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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Apr 2017 : 13:10:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Eh. Tis what it is! I'm still enjoying myself, sorry to hear others aren't.
I did a word-search in the Reaver for anywhere Lathander claims to be the same as Amaunator and couldn't find anything. Stedd seems to believe it, but my guess is that's being filtered through a century of the teachings of Amaunator's priests. He's just interpreting the signs/visions/feelings given to him by Lathander through the sieve of his own experience (he says at one point Lathander doesn't tell him things directly) - though I haven't read it yet and would love to see quotes that put forth a different view. I'll get there in a couple of months.
One of the points of emphasis in the podcast was that individuals in the world have to interpret the signs of the gods themselves now - the gods don't explain things in words (at least not as often or as widely), it's part of the "more distant" thing post-Sundering. Mortals have to figure things out for themselves, giving more power to individual prophets that claim to be able to interpret the will of the gods. Sometimes those prophets may be misguided.
I'm just interpreting all this through my own sieve though, so YMMV. I'm not a fan of how 4e merged gods, and this kind of explanation works better for me. I kind of like the idea that the Amaunator-Lathander rebirth thing was some bull sold to mortals by Amaunator's priests to buy up the disappeared Lathander's worshippers. After all, everyone thought it was a heresy back in 1374 - the trouble was that Lathander stopped answering prayers, so people started buying into it.
There were suggestions about that one before 4E; I think it was originally suggested on the REALMS-L list.
It just occurred to me that maybe Lathander's silence was an involuntary thing -- perhaps, during the chaos of the Spellplague, he was wounded or captured. Even though I hate using Shar, since she's so overplayed, it seems like a fun idea that she was involved in sidelining Lathander and bringing back Amaunator. Sure, Amaunator would be an enemy of hers, as well, but he's older, thus more predictable, and his harsh nature could actually drive people away from law and light. Plus, Lathander was all about hope and new beginnings, and that's far more antithetical to Shar's portfolios than sunlight and law.
Or was sent to Abeir and some other entity calling itself Amaunator took up his place in his absence (which could be a LOT of beings when one considers just how many sun gods there have been in the realms).
SIDE NOTE: If we were to accept some of the DM's Guild products as decent enough for undeveloped areas, the Lopango, Land of the Sacred Sun supplement has a "manifestation"/"avatar"/"Titan"/"Primordial" named Intiri that lives on a mountaintop and is served by his sun priests. He's crowned in feathers and he's surrounded by flames. While he will protect his people, he expects them to be self-sufficient and tries not to get involved in their day to day problems. His mother is Mama Carocha (who disappeared when Maztica died, and whom they state IS Maztica) and his father is Virachoa (whom they state IS Kukul).
I personally don't know why, but I like this deity. Also, much like Qotal aka Ubtao left Maztica because of Zaltec... and that Ubtao is a feathered serpent... I suspect that Intiri is Lathander and he was forced to go into the Lopango and eventually on to Faerun due to Tezca.... IF we accept this idea, and we accept that Kukul/Virachoa is Kukulkan (who was another feathered serpent deity)... then Kukul/Qotal/Intiri would all be "feathered deities" which may mean they were originally from the Aeaeree (sp?). In this scenario, I'd place Intiri / Lathander as a Phoenix like being, which fits his portfolio of rebirth, fire like the sun, etc... It could also explain why Lathander would get pulled to Abeir (i.e. his "other self" over in the Lopango got shifted over and he was dragged with it).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 18 Apr 2017 13:58:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2017 : 13:43:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Eh. Tis what it is! I'm still enjoying myself, sorry to hear others aren't.
I did a word-search in the Reaver for anywhere Lathander claims to be the same as Amaunator and couldn't find anything. Stedd seems to believe it, but my guess is that's being filtered through a century of the teachings of Amaunator's priests. He's just interpreting the signs/visions/feelings given to him by Lathander through the sieve of his own experience (he says at one point Lathander doesn't tell him things directly) - though I haven't read it yet and would love to see quotes that put forth a different view. I'll get there in a couple of months.
One of the points of emphasis in the podcast was that individuals in the world have to interpret the signs of the gods themselves now - the gods don't explain things in words (at least not as often or as widely), it's part of the "more distant" thing post-Sundering. Mortals have to figure things out for themselves, giving more power to individual prophets that claim to be able to interpret the will of the gods. Sometimes those prophets may be misguided.
I'm just interpreting all this through my own sieve though, so YMMV. I'm not a fan of how 4e merged gods, and this kind of explanation works better for me. I kind of like the idea that the Amaunator-Lathander rebirth thing was some bull sold to mortals by Amaunator's priests to buy up the disappeared Lathander's worshippers. After all, everyone thought it was a heresy back in 1374 - the trouble was that Lathander stopped answering prayers, so people started buying into it.
There were suggestions about that one before 4E; I think it was originally suggested on the REALMS-L list.
It just occurred to me that maybe Lathander's silence was an involuntary thing -- perhaps, during the chaos of the Spellplague, he was wounded or captured. Even though I hate using Shar, since she's so overplayed, it seems like a fun idea that she was involved in sidelining Lathander and bringing back Amaunator. Sure, Amaunator would be an enemy of hers, as well, but he's older, thus more predictable, and his harsh nature could actually drive people away from law and light. Plus, Lathander was all about hope and new beginnings, and that's far more antithetical to Shar's portfolios than sunlight and law.
Or was sent to Abeir and some other entity calling itself Amaunator took up his place in his absence (which could be a LOT of beings when one considers just how many sun gods there have been in the realms).
Ohhh... I like that. Maybe Pelor wasn't Aumanator, but because of the Spellplague weirdness he got his foot in the door (of Realmspace), and latched onto an already known name and heresy to establish himself? On the other hand, it could just have been a previous alias of his that he abandoned (when his 'flock' - the Netherese - decided to cause magic to fail), and is now taking back up again... so many possibilities.
About why Shar may have sponsored a return of Aumanator - the casual answer might be that she was hoping to control him. With the return of Nethreril, she may have obscure reasons for wanting to prop-up the old Netherese pantheon again (since the Shades would put her at the top of the food-chain in that). An even easier, more straight-forward reason would be 'divide & conquer'. Defeating 15 smaller 'sun gods' is probably a LOT easier than defeating one monolithic (Faerūn-spanning) sun god. With Ra gone, Lathander was probably becoming too big a threat. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2017 : 14:09:42
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| Oh, and on the aforementioned concept of Kukul / Intiri / Qotal being related to "undefined" / Lathander / Ubtao ... its an unspoken thing that I believe that some of the other deities that came into the Maztican pantheon (specifically the elemental ones, Plutoq, Tezca, Eha, and Azul, and also Zaltec) are interlopers and not directly related to Maztica & Kukul despite how the legends may have twisted (I still like Kiltzi, Nula, and Watil as sisters of Qotal & Intiri). Also, some of those elemental deities MAY correspond to the lords of elemental evil (or they may not) or the neutral lords of the elements (i.e. Plutoq may be Grumbar, etc...). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2017 : 15:43:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ohhh... I like that. Maybe Pelor wasn't Aumanator, but because of the Spellplague weirdness he got his foot in the door (of Realmspace), and latched onto an already known name and heresy to establish himself? On the other hand, it could just have been a previous alias of his that he abandoned (when his 'flock' - the Netherese - decided to cause magic to fail), and is now taking back up again... so many possibilities.
