Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Latest official podcast: Lathander & Amaunator
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 6

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30340 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  18:04:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not talking about Chosen, or having a date for some event, I'm talking about what you (ad nauseam) refer to as "god nonsense." Deific involvement is something Ed wrote in from the beginning, and you have expressed, time and time again, that you want all of it removed. This thing of turning a Chosen into a mortal and changing the circumstances of their demise is just another part of that.

And it takes away from the lore if the lore says it was a divine champion in a particular situation and you change that to just a regular person and a different situation.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Apr 2017 18:06:41
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  19:45:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Couple of things - I REALLY like what you did there with the theoretical timeline, KanzenAU - good stuff. Spreading the Dawn Cataclysm out over the course of a millennia fixes a boatload of problems (a bit overlong, but I see why, and also, 'a thousand years' seems to be one of those 'ages' deities like things to go by LOL).

My only real problem with it all is the fall of Jhaamdath - weren't the elves responsible for that? I don't recall any canon connection between it and the Dawn Cataclysm. Looking at the timeline, and the regions involved, perhaps the Dathite (I refuse to use 'Chondahan' as racial group - too confusing. You get stupidity like "The Chondathans founded Chondathan" in the history) displaced the Talfir on that side of the Vilhon (canonically they did displace the Turami from the northern part of what is now the know as The Old Empires, on into Turmish). So maybe the Talfir - having connections to Shar through their shadow magic - also had a hand in what happened to Jhaamdath? They may have caused the Elven High Magic Ritual to go awry (and to run with this new theory just a bit - psionic powers seem to be synergistic with Arcane magic, and I don't know of any instance where psionics boosted Shadow magic, so perhaps Shar had some stakes in it as well, not wanting a sudden spike in Mystryl's power due to a rising psionic nation).

So perhaps they were connected, but it would be more along the lines of 'the timing was right', rather than a direct correlation as you put forward (The DC having caused the Tidal Wave... if that were the case, I'd want Umberlee involved somehow...).

As for Moander planning ANYTHING, I'm just not seeing it. He is like Ghaunadaur's 'special' little brother. every time he reawakens, he does the same dumb crap that gets him immediately 'killed' again. I think the very first thing that rotted was his brain.

EDIT: I just thought of something. I've long had a sneaking suspicion that the Insipid Clans (I know its Incipient Clans, but ever since I accidentally called them that I find it amusing to continue to do so) are actually descendants of Jhaamdathi survivors. Now I am thinking, perhaps the Aumar (Aumvor? ) clan was also descended from survivors, because Elminster also has latent psionic abilities (which is why he is even more powerful than other of Mystra's Chosen).

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well i never noticed the bit about the chosen of tyche dying nine times in the coils of moanders avatar.
WAIT... where was that from? I scrolled up but can't seem to find it.

Moander did the 'Tentacle Hentai' thing with Tyche? No wonder the poor girl lost her mind...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Apr 2017 20:04:24
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3547 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  20:14:06  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had never noticed it either but its in one of the text blocks outside the timeline. The one with the picture of a lathanderite priest on it. It mentions the name of the year but not the number and its in the first column about halfway up

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  21:51:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You mean in the GhotR?

I've been researching Pelor, and I found some interesting stuff. He is pretty much the ONLY D&D 'good god' that allowed Half-Orc paladins, and even had at least one become one of his 'Saints' (Chosen). That once again lends credulity to the theory that Bane may have had something to do with Pelor (and Nerull), since we've already figured he's probably a half-orc when mortal (judging by his outward appearance). Unfortunately that wasn't 'Saint Bane', but it was a different one (Jalnir the Gentle), but nothing actually states Bane was human, either. He also had female Saints.

Pelor, BTW, only first started to appear in GH after 376 DR, which means if he was originally Aumantor, and went to Oerth, the timeline checks out. It also says that the events of the Greyhawk wars changed him - he is colder and more distant now (he used to be more like Lathander). Maybe he changed his ways when he got to Oerth, decided to try being a 'nice guy' god, and then after the GH wars he either changed back to how he was originally (he never really changed - underneath he was still the same guy), OR (and this works better for us), he left Greyspace after those wars, and someone else took up the mantle of Pelor. However, I prefer to think that he is multispheric, now.

