Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Latest official podcast: Lathander & Amaunator
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 6

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  04:25:59  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pelor connections I know of:
Faiths and Avatars has a very similar symbol for both gods. Counterpoint: they're still a bit different in design.
In Power of Faerun, Daelegoth Orndeir finds a relic of Amaunator called the Shard of the Sun (from Complete Divine) - which is an artifact of Pelor in that book. Counterpoint: the item should be assumed to be reworked for FR.
Image of priest people have noted in GHotR. Counterpoint: reused art.
SCAG: Amaunator's holy symbol is exactly the 4e "First World" Pelor symbol on top of the 4e symbol for Amaunator.

I doubt there will ever be anything concrete in canon about it, but it's an interesting idea to play with. The gods are quite different in outlook of course - but gods are beyond mortal understanding, right? :P

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  04:37:29  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
^Right lol.

Certain things are canon and have stayed fairly consistent, but other things are vague or glossed over completely (especially now). And, as Markustay said, not even the gods know everything that is going on. This is evident during the recent Sundering, when they weren't sure what was happening, which is part of the reason Chosen of various deities were appearing.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  05:27:41  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is only ONE of each artifact - thats been the same down through the editions (although one might argue there is supposed to only be one Terrasque, as well). You might spin it that an artifact could 'possibly be' associated with a similar god in different Crystal Spheres, but from everything else I've ever seen (and I've been around this game since 1975), an artifact - or 'relic' in the case of divine versions - remain TRUE to whatever being created them, regardless of sphere (for instance, the Hand and Eye of Vecna would still be those things, and would never be associated with Velsharoon... or Acerak). When an artifact has served its purpose (whatever mysterious purpose it appeared for), it disappears, and reappears somewhere else, and not necessarily on the same world.

If anything I would thinks thats proof positive right there Pelor has some sort of presence in The Realms, even if he isn't any of FR's sun gods. I've just been 'playing' with the idea all this time, throwing out 'what if' scenarios, but that right there makes me go, "Hmmmmm..."

Here's an interesting factoid - all of the original D&D artifacts were connected with Greyhawk, simply because that was the ONLY AD&D world TSR was publishing in 1e. But when the 2e Book of Artifacts came out, quite a lot of them ended up in FR - especially the 'eastern' ones. The artifacts CAN 'change worlds', but their function and history remain intact, no matter what.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

He has a summer home?

And Mystra is Wee Jas.

Just did a quick search of Pholtus. Not a lot there, but he does have 'light' in his portfolio, which I was unaware of. Still not a 'sun god' though, and THAT is the main reason for connecting Pelor and Aumanator.



Pholtus has the sun as part of his portfolio.

I just double-checked, and you are right.
How the heck did I miss that the first time through? I was consciously looking for it!

Strangely, I can't even find a GH page on the poor bastich - the two I've checked; one was for Planescape, and the other was for converting Oerth/GH to Pathfinder (so I can't trust the portfolios on that one, since its conversion material). Now Pelor, you can find TONS of stuff on.

He's Pelorific.

No-one liked my spin on Aumanator as Horus-Re? Heck, at least I got feedback on him as Pelor. Just goes to show, people don't give an Osquip's arse what you do to the poor Old Empires.

What if Aum WAS Pholtus in GH, and in 5e he's handed over all of that to Pelor, and the deal was that he would take over Pelor's budding church in the Realms (of course, I'm now tying this to my Nentir Vale conversion - sorry). With all the chaos we've had in the past hundred years or so (more, if you go back to the ToT), I think Ao has more of an 'open door' policy toward in interloping than he ever had in the past, and with all the land and people getting swapped about, pelor - along with dozens of other gods - may have gotten their foot in the door that way, because some of their faithful wound up on Toril (and not necessarily from Oerth - Pelor went multispheric in 4e, because he was 'core', just like Bane).

So even if you don't like the Nentir Vale material and don't plan to use any of that, you can just figure enough Pelorites 'got through', to make Aumanator notice, and perhaps want them to start his 'return'. As I said, tons of different ways to spin it - the lore is fairly modular these days. Take what you like, and leave the rest. Personally, I've never not allowed any gods to be worshiped, in any setting I've run (under several different systems). The more the merrier, I say. My son ran a cleric of Kord back in 3.5, and now I have canonical excuse for his presence in the Realms (we have a canonical excuse for EVERYTHING now, even different versions of the same gods).

