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mastermustard
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 05:53:26
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I noticed that the tone of most novels from that edition changed significantly. There were fewer happy endings, everyone seemed to be carrying some heavy emotional baggage.
The Haunted Lands trilogy is the first time that I can remember reading about rape in a D&D novel. I'm sure that rape is a common occurrence in the Realms as it is a medievalish war-filled setting where the powerful do as they please to the weak, but in a novel it is definitely a device to make the setting seem darker and more mature.
I also really got Eberron vibe from 4e, and the world of Eberron is much more somber and gritty than I'm used to the Realms being.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 10:03:39
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| I only read two of the 4E novels, and they had a kind of post-apocalyptic feel, to me. That's a lot of why I didn't read more of them. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 14:22:02
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| Really depends on the novels, honestly. I mean I read the Blades of the Moonsea trilogy and I thought it was great. Ends on a fairly high note too. The same thing with the Shadowbane series, great read and while it ends sort of ambiguously it's not overly somber or sad. I think the Haunted Lands trilogy, specifically, is very dark because 1.) Thay and 2.) Undead themed. I mean Thay in pre-4e wasn't a land of flowers and sunshine. I imagined it to be pretty grim and overly depressing and that's before it turned into Zombieland. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 14:52:37
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I read the Blades of the Moonsea, and I liked it. It felt a lot like the Realms we all know and love.
I read one 4e Elminster novel, and an anthology, and the former made me sad, and the latter just didn't feel anything like anything I'd recognize (there was even an Abeir story in there I refused to read).
I don't know about 'Grimdark' - I suppose, if you just go by what happened and some of the new groups that showed up it would appear that way (Cthulhu, Attack on Titan, The Evil Dead, etc), and the fact it had a "where have all the heroes gone?" vibe. I suppose if I were a new fan to the setting that may have been my first impression.
But as a long-time fan, the only thing that jumped out at me was "YOU MANIACS! YOU BLEW IT UP! AH, DAMN YOU! GOD DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!!" (with apologies to Charlton Heston). It was more along the feeling of losing a loved one, then 'grimdark'; at least for me.
But I can totally see your point about thats what they were aiming for (and now all those 'New Coke' arguments are suddenly springing back to mind - I had actually forgotten about those).
Can't we just for once 'be over' 4e? I hate thinking about it. That wound has finally closed, but it was painful, and had gone septic, and we almost lost the patient. Its left a nasty scar, and thats more than enough reminder of it all.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 15:28:11
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quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
I noticed that the tone of most novels from that edition changed significantly. There were fewer happy endings, everyone seemed to be carrying some heavy emotional baggage.
The Haunted Lands trilogy is the first time that I can remember reading about rape in a D&D novel. I'm sure that rape is a common occurrence in the Realms as it is a medievalish war-filled setting where the powerful do as they please to the weak, but in a novel it is definitely a device to make the setting seem darker and more mature.
I also really got Eberron vibe from 4e, and the world of Eberron is much more somber and gritty than I'm used to the Realms being.
Just gotta say, I'm rereading the Haunted Lands Trilogy right now (I just started the 3rd one... about 50 pages in). Its amazing how much you forget (also amazing to me that almost a decade has passed since these came out). I'll say again that I don't like what happens in those novels, but I like the writing. The personification of some of the Zulkirs too was well done. Rereading it makes me want to find a way to have Lallara back too. Snippy little beyotch that she is. But, I can always duplicate her self-important attitude with a different Zulkir or another school. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 21:24:25
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quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
I noticed that the tone of most novels from that edition changed significantly. There were fewer happy endings, everyone seemed to be carrying some heavy emotional baggage.
The Haunted Lands trilogy is the first time that I can remember reading about rape in a D&D novel. I'm sure that rape is a common occurrence in the Realms as it is a medievalish war-filled setting where the powerful do as they please to the weak, but in a novel it is definitely a device to make the setting seem darker and more mature.
I also really got Eberron vibe from 4e, and the world of Eberron is much more somber and gritty than I'm used to the Realms being.
Perhaps, but if you compare them to "real" grimdark fantasy novels then they fell pathetically short. Grimdark (to me at least) is more than just throwing in more adult language and themes. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 24 Apr 2017 21:25:04 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 23:00:23
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Yeah, I'm just not getting that 'grunge' feeling like I do with other stories of that type. You know, that everything is dirty and filthy and even your soul will never get clean - a 'world without hope' kind of feeling. Just not seeing it. More like a Transformers movie - lots of explosions with no actual point, and in the end we still have shiny robots.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just gotta say, I'm rereading the Haunted Lands Trilogy right now (I just started the 3rd one... about 50 pages in). Its amazing how much you forget (also amazing to me that almost a decade has passed since these came out). I'll say again that I don't like what happens in those novels, but I like the writing. The personification of some of the Zulkirs too was well done. Rereading it makes me want to find a way to have Lallara back too. Snippy little beyotch that she is. But, I can always duplicate her self-important attitude with a different Zulkir or another school.
Ummmm... clones?