And I have to wonder if all of this maybe-lore is directly a result of them using that GH illustration in the GHotR on pg.64, which just happens to be discussing the Dawn Cataclysm. In other words, they are now fudging things so they can play it off as an "I meant to do that" moment.

EDIT:
Almost forgot - Pelor's original name was Sol, just like the roman god of the sun! Could Aumanator also be Sol/Helios, and Lathander is his 'Apollo' (because the Greeks and Romans had two sun gods as well). Maybe he first came into the Realms with those 'warlike citystates' folk the Imaskari brought over (my theoretical 'Dathites'). That would have been early enough for him to have become a god of the Netherese, perhaps even absorbing two smaller gods that were native - A'tar and Aumon(sp?).

He was also called Al'Asran by the Baklunish, which is also somewhat similar to Aumanator (and in that guise he is said to have granted the legendary Cup and Talisman to Al'Akbar.)

He has a deep loathing of Tharizdun, and one of his paladins (Saint Pentival) was a foe of Acererak (both beings who have also migrated into Realmslore of late).

And there is a legend about some 'unamed kingdom' (why would they not remember the name? Was it not on Oerth?) where the forces of light battled evil humans, demons, and undead. Sounds like several wars in the unapproachable east, including the Great Conflagration. "An interesting detail is that this myth claims the sun's rays are the spirits of the righteous, a claim that no other Pelorian texts makes."

On the other hand, all of this stuff about him and 'Saints' seems to point even more to the fact that Lathander was probaly just one of his MANY disciples who 'made good' (took over after he left/was banished?) So connecting Latahnder to the Sundering or Godswar is looking worse now. I have to admit it was never a great fit, other than the stuff we had abut 'a second sun'(Lathander is a 'young god', comparatively - he just doesn't cut it as an 'Ancient, primordial power' like Aumanator does).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2017 02:25:42
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  22:51:57  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

My only real problem with it all is the fall of Jhaamdath - weren't the elves responsible for that? I don't recall any canon connection between it and the Dawn Cataclysm.

The elves were responsible for it, but it's connected to the Dawn Cataclysm in that sermon in the GHotR. It's not a concrete connection, but with the faith of Lathander rising in that region (before -137) being so close to the tidal wave (-255), it's tempting to connect them.

I think it's very possible Lathander inspired Dharien, the fellow mentioned in a separate Jhaamdath cutaway in the GHotR that cut down the elves' forests, so in a way he is responsible for what followed. The elves did it, but he set in motion the events that would push them to it. After all, Dharien took over about -270, and Lathanderian priests ride out of the same region in -137 - so it's more than possible Lathander was active at that time.

Edit: The GHotR sermon also links Murdane's death to the Jhaamdath tidal wave. Again, it's not a concrete connection, but Helm does blame Lathander for Murdane's death, and so perhaps he blames Lathander for the wave - implying Lathander may have pushed the elves into doing it, which means that Lathander may have been behind Dharien's actions.
quote:
So perhaps they were connected, but it would be more along the lines of 'the timing was right', rather than a direct correlation as you put forward (The DC having caused the Tidal Wave... if that were the case, I'd want Umberlee involved somehow...).

I wouldn't rule out the Talfir being connected to the rise of Lathander instead of the Jhaamdathi, or even both, but I think the Jhaamdathi+Netherese explanation I posted is simpler. We could add in a thick layer of Shar, but it seems like an unnecessary complication to me.

As for Umberlee, I suspect she WAS involved - check out the GHotR sermon. The Dawn Cataclysm is supposed to involve a lot of things, a lot we don't know about. Perhaps Lathander planned on wiping the world clean with Umberlee's water, and then rebuilding it using the Jhaamdathi boat-builder, Noah-style? Or perhaps Umberlee offered up a great deal of aid to the elves of Nikerymath (maybe even by pretending to be Deep Sashelas)... anyway, the point is I think Umberlee was involved somehow.
quote:
As for Moander planning ANYTHING, I'm just not seeing it. He is like Ghaunadaur's 'special' little brother. every time he reawakens, he does the same dumb crap that gets him immediately 'killed' again. I think the very first thing that rotted was his brain.

