
If the half-elf worshiped both Torm and the Seldarine, then the destination of its soul would likely be determined once it got to the Fugue Plane. It would go to the deity whose ideology most aligned with its own. If it was more "Tormite" in its beliefs/morals, it would most likely go to Celestia.
Wooly is right, a lot of it is faith, but it is in part also racially determined, at least for the demihumans. Of course a big part of this is due to the fact that the demihuman pantheons are more inclined to be followed by the mortal races they represent. Most elves are more liable to follow the Seldarine, as it is their "birth pantheon". They are taught the ways of the Seldarine, and its part of their culture. But this doesn't mean an elf can't choose a different deity (Mielikki and Silvanus are popular choices outside the Seldarine. These elves would end up with that deity, rather than in Arvandor).
I've always seen drow as a little trickier. Eilistraeens and Vhaeraunites obviously go to them, not Lolth, but in the end, I believe it does come down to what is in the drow's heart. Zak didn't end up with Lolth, for example, and while priestesses and matron mothers almost certainly will go to Lolth, unless they have denounced her. Males end up with Lolth too, and it seems like most who don't worship a different deity do go to the Abyss, but obviously, that isn't always the case. If the drow is truly "Lolthite" in its morals, then it will end up in the Abyss. But if their heart (whether or not they actually have the faith, as Lolthite society tends to squelch knowledge of other deities) is different (like Zak's), then they will be more likely to end up elsewhere. It isn't talked about, but I wouldn't surprised if there are drow souls sprinkled in amongst others in the more "benevolent" realms.
Back to the half-elf. If it were raised among elves (in a more tolerable locale), then it would probably follow the Seldarine, and end up in Arvandor, unless, during its travels, it found its calling as a follower/paladin of Torm. I'm not trying to say that race entirely determines a destination, but since many demihuman deities have their specific pantheons, it is more common for them to worship said pantheon, and thus is partially determined by race, but it is not set in stone. An elf doesn't have to follow the Seldarine, just as a dwarf doesn't have to follow the dwarven pantheon, but they are more inclined to.
But if the half-elf (or even a full elf) is a paladin of Torm, then it will go to Celestia, whether "elven blood" is in its veins or not. That was a rather long tangent for a simple answer heh.  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 01 May 2017 22:48:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 06:35:23
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Elves are also very racist. It doesn't really matter if you worship them or not, you aren't 'getting in' unless you're a full-blooded elf. Other pantheons aren't nearly so picky (well, perhaps the dwarves, but thats more along the lines of xenophobia).
Just look at Khelben Blackstaff, who was known as 'The Nameless Chosen' for centuries, just because he wasn't allowed to wear his father's Elven name, and he refused a human one. Just look at what he had to go through to be accepted by them - bring back a remnant of a 12K year-dead elven kingdom, just to get on their 'maybe' list.
Elves are bigoted jerks. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 May 2017 06:38:29 |
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 14:45:47
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
If the half-elf worshiped both Torm and the Seldarine, then the destination of its soul would likely be determined once it got to the Fugue Plane. It would go to the deity whose ideology most aligned with its own. If it was more "Tormite" in its beliefs/morals, it would most likely go to Celestia.
Such a character would probably be judged False and end up in the Gray Waste. |
Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 15:02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Elves are also very racist. It doesn't really matter if you worship them or not, you aren't 'getting in' unless you're a full-blooded elf. Other pantheons aren't nearly so picky (well, perhaps the dwarves, but thats more along the lines of xenophobia).
Just look at Khelben Blackstaff, who was known as 'The Nameless Chosen' for centuries, just because he wasn't allowed to wear his father's Elven name, and he refused a human one. Just look at what he had to go through to be accepted by them - bring back a remnant of a 12K year-dead elven kingdom, just to get on their 'maybe' list.
Elves are bigoted jerks.