And if there is some sort of 'timeline' problem (haven't gotten around reading those - I have to correct that soon), you could just say some of the weirdness with the Spellplague prevented the clone from waking up until very recently. No need to go and create a new character. This is the Realms after all - nobody ever dies forever.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2017 : 23:54:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, I'm just not getting that 'grunge' feeling like I do with other stories of that type. You know, that everything is dirty and filthy and even your soul will never get clean - a 'world without hope' kind of feeling. Just not seeing it. More like a Transformers movie - lots of explosions with no actual point, and in the end we still have shiny robots.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just gotta say, I'm rereading the Haunted Lands Trilogy right now (I just started the 3rd one... about 50 pages in). Its amazing how much you forget (also amazing to me that almost a decade has passed since these came out). I'll say again that I don't like what happens in those novels, but I like the writing. The personification of some of the Zulkirs too was well done. Rereading it makes me want to find a way to have Lallara back too. Snippy little beyotch that she is. But, I can always duplicate her self-important attitude with a different Zulkir or another school.
Ummmm... clones?
And if there is some sort of 'timeline' problem (haven't gotten around reading those - I have to correct that soon), you could just say some of the weirdness with the Spellplague prevented the clone from waking up until very recently. No need to go and create a new character. This is the Realms after all - nobody ever dies forever.
Yeah, I'm already doing the clone thing with Lauzoril (granted, his clone will have awakened in Abeir <long story>), plus I THINK (rereading HL trilogy to catch any assumptions I'm making... plus for fun) when they went into the area that Tam had prepp'd there was some "you're no longer connected to the outside world and if you die here its permanent because your soul can't escape" statement. I could be wrong... 9 years does that to me.
that also being said, I also want to look at how she died (when I get to that point again... yeah, I know its the last couple pages), because some of the Zulkir's deaths weren't definite (for instance, I think Lauzoril was just told to jump off a cliff, which he could easily survive with feather fall/fly/etc...). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 11:30:08
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4e had a vision: Lands of deep darkness where terrible threat laid in wait, plotting to destroy life. But there was hope: Small bastions of goodness and civilisation where heroes (the PCs) would sally forth from to attempt to defeat the darkness.
Grimdark games do not have these bastions. Life is always terrible, all of the time and everything is trying to kill you. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 12:36:27
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LOL - 'Grimdark' is ALL badness, ALL the time... with 'points of slightly less badness' (A PoSLB setting?)
@Sleyvas - if you think anything you can come up with to save characters YOU like will be half as bad as what some of the authors came up with to save all their characters, you are sadly mistaken. Its like they weren't even trying. I think I'd rather have seen them kill everyone off, then the piles of plot-armor they ladled onto them. Mirt coming back was my breaking point - haven't read an FR book since. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 16:26:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
LOL - 'Grimdark' is ALL badness, ALL the time... with 'points of slightly less badness' (A PoSLB setting?)
@Sleyvas - if you think anything you can come up with to save characters YOU like will be half as bad as what some of the authors came up with to save all their characters, you are sadly mistaken. Its like they weren't even trying. I think I'd rather have seen them kill everyone off, then the piles of plot-armor they ladled onto them. Mirt coming back was my breaking point - haven't read an FR book since.
Yeah, I'm actually playing with the idea of "what happens if the Lauzoril that was in Toril and the Lauzoril that was a clone awakened by an avatar of Velsharoon in Abeir now appear in the same world". I know some will see this as copying what happened with Manshoon, but I'd like to do a different sping here. I think it could be interesting if both appear but aren't immediately driven to kill each other (a further blessing of what Velsharoon did in severing the spirits... which as a god of necromancy he may be better at than some). The one in Abeir still has his children. The one in Toril has had to deal with their disappearance for a century. Could this be turned into some kind of plot device in which I have these United Tharchs of Toril from Abeir aligning with lands that have exiled red wizards that were in places like the Alaor/Wizard's Reach/Mulmaster and surrounding enclaves, etc.... I think so, but I haven't really thought it through.
Neither Lauzoril would want to stand down for the other as Zulkir, but my governmental structure for the United Tharchs also has there being more like a "council" for each school of magic (using the term Zulkir for the "spokesman" and whose vote counts more and Aulkir for the "local" expert/spokesman for the school in a given tharch). I wrote it up such that a Zulkirs vote counts as 3 Aulkir votes... in order encourage cooperation and strengthening of the United Tharchs, it could be that both Zulkirs of Enchantment agree to instead have their votes count as two each (thus gaining slightly more power for that school in the end, on those occasions where both "Lauzoril's" agree on what should be done). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 17:10:49
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| What if the two Lauzorils agreed to work together and -- most importantly -- keep to themselves the fact that there were two of them? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 19:59:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What if the two Lauzorils agreed to work together and -- most importantly -- keep to themselves the fact that there were two of them?