Then like in my edit notes on the DC post, perhaps he didn't plan anything but just took advantage of the situation, faking to be a flower so he can have a shot at rotting away Tyche's insides. Slowly, over a millennia.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 23 Apr 2017 01:00:37
Go to Top of Page

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
427 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  00:11:51  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me Lathander, Amaunator and Jergal are three separate gods that share control over a sun portfolio. It has three phases that changes in cycle of few thousand years and the power of the sun flows between them. This cycle is just another manifestation of ancient fight between Shar and Selune (creation and entropy). It is written that this fight created many gods. Amaunator's time was during height of Netheril Empire and it's doom came when Jergal came to reign (we know that Jergal was very strong god by the end of Netheril and Amaunator was slowly fading). He give most of his power to Dead Three at that time and this sealed doom of Jhaamdath when Bane influenced their general to take power into his hand and started conquest of Inner Sea (he needed a lot of wood for that forcing elves to act). We can than see a rocket rise of Lathander as his time came with Procession of Justice which started event known as Dawn Cataclysm - turmoil around retaking of power by Lathander. It has started changes in the Realms so vast (like supporting colonisation of Northern coast of Inner Sea) that it spelled doom for elven reign (Myth Drannor). Few gods even died during this turmoil which is commonly blamed on Lathander as he started it all.

I like the idea of Beshaba and Tymora being already lesser gods under Tyche and that they took her power before Moander could. It doesn't change much but makes more sense than popping up from her.

I have also Amaunator known as Ra in Mulhorandi population and that he started to distance himself little earlier from them (starting diefic supremancy battle of Osiris and Set).

Edited by - Wrigley on 23 Apr 2017 00:14:33
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  01:27:04  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

He give most of his power to Dead Three at that time and this sealed doom of Jhaamdath when Bane influenced their general to take power into his hand and started conquest of Inner Sea (he needed a lot of wood for that forcing elves to act).

I wouldn't be surprised if Bane had some involvement with Dharien - he's a tyrant etc - but is this derived from any specific sources? Interested if there's a tie-in, if there is it would be one of the earliest FR Bane's actions as a god.
quote:
We can than see a rocket rise of Lathander as his time came with Procession of Justice which started event known as Dawn Cataclysm - turmoil around retaking of power by Lathander.

This thread is talking about the Three-Faced Sun heresy, the Dawn Cataclysm, AND the Procession of Justice? Damn, this is some good conversation!

Tyr and the Procession of Justice is complicated. Faiths and Pantheons has Tyr coming to Toril in -247 DR (8 years after the tidal wave), leading a force of archons to pacify what was the lawless ruins of Jhaamdath. I don't think this started the Dawn Cataclysm, but I do think it was a part of it.

However, Prayers of the Faithful has Tyr's worship occuring in Toril at around -2,700 DR, with his mightiest priests residing in modern Turmish - then likely part of Jhaamdath.Ed has expanded on this, saying that Tyr was a part of the Jhaamdathi pantheon, and he's been around since at least around -3,700 DR.

I take this as that Tyr was always a part of the Jhaamdathi pantheon, but he only physically came to Toril in -247 DR in the Procession of Justice, which was a response to the destruction of Jhaamdath. I believe that both the tidal wave and the Procession may be part of the long divine conflict later known as the Dawn Cataclysm.
quote:
It has started changes in the Realms so vast (like supporting colonisation of Northern coast of Inner Sea) that it spelled doom for elven reign (Myth Drannor). Few gods even died during this turmoil which is commonly blamed on Lathander as he started it all.

This is actually an interesting expansion on the idea of the Dawn Cataclysm being partly Lathander expanding his worship throughout the world. The founding of Chondathan (later Saerloon) and other cities during the years of the Dawn Cataclysm (my theory -300 to 700 DR) could be linked to the forceful exuberance of Lathander. I think it's too much to say that Lathander was solely responsible for the founding of these cities, but I think his Church may have been an important part of these societies, pushing for expansion.