Yeah, this. The Seldarine are thoroughly racist in deciding who has access to their vip paradise Arvandor and who doesn't. The half-elf would end up with Torm (especially since he was a paladin of his, so his beliefs would be much closer to Torm's than the Seldarine's. Your race is far from enough to determine your afterlife). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 15:29:43
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quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
If the half-elf worshiped both Torm and the Seldarine, then the destination of its soul would likely be determined once it got to the Fugue Plane. It would go to the deity whose ideology most aligned with its own. If it was more "Tormite" in its beliefs/morals, it would most likely go to Celestia.
Such a character would probably be judged False and end up in the Gray Waste.
No, because many Faerunians pay homage to more than one deity, though they may have one they pay homage to a bit more than the others. If the half-elf followed both Torm and the Seldarine devoutly, he would be taken by the god that is best aligned with his idology, which, in this case, considering he's a paladin of Torm, would likely be Torm.but it's fairly normal for Faerunians to pay homage to more than one deity, and I don't just mean in the demihuman racial pantheon sense. A soul is taken to the god that is best aligned with its morals and how it lived it's life. If the fate of the soul is contested, I believe Kelemvor decides where it goes, and that doesn’t necessarily mean the Wall, because it is fairly normal for a mortal to pay tribute to more than one deity, and I don't just mean that in the demihuman racial pantheon sense. In this case, considering the half-elf is a paladin of Torm, Celestia is its most likely destination, since that implies a certain set of ethics and morals, even if the half-elf also followed the Seldarine. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 02 May 2017 16:00:24 |
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 15:57:36
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There is nothing wrong with honoring all the gods, but if you want to enter the realm of one of them in your afterlife, you must choose one and follow that god's teachings. Being a paladin of Torm does not mean you can't throw a coin into Umberlee's Cache in the springtime, donate books to the temple of Oghma or have your wedding at the temple of Sune, but it does mean you can't live your life according to the rules of any god but Torm. Trying to live your life by two sets of rules can only keep you from obeying either set of rules in its entirety. To a Paladin, rules are everything.
A character who follows his deity faithfully will already know, when he reaches the Fugue Plain, which god will receive him. If it is not already certain, he has a big problem. |
Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder. |
Edited by - LordXenophon on 02 May 2017 16:00:25 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 16:04:35
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I know (I added to my reply, but it took me awhile because the site was having issues, though that could be because I was on my phone). I was making the argument for the fate of souls as a whole. If he is a paladin of Torm, then yes, he will have lived bis life according to that doctrine. He could have also payed homage to the Seldarine, perhaps out of acknowledgement of his elven side, though it is unlikely he would do it with the same devotion as he does Torm, because then yes, you are right, it would mean he isn't truly a paladin.
My point about the fate of the souls was for them as a whole, not just the half-elf. Some people do follow two gods devoutly. Look at Qilue. She was a Chosen of Mystra, and a High Priestess of Eilistraee (though I would argue she leaned a bit more towards Eilistraee, and would probably end up in E's realm, but the point is, it's possible. I think part of it would depend on who the deities were. If they were highly conflicted deities, then yes, there might be a problem). But in the case of the half-elf paladin, yes, Celestia is the probable destination, since being a paladin requires a certain way of life and morals. If he went against those, he would be a traitor, and then may end up on the Wall. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 02 May 2017 16:22:56 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 16:47:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Elves are also very racist. It doesn't really matter if you worship them or not, you aren't 'getting in' unless you're a full-blooded elf. Other pantheons aren't nearly so picky (well, perhaps the dwarves, but thats more along the lines of xenophobia).
Just look at Khelben Blackstaff, who was known as 'The Nameless Chosen' for centuries, just because he wasn't allowed to wear his father's Elven name, and he refused a human one. Just look at what he had to go through to be accepted by them - bring back a remnant of a 12K year-dead elven kingdom, just to get on their 'maybe' list.
Elves are bigoted jerks.