Pelor assuming the title of "Amaunator" has potential as well, and of course begs the question which of the other "returned" deities are in this boat as well? Since I am theorizing that many, many deities are now taking refuge in the Realms in the wake of the Spellplague. (Don't be too upset with Cyric when he spends the next 1000 years destroying other worlds to save mortals from the evils of divinity, and causing deities to go to the only place Cyric can't follow... Toril.)
Something I have found helpful with conceptualizing the deities in the Realms is thinking along the lines of Earth's historical nobility. For example, in the WW2 era, when King George V died and King Edward VIII abdicated the throne, Edward's younger brother assumed the name/title of King George VI (his name was really Albert, but King Albert would have sounded a little too... German).
So, I am thinking that perhaps "Amaunator I" was the only real Amaunator... Lathander may have assumed the name/title of "Amaunator II" during the Spellplague, and subsequently abdicated that responsibility to Pelor once the Sundering rolls around, and Pelor assumes the name/title of "Amaunator III"... If Lathander really wanted to keep the name/title of "Amaunator II", the "neutral good sun god" similarities between Pelor & Lathander probably would have necessitated Pelor assuming the name/title of "Lathander II"... But, I suspect Lathander wasn't comfortable in the "Lawful" role he assumed temporarily, nor would he be comfortable with what Pelor might do to the name/title of "Lathander".
This stuff also ties in really well with a lot of theorizing people have done to reconcile Bane's multiversal continuity issues... because I noticed that Bane's symbol changed from a Hand grasping Green Light (Xvim as Bane) to a Claw with Three Fingers (multiversal Bane), suggesting that the current Bane is "Bane III"... This also helps to validate both Markustay's and Wooly's theories about Bane: Asmodeus assumed the name/title of "Bane I", Iyachtu Xvim assumed the name/title of "Bane II", and the Original/Multiversal Bane reclaimed his name/title as "Bane III".
(I know there have been suggestions that the Multiversal Bane is actually Ares, and not related to the Original Bane... However, I prefer to think that when the Original Bane gave his Torilian Divinity to Asmodeus in exchange for a Multiversal Divinity... Asmodeus enabled the Original Bane to usurp the Multiversal Divinity of Ares).
...A lot of possibilities here... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 18 Apr 2017 15:53:35 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2017 : 08:59:37
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Been reading a bit more about Amaunator and Lathander, some more thoughts.
2nd Edition
Amaunator is worshipped during the time of Netheril. His worship sharply drops off after Netheril's fall (-339 DR), and he becomes a corpse on the Astral Plane about a millenium after Netheril's fall (very approximately 661 DR). Meanwhile, it's been said here on Candlekeep that Lathander was worshipped during the time of Athalantar (183-342 DR). Perhaps more solidly, the GHotR has a Paladin of Lathander slay Orlak the Night King of Westgate in -137 DR. So, it appears they have both been around at the same time.
I've also found people saying that both Amaunator and Lathander were present during the events of the Dawn Cataclysm, although I can't find a source for that either. That we don't have a date for, and it may have been occuring for centuries, though it had to occur sometime before the fall of Myth Drannor in 714 DR, which it presaged.
It seems to me from the above that they are separate deities. However, here's some more of interest:
quote:
Faiths and Avatars
Over the centuries, many theories have been put forward by later scholars as to what ultimate fate Amaunator met. Some believe he was either absorbed into or became Lathander, others that he turned bitter and became At'ar, and yet others assert that he turned his back on Faerun and entered the pantheon of the lands of Kara-Tur or simply moved on to other crystal spheres. The truth is that with the loss of nearly all his followers in Netheril after its fall, Amaunator began the long, arduous, and painful process of dying of neglect. After about a millennium, he did not have enough power left to maintain the Keep of the Eternal Sun on Mechanus and was ruthlessly exiled to the Astral Plane.
Bottom line: in 2e, Lathander and Amaunator are presented as different deities.
3rd Edition
Then, the links to Amaunator start appearing in the 3e era, with the Landerite sect known as the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun saying that Lathander is the living reincarnation of Amaunator - though it is noted that there is no proof except for the word of their priests. Lathander does not rebuke or confirm the beliefs of this sect, and makes it clear to his morninglords and sunmasters that he considers all that follow him to be his true believers (Lost Empires of Faerun).
Power of Faerun takes this further, saying that Lathander has three options to deal with the rise of this belief:
quote:
Power of Faerun
For example, if a sect emerges within the church of Lathander preaching that the Morninglord is Amaunator reborn, then Lathander has one of three options: He can embrace the new belief, thus making it true; he can effectively ignore the new belief, thus allowing diversity to persist within the faith and weaken the absoluteness of his authority; or he can reject the new belief as heresy, thus splitting the ranks of his followers and reducing his divine strength.
Thus, combining this information with that in Lost Empires, we can see that Lathander chose to ignore the new belief - weakening the absoluteness of his authority, and setting the stage for Amaunator to return.
Then, around 1373 DR, the Risen Sun Heresy comes out of the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun, led by Sunlord Daelegoth Orndeir. Other leaders of Lathander's faith consider excommunicating him, but they act too slowly. He gains more and more popularity throughout 1374, with a victory against Brennus Tanthul, the reclamation of the Shard of the Sun (a holy relic of Amaunator), and requests Amaunator protect the city from the effects of the melting High Ice. When perfect weather ensues, he is thought of as a miracle worker. He claims to have seen a vision of an eternal sun rising high above the land, heralding the rebirth of Amaunator. He then finally casts the Epic Spell he created called "Amaunator's Eternal Sun" above Elversult, and word quickly spreads across Faerun, and many seek to convert to the church of Amaunator.
The story then ends in 1374 with the "end" of 3e.
Bottom line: The "not-true" theory established in 2e that Amaunator and Lathander are the same is expanded into a full-on heresy that gains a lot of followers. It is unclear what 3e's perspective on the truth is and what isn't - Lathander is silent on the matter.
4th Edition
The next clues we have are in the 4e FRCG and the 4e Player's Guide, where we are told:
quote:
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide]
Amaunator is the reincarnated deity of the sun, the timekeeper of the gods. Though some say he died, he actually transformed into Lathander, and was worshiped under that name for centuries before finally reclaiming both his name and his mission.
Forgotten Realms Player's Guide
In the years following the Spellplague, Lathander, the eternally young god of new beginnings and hope, transfigured into his ancient incarnation Amaunator. Although Amaunator dropped the youthful mask he had worn for centuries, his experiences as the Dawn Lord shook him from his ancient mindset. Amaunator is still a dignified god of immense age, but he remembers his youth, and he encourages his followers to do the same.
Amaunator is the god of the sun and time. His church teaches that he has died and been reborn time and again, like the turning of a great clock.
Dragon Magazine #378
Some deities take on multiple aspects, which can display conflicting attitudes and enhance the powers of one domain over another.
Amaunator spent long years in the guise of Lathander. People who want to focus on the optimistic concepts of dawn and vitality might consider the sun domain primarily a part of the Lathander aspect.