I guess FR has become the a'la carte setting.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2017 14:57:31
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  06:47:21  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Added references to the first 4 pages of my Amaunator compilation, for those interested. I'll finish off referencing it over the next couple days.

For another cray theory, how about if the "First World" Pelor of the Nentir Vale setting fractured himself when he started focusing on other worlds? Oerth got all the "good" bits, whereas Abeir-Toril got the side of him which is obsessed with keeping things in order (like hiding away shards of the Living Gate)?

Or another cray theory: Lathander hasn't returned - the new guy is Pelor, and he's stealing Lathander's name!

So many cray theories in my head right now...

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  14:09:36  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Document on the Faith of Amaunator complete. Collects info from 23 sources, all referenced. Some extra stuff of my own, but easy to tell from the other stuff because it's unreferenced. Hope it's of use!

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  15:21:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just noting couple things here.

Netheril falls, roughly around that time Amaunator begins to weaken... same time Lathander and Tyr both start to strengthen.... then ToT happens and within 20 years Amaunator starts to strengthen... Spellplague... Lathander and Tyr both disappear again.... Sundering... Amaunator weakening and Lathander and Tyr reappear.

Both instances as well, around this time, a "Loki-like" deity was gaining a strong foothold (Valigan Thirdborn around the time of arrival of Tyr and Cyric during the time of upheaval).

On the Tyche/Tymora/Beshaba thing... assuming that the god was actually split rather than some alternative, wonder if Beshaba holds any feelings for her "Daddy"... Moander.

Lastly, there's several references to Selune hurling light all over. It kind of makes me wonder if (unlike in our world), the moon actually generates light... such that if the sun were to burn out, there would still be light but no heat.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  15:36:22  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting. We don't really know if Amaunator is weakening again now, but it makes sense with Lathander's faith making a return, no matter what you think of their relationship.

As far as Tyr goes, I'm not sure exactly what happened - the 4e FRCG says he perished "decades ago" defending the upper planes against demons. The use of "decades ago" instead of "a century ago" like most other references leads me to believe Tyr perished sometime more around 1420-1440ish. Not that that affects your theory at all, just an interesting point of difference to most other gods that disappeared in the Spellplague.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  15:47:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That would be the simplest solution - just say 'returned Lathander' is actually Pelor, but timeline-wise that doesn't work because of that stupid pic in the GHotR, which is what got this whole ball started rolling in the first place (back when THAT book came out, which wasn't even 4e - it was late 3e).

Unless, of course, that was Pelor sending some of his priests to FR just to start that heresy. THAT has possibilities...
Does anyone know what happened to Lathander during the ToT?

I like the idea that there are really two Pelors (just like there are two Banes) - there is the 'archtype' sun god, and then there'd be lots of local Pelors, that may or may not be going by that name, in various Crystal Spheres. Heck, Lathander and Aumanator could have just been two different flavors of the same archtype (we have at least one other instance of that - Herne and Malar; Herne appears to be the name of the archtype, and Malar was 'local', although I suppose it could be the other way around).
Hmmmmmm... a stray thought just crossed my mind. I mentioned two different Shevarash earlier (in the thread) - perhaps archtypes' don't even worry about stuff like race, being that they are 'primal' spirits. What if Shevarash was a Chosen of Herne, in his 'Hunter' aspect?

Which brings me to something else I was thinking about as I fell asleep last night - something i touched upon (here or in another thread), but then didn't go any further with: 'multispheric gods'. I am really starting to think there is no such thing. Its very artificial, doesn't really make sense in terms of story, and REALLY doesn't make sense when you start applying rules to everything. Wouldn't it just be easier to say thats a mortal concept, and not a real thing, and just figure we have these 'archtypes' all living in the Planescape setting, and they send various, assorted 'Ubertars' to different worlds, trying to establish (or maintaining) their faith?

Some gods may find it better to focus on one world - 'quality over quantity', while other (like the draconics) would find it better just to 'be everywhere' (like fast-food franchises - no real substance, just 'on every street corner'). Gods wouldn't use a silly term like 'multispheric', because unless they were banned from a very specific area (Sigil, Toril, Athas, etc) by an Overpower, they can come and go anywhere in the multiverse as they please. They'd just be affected by the 'Dogma' (I've discussed that elsewhere - basically, 'mortal belief' actually shapes reality) of each Domain they enter (be it Sphere, godly demesne, or plane). Thus, in most cases, its WAY safer to just stick to one world, where you can shape that belief system over the course of countless millennia.