That's exactly why the red wizards didn't want those damned elves in their country. I mean, who wants to be around a bunch of racist, bigoted jerks like that. The Mulan people of Thay are so much more advanced than all the other human cultures from the perspective, and people should really recognize that superior nature and applaud it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 17:27:55
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While elves can certainly be racist jerks (particularly sun elves), I don't think any god would turn away followers. There are half-elven priests and souls of half-elves in Arvandor, though, according to Player's Guide to Faerun petitioners all take on an elf-like appearance in Arvandor.
It is rare for a non-elf to worship the Seldarine, to be sure, just as it is rare for non-dwarves to worship the dwarven pantheon, just because the demihuman pantheons are race-centric, which is why I made the earlier comment about the destination of demihuman souls being partially determined by race.
Half-elves can follow the Seldarine if they chose, but it is less common (though I wouldn't call it rare) in part I think because most half-elves are not raised in elf-centered locations. However, if a half-elf was more "in tune" with its elven side, so to speak, and found its calling to be aligned with the Seldarine, I doubt it would be denied by them, even if it was looked down on by full-blooded elves. But at least some members of the Seldarine are sighted as having both full-elven and half-elven followers. Being a half-elf doesn't mean an automatic forbiddance into Arvandor. I think the mortals elves are a little pickier than the gods when it comes to followers.
"In keeping with the generally tolerant natures of the Seldarine, elven churches, particularly that of Hanali Celanil, are far more welcoming and accepting of half-elves than elven society in general." (Demihuman Deities, pg 93).
Also from Demihuman Deities}:
"Half-elves are welcome in the faiths of most of the elven deities if they have been raised in elven society: if raised in human society, they feel more of an affinity for the human powers." (page 186).
So again, it depends on where/how the half-elf was raised. Yes, many elven realms, particularly those who are more sun elven-centric, are less likely to have half-elves, but there are exceptions, and if a half-elf is raised by elves, or even if its elven parent taught it the ways of the Seldarine, I doubt it would be refused by the pantheon, whether or not it was shunned by mortal elves. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 02 May 2017 17:37:55 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 17:42:57
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Human gods, on the other hand, really need some sort of standards. They'd let a gelatinous cube into their 'heaven' if the thing blew them kisses. "Hey! You there! Lost soul! didn't you smile once as you walked past one of my temples? Are you sure? I think you did..."
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Elves are also very racist. It doesn't really matter if you worship them or not, you aren't 'getting in' unless you're a full-blooded elf. Other pantheons aren't nearly so picky (well, perhaps the dwarves, but thats more along the lines of xenophobia).
Just look at Khelben Blackstaff, who was known as 'The Nameless Chosen' for centuries, just because he wasn't allowed to wear his father's Elven name, and he refused a human one. Just look at what he had to go through to be accepted by them - bring back a remnant of a 12K year-dead elven kingdom, just to get on their 'maybe' list.
Elves are bigoted jerks.
That's exactly why the red wizards didn't want those damned elves in their country. I mean, who wants to be around a bunch of racist, bigoted jerks like that. The Mulan people of Thay are so much more advanced than all the other human cultures from the perspective, and people should really recognize that superior nature and applaud it.
Yeah, they go around saying things like, "Don't assume my sub-race, bro!", and calling everyone who disagrees with their socialist beliefs 'not-trees'! 
Hmmmm... I wonder in Szass Tam has ever been.......... orange.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 17:59:12
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Haha  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 19:01:58
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| I'd prefer not to go any further down that road, please. Some things need to be kept separated from the Realms. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 20:40:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'd prefer not to go any further down that road, please. Some things need to be kept separated from the Realms.