My initial reaction was "neat idea", but then I'm thinking about the reality of the situation. Everyone in the United Tharchs of Toril that was in Abeir KNOWS that Lauzoril has been the Zulkir of Enchantment for the last century. Similarly, IF the Zulkir of Enchantment actually survived the encounter with Szass Tam, unless he went into hiding for the last ten years, the people on the Alaor and Wizard's Reach would know he's around. The only option I can see that would allow for what your propose would be if the Lauzoril that didn't go to Abeir has been in hiding for the last ten years....... which I GUESS the Lauzoril who was the awakened clone in Abeir just MIGHT be the only one who'd know where to find him..... Damn you Wooly, now you've got my head spinning with ideas..... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2017 : 22:08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Damn you Wooly, now you've got my head spinning with ideas.....
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2017 : 03:52:10
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quote:
Originally posted by mastermustard
I noticed that the tone of most novels from that edition changed significantly. There were fewer happy endings, everyone seemed to be carrying some heavy emotional baggage.
[...] but in a novel it is definitely a device to make the setting seem darker and more mature.
I think it's mostly the effect rather than cause. Maybe there was a policy encouraging it, but it's a part of the larger picture too - it's always possible to make up some sort of a single deeper overarching purpose on which such processes can be pinned, but this misses several points.
And does this in the way closely resembling a description of abusive relationship.
quote:
I also really got Eberron vibe from 4e, and the world of Eberron is much more somber and gritty than I'm used to the Realms being.
Not counting Salvatore's "Emo Teen Conan Saga" occasionally dipping into grimderp? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2017 : 04:02:40
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A Lauzoril walks into a bar and sits down next to a Manshoon. Manshoon looks over and says, "same old, same old?" Lauzoril says, "Its one goddamn thing after another".
Bartender Jango Fett turns to both of them, "No! A thousand times no!"
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2017 : 10:18:59
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
4e had a vision: Lands of deep darkness where terrible threat laid in wait, plotting to destroy life. But there was hope: Small bastions of goodness and civilisation where heroes (the PCs) would sally forth from to attempt to defeat the darkness.
Grimdark games do not have these bastions. Life is always terrible, all of the time and everything is trying to kill you.
Pretty much. I think Dark Souls is a good example here |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2017 : 17:55:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
A Lauzoril walks into a bar and sits down next to a Manshoon. Manshoon looks over and says, "same old, same old?" Lauzoril says, "Its one goddamn thing after another".
Bartender Jango Fett turns to both of them, "No! A thousand times no!"
Lol
Manshoon then asks, "So, what's Szass Tam look like this week? Is he a fleshless skeleton again or back to a Mulan look with just a whiff of death covered by perfume?"
Lauzoril says, "Man, all I know is that from what I saw in touching the mind of Velsharoon, Tam's got a rude awakening coming." Lauzoril then looks at Jango Fett, snaps his fingers and says, "Hey, you look familiar, didn't I hire you to capture someone once?" |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2017 : 02:34:04
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just gotta say, I'm rereading the Haunted Lands Trilogy right now (I just started the 3rd one... about 50 pages in). Its amazing how much you forget (also amazing to me that almost a decade has passed since these came out).
Isn't that insane? The 3e-4e transition was about ten years ago now, geeze... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
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Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2017 : 03:49:31
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oh my gosh.....
do my eyes deceive me?
that looked like Lord Karsus... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2017 : 03:32:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just gotta say, I'm rereading the Haunted Lands Trilogy right now (I just started the 3rd one... about 50 pages in). Its amazing how much you forget (also amazing to me that almost a decade has passed since these came out).
Isn't that insane? The 3e-4e transition was about ten years ago now, geeze...
I know, its weird for me to think that the 5e rollout happened more than 2 years ago now. Time flies and I'm so busy on work and my real life that I keep getting sidetracked. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 01:32:47
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| Funny thing is some people used the term Grimdark to mock the name Shadowdark which is the Shadowfell's Underdark, which did appear in the Broken Chain novels. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 02:06:55
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More like 'Grimlark'.
But I actually really like the Shadowdark, mostly because I was already using it - its basically the same as the Underland in Beyond Countless Doorways, which is how I theorize the Underdark races spread throughout the multiverse (including the Drow, which DID start on Toril). In Greyhawk lore, the one major drow city that we knew of was Erelhei Cinlu, and it also appeared in a 2e FR source, and in 4e it was mentioned as being in Nerath (the Nentir Valley setting). (Homebrew) Truth: The city is actually in the Underlands, with a major connection to Oerth, a minor connection to Nerath, and a intermittant/broken connection to Toril (drow from Toril unknowingly entered the Shadowdark and built their city, thinking they were still in 'The Realms'). After that pathway was cut-off for some reason (maybe when the Weave collapse during Karsus' Folly?), they discovered another route up to the surface (Oerth/The Flanaess), and even eventually another route (Nerath). They have no idea that it isn't all the same world - from their point of view - knowing almost nothing about the surface - they think they just keep coming up in different spots on the same continent.
At some point they still had trade with Torillian Drow cities, and you could easily say that's the case again in 5e. After all, not everything has to revolve around Menzoberranzan (that's actually a fairly minor drow city that's just famous because of its one former occupant). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 May 2017 02:10:29 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2017 : 04:10:26
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| would make sense, since it is stated that the deepest regions of the underdark were said ot contain portals to the plane of shadow/shadowfel and that you could cross into it without knowing it. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Were the 4e Realms an attempt at 'grimdark'?