These arguments might be easier if we just toss that concept out, and assume all the gods are just one huge group, and things like pantheons and religions are mortal conceits (fostered by gods with agendas). There is but one 'Bane' in Planescape (The Great Wheel), and one 'Pelor', etc., and FR has (at least) one 'Baneling' and GH has a 'Peloring'. Instead of thinking about these gods through the distorted lens of their settings, why not just assume that ALL setting versions of a deity are not the real ones? They are all just aspects sent to those worlds, and on some, they might have different aspects, due to the nature of that world, or the other deities interested in it. And they could even have VERY different aspects - even to the point of fighting - if it serves their purposes to do so.

'The Gods' are nothing more than a bunch of super-powered maniacs that are playing a vast 'chess' game with mortals (and worlds), and some are playing 'the long game', while others just want to sow chaos (we've all played with people like that). They send little bits of their power into mortals, causing their ascension (exarchs), and if any of these 'work out' (gain their own followers and churches eventually), they 'reel them back in' and have a new power source for their 'eternal game' (like when you grab 'resources hexes' in a game - thats what worlds would be to them). So maybe we should just forget about Pelor being from GH, and Bane being from FR, and just consider Planescape/The Great Wheel the TRUE setting, and everything else is just "The God's Playground". We'd have no way of knowing who's who from day to day, because the deities could strike deals and it could all change (some might stay the same for thousands of years, while others would revel in the chaos of switching identities, worlds, and even portfolios constantly).Its like when countries swap tracks of land (or it gets taken over) - the people living there usually barely notice the change; they just continue to go about their lives like they always did.

And one last thing - gods who get to used to this 'fragmented' stand the risk of 'losing themselves', going crazy and/or dropping off into a comatose state. This is what i think happened to the World Serpen...
I just though of something! Shattered/Sundered 'First World', fragmented World Serpent! I've been calling that dimension/Ordial/Siderial/'Elder god' 'The Ymir' in my musings, but it already had a name all along! The 3rd dimension - the 'material Plane' - is really the World Serpent. We have to look past the 'racial trappings' and realize all these uber-gods are really just so much energy (and in this case, matter). What the Giants (and later mortals) have called 'Ymir' has really been what the scalyfolk have referred to as The world Serpent all along - the half-dead, shattered remnants of the first Overgod death.

Thus, in a weird way, true Dragons are all Chosen - they contain tiny little bits of the 'god energy' of the comatose World Serpent. They'd be like DvR 0, and Lung (Asian) dragons would be a little higher (and some might actually make it into the true godly ranks).

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Document on the Faith of Amaunator complete. Collects info from 23 sources, all referenced. Some extra stuff of my own, but easy to tell from the other stuff because it's unreferenced. Hope it's of use!

You ARE nuts... but in a good way.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2017 15:49:57
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  16:12:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hadn't meant for that to be anywhere near that long - sorry, guys. Once my brain latches on to a new thought I just run away with it.

The one thing I forgot was power levels - I would imagine only Greater Gods would do the 'multispheric' thing, simply because they have the raw power to send individual Avatars to different worlds, wthout worrying about getting destroyed.

Gods of lesser power could do so, but they run the risk of getting permanently destroyed (well, as permanent as such things get in the D&Dverse). I believe the rule was that they get one Avatar for each point of DvR, so if a lesser god - lets say with a DvR of just '6' - attempted this, then they'd be without that one 'pip' of power... making them only a '5' and of demipower status 'at home'. Plus, the higher the level the god, the easier it would be for them to recover from losing one of these Avatars (that DvR point of power). They could 'heal' it quicker, because their churches (or what their portfolios cover) are so vast.

So lets say Bane DID start out in The Forgotten Realms. I know everyone here is happy with that synopsis. He's not the type of guy to 'settle' for anything. He'd bide his time and wait until he was of greater God status, and then try to spread to other worlds. All that makes perfect sense - he may have only just started 'making moves' in 'The Great Game' just around the time of 1e. And am I the only one who thinks he is exactly the same as Hextor (in GH)? I recall reading in the early 4e stuff (those 'intro' books - you remember those, right? Giant advertisements that WotC forced us to buy, thinking they were actual game-books, rather than them just bragging about how 'kewl' they were?) that 'Bane' was just their placeholder name for a 4e archtype 'god of tyranny', and in the end, they just kept it (even though he wasn't exactly the same as FR's Bane... {sigh}) Why the hell didn't they use Hextor, who was the same thing, and ALREADY CORE because of 3e? Did no-one who works there even consider Hextor? Or did they just hate-on GH just as much (if not more) than they did FR?