Agreed... Circling back to the topic of Realms bigotry... In my 5e campaigns I have highlighted the disunity of the "classic" fantasy races (Elves, Dwarves, Humans) around the Moonsea as something that the PCs need overcome, because PC groups tend to be mixed racially, and many of my PCs are Half-Orcs or Half-Elves. I decided that the Elves of Cormanthor have primarily fallen under the influence of the Eldreth Veluuthra in the wake of Myth Drannor's destruction. Also, I couldn't resist Hillsfar becoming reactionaries and blaming all of the Death and Destruction that has befallen the realms on Wizards & Non-Humans. So, the Red Plumes of Hillsfar have thoroughly embraced the concept of perpetual warfare and twisting the teachings of Tempus to their own ends proclaiming that they will "Make Humanity Great Again"...
Please Note: *I swear I'm not trying to sass Wooly with this post, and won't post anything else about this on this scroll if it's treading too close to RL for people* |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 02 May 2017 20:45:20 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2017 : 21:26:38
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Actually, racism is a fact of life (unfortunate as it may be), and it can be interesting to look at it from the lens of roleplaying. My last character I played was an elf (granted in Mystara not the realms) whose family had spelljammed in and landed in the Northern Reaches area (i.e. Vikings). I had it that his father was killed in a fight defending him and his mother, and they were rescued by humans. His mother eventually falls in love with an marries a human, and my character ends up with a half-elven brother.
So, my character grows up and his stepfather "treats him badly" in that he tries to raise him like a human boy in a Viking society. The human also "abuses" his half-brother, and my character took on a role of "protector" of his poor brother. This gives this elf a disrespect for humanity, and an overprotective nature for his brother (who ended up being evil). The character always assumed that his brother was honest and anyone that accused his brother of doing wrong was "obviously" misunderstanding the truth of things. It was a fun character to play, in that he was surrounded by humans all the time, but he treated them with scorn almost the way a human thinks of an orc. Meanwhile, the elf found that dwarves were another long lived race and seemed to "be very honorable", so he assumed that most dwarves felt like he did about humans. Given that human slavers were actually taking elves as slaves in the campaign, it was easy to adopt a superior attitude (granted, they were also taking humans as slaves... but hey, that's different... worse, he saw that these humans were breeding with the elf slaves, and thus they were trying to "commit racism" by "breeding the elves out"). I honestly didn't see myself going down that road when I took on the character (I pictured me simply being a mage-priest of Frey with a sun/nature fetish), but the more I looked at how society was treating this elf (and his own inability to see the truth about his brother)... the more his actions made sense. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 02:53:10
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In 2E rules half-elves have at least 50% elven blood. A half-elf and an elf produce half-elf children, a half-elf and a human produce human children. No matter how many generations of pure-elf are reintroduced into the bloodline, descendants of a half-elf will (in terms of game race mechanics) always remain half-elven. While human blood thins and dilutes elven blood until (in terms of game mechanics) a character has <50% elf blood and is considered fully human (albeit a human with hints of elven features and temperament, slightly slender build, slightly better eyesight, and slightly pointy ears).
Half-elves do not inherit many of the racial abilities common to pure elves. They get a best-of-both-worlds and worst-of-both-worlds mix of elven/human magical talent. Their aging and lifespan is closer to human than to elven. They are better tolerated than humans by most elves, but some elves still view half-elves as "tainted" or "impure" and treat them as humans (or worse).
So I imagine half-elves are generally treated as humans (not as elves) when they die. I think it's largely a matter of choice for each individual half-elf - which of their parent races they most strongly identify with, model themselves to become, or "claim" as their own - it's a choice that can be profoundly shaped by the race(s) of their parents, religion, kith, and kin - it's a choice that can be profoundly shaped by the treatment they receive (or perceive) from "purebred" humans and elves they interact with. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 May 2017 02:54:30 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 03:49:27
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| ^ That goes with the point I was trying to make earlier, and why I cited those quotes from Demihuman Deities. I agree a lot of it is choice, and how the half-elf was raised. Or, in some cases, maybe it was raised by humans but later feels the "calling" of its elven blood, then it can take up worship of one or more members of the Seldarine. If the half-elf follows the Seldarine, it will be treated as an elf when it dies, not a human. If, however, it feels more aligned with humans and the "human pantheon" and follows a "human" god, then it will be treated as a human when it dies. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 May 2017 03:50:34 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 10:24:41
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I think half-elves were "invented" by Tolkien, I could find no earlier reference. Although this Wikipedia article says "the notion of half-elves is borrowed from Norse mythology, in which elves occasionally had children with humans."