Bottom line: This edition presents what was a "heresy" before the Spellplague as truth. There is no mention of alternative viewpoints. However, I would argue that this has been done because this is what almost everyone in the game-world believes, rather that it being an objective truth.
D&D Next
The only real tidbit we get here is this, though it is an interesting one:
quote:
Although the prayers in this temple are addressed to the sun god Amaunator, the forms of worship continue longstanding traditions of the worship of Lathander, who is said to have transformed into Amaunator shortly before the Spellplague.
This unfortunately contradicts the GHoTR, which has Lathander active post-Spellplague:
quote:
1385 DR:
Many planes are shifted or destroyed as well. Only greater deities prove strong enough to maintain their realms against the resultant chaos. Tyr, Lathander, and Sune move against Cyric and successfully imprison the Black Sun in his Supreme Throne, under a sentence of house arrest to last one thousand years.
I'm inclined to go with GHoTR on this, especially considering Ghosts was only a playtest product that did not receive a wide release in gamestores for some time.
5th Edition
Lathander starts granting spells again, most notably in the Reaver (which I'm still to get to).
Amaunator and Lathander both exist (SCAG, confirmed in podcast).
Bottom line: if they can both exist at the same time, and both grant spells, surely they're different deities - as they've always been outside of the (successful) Risen Sun heresy.
My revised theory
Amaunator and Lathander are different deities. After Amaunator's fall, Lathander arrives in the Realms (or at the least becomes more active) and spreads his own faith, as Amaunator's faith slowly dies away. By the time of the fall of Myth Drannor, the Dawn Cataclysm has happened and Amaunator is merely a corpse on the Astral Plane. For a long time, perhaps since the very beginning of Lathander's faith, people have connected the two deities, and the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun is the primary of these, saying that they are one and the same. In the 1370s, Daelegoth Orndeir takes this a step further and actively tries to return Amaunator to prominence over Lathander. Lathander does not act against his efforts, and faith in him wanes while faith in Amaunator rises - but, Lathander is confident (over-optimistic as always) that his faithful will win everything back.
Then the Spellplague happens. As in my earlier theory, the House of Nature is destroyed and Lathander is left without a domain. However, I'd add to my intial theory that Lathander's power had already been significantly drained by the Risen Sun Heresy over the past 11 years - and perhaps even further draining occured due to his involvement in the binding of Cyric. It is these events, along with his need to create a new planar home, that allows Amaunator to supercede him and usurp his role. As an alternative, perhaps Lathander draws on his faithful to create the new plane, including the Risen Sun followers, and finds that he needs to work with Amaunator to create the new plane - however, Amaunator takes advantage of the weakened, naive Lathander and usurps him.
This gets us to the 4e situation, where the Risen Sun "heresy" is the new truth - because their priests won. When Lathander disappeared and Amaunator reappeared only 11 years after Daelegoth's pronouncements, they had won the information war to such an extent that it is the predominant view in the setting books. Thus, most Lathanderites, their god silent, start praying to Amaunator.
Then in 5e Ao remakes the planes how he sees fit, and releases Lathander from Amaunator's grasp.
An aside:
Perhaps Lathander and Amaunator are different deities, but are also cut from the same cloth - some overgod-level sun ideal - and so that makes it easier for them to ride off each other's power. Lathander did come around relatively soon after Amaunator's faith began to fall (less than a couple of hundred years, if there was even a time gap), and Amaunator only reappeared after he was able to usurp Lathander. Perhaps in the new order, both can only have the power of lesser deities, rather than being greater deities if only one of them reigns supreme - giving some truth to the idea that they are related, but also separate.
Edit: Or maybe it's the simple fact that they're both sun-related, and folks like to pray to just one god of the sun - so they're always going to stepping on each others' toes, forever antagonists as the priests of the world try to get the world to have faith in only one sun god. Horus-Re would be another antagonist in this situation (and is mentioned as such in LEoF).
...and don't even get me started on the Three-Faced Sun heresy!
Edit 2: Was the "Deliverance" Lathander was telling his priests about back in 1371 (Faiths & Pantheons) him being "set free" (definition of deliverance) by the arrival of Amaunator? Or maybe foreseeing some release from mortal concerns? Controversial! |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 19 Apr 2017 13:25:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2017 : 13:24:03
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Regarding this
"1385 DR:
Many planes are shifted or destroyed as well. Only greater deities prove strong enough to maintain their realms against the resultant chaos. Tyr, Lathander, and Sune move against Cyric and successfully imprison the Black Sun in his Supreme Throne, under a sentence of house arrest to last one thousand years."
We also know that Tyr "died" fairly soon after the spellplague, and presumably so did Lathander. This tells me that WHATEVER happened here happened quickly, and makes me also doubt this one particular statement as either happening as stated or happening at all. For instance, maybe it was actually Amaunator (who is both a god of law and the sun... so the replacement for both Tyr and Lathander) and Sune (if it was truly even Sune and Sune wasn't replaced and no one knew).
Personally, I'm going with the idea that most of these god's domains became "connected" to Abeir, and what we're going to find out is that they "regrew" connections to Toril and the "great wheel" during the sundering. As a result, those deities that "died" were transferred to Abeir temporarily in order to drum up faith (and as a result, Ao is "fixing" a mistake he made long ago.... there being no or few primordials left in Abeir to rule it and/or fight with the estellar/gods). Now, few truly "know" that they can go to these specific deities domains to then access Abeir, but in time it will become known. Meanwhile, those deities are gathering a bit of worship from both worlds.
Consequently, any lands that transferred BACK to Abeir (which I'm positing as the underchasm and a portion of Tymanther) have also had any deity's domains that they worshipped while on Toril grow links to Abeir. This won't be many, as I see it... I only think Torm, Bahamut, and Takhisis were truly strong amongst them, though they probably had more.
Why do this? Well, in essence, you CAN have Abeir become a land somewhat in turmoil. You can do the whole thing where the remaining Titans and Estellar/gods are at war. That's if you wanted to do something where you use both worlds. If you didn't want to use both worlds, it wouldn't really matter. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2017 : 14:09:23
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I think that's a cool idea sleyvas, but my trouble with it is that at the time of the 4e setting, Abeir is described as godless.
Admittedly, what we know of Abeir is through what it was like before the Spellplague, we don't know what it's been like for the last hundred years - so maybe that would actually work. Even then it wouldn't work for Amaunator, who was specifically described as being a corpse in the Astral Sea pre-Spellplague, and then on Toril post-Spellplague. It might be a better fit for Lathander though - he could be in Abeir post-Spellplague, and then come to Toril in the Sundering.
I don't really see it, just because the whole "godless" thing is one of Abeir's few major differences from Toril. But, just as valid as any of my ideas!
EDIT:
And on the similarity to Pelor thing: the old face in the sun of that was Amaunator's symbol in 2e has obvious similarities to that of Pelor, but of more interest is the 5e symbol for Amaunator. In the SCAG, Amaunator's symbol is EXACTLY the 4e symbol for Pelor (six pointed star) on top of the 4e symbol for Amaunator (12 pointed star). Like, the design is exactly the same. No coincidence methinks. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 19 Apr 2017 14:43:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2017 : 17:13:04
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Well, Aumanator/Pelor can easily BE a primordial, thus he's already covered by the 'godless' thing.