Edit: In fact, the clashing of many cultures during this period as Netherese and Jhaamdathi expatriates expanded into other regions, joining and clashing with existing societies and forming new ones, may have even been a major part of the Dawn Cataclysm. Different pantheons would have been clashing against each other, likely resulting in the "Faerunian" pantheon coming into existence by the end of the Dawn Cataclysm!
(Much as I would love to claim this concept, I'm pretty sure others have suggested it before)

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 23 Apr 2017 01:52:08
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  03:25:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was postulating something similar in another thread, about the Norse. That Tyr may have had followers before he even arrived on Toril (if FR's Northmen are the same group as RW Northmen). It does make sense. given the mulitspheric nature of The Realms (Gates/portals), its quite possible a LOT of gods wind up in Realmspace at some point, because large numbers of their faithful find themselves there (like the Mulan - they drew from three pantheons). At a certain point, all that 'worship juice' (Elan) reaches critical mass, and Ao lets them interlope.

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I like the idea of Beshaba and Tymora being already lesser gods under Tyche and that they took her power before Moander could. It doesn't change much but makes more sense than popping up from her.

I have also Amaunator known as Ra in Mulhorandi population and that he started to distance himself little earlier from them (starting diefic supremancy battle of Osiris and Set).

In his entry in F&P it says that some sages believe "he went into the east". I take that as Kara-Tur, but it could be relative; if Aumanator was only know in the Western Heartlands, than anything east (and south) of that could be construed as 'into the east' (so even if the entry says 'the eastern realms/Kara-Tur', they could have just been mistaken about how far he went). I like him as Ra, and its funny, because I was thinking about that as well, earlier today. If he is indeed Pelor, Pelor is closely associated with Rao, another GH god (although Rao isn't Ra/Re... as far as we know. It could just be another Alias Pelor operates under (with different portfolios, although they do compliment Ra's), or it could just be another one of his many 'ascended' followers (another deity - Mayaheine - is considered the other god he's closest too, and that one definitely was one of his 'saints' before gaining more power/worship).

I really love the Tymora/Beshaba being elevated followers of Tyche - thats got a LOT of traction. I'm actually jealous I had never thought of that. Much better than 'goddess gets torn in half'. Make them twin sisters (with very different personalities) and its pure gold. Tyche may even be their mother (by a mortal... a not-yet-risen Lathander?)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2017 03:26:02
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  03:32:19  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I really love the Tymora/Beshaba being elevated followers of Tyche - thats got a LOT of traction. I'm actually jealous I had never thought of that. Much better than 'goddess gets torn in half'. Make them twin sisters (with very different personalities) and its pure gold. Tyche may even be their mother (by a mortal... a not-yet-risen Lathander?)

Consider that Selune and Lathander themselves tell the story of Tymora rising from the split Tyche in Tymora's Luck.
quote:
“When Tyche returned to her home in the outer planes, Selune, goddess of the moon, was there waiting to speak with her. Selune was instantly aware of the corruption eating away at her friend. Without a moment’s hesitation—” “—she lashed out,” said another voice (Selune), “with a bolt of purifying light that split Tyche down the center of her rotting core. All that was good and kind in Tyche coalesced into a single form and stepped out from Tyche’s rotting corpse. That was Tymora. I brought her forth from the tragedy of Tyche’s corruption, and she possessed power over good fortune.”

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 23 Apr 2017 03:32:50
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  05:36:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've never read that novel, and I'm not sure why. I found a copy on my HD and its seems pretty good. I'll have to check it out when I have more time (I don't like reading on my comp - Ill have to buy a physical copy from somewhere). But there was this, right near the very beginning -
quote:
"The last time I saw a new universe blossom," Lath­ander said sadly, "Tyche was my companion. We lay on the back of a space whale and watched for a full year as the crystal spheres grew larger and spread apart and the stars inside them flickered to life and brightened."
"Tyche always did have too much time to fritter away," Chauntea muttered, scattering a handful of seed in the furrow before her. "I'm sorry, Lathander, but my work is more important."
"I want to share this with someone," Lathander in­sisted stubbornly.
"Well, Tyche is gone, and I am busy. You'll have to find someone else. Why don't you seek out Tyche's daughters, Beshaba or Tymora? Perhaps one of them has time to lie on the back of a space whale."
"Neither child is the same as her dam," Lathander com­plained. There was the faintest hint of a whine in his voice.