Tolkien's Half-elven ("Peredhil") were not a distinct race, nor were they very many, and each had to chose whether to be counted with immortal elvenkind or with mortal mankind.
I agree with the "calling" of elven/human blood, it may even be something a half-elf doesn't (consciously) understand, perhaps it explains the compulsion of so many half-elves towards adventuring.
I'm not sure I agree that worshipping Seldarine (or human deities, or any deity) is necessary. It probably helps, a lot. But half-elves worshipping any non-Seldarine non-Human "deity" - Bahamut, Asmodeus, Ptah, even no "god/goddess" at all - could still end up spending their lives and eternal afterlives in elven or human places (they also have a lot more "options" about where they might spend their afterlives, lol).
1E and 2E explicitly stated that humans have souls and elves have spirits and half-elves were left undefined, lol.
And liches have phylacteries, dragons have anima, golems/constructs are animated by elementals (but not elementals of the usual Inner Planes sort), fiends are (the) damned, Chosen (at least Mystra's Chosen) guard divine shards. The categories essence and psyche were also named but their species left unspecified. One of my players always insisted his character had mojo. Creatures in Ravenloft lore were sometimes said to be animated by dread and ghosts were echoes. Planescape lore named prime, planar, and proxy categories.)
These distinctions were only relevant (in game terms) for spells like resurrection, speak with dead, magic jar (aka possession), and trap the soul. These spells worked differently (or not at all) on different soulstuffs. Elves could not be brought back from the dead by any means short of a wish. The fate of dead half-elves was never explicitly defined.
3E cleaned all this stuff up a lot. Then messed it up a little with shade. |
[/Ayrik] |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 15:52:37
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I remember reading in The Complete Book of Elves had *spirits*. I will use "soul" for simplicity's sake lol. Perhaps half-elves have a bit of both? They have elven "spirit", but also a human "soul".
It's possible they could still end up in Arvandor even if they don't worship the Seldarine (though as you said, it probably helps a lot), but it might depend on how "elven" they are, which could go back the "calling". If they lived their life in a very "elven fashion", then it's possible, though to me that would imply at least some tribute to the Seldarine, since they are very much a part of elven culture. A half-elf who lived "like an elf" but didn't see the Seldarine as it's pantheon could also be taken in by Silvanus or Mielikki. So yeah, options lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 May 2017 16:05:06 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 16:26:21
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I haven't put much thought into the soul/spirit thing in a very long time - thats a hold-over from early editions of D&D.
However, with the 4e/5e lore, I might spin things so that 'spirits' are more primal, and thus connected to primordials (or other, non-deity gods). That 'souls' are something that only came about after the Godswar and the Shattering of the First World (in my homebrew, they would be the stray bits of 'mana' that got released when Gaea merged with Ymir to save the universe).
There has to be something special about souls, because gods seem to thrive on mortal worship, and fiends trade in them like currency. Its what makes the Prime Material so damn important to Outsiders.
So I guess, now that I AM thinking about it again, the Creatori (Creator Races) probably had spirits, NOT souls. Thus, I would conjecture that elves probably have souls now - their original, pre-Sundering forms would not have. That could be the whole difference between Elves and Fey right there. Created beings don't have souls - you have to be 'born' in a natural way to have one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 16:39:59
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I think of spirits as being more connected to nature (so in that way, they could be considered more "primal"). Souls and spirits have the same destination, though: when the mortal body dies, both souls and spirits go to the afterlife, so in that way, they are the same (and they make up the "spiritual essence" of the living being). In the end, they become "petitioners". Not sure how relevant that is, but there ya go lol.