Sune's a bit trickier - can't see a primordial being a 'goddess of beauty' - that's very much a mortal conceit. We also know that for a time she was one-and-the-same as Hanali Celanil, and that she is more-than likely Venus/Aphrodite (Sune-V spelled backwards is Venus). And she could very well be a few others, like Freya (who happens to be a Vanir, which probably makes her Hanali Celanil regardless), and maybe Innana/Ishtar (she does seem a lot like Freya).
Not seeing her as Tlazolteotl - that sounds more like Baast, in her Sharess guise.
Thus, if she is a singular god, I would never peg her as a primordial, but she may be one of the more ancient deities (ascended mortals). I'm sorely tempted to peg Slevas' "New Sune" as Baast for that reason (and she wasn't human - she started out a 'Beast Lord', so she gets a pass on the whole Abeir thing), but aside from the whole sex/love thing, she really doesn't fit as someone who would care about imprisoning Cyric at all (unless it was to get back at Shar somehow, who did try to take her over as Sharess). 'Vindictiveness' does fit in with the whole cat thing.
Its a hard sell, Sleyvas. I think its more likely that the lore is CORRECT, and that those gods over-stepped their bounds, and THAT is why they were replaced (Torm for Tyr, Aumanator for Lathander, Hanali for Sune - I would think this was a 'suggestion from on-high', rather then something that was physically forced, perhaps removing themselves from Realmspace for the same duration they imprisoned Cyric... maybe even as his 'keepers').
HOWEVER, post-Sundering, everything's changed again, and if Cyric is back, perhaps the originals are back as well (so we get TWO sun gods, Tyr retakes his place in the pantheon, and Hanali gives her position back to Sune). That scenario could help 'fudge' some of the 4e "this god is really that god" nonsense. The whole thing about them being the same was just a lie spread by all the churches to cover the fact they were banished (Ao and 'the gods' don't really want mortals up in their business). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2017 01:24:02 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 00:36:10
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An interesting point about the time of the imprisoning of Cyric, from the Crystal Mountain (which I have bought for a word search but haven't read yet):
quote:
Tyr, Lathander who has revealed his true form to be that of ancient Amaunator, incidentally and Sune have imprisoned Cyric. His own plane has become his prison. Eirwyn waved that bit of news away. That was inevitable, she said. What else? The backlash from Mystras demise swept through the Astral Plane. Waves of raw magic crashed against many shores. No one knows the extent of the destruction yet, but it appears that several planes vanished, while others merged together.
These are apparently the words of an archon of Mount Celestia, but I don't know the details. Main thing of interest is that it appears that it was Amaunator who took part in the binding of Cyric rather than Lathander.
I wonder if we'll ever get a more detailed explanation for everything that happened. Probably not, but it's a long life... |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 20 Apr 2017 00:43:33 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 01:30:48
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By the time the Celestial 'reported in', yes, Amaunator could have come back (called back by Ao). The way its worded, it could still have just been plain-vanilla Lathander who imprisoned Cyric, and THEN Lathander was banished/forced to become Cyric's keeper/whatever, and Aumanator steps up and declares that he was Lathander all along.
I don't usually like any lore regarding Cyric, but the more I think on this new theory of mine, the more sense it makes - some gods were 'punished' (for whatever reason) and were forced to 'retire' for a time, and Ao brought in other gods to take their place. Everyone lied to save any trouble with their churches. This doesn't have to just be these three we are discussing now - we could even say a similar thing happened in the cases of Gruumsh/Talos, and Chauntea/Yondalla. These gods were just given (temporary) ownership of that name and those portfolios for the duration of 4e. It was never really them.
Its the best way to mend all the confusing lore that I can come up with.
I still want to know why the 4e designers thought to make Sune Firehair - a relatively minor goddess in terms of 'celestial politics' (or even mundane politics) - play such a big part in the events at the end of 3e. The whole thing between Tyr and Helm was kind of her fault as well. And now what happens to the whole Tyr/Tymora thing? No cross-pantheon love? (since Tyr is Norse, and Tymora is one half of Tyche, who is Greek... was it just the 'Ty' thing?) 
Who'd she end up with? Or is she now snubbing both of them (Helm and Tyr) and she'll be next year's contestant on The Bachelorette? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2017 01:55:27 |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 01:37:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Lathander appeared to his chosen and spoke to him. For all this deities being more distant and mortals having to interpret their will on their own talk, the Sundering novels were choke-full of deities appearing and talking to mortals. More than usual for the FR
Even post-Sundering novels have examples of deities directly manifesting on Toril, WotC simply doesn't care about consistency anymore.
In any case, I like this new development. I never liked "X is actually an aspect of Y", so I'm totally fine with this new change. Canon has already become a mess anyway.
I think FR died a slow death since 2E. 3E started out okay. Then 3.5's becoming a mess with Myth Drannor, Netheril, Imaskar back and all. Then 4E is an absolute disaster. I can't even motivate myself to follow what crap's coming in 5E anymore. I just know that the last Drizzt book series by RAS is crap and I hope there will be no more Drizzt |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 01:58:18
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I think that's a cool idea sleyvas, but my trouble with it is that at the time of the 4e setting, Abeir is described as godless.
Admittedly, what we know of Abeir is through what it was like before the Spellplague, we don't know what it's been like for the last hundred years - so maybe that would actually work. Even then it wouldn't work for Amaunator, who was specifically described as being a corpse in the Astral Sea pre-Spellplague, and then on Toril post-Spellplague. It might be a better fit for Lathander though - he could be in Abeir post-Spellplague, and then come to Toril in the Sundering.
I don't really see it, just because the whole "godless" thing is one of Abeir's few major differences from Toril. But, just as valid as any of my ideas!
EDIT:
And on the similarity to Pelor thing: the old face in the sun of that was Amaunator's symbol in 2e has obvious similarities to that of Pelor, but of more interest is the 5e symbol for Amaunator. In the SCAG, Amaunator's symbol is EXACTLY the 4e symbol for Pelor (six pointed star) on top of the 4e symbol for Amaunator (12 pointed star). Like, the design is exactly the same. No coincidence methinks.
I'm not saying Amaunator came from Abeir. I'm saying possibly Lathander and Tyr (and maybe even Helm too) all actually went over to Abeir. Amaunator came along from SOMEWHERE... that I'm not defining... and swooped in to take advantage of these portfolios. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 02:16:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
By the time the Celestial 'reported in', yes, Amaunator could have come back (called back by Ao). The way its worded, it could still have just been plain-vanilla Lathander who imprisoned Cyric, and THEN Lathander was banished/forced to become Cyric's keeper/whatever, and Aumanator steps up and declares that he was Lathander all along.
I don't usually like any lore regarding Cyric, but the more I think on this new theory of mine, the more sense it makes - some gods were 'punished' (for whatever reason) and were forced to 'retire' for a time, and Ao brought in other gods to take their place. Everyone lied to save any trouble with their churches. This doesn't have to just be these three we are discussing now - we could even say a similar thing happened in the cases of Gruumsh/Talos, and Chauntea/Yondalla. These gods were just given (temporary) ownership of that name and those portfolios for the duration of 4e. It was never really them.