Interesting - they actually SAY that the two are Tyche's daughters. If anything, that supports the case they aren't from a split Tyche.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2017 05:38:30
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  05:44:42  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That quote comes after the physical split, that Selune says happens. The fact that the two are birthed from the split leads to them being referred to as her daughters.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30340 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  05:51:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I really love the Tymora/Beshaba being elevated followers of Tyche - thats got a LOT of traction. I'm actually jealous I had never thought of that. Much better than 'goddess gets torn in half'. Make them twin sisters (with very different personalities) and its pure gold. Tyche may even be their mother (by a mortal... a not-yet-risen Lathander?)

Consider that Selune and Lathander themselves tell the story of Tymora rising from the split Tyche in Tymora's Luck.
quote:
“When Tyche returned to her home in the outer planes, Selune, goddess of the moon, was there waiting to speak with her. Selune was instantly aware of the corruption eating away at her friend. Without a moment’s hesitation—” “—she lashed out,” said another voice (Selune), “with a bolt of purifying light that split Tyche down the center of her rotting core. All that was good and kind in Tyche coalesced into a single form and stepped out from Tyche’s rotting corpse. That was Tymora. I brought her forth from the tragedy of Tyche’s corruption, and she possessed power over good fortune.”




It could be metaphorical... Tymora already covered good luck, so all of Tyche's positive aspects went to her. She went from a saint or demipower to a full-on deity, in effect stepping forth from that which was once Tyche.

I'll agree that the stricter interpretation of canon that I generally stick with does make the split into two different entities a literal one. But we've also always had some built-in fuzziness with what is and isn't true -- Ed once said "The problem with concentrating on the latter is that mortals (PCs) just can never know the truth about divine matters; even the gods lie and distort, and their priesthoods certainly do."

If we run with that, we get more possibilities -- including both of the things I've proposed in this thread: that Lathander was once a servant of Amaunator and got promoted, and that Tyche's demise promoted her ranking servants Tymora and Beshaba. It's not unprecedented in Realmslore; Gwaeron Windstrom was once a mortal and got promoted by Mielikki.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  06:12:52  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree that it's possible, I just don't particularly see the use in inventing a non-canon explanation for something that already has a canon explanation. The canon explanation could be a lie or a half-truth, absolutely, but I personally prefer to not go against established canon except when there are contradictions in the lore, which there aren't in the case of Tyche being split into Tymora and Beshaba.

It's still an interesting theory, and I've said my piece on it, so please continue!

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
744 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  11:31:05  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've made a ten page document after collecting every source on Amaunator I could find. I've filled some gaps with my own stuff, but most of it is canon (some reworded, some not so much). I learned a lot making this, hope it's of use to people! Credit for most of the writing obviously goes to the original authors.

The Faith of Amaunator

Next step will be adding in all the references, fun...but necessary.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 23 Apr 2017 11:53:17
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Senior Scribe

441 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  13:35:22  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bane being a half-orc is an incredibly tenuous connection to anything. His appearance in F&P is nothing like how we've seen him in any appearance; his avatar in 1e looked more like a militant Aku, in 2e he preferred possession, in his last novel appearance he looked like Morgoth. Even in religious art, he appears as a robed figure wearing a gauntlet.

I mean, not all deities actually looked like how they were supposed to in F&P. Bane looking a lot like Xvim (because that's actually closer to how Xvim looks like) makes sense because he was using Xvim as his puppet, and only returned to his true form when he was fully free from Xvim.

You're also going to have to retcon the fact that Amaunator's corpse was in the Astral Plane and his realm was in Mechanus. Pelor's realm is in Elysium.

Yet again, why is everyone ignoring the fact that Amaunator is closest in description to Pholtus, not Pelor? Big P is closer to Lathander, while Pholtus essentially IS Amaunator. About the only reason everyone seems fixated on Pelor is because Pelor's the more famous of the two. Next we'll have people saying that Mystra is Boccob, because they're both greater gods of magic.

Because that's the literal only connection between Pelor and Amaunator. They're both greater powers of the sun.

Ammy: LN, Bureaucracy, contracts, law, order, the sun, rulership
Pelor: NG, Sun, Light, Strength, Healing
Pholtus: LN, Light, Resolve, Law, Order, Inflexibility, the Sun, the Moons
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  14:50:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He has a summer home?

And Mystra is Wee Jas.