Complete Book of Elves is the first place I read about elves having spirits, and I think I read it in a novel, too, but I am blanking on which one. Most other sources I recall (even pre-Sundering and pre-Spellplague) didn't differentiate. I never put much thought into into before, other than perhaps it had something to do with close ties to nature. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 16:47:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I haven't put much thought into the soul/spirit thing in a very long time - thats a hold-over from early editions of D&D.
However, with the 4e/5e lore, I might spin things so that 'spirits' are more primal, and thus connected to primordials (or other, non-deity gods). That 'souls' are something that only came about after the Godswar and the Shattering of the First World (in my homebrew, they would be the stray bits of 'mana' that got released when Gaea merged with Ymir to save the universe).
There has to be something special about souls, because gods seem to thrive on mortal worship, and fiends trade in them like currency. Its what makes the Prime Material so damn important to Outsiders.
So I guess, now that I AM thinking about it again, the Creatori (Creator Races) probably had spirits, NOT souls. Thus, I would conjecture that elves probably have souls now - their original, pre-Sundering forms would not have. That could be the whole difference between Elves and Fey right there. Created beings don't have souls - you have to be 'born' in a natural way to have one.
One thing we had discussed a few years back was the idea that in the long ago years, portions of Toril had beings whose soul didn't go to the outer planes, but instead merged back into "Toril" (which could mean the weave). In theory, that COULD also mean any plane that's an inner plane and not an outer plane, and given that at one point the elven afterlife was tied to Faerie/feywild.... you can see how this could work. It could also explain why the feywild is so magical.... its absorbed many souls from other worlds and then merged them with itself. Just an idea to throw out there.
Now, that wouldn't mean all spirits do that. Some my be reincarnated. Some might get absorbed by the world around them to power the weave, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 17:02:33
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I forgot I had also used 'spirit' for my Body, Mind, & Soul thing, likening 'spirit' to the mind, and thus that goes into the astral. Thats probably why I has stopped considering spirit in the same context D&D had originally considered it (as a non-human alternative to 'souls').
The only problem with all that is that if 'spirits' go to the Astral - which is the home of the Outer Planes - it doesn't make much sense. Spirits (in MY model) should go the the ethereal, because that's where the Elemental Planes are located (if 'spirit' is indeed a more 'primal' form of soul). I try to write my homebrew lore in such a way that it nudges (re-spins) certain bits of canon, but doesn't totally overwrite them, and that right there is a major re-write.
I have to think more on this...
I might have to consider 'Body' as more than just the material flesh - I might have to go with 4e's concept of 'the Animus', and say that goes to the elemental planes. That might actually be useful. So the Animus would be the 'reptilian brain' (The Id), and the Soul and spirit would be the Conscious and Subconscious: Building on the whole 'trinity' concept that is the foundation of the universe itself - God (Eternity), Anti-God (Cthon), and the Demiurge (The divine feminine, or 'Creativity'). Or to put it another way, Structure (Law), Destruction (Chaos), and 'Balance' (the whole 'circle of Life' thing). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 May 2017 17:03:55 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 17:12:58
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| I don't see elven spirits "merging" with the Feywild to the point they lose their individual essence (in part because elves have always been about individuality and free will), but some sort of merger is possible, especially considering their link to nature (their mortal bodies are certainly seen to contribute to the soil). There was the merging of fey gods with the Seldarine, so there likely is some connection. Those gods likely had their own realms, but perhaps they were more closely linked to the Feywild, perhaps an "overlapping" of sorts, which would still allow, and even help in part to explain, the magic of the Feywild, and the closeness of elven "spirits" with magic and nature. The Seldarine are also believed to be spirits of Arvandor. Oh, and I stand corrected. Demihuman Deities also calls elven souls "spirits", and implies it has to do with their close ties to nature. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 May 2017 17:53:41 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2017 : 18:34:48
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Oh, on a side note, this is another quote from Demihuman Deities:
"Some legends state that the first elves appeared in the Realms fully formed and shaped in Corellon's image, woven by magic from sunbeams, moonbeams, forests, clouds, seas, and shadows. Other myths claim that at least some of the elven subraces--the gold elves and moon elves in particular--migrated to Abeir-Toril through magical gates from one or more other worlds, most commonly identified as "Faerie". Myths discussing the natural origin of the Fair Folk are closely tied to the ability of many members of the Seldarine to assume nonelven, natural forms far greater in size than is common for their avatars. for example, Rillifane Rallathil has appeared as a massive oak tree, Deep Sashelas has appeared as a giant, towering (vaguely humaniform) wave of sea water, Aedrie Faenya has appeared as a white cloud, and Corellon Larethian has appeared as an azure crescent moon or star" (pg 93).