Was everything screwed-up JUST because someone over there liked the name 'Bane' better than 'Hextor'?

Micro-rant over. Sorry. Thats been sticking in my craw for a decade now.


Aside:
Oh... and by the way... my money is on Bane and Hextor also being the same guy, or rather, they have both come from the same 'archtype' (which may actually be Gruumsh/Talos). Hextor is just a more 'primitive' version of the archtype - we still have the 'orc' thing going on, but he's almost more like a 'dire orc'.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2017 16:53:18
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  18:05:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Interesting. We don't really know if Amaunator is weakening again now, but it makes sense with Lathander's faith making a return, no matter what you think of their relationship.

As far as Tyr goes, I'm not sure exactly what happened - the 4e FRCG says he perished "decades ago" defending the upper planes against demons. The use of "decades ago" instead of "a century ago" like most other references leads me to believe Tyr perished sometime more around 1420-1440ish. Not that that affects your theory at all, just an interesting point of difference to most other gods that disappeared in the Spellplague.



No, I do believe they specifically show his death when the seven heavens are invaded just following the spellplague in the novel series involving Vhok and the alu-demon (wherein they also have a priest of Cyric).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  20:05:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, just because FR's Tyr 'died' doesn't mean other versions of him also died. The multiverse is a BIG place, and there's plenty of room for little 'Tyrlings' to be hiding-out.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2017 20:25:39
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  20:14:10  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Interesting. We don't really know if Amaunator is weakening again now, but it makes sense with Lathander's faith making a return, no matter what you think of their relationship.

As far as Tyr goes, I'm not sure exactly what happened - the 4e FRCG says he perished "decades ago" defending the upper planes against demons. The use of "decades ago" instead of "a century ago" like most other references leads me to believe Tyr perished sometime more around 1420-1440ish. Not that that affects your theory at all, just an interesting point of difference to most other gods that disappeared in the Spellplague.



No, I do believe they specifically show his death when the seven heavens are invaded just following the spellplague in the novel series involving Vhok and the alu-demon (wherein they also have a priest of Cyric).



Empyrean Odyssey, and I seem to remember them showing his death, too, or at least the invasion of his realm.

Tyr, like the others, is alive again in 5e, listed again as the god of justice.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  20:28:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Tyr, like the others, is alive again in 5e, listed again as the god of justice.
OR MAYBE, just like the grammatical error that caused problems for Aumanator ("for all time"), Tyr is really just supposed to be the god of "Just Ice" - he's a freaking' deity of cold!

I need to take my ADHD meds now...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2017 :  00:46:17  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Interesting. We don't really know if Amaunator is weakening again now, but it makes sense with Lathander's faith making a return, no matter what you think of their relationship.

As far as Tyr goes, I'm not sure exactly what happened - the 4e FRCG says he perished "decades ago" defending the upper planes against demons. The use of "decades ago" instead of "a century ago" like most other references leads me to believe Tyr perished sometime more around 1420-1440ish. Not that that affects your theory at all, just an interesting point of difference to most other gods that disappeared in the Spellplague.



No, I do believe they specifically show his death when the seven heavens are invaded just following the spellplague in the novel series involving Vhok and the alu-demon (wherein they also have a priest of Cyric).


Ah. Good to know. That trilogy's next on my list... that is, after I finish the Sundering, Brimstone Angels, and the Avatar Quintilogy...