Its the best way to mend all the confusing lore that I can come up with.
I still want to know why the 4e designers thought to make Sune Firehair - a relatively minor goddess in terms of 'celestial politics' (or even mundane politics) - play such a big part in the events at the end of 3e. The whole thing between Tyr and Helm was kind of her fault as well. And now what happens to the whole Tyr/Tymora thing? No cross-pantheon love? (since Tyr is Norse, and Tymora is one half of Tyche, who is Greek... was it just the 'Ty' thing?)
Who'd she end up with? Or is she now snubbing both of them (Helm and Tyr) and she'll be next year's contestant on The Bachelorette?
Without a doubt, on the gods lying while the other gods were gone. That's been the assumption I've been working towards for a while.
Oh, and since Tyr/Tymora never married, I'd go with... its not happening. Given the events of the sundering novels though, do we see some kind of Helm / Siamorphe thing happening (i.e. what happens with their Chosen being mirrored to the gods). I don't recommend it, but it all did start with Siamorphe leaving to Sune's house.
Just to throw out there too. Tyr and Helm... Tyr and Heimdall. Cyric convinces Blind Tyr to kill Helm. Loki convinces Blind Hoder to kill Balder. Cyric being imprisoned for a long time... Loki being imprisoned for his actions in killing Balder. Lathander and Sune / Frey and Freya.
Not saying an exact mirroring, just saying somewhat they've had the gods playing roles in Norse mythology leading up to the spellplague. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Apr 2017 02:24:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 02:28:36
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And just to add one more interesting 'factoid' to the mix - when I went to Wiki to read up on Tyche, it turns out she's Aphrodite's (Venus) daughter, thus, Tymora is probably Sune's daughter (or half of her daughter...)
All that hubub because she was trying get her daugheter hitched to a nice feller.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2017 02:30:22 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 02:55:22
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Another interesting point on word-searching the Reaver for Amaunator and Lathander:
It doesn't seem like in the book either god directly claims to be the same as the other at any point. Randal, Sunlord of Amaunator, claims they are the same, and change between personas only over millennia, and quotes that as a reason Lathander cannot have returned after only a century. Meanwhile, Stedd of Lathander (only a child), also believes that they are the same, but the cycle isn't restricted to millennia. It's important to note that it says specifically that Stedd has never heard Lathander speak directly to him, and he only witnesses Lathander's avatar once - and that appearance doesn't reference Amauanator at all. So, I would say Stedd's belief in a Lathander-Amaunator-Lathander-etc cycle stems from his upbringing in a world of Amaunatori priests that emphasise the cycle. Meanwhile, the average folk (eg. Anton) just think Lathander is dead or disappeared, and don't display any particular belief in a cycle - and if they do, it's likely because of the influence of the priesthood of Amaunator.
So, the possibilities:
1. There is no cycle. Lathander and Amaunator are different deities.
2. The cycle is in a phase of change-over, and soon Amaunator will disappear. Although the cycle exists, they are different gods.
3. The cycle is in a phase of change-over, and soon Amaunator will disappear. The two gods are different personas of the same entity.
4. The cycle has changed over, and Amaunator has disappeared. In the SCAG era Lathander is answering prayers to him, just as Umberlee answers prayers to Panzuriel.
I find 3&4 unlikely, because Amaunator is just listed as a straight-up god in the SCAG. I find 2 unlikely because they are said to be different gods in Faiths and Avatars.
Whether or not some sort of cycle does exist isn't said outright in the novel, but by Faiths & Avatars and all the rest I would say that there is no cycle, it's just an Amaunatori story - so my vote goes with option 1.
However, the relationship between the two is still very mysterious. Sernett jokingly says on the podcast that Amaunator basically comes along and "beats up Lathander and takes his stuff", but the tone isn't serious enough to take as solid canon. My guess is still that they're different deities that both thrive on worship of the same thing (the sun), so they're in a tug-of-war type situation over divine power. At the current time, the tug-of-war is just pretty equal, so they both appear in the SCAG and can answer prayers.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I'm not saying Amaunator came from Abeir. I'm saying possibly Lathander and Tyr (and maybe even Helm too) all actually went over to Abeir. Amaunator came along from SOMEWHERE... that I'm not defining... and swooped in to take advantage of these portfolios.
I like it as much as anything else. They have to be somewhere, right? I had been kind of assuming that they were either trapped by other deities or dead (or close to it) and floating on the Astral.
Edit: added in an option above, and had another thought:
The Shard of the Sun found by Daelegoth Orndeir back in 1374 is from Complete Divine, and in that book is identified as an artifact of Pelor. Too many coincidences for this to not be a thing, surely. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 20 Apr 2017 03:12:54 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 07:36:51
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Yeah, for that matter, on the "where" Amaunator came from. Yes, there's Pelor as a possibility, just using the name of Amaunator or having been the original. Hell, there's also the vestige called Amon from Tome of Magic. It specifically says in that
"Although Amon once rules as a deity of light and justice, his long existence as a vestige has twisted him into a monster consumed by wrath." AND
"Scholars claim that Amon is what remains of the personality of a god who died of neglect millennia ago. Once worshipped by thousands, Amon eventually lost his faithful to more responsive deities. His will was strong enough, though, to resist eternal sleep on the astral plane. Since his demise, his half-existence as a vestige seems to have dramatically changed his appearance and personality. Once a calm and wise protector, a god of light and law, Amon is now a foul-tempered and hateful spirit." AND
"Amon particularly despises four other vestiges: Chupoclops, Eurynome, Karsus, and Leraje" and then says, "The reason for Amon's displeasure with these vestiges is unclear, but the enmity is as old as anyone can remember. Binder scholars theorize that it might stem from the time when Amon was a god and the other four were normal mortal or immortal beings."
So, of them all Karsus is definitely from Toril. He caused the fall of Netheril. After Netheril's fall, Amaunator disappeared. I could see the enmity. It would fit into things if somehow the spellplague or the creation of the small sun in northern faerun caused his release. Of the other beings, Chupoclops and Eurynome both appear to be primordials that perhaps fought with the gods/estellar. Why Leraje? Dunno, but rereading her entry reminds me why Corellon is a dick. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 08:43:20
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Lathander appeared to his chosen and spoke to him. For all this deities being more distant and mortals having to interpret their will on their own talk, the Sundering novels were choke-full of deities appearing and talking to mortals. More than usual for the FR
Even post-Sundering novels have examples of deities directly manifesting on Toril, WotC simply doesn't care about consistency anymore.
In any case, I like this new development. I never liked "X is actually an aspect of Y", so I'm totally fine with this new change. Canon has already become a mess anyway.
I think FR died a slow death since 2E. 3E started out okay. Then 3.5's becoming a mess with Myth Drannor, Netheril, Imaskar back and all. Then 4E is an absolute disaster. I can't even motivate myself to follow what crap's coming in 5E anymore. I just know that the last Drizzt book series by RAS is crap and I hope there will be no more Drizzt
You arr entirely correct in my opinion. I hate this god drivel and the mary sue stories, it is not what the realms was supposed to be about.