Just did a quick search of Pholtus. Not a lot there, but he does have 'light' in his portfolio, which I was unaware of. Still not a 'sun god' though, and THAT is the main reason for connecting Pelor and Aumanator. The Planescape Wiki does list at least one other planet he is worshiped on (Ortho), making him multispheric. Strangely, the PS Wiki doesn't really have an entry for Pelor (some rudimentary stat stuff, but no descriptive text/info), so we don't know if he is multispheric or not.

It really comes down to that stupid pic in the GHotR that shows a Priest of Pelor talking about the Dawn Cataclysm, and the only reason why that exists is because they recycled some GH art.

Bane as a half-orc just makes him more interesting, IMO, but I can see what you're saying about Xvim (was Xvim's mother an orc?) We still have the oddness of 'Core' ane and FR Bane from 4e, so a lot of conjecture is now being focused on reconciling that (be he Half-Orc or not). By creating stuff around Nerull (and thus around Pelor) about 'The Banes', it makes more sense, especially given what we have about Mellifleur in MM (because we get to fix the conundrum with 'undead gods' as well).

It doesn't really matter - 'canon' isn't what it used to be, and the blame for that falls squarely on 4e. It doesn't matter what we say, or even what WotC says anymore - everyone's going to have their Realms their way. It actually should have been that way all along - maybe 4e was 'tough love'? Weird, me thinking that now.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2017 14:52:09
Go to Top of Page

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
427 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  15:50:04  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

He give most of his power to Dead Three at that time and this sealed doom of Jhaamdath when Bane influenced their general to take power into his hand and started conquest of Inner Sea (he needed a lot of wood for that forcing elves to act).

I wouldn't be surprised if Bane had some involvement with Dharien - he's a tyrant etc - but is this derived from any specific sources? Interested if there's a tie-in, if there is it would be one of the earliest FR Bane's actions as a god.
quote:
We can than see a rocket rise of Lathander as his time came with Procession of Justice which started event known as Dawn Cataclysm - turmoil around retaking of power by Lathander.

This thread is talking about the Three-Faced Sun heresy, the Dawn Cataclysm, AND the Procession of Justice? Damn, this is some good conversation!


It is only a conjecture. There was a military coup in region we know Bane started with right after he became god.

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Tyr and the Procession of Justice is complicated. Faiths and Pantheons has Tyr coming to Toril in -247 DR (8 years after the tidal wave), leading a force of archons to pacify what was the lawless ruins of Jhaamdath. I don't think this started the Dawn Cataclysm, but I do think it was a part of it.

However, Prayers of the Faithful has Tyr's worship occuring in Toril at around -2,700 DR, with his mightiest priests residing in modern Turmish - then likely part of Jhaamdath.Ed has expanded on this, saying that Tyr was a part of the Jhaamdathi pantheon, and he's been around since at least around -3,700 DR.


I personaly do not like Tyr for he seems to me redundant and too much into the face copy of RW (I know there are other RW gods but Tyr hits me the most) and I have basicaly used Torm instead. I see Procession of Justice as a birth of Triad and I am including Lathander for he was strangely overlooked by Triad anyway.

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I take this as that Tyr was always a part of the Jhaamdathi pantheon, but he only physically came to Toril in -247 DR in the Procession of Justice, which was a response to the destruction of Jhaamdath. I believe that both the tidal wave and the Procession may be part of the long divine conflict later known as the Dawn Cataclysm.
quote:
It has started changes in the Realms so vast (like supporting colonisation of Northern coast of Inner Sea) that it spelled doom for elven reign (Myth Drannor). Few gods even died during this turmoil which is commonly blamed on Lathander as he started it all.

This is actually an interesting expansion on the idea of the Dawn Cataclysm being partly Lathander expanding his worship throughout the world. The founding of Chondathan (later Saerloon) and other cities during the years of the Dawn Cataclysm (my theory -300 to 700 DR) could be linked to the forceful exuberance of Lathander. I think it's too much to say that Lathander was solely responsible for the founding of these cities, but I think his Church may have been an important part of these societies, pushing for expansion.



He did not directly found the cities but his domain are new beginings so he supported that as much as he could for he needed to be advertised.
For the dating of DC I still believe we could agree about aproximate start and we have only mention about Myth Drannor as consequence of it. Such a large undertaking as DC have usualy very long period when actions taken echoes and are felt directly or indirectly over many years and it is hard to say when it ended.
Go to Top of Page

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
427 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  16:09:38  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley

I like the idea of Beshaba and Tymora being already lesser gods under Tyche and that they took her power before Moander could. It doesn't change much but makes more sense than popping up from her.