Of course there is also the legend of elves springing from Corellon's blood, but that could coincide with the one in which he created them from moonbeams, forests, clouds, etc. But what if we combined these myths? Say he did create them fully formed and in his image, but then they immigrated to Abeir-Toril? Also, from this passage, Faerie itself seems to be made up of one or more worlds. Perhaps, as I said earlier, Arvandor, or the equivalent thereof, is one of these worlds, and it "overlaps" Faerie. Arvandor/Ariananth has likely always been there, and the Seldarine took up residence when they immigrated. Or, they brought it with them from wherever they came from. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 01:20:12
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| By 4e the Seldarine did accept none elves as worshippers, but they're souls were transformed into elves when they got to Avandor. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 01:28:14
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| I think it's always been that way. In Player's Guide to Faerun all petitioners in Arvandor take on an elf-like appearance, whether they were full elves or not in life. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 02:20:49
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Racists.
Reminds me of that episode of Boondocks where folks went to 'White Heaven'.
So you spend your whole life trapped in a physical body, and are forced to stay the way you are born (well, there's magic, etc...), but when you die you are just a 'spirit' so you can take on any form you want... and the elven gods say 'you have to look like us to get in the door', even though how something looks in an afterlife is absolutely meaningless. 
What if I was a human that identified as an elf? I think we need to protest Arvandor! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 03:52:53
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Lol well, if you were a human who identified as an elf, wouldn't you be happy to take on an elf-like appearance in Arvandor?
"The petitioners of Arvandor--even those few who were not elves in their mortal lives--all appear as handsome elves here. These petitioners have even more of a fey look about them than elves from the Material Plane do, since their features are slightly exaggerated." (PGtF, pg 143).
I think most petitioners in the various gods' realms look like they did in life. In the case of Arvandor, my guess would be you keep your same general appearance, but they do become more "elf-like". So, if you had red hair in life, your soul/spirit would still have red hair, since petitioners are still humanoid. I am not advocating for the "transformation" one way or another (though I personally would love to rock the elf look lol. Beautiful physique, pointy ears, shampoo-model hair, and no body hair? Bring it lol), just speculating. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 05 May 2017 04:02:03 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 15:55:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Racists.
Reminds me of that episode of Boondocks where folks went to 'White Heaven'.
So you spend your whole life trapped in a physical body, and are forced to stay the way you are born (well, there's magic, etc...), but when you die you are just a 'spirit' so you can take on any form you want... and the elven gods say 'you have to look like us to get in the door', even though how something looks in an afterlife is absolutely meaningless.
What if I was a human that identified as an elf? I think we need to protest Arvandor!
You know the old saying "Beauty is only skin deep"... Lolth & Gruumsh saw right through Corellon's so-called "beauty" and saw the monster lurking within... A twisted, corrupt being consumed by narcissistic aesthetics that unleashed genocidal curses upon the Drow & tried to blind and scar the noble orc god that tried shield Lolth from Corellons abusive need for another "trophy" wife to add to his harem of elven godesses!
Corellon's immortal tyranny will fall! One day his illusions will shatter, and he will be forced to gaze upon the ugliness in his heart! |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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What happens after a half-elf dies?