Who the gods really are affects precisely no one in the gaming world. Why is nobody trying to discover Khelben's past identities (because wotc ended that plot line), or where the manshoon clones are (they ended that one too), or who elminsters kids are (ended), or what massive complex the haunted halls of eveningstar are really connected too (probably ended), or the history of chessenta (ended), or any other number of plot lines that wotc ended and replaced with which god is which and which god is controlling who, and which god has the most powerful supertroll.
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 09:32:48
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Well, some of us find it interesting. And the gods do affect my game, at the very least through their churches. Part of this for me is figuring out what the derp the situation might be in Waterdeep's Spires of the Morning (under the power of Amaunator's clergy in 1479) now that Lathander's back. The story of such a struggle could be an interesting event in any Waterdeep campaign.
Back to the topic though, I also find it interesting that Amaunator's specialty priests in Faiths and Avatars can only be lawful neutral or lawful evil: no room for good? |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2017 : 13:36:02
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| Man, poor Pelor. Amaunator is Pholtus in all but name, but it's Pelor that gets the blame. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 01:28:24
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It's probably time for me to move on from this, but I just keep thinking about it!
Just read these bits in Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
Within these spheres of influence (eg. Faerunian sphere), while more than one deity may have similar portfolios, no more than one of such parallel powers can ascend in deific stature to a higher rank than demipower.
Long before the Time of Troubles, Ao evidently created some of the powers of the Realms, as well as the crystal sphere of Realmspace. However, he left the Realms powers to change and evolve for millennia untold before deciding that he needed to readjust the balance of the Realms and set in motion the events of the Time of Troubles.
Back in the day of Netheril, as far as we know, there is no Lathander, just Amaunator. I think the Netherese were Toril natives, so perhaps Amaunator was one of these first gods Ao birthed.
Then within a couple of hundred years of the fall of Netheril, we get Lathander - possibly first worshipped by the Talfir, as their own take on the sun god, partly based on Netherese legend, but mixed with their own culture (idea based on Races of Faerun). My theory is that this births the god Lathander from the divine power of Amaunator - as a separate power. Amaunator goes on for a little while but continues to fade, while Lathander grows in power.
Then a millenia and a half later, during the Age of Upheaval, we get Daelegoth Orndeir, the potential destruction of the House of Nature, the binding of Cyric, and finally the disappearance of Lathander and the rise of Amaunator. The divine struggle over the power of the sun results in Lathander being reduced to a demipower and being bound away by Amaunator, who attempts to resubsume his "child".
Then the Sundering happens, and Lathander manages to partly free himself. Through his Chosen he reinvigorates his faith in Faerun, hanging on - however, he is still potentially only a demipower, as the divine struggle over the "portfolio" (not exactly) of the sun goes on. Or, with Ao's "unshackling" of the portfolios in the Sundering (as mentioned by Sernett), the demipower-thing now longer applies, and they can both be whatever power level is appropriate. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 21 Apr 2017 01:31:33 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 02:28:38
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Lathander appeared to his chosen and spoke to him. For all this deities being more distant and mortals having to interpret their will on their own talk, the Sundering novels were choke-full of deities appearing and talking to mortals. More than usual for the FR
Even post-Sundering novels have examples of deities directly manifesting on Toril, WotC simply doesn't care about consistency anymore.
In any case, I like this new development. I never liked "X is actually an aspect of Y", so I'm totally fine with this new change. Canon has already become a mess anyway.
I think FR died a slow death since 2E. 3E started out okay. Then 3.5's becoming a mess with Myth Drannor, Netheril, Imaskar back and all. Then 4E is an absolute disaster. I can't even motivate myself to follow what crap's coming in 5E anymore. I just know that the last Drizzt book series by RAS is crap and I hope there will be no more Drizzt
You arr entirely correct in my opinion. I hate this god drivel and the mary sue stories, it is not what the realms was supposed to be about.
Who the gods really are affects precisely no one in the gaming world. Why is nobody trying to discover Khelben's past identities (because wotc ended that plot line), or where the manshoon clones are (they ended that one too), or who elminsters kids are (ended), or what massive complex the haunted halls of eveningstar are really connected too (probably ended), or the history of chessenta (ended), or any other number of plot lines that wotc ended and replaced with which god is which and which god is controlling who, and which god has the most powerful supertroll.
Man Daz, this stuff does affect the game world, and you know it. A lot of what I've been discussing drives my thoughts about what happened over in Abeir. I know you don't care what happened in Abeir, but for those of us who realize that we're going to have to accept it if we want to continue looking at new product.... best thing to do is figure out how to make it work. Personally, having all those regions return without having godly contact for a century would just suck. So instead, figure out a way that they did. Figure out which gods did what, and thus how the cultures on the other side got shaped (because religion does shape cultures), and then take that into account when they come back.
Are there a lot of old history things that can be explored? Sure. But honestly does that open up any new options? We can wish they'll do a 5e campaign setting that tells us who is the ruler over each Faerunian city, etc... but honestly, I'd rather see some exploration outside of Faerun with some minor updates to Faerun... just enough to kind of let us know some major happenings and let it grow organically. Meanwhile, these other places can start interacting more. I mean, we have spelljammers, flying ships, portals, etc.... it should be expected more that the world of Toril starts moving away from points of light and more towards an interconnected model again. That's its strength. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 02:40:56
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
It's probably time for me to move on from this, but I just keep thinking about it!
Just read these bits in Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
Within these spheres of influence (eg. Faerunian sphere), while more than one deity may have similar portfolios, no more than one of such parallel powers can ascend in deific stature to a higher rank than demipower.
Long before the Time of Troubles, Ao evidently created some of the powers of the Realms, as well as the crystal sphere of Realmspace. However, he left the Realms powers to change and evolve for millennia untold before deciding that he needed to readjust the balance of the Realms and set in motion the events of the Time of Troubles.
Back in the day of Netheril, as far as we know, there is no Lathander, just Amaunator. I think the Netherese were Toril natives, so perhaps Amaunator was one of these first gods Ao birthed.
Then within a couple of hundred years of the fall of Netheril, we get Lathander - possibly first worshipped by the Talfir, as their own take on the sun god, partly based on Netherese legend, but mixed with their own culture (idea based on Races of Faerun). My theory is that this births the god Lathander from the divine power of Amaunator - as a separate power. Amaunator goes on for a little while but continues to fade, while Lathander grows in power.
Then a millenia and a half later, during the Age of Upheaval, we get Daelegoth Orndeir, the potential destruction of the House of Nature, the binding of Cyric, and finally the disappearance of Lathander and the rise of Amaunator. The divine struggle over the power of the sun results in Lathander being reduced to a demipower and being bound away by Amaunator, who attempts to resubsume his "child".
Then the Sundering happens, and Lathander manages to partly free himself. Through his Chosen he reinvigorates his faith in Faerun, hanging on - however, he is still potentially only a demipower, as the divine struggle over the "portfolio" (not exactly) of the sun goes on. Or, with Ao's "unshackling" of the portfolios in the Sundering (as mentioned by Sernett), the demipower-thing now longer applies, and they can both be whatever power level is appropriate.