I have also Amaunator known as Ra in Mulhorandi population and that he started to distance himself little earlier from them (starting diefic supremancy battle of Osiris and Set).

In his entry in F&P it says that some sages believe "he went into the east". I take that as Kara-Tur, but it could be relative; if Aumanator was only know in the Western Heartlands, than anything east (and south) of that could be construed as 'into the east' (so even if the entry says 'the eastern realms/Kara-Tur', they could have just been mistaken about how far he went). I like him as Ra, and its funny, because I was thinking about that as well, earlier today. If he is indeed Pelor, Pelor is closely associated with Rao, another GH god (although Rao isn't Ra/Re... as far as we know. It could just be another Alias Pelor operates under (with different portfolios, although they do compliment Ra's), or it could just be another one of his many 'ascended' followers (another deity - Mayaheine - is considered the other god he's closest too, and that one definitely was one of his 'saints' before gaining more power/worship).


Amaunator being Ra means he had to be there much sooner to be the main god of Mulhorandi people even before their abduction. I have them as original population of Zakhara so I do not deal with multispheric Pelor/stuff. Other mulhorandi gods are originaly beast lords he possibly elevated?

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I really love the Tymora/Beshaba being elevated followers of Tyche - thats got a LOT of traction. I'm actually jealous I had never thought of that. Much better than 'goddess gets torn in half'. Make them twin sisters (with very different personalities) and its pure gold. Tyche may even be their mother (by a mortal... a not-yet-risen Lathander?)


As Tyche was a goddess of Fate I can easily imagine that some people needed more specific gods to relate to and thus Tymora and Beshaba were born. It was surely a work of Tyche and we can say what way they came to be goddesses. From what was written in novels I do not see a problem contradicting this version as Wooly already explained.

For Bane I have him originaly as pure orc (Vorbyx?) from Moonsea who deliberately hide this to relate to more followers. He got together with Netheries necromancer and calimshan tiefling around Westgate and started a legendary trip to the stars :-)
(I have used Murghom necromancer origin for Velsharoon)
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30340 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  16:19:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
About the Pelor/Amaunator thing... I've been avoiding that one because I'm weak on Greyhawk stuff. I would question, though, why the different names if they're the same entity -- other multispheric deities use the same name all over the place.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30340 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  16:39:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

I agree that it's possible, I just don't particularly see the use in inventing a non-canon explanation for something that already has a canon explanation. The canon explanation could be a lie or a half-truth, absolutely, but I personally prefer to not go against established canon except when there are contradictions in the lore, which there aren't in the case of Tyche being split into Tymora and Beshaba.

It's still an interesting theory, and I've said my piece on it, so please continue!



I can did that. I'd say, though, that it's not as much a non-canon explanation as it is an expansion on a canon one.

As I've commented before, if there's nothing in canon that definitively addresses something, then you have a gray area there to play in. Nothing in canon says there isn't a werecat priestess of Selûne named Terielle Nashirn among the Lords of Waterdeep -- so canon is not violated by putting that character in that position.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  18:18:36  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tymora's Luck is a good read, but I enjoyed the Finder books as a whole.

F&P stated that Lathander was in the process of taking the same steps again that brought about the Dawn Cataclysm. Of course this hasn't been touched on since, but with the Deliverance and Lathander becoming Amaunataur for a time, I have to wonder if his "steps" had anything to do with these events (a long shot those this might be). Lathander and Amaunataur are separate now, and portfolios, as mentioned earlier in this scroll, are more fluid now. Whatever Lathander's "image" of what the pantheon should look like is, we now once again have a full-fledged pantheon (though Murdane, the deity who was killed in the Dawn Cataclysm, seems to have remained dead), and while Lathander/Amaunataur couldn't have been the sole cause, it certainly doesn't hurt to speculate what, if any influence he had on the second Sundering. After all, he is the god of new beginnings, and, after the second Sundering, there was a "new dawn", of sorts.