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2017 :  03:33:04  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for the relationship between Amaunator and Eldath, I did a bit more searching...
There is a Garden of Eldath in the Gulthmere Forest near the Vilhon Reach (Cormanthyr-EoE). It's also mentioned that Eldath's "True Grove" can be reached from "various locales in Turmish", as opposed to listing only one locale for most other areas (F&A). Cedarspoke in the Vilhon Reach is also associated with a bastion of Eldath's faith. Although her "Favoured Regions" in the FRCS does not include some areas she is commonly associated with such as the Forest of Tethir, it does include The North, the Vast, and the Vilhon Reach.
The Bedine have a legend that At'ar imprisoned Eldath because she was jealous of her beauty (Anauroch).
Her later faith was known to be small and dispersed (F&A). In fact, Eldath is only a Demipower in 1356 (OGB), though she receives a boost from an unknown source by the time of F&A. She was also True Neutral back in the day, now she's NG since she moved the True Grove to Elysium.
There's also this in SoFS, which creates a connection to Umberlee's wrath (which could be connected to the Jhaamdath tidal wave):
quote:
An old mythic tale within the oral traditions of both the whales and some worshipers of Eldath names the full moon as Olone, a former lover of the Green Goddess. He was once a mortal merman who fought Umberlee to protect his lover from her wrath, and she evilly changed him into a bubble to rise up, far away from his beloved ocean. Olone and Eldath remain ever apart, but his staring eye coolly lights the depths without disturbing them as he watches his love. Even when worshipers of Selūne try to educate them otherwise about the moon and godly powers, they cling to this old romantic myth, and the whalesongs about Olone also keep the name alive.

We also know that druids of Eldath are still active in the Vilhon Reach in 75 DR (Vilhon Reach).

Theory: Eldath is a god of Jhaamdath, the current Vilhon Reach. Amaunator, bitter after his faithful abandon him in the fall of Netheril, sees many of them flee to Jhaamdath and embrace the faith of Eldath. In his bitterness, as one of his final strong actions, he binds Eldath away in the House of the Moon (Elah'zad). Soon after, Lathander encourages Dharien to build a new world, enraging the elves, who use the power of Umberlee to flood Jhaamdath. This destroys one god of Jhaamdath - Murdane - and it would have taken out Eldath too, if Amaunator had not bound her away (from this the legend of Olone is born). However, as Amaunator's power wanes he struggles to contain the goddess, and she frees herself not long after the flood.

Edit: the story of Amaunator being jealous of Eldath's beauty doesn't really fit his profile very well - perhaps Eldath was becoming worshipped in Netheril before the Fall, and Amaunator more became jealous of her rising influence.

Edit 2: The 75 DR bit in the Vilhon Reach is also the first timeline reference we have for Eldath (unless we assume the At'ar-Eldath story is true and took place while Netheril still stood, but it may be from the period of Amaunator's decline). With the first record of her appearing in the Vilhon Reach, that's another point towards her being a deity of Jhaamdath.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 25 Apr 2017 05:09:41
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2017 :  16:57:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, just because FR's Tyr 'died' doesn't mean other versions of him also died. The multiverse is a BIG place, and there's plenty of room for little 'Tyrlings' to be hiding-out.





Oh yeah, his "death" weighs nothing. I also wonder if he actually "died". Some of the gods that "died" may have all been some kind of serious intrigue (maybe even against their will), in which they actually transferred to Abeir. As I've said, I'm big on the idea that most of the "gods" that disappeared went over to Abeir for one reason or another. Tyr "killing" Helm may very well have been a great lie, aided by Leira and Mask possibly (and to the surprise of Cyric). Tyr dying may also have been a great lie. Lathander's leaving to be replaced by Amaunator may have been a lie. Savras' "death" in dweomerheart may have been a lie. Hell, the whole Bane / Xvim thing could have been Xvim posing as Bane in Toril, meanwhile the weakened Bane went to Abeir whenever "the Black Lord's Cloak" temple in Mourktar was transferred to Abeir (and possibly the tyrant "Gilgeam"/"Son of Victory" that's returned to Unther has some ties to Bane).

This gives me the option of having many deities to work with over in Abeir for the last hundred years. Just to note them I'm listing them below:

Helm (Heimdall)
Tyr
Lathander
Talos
Leira
Savras
Velsharoon (long story)
Mystra (weakened but there)
Deneir
Bane
Nobanion
The elemental lords will be in both worlds, but neutral still (Kossuth, Grumbar, Istishia, and Akadi)

I'll also be including the Mulhorandi Pantheon as noted below, while leaving it unclear if some of these deities are other deities (i.e. is Geb actually Plutoq or Grumbar).