Bear this in mind as well, at any given time, there's been several sun gods active in the realms at once. Quite possibly at the same time we may have had Amaunator, Lathander, Ra, Utu, Tezca... and that is just from human pantheons (not to mention great spirits up in Anchorome)... plus probably some gods down in Zakhara/Kara-Tur/Malatra. Now, we might be able to say that some of those are the same, but never all of them. Some are evil bastards, some are good, some couldn't leave the material plane, etc... I'm sure if we start digging into other racial pantheons we'll find even more. Then there's the information we have that the sun is basically a planet with portals to the plane of fire all over it, so basically the sun itself probably has more ties to Kossuth than anyone.
So, what does it really mean to be "the sun god" because you obviously aren't in full control of the sun? It basically means "look at me I'm shiny" and usually that you don't like undead. Maybe it means something like the chosen of a god, in that you hold a portion of the suns power... so that if you die the other sun gods can keep the sun going. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 03:33:02
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And then there is the 'dead sun god' - the one that was killed during the Godwar in Realmspace (the War of Light & Darkness). I've been thinking for awhile now that this is a piece of misinformation. or rather, 'innaccurate reporting' in-game, but as we know from a meta-game perspective, really we have newer lore that overwrites some of this. So maybe we can mend it all somehow?
What if, after that first World was destroyed, the various Ordials (Overpowers - Supernals, Eternals, etc) gathered the shattered remnants and began to build the Spheres; I picture beings of immense power - power that would dwarf even that of gods. Ad I picture them 'singing' ("The Music of the Spheres"), but it isn't the type of music you here with your ears - you hear it with your soul. And then the Spheres begin to coalesce, the Overpowers taking this and that out, moving things around, rebuilding the first world in a million imperfect reflections. Each has the material they've gathered stashed in a side-plane, just out of sync with Reality, and they use this extra substance in their work. But Ao begins work on the most important part - the Prime world of the sphere, and for this he has saved a very special piece - he has the heart of Ymir, the firmament, kept beating by the sacrifice of Gaea, as she melded with the lifeless form of her decaying brother. And while the remains of the deceased Ordial made up the firmament, the magical essence that was Gaea - the 'Mana' - was also congealed into a being who would embody the magic and lifeforce of the sphere, the two-faced goddess* Mysharona. Thus the Prime Material as a crystal sphere is neither dead nor alive, but both, caught in a never-ending cycle of rebirth, maintained by the dual-natured goddess of magic.
And because Ao used the heart to form the core of Toril (adding more material as he worked from his 'stash'), this world was unique, in that it had connections to all other, like an echo of the circulatory system of the comatose Ordial, with conduits running all over the multiverse. In this endeavor the two aspects of Magic - Selūne and Shar - helped him, and they called this network the Road of Stars and Shadows. And when the rough world was finished being shaped by Ao, the conjoined sisters breathed life upon it, and Chauntea was born.
But Chauntea desired warmth in which to grow, and here "the two-who-were-one became divided, as for the first time they were of two minds".** Gaining the upper hand, Selūne ignited a world to warm Chauntea (the first sun), but Shar, in her fury, destroyed it. This is when Selūne sacrificed her own power, by ripping the magic (Gaea/mana) free of herself and piercing Shar straight-through, tearing her sister-self's magic from her as well. And so Mystryl was born, the child of war and anger, and she sided with her mother Selūne. With Shar held at bay by the two powers, Ao was able to take the destroyed 'new sun' ("The Dawn") and put it aside, in his bag of substance (the pocket plane that would become Abeir), for future use. he then fashioned a second sun from another world and set it alight, and the heat and brilliance drove Shar to the far corners of Realmspace... to plot and lick her wounds. The half-born sun would someday be Lathander, and the second sun - fully empowered by Ao himself - would someday be known as Aumanator (among other names).
So there was always two suns, and they probably weren't always called 'Lathander' and 'Aumanator' - those would be fairly new constructs by recent (comparatively) human civilizations.
Interestingly, Aumanator is called A'Tar by the Bedine, and is female. "She is a harlot who betrays her lawful husband Kozah ever day to sleep with N'sar, god of night and the dead." If Aumanator is actually Pelor (or rather, both are aspects of an even more ancient sun archtype), could N'sar be Nerull?
My thoughts here is that Lathander was actually first, but was 'extinguished' by Shar, so Aumanator took his place. Then after the fall of Nethril, either Ao banished Aumanator for a time (perhaps for not doing more to protect his flock, and Mystryl), or Aumanator left of his own accord (several possibilities are give in his entry, and one is that he took up the mantle of sun god on other worlds... Pelor?) then Ao took his stored piece of Lathander, now fully restored (I guess he was 'incubating' inside Abeir all that time), and restored him to power in Realmspace. And this is how it remained until The Spellplague. Note that just before the return of Aumanator, some fool with a heresy actually created a 'second sun' - did he manage to open a portal allowing Aumanator to return? Another (canon) theory - from F&A - says that Aumanator may have gone 'into the east' and became part of their pantheon for time (although there is no mention of such a thing in K-T lore, so how could that have gone unnoticed? K-T's history is Imaskari history, and that goes back MUCH further than Netheril).
*In the entry on Shar in F&A, in the sidebar, it specifically states that they were one 'two-faced goddess".
**This - and any other sentences in italics - are also straight out of F&A; direct quotes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Apr 2017 15:49:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 04:33:52
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I kinda lost my point above (that happens a LOT lol).
Basically, what I was saying is that instead of me saying that Shar and Selūne were part of the first 'Godswar' that took place in 'the age of legends' ("The Time before Time", etc), the stuff involving them happened soon after, in the aftermath of that war which destroyed the First World. I picture tons of energy and matter just spewed about (The Elemental Maelstrom?), and Ao forming a big 'gob' of that into Mysharona (my name for the conjoined deity she was at first), which later split and had its own 'mini godwar' (all those 'brushfire wars' that happened locally - in individual spheres/planes - that continue to happen even to this day, as a result of the Godswar).
Her 'creative' (positive) aspect wanted to make life happen, and her 'dark side' (negative) aspect was against it, hence the split. I suspect the Elder Elemental Eye or 'the Dark God' (I think they are different) was whispering bad things in Shar's ear, turning her against her sister. If it was 'The dark God', then I'd say that was Erebus (or rather, Erebus is just one aspect of 'The Dark God'). I wanted Erebus as Shar's 'father', but I was surprised the text in F&A says the two were the same being at one time (Mystyrl and Shar), so that doesn't work as well, plus it says Ao created them (and they, in turn, created everything else).
Now, here's the weird part - if Mystra is an amalgam of the two halves - one Selūne, one Shar - than shouldn't Mystra actually be the original, unified persona of the two? Sort of how Tyche should still be the unified persona of Beshaba and Tymora.
Two suns, two moons, two 'lucks', etc... I am starting to think every FR god is half of something else. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 14:20:29
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Hmmm, so something interesting just popped in my head.
Dawn Cataclysm - splitting of Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba.... what if they weren't the only gods split during this upheaval?
We have Amon the vestige (who appears to be something like Amaunatar) and we have the goddess At'ar. Put them together.... Amonat'ar....
Now, At'ar was "married" to Kozah/Talos... but she whorishly went into the tent of N'asr (who WAS Myrkul) as the sun went down (i.e. dusk... and Myrkul was "Lord of Dusk").
What if Tyche, Kozah, Jergal (figuring Myrkul took over), and Moander worked together to corrupt Amaunator (i.e. it was actually Amaunator who was courting Tyche, and Tyche bestowed misfortune on Amaunator)? What if this corrupting splitting of many of the Netherese gods is what Jergal foresaw coming when he gave up his portfolios to Bane/Bhaal/Myrkul? I can see this splitting of Amaunator benefitting all of them... for Tyche, its misfortune for a god.... for Kozah/Talos, its the destruction of a god.... for Jergal, its the "death"/"murder" of a god.... and for Moander, its the "corruption" of a god... This would also fit with Moander's title of "The Darkbringer". In return for their aid, Kozah and Jergal would receive some of the sun's power (i.e. Kozah gaining control of the fiery sun of noon, Jergal the nightly "death" of the sun) from the viewpoint of mortal belief.
Moander, after splitting "the sun"/Amaunator into male and female halves (Amon and At'ar), casts the "good half" Amon into "the place where vestiges go"... to fester and turn evil
In comes Ao (or maybe just an interloper from another pantheon sees opportunity), when he goes to the pantheon of the Aeaeree and invites the Phoenix over to take over the sun's portfolios, representing the "Rebirth" of the sun as the entity known as Lathander. This action is completed by the seeds of "death" (Jergal) and "destruction" (Kozah) both impregnating At'ar... and she gives "birth" to Lathander and is destroyed in the process (it should be noted that in the Anauroch supplement, it presents At'ar as a deity who doesn't actually interact with the world.... which could mean she's dead, and the Bedine have simply kept telling the story of At'ar servicing both Kozah and Nas'r).
Meanwhile, Moander moves on to Tyche, even though she helped him before. He begins splitting her into Tymora and Beshaba, with the intent of also hurling Tymora into "the place where vestiges go" and leaving behind only Beshaba. By this time, "Lathander" has grown and goes to Grandma Selune for help in safely splitting Tyche like she had split herself from Shar.
It might even be possible to somehow mix in the deaths of two other sun gods at roughly the same time (because two other sun gods, Ra and Utu, died in -1071 DR at the hands of Gruumsh and possibly other orc deities.... such that the rotting death of Amaunator may have spanned centuries, and for a time there may have only been At'ar, and then Lathander). None of this has to have happened all at once, such that the whole Dawn cataclysm could have spanned an entire Millenia or so. Jergal may have foreseen that Moander would turn on him as well, much as he did Tyche, and that's why he gave up his portfolios. Hell, it might even be that Moander also betrayed Kozah as well, since we later have Talos (possibly associated with fire/volcanos) and Bhaelros (a wind/lightning deity).... not sure that I like that though.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 15:06:29
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The timing is problematic. Though there is TSR/WotC's inexplicable refusal to put a timeframe on the Dawn Cataclysm, signs point to it being in the early 700s DR -- well after Lathander was known to be around and being worshiped, and after the fall of Amaunator.
We know that Tyche's split happened during the Dawn Cataclysm, and we know when her church split -- that was in the 700s DR, per the 3E FRCS.
The point could be argued, but I personally think it highly unlikely that there would be any kind of delay between Tyche splitting and the schism that split her church into the churches of Tymora and Beshaba. I would expect that they started separating their worshipers within days or weeks of the split. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Apr 2017 15:07:49 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 15:11:24
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Also need to consider that At'ar likely never existed.
From Faiths and Avatars:
quote:
The cautious regard the Bedine have for At'ar has never brought them any answer to their prayers, however, because At'ar does not exist. She is but a twisted memory of Amaunator, the ancient Netherese god of law and the sun, derived from tales that the migrant ancestors of the nomadic Bedine were told by the survivors of the fall of Netheril.
As I've said over in the Anauroch thread, I suspect that Amaunator may have been still a little active after Netheril's fall, but as a merciless god that just wanted the sun to burn those that had lost faith in him, solely using his power to turn the southern Anauroch into a powerfully hot desert - and that's where At'ar the Merciless comes from. But that's just a theory. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 21 Apr 2017 15:12:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 15:27:56
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Me, I think that Lathander was originally a servant of Amaunator -- maybe a really powerful planar of some type, or perhaps a demigod in direct service to Amaunator, the way Gwaeron Windstrom is more defined by his service to Mielikki than as a deity in his own right. As Amaunator declined, Lathander became more and more appealing to those who worshiped the sun but didn't dig Amaunator's lawful stance (or associated him with the fall of Netheril), eventually becoming a full-on independent power.
Lathander's silence during the lost century could have been because Amaunator's return caused problems, with the former servant refusing to return to his subordinate position. It could have been that it was nothing more than a divine legal battle (not the first for Amaunator) with the latter asserting his legal dominance of Lathander, and Lathander being quiet while he fought for his independence. (Or perhaps he had no choice but to return to Amaunator's service, while fighting to reclaim his independence)
Another thought... I've mentioned, more than once, my distaste for the tripartite sun deity idea. But what if the idea of one entity with three faces was a flawed understanding of the real situation? What if the reality was that Lathander and a former deity of dusk were servants of Amaunator? This theoretical dusk servant could have been slain by the Dark Three on their way to apotheosis, giving Myrkul that portfolio. This links the three deities in a way that could be misunderstood by mortals as the 3-faced thing, while retaining each of them being independent entities.
(It has similarly occurred to me that perhaps Tyche was served by her daughter deities, Tymora and Beshaba, who had split Tyche's duties between them. Perhaps Moander's corruption caused Tyche to attack Selūne, who inadvertently destroyed her friend. Tyche's power then flowed to Tymora and Beshaba, instead of going to Moander, as he'd originally planned. Suddenly, both demigods were much more powerful, promoted into full and independent deities) |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2017 : 16:11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And then there is the 'dead sun god' - the one that was killed during the Godwar in Realmspace (the War of Light & Darkness).
What's this now? I remember the sun being covered up and some other shiznazz going on, but I don't recall a dead sun god. Source?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, I think that Lathander was originally a servant of Amaunator -- maybe a really powerful planar of some type, or perhaps a demigod in direct service to Amaunator, the way Gwaeron Windstrom is more defined by his service to Mielikki than as a deity in his own right. As Amaunator declined, Lathander became more and more appealing to those who worshiped the sun but didn't dig Amaunator's lawful stance (or associated him with the fall of Netheril), eventually becoming a full-on independent power.
Lathander's silence during the lost century could have been because Amaunator's return caused problems, with the former servant refusing to return to his subordinate position. It could have been that it was nothing more than a divine legal battle (not the first for Amaunator) with the latter asserting his legal dominance of Lathander, and Lathander being quiet while he fought for his independence. (Or perhaps he had no choice but to return to Amaunator's service, while fighting to reclaim his independence)
Another thought... I've mentioned, more than once, my distaste for the tripartite sun deity idea. But what if the idea of one entity with three faces was a flawed understanding of the real situation? What if the reality was that Lathander and a former deity of dusk were servants of Amaunator? This theoretical dusk servant could have been slain by the Dark Three on their way to apotheosis