The Sundering was caused by Ao, too, reworking things yet again, and it left the gods scrambling and trying to figure out what was going on, but the Deliverance, and later the events leading up to and during the Sundering, could have been influenced in part by these "steps" Lathander was taking. The Deliverance divided the church of Lathander, with some believing the whole thing heresy, but then it happened, and for about a century, Lathander was Amaunataur. Then, the Sundering happened, and they became separate entities once more. I can't help but wonder at the connection, however loose of a connection it may be.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30340 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  18:47:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It'd be nice if there was a connection there, but considering how many plotlines and such were simply ignored in the various edition changes, I'm doubting it'll ever be mentioned again.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2052 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  18:51:41  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I know, that's why I was merely speculating ^^;

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14389 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2017 :  19:27:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When I finally do the write-up for the Nentir Vale conversion stuff, I am going to leave it fuzzy whether Pelor is Lathander or Aumanator, or even something new (to FR). I can think whatever I want for my version of The Realms (and I am getting sorely tempted to start running it again, what with all this excellent talk around here lately), but I plan to host the finished conversion map + notes over on the DM's Guild, so 'interpretable lore' probably works best for the largest number of people. Trying to get a WIP of that up on DeviantART today... but I keep adding more stuff (lake names right now, and a few 'encounter locales' from some 5e maps).

About Pelor-as-Ra (or Aumanator, etc.), or multiple 'Banes', or deities using more than one name (not seeing the problem with that one, really - some use multiple aliases on the same world, some go by the same name everywhere {Ptah); every god is different), or any other "this one can't be that one because of the timeline". None of that actually matters - gods take-over the churches, portfolios, and even the NAMES of other gods all the time. FR lore is rife with it, and just about everyone here (myself included) is forgetting about that. I fixed the lore regarding Shevarash (appearing in one story TENS of thousands of years before he should have) by simply saying 'The Hunter' is a title more than one elven deity has worn. It doesn't really matter what happened to the first one - or if there were fifty others in-between - what matters is that there was one, a long time ago, and now there is another. Once again, mortals never know the truth of these things. Heck, other deities rarely know the whole truth regarding these things.

So the 'real' Ra may have interloped over with the rest of the Mulan pantheon(s), but Ra died during the Orcgate wars in -1071 DR. Horus took on the mantle of 'Horus-Re', and was "greatly changed after this". Who's to say Hoar isn't really Horus, and joined the Faerûnian Pantheon, whilst Aumanator went south and grabbed Ra's old portfolio (basically, Aumanator made Horus an 'offer he couldn't refuse'). Thus, it has really been Aumanator as Horus-Re this whole time. Those were the former lands of the Imaskari, where "gods dare not dwell" (or some such) - I'm sure more than just one deity was happy when Imaskar fell and made a play to set themselves up as part of the new pantheons (something the Orcs made much easier, inadvertantly). And maybe, after the fall of Netheril, Aumanator just washed his hands of the Heartlands altogether, and focused on the Old Empires. Then, after their heyday was over and those empires start to wane, he looks north again and decides its time to head home (getting a few priests to start the heresy, and one to create the 'new sun' which caused a spike in belief, and allowed him to come back into the Faerûnian lands he had abandoned).

There is a million and one ways we can re-spin the lore, without actually ignoring it. Thats why canon isn't really as 'set in stone' as we once thought it was; with gods and magic (and elves and Ao mucking-about with the timestream), 'reality' is highly subjective to the era you're living (playing) in. Even in the RW, history isn't 'the truth' - 99% of it is "someone's best guess". I think Napoleon said it best: "History is a set of lies agreed upon". So, just by fudging some 'hitherto unrevealed' details, we can take canon and mangle it any which way we want, without actually changing 'the facts' (politicians - and media - do it all the time; you just re-flavor an event and it looks completely different to people).

EDIT:
About Murdane, and any other 'dead gods' - just because we have no lore saying they've come back, doesn't actually mean they can't. An "absence of facts" doesn't really prove anything at all.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2017 20:02:12
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Senior Scribe

441 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2017 :  03:58:51  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

He has a summer home?

And Mystra is Wee Jas.

Just did a quick search of Pholtus. Not a lot there, but he does have 'light' in his portfolio, which I was unaware of. Still not a 'sun god' though, and THAT is the main reason for connecting Pelor and Aumanator.



Pholtus has the sun as part of his portfolio.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 6 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000