Anhur (L): God of war, conflict, physical prowess, thunder, rain
Geb (L): God of the earth, miners, mines, mineral resources
Hathor (L): Goddess of motherhood, folk music, dance, the moon, fate
Horus (G): reverting back to his old role
Isis (also called Ishtar)[12] (I): Goddess of weather, rivers, agriculture, love, marriage, good magic
Nephthys (I): Goddess of wealth, trade, protector of children and the dead
Osiris (I): God of vegetation, death, the dead, justice, harvest
Sebek (D): God of river hazards, crocodiles, werecrocodiles, wetlands
Set (I): God of the desert, destruction, drought, night, rot, snakes, hate, betrayal, evil magic, ambition, poison, murder
Thoth (I): God of neutral magic, scribes, knowledge, invention, secrets

and also including Re, reborn, in his old role as ruler of the Pantheon.



I'll also be including the Maztican deities (and leaving it unclear if some of them ARE the elemental lords or vice versa, or separate entities)

Azul (also called Calor): God of rain, water, drunkenness
Eha: Goddess of the wind, spring
Kiltzi: God of health, love, happiness, children
Maztica: Goddess of life and the physical world, she is no longer dead
Nula: Goddess of animals
Plutoq: God of earth, stone, mountains
Qotal: God of goodness, health, protection
Tezca: God of the sun, fire, cooking
Watil: Goddess of plants
Zaltec: God of war, sacrifice

I'd also include some of the "Great Spirits" from the Azuposi of Anchorome
Corn Mother (a bird-woman deity that I equate as being from the aearee)
Moon Mother
Shotokunungwa (whom the Metahel refer to as Thoros, and whose two war twins children in their view are the daughters of Sifya)
Skeleton Man (whom the Mulan think is Jergal)
Sun Father (who everyone has another name for)
Miochin, the embodiment of Summer (whom the Naticans think is Intiri)

Paiyatemu, the Sun Youth/Trickster (a child of the Sun and a mortal woman (the sun "touched her in her sleep), who is a troublesome trickster whose stories are coarse but humorous..... picture Loki before he turned evil. The suppositions about this being are numerous across the various "pantheons" that transferred over.

Shakak, the embodiment of winter (whom I have as a primordial of cold whom the Mulans capture and imprison up near Balduran Bay/Fort Flame)


I'll also be including the sun god Intiri of the Natican folk of Lopango, with various folk wondering if he is just a powerful primordial, and others thinking he is a godly manifestation like the gods of Mulhorand were.

I'm also including several Metahel deities that the Faerunians THINK are various Faerunian deities... and they may be right, or they may be wrong... for instance, this is what I started writing up for the Tharch of the Western Pridelands regarding religion..


In addition, when the metahel travelled with the mulan peoples to leave the Lopango Jungles, the mulan people had been exposed to the Metahel religion. In particular, they held several deities that the mulan people equated to deities of the Faerunian pantheon, and wherever there are temples to one deity in this tharch, there is also a shrine to his/her alternate name. For instance, Sifya, the War Mother, is the Metahel goddess of excellence in battle, and is often associated to the red berries of the rowan ash tree. The mulan people equate this to their goddess known as the Red Knight. The husband of Sifya in the Metahel pantheon is a jealous, raging Thunder god named Thoros, whom the mulan people equate to Talos. The goddess Eldunna, she who grows magical healing mangos with the waters of the goldenheart spring, is thought to be the peace goddess, Eldath. Fraeyollo, lord of spring plantings and the sun blade, is believed to be Lathander. There is also a sentry of the gods, Hemdahl, who steadfastly guards the heavens and a god of blood oaths, Ultar, whom the mulan people equate to Helm and Tyr. Whether these deities are truly metahel deities answering the prayers of the mulan people or vice versa has been something of a debate over the past century. However, what is known is that these deities continued to grant divine magic even after the transfer to Abeir, and therefore they are unlike the many Faerunian deities who went suddenly silent.



Oh, and on the above, obviously not all of these deities will be in use in the United Tharchs (for instance, I don't see the Mulan people worshipping any of the Mulhorandi gods, except possibly Set). However, the people who still reside in Mourktar/Messemprar and the rest of Unther when it transfers over would worship these deities (as well as some of the folk in the city states of Chessenta that transferred over). Similarly, the Tharch of Lopango my have some of the deities of Maztica imported (Watil and Nula for instance), while calling some of them by "Faerunian" names (i.e. Grumbar/Plutoq).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 25 Apr 2017 17:31:42
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Senior Scribe

441 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2017 :  05:52:11  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always thought Sebek got short end of the deal when it came to the Mulhorandi pantheon. The mythological Sebek is a complex god, while the Mulhorandi Sebek is a weenie.

Pathfinder restored him to his former glory, which is the one I use.
Go to Top of Page

sfdragon
Great Reader

2055 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2017 :  07:55:25  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
is it possible that atar of the bedine is another name from some deity from al-qaadim???

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6094 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2017 :  16:41:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

I always thought Sebek got short end of the deal when it came to the Mulhorandi pantheon. The mythological Sebek is a complex god, while the Mulhorandi Sebek is a weenie.

Pathfinder restored him to his former glory, which is the one I use.



Just curious (because I know Jack about the mythological version of Sebek), what did he really do that was interesting?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2017 :  06:37:34  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thought I would revive this thread, simply to post that I finally finished The Reaver, and I can confirm that it is never confirmed by a godly presence that Lathander and Amaunator are the same or different. The priesthood of Amaunator claims the return of Lathander is a lie, believing in a cycle between the gods that takes centuries if not longer. Stedd meanwhile believes that Amaunator has turned into Lathander, but himself admits that Lathander never tells him anything directly (except for one appearance in the book), and that his interaction with Stedd as Chosen is more through "quickening" Stedd's own thoughts.

My current take:
The sect of Lathander known as the Sunmasters had their origins in Netheril. When Netheril fell, they began to worship the god Lathander (my guess: a Jhaamdathi god) as Amaunator reborn (LEoF). Lathander ponders the potential of this, but is soon distracted with the Dawn Cataclysm, and spends many centuries after that rebuilding the trust of other gods.

Around 1372, Lathander's thoughts have returned to the Sunmasters and the claim that he is Amaunator reborn. He plans to seize the potential within taking the name of Amaunator, who is that point a corpse in the Astral Sea "awaiting a day when some ambitious spirit may help him regain his once-proud heritage" (F&A). He hopes that through taking a new name, he can expand on his faith-base, and perhaps even gain some claim on the portfolios Amaunator once held. Lathander calls his coming "transformation" into Amaunator the Deliverance, hoping it will make him far more powerful - hoping once again to remake the pantheon in his image. He chooses Daelegoth Orndeir to deliver his message of him being reincarnated as Amaunator through the "Risen Sun Heresy" (PoF).

However, Lathander is not always one to think things through, and instead of seizing Amaunator's power he begins to awaken the dead god. Amaunator starts to build power from Daelegoth's miracles in his name in 1374, but remains hidden and silent. Then when Mystra is killed in 1385, Lathander spends much of his power binding Cyric in the Supreme Throne. This weakens him enough for Amaunator to bind Lathander away within his own dominion of the Eternal Sun. As Lathander has already converted most of his priesthood to that of "Amaunator", when Amaunator awakens it is suddenly Lathander without any worshipers, and he is powerless to fight back. Amaunator's clergy, now far more powerful than Lathander's, ensure that worship of Lathander grinds to a trickle throughout the Realms. Lathander had sealed his own fate with the tale of him being Amaunator reborn.

In the Second Sundering, Ao remakes the heavens once more, allowing many "dead" gods to return to the Realms, and Lathander escapes from the Eternal Sun. He sends his power to his mortal Chosen, Stedd, who embarks on renewing his faith throughout the Realms. The clergy of Amaunator remain very opposed to this, but the boy's message of hope and renewal is a powerful one, especially in those lands of the Great Rain where hope is much needed.

Thus, in 5e we have both Lathander and Amaunator. We always did - the cycle is a heresy spread by Lathander, but taken advantage of by Amaunator.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
Go to Top of Page

Mith
Acolyte

USA
3 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2017 :  20:36:51  Show Profile  Send Mith an AOL message Send Mith a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find that in collaborated works such as Forgotten Realms, Star Wars, Star Trek--so on, you tend to get a lot of mistakes and corrections. This newest change will only remain so long as everyone thinks it's in everyone else's best interest. My guess is that Wizards didn't want to remove Amaunator for risk of angering the fans or otherwise felt he filled a role. Therefore, rather than kill off one and bring back another, they've gone with this answer.

My position is that Wizards should take the more fluid stance; Amaunator and Lathander may be the same gods and at times this appears to be the case and other times it does not. Perhaps this is because mortals confuse them or because the two are working together or one is at odds with the other. Or it can literally be true; Lathander or Amaunator may have been aspects of each other and split into two different beings. Or they could have been two originally separate entities who have merged and split--perhaps many times.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 6 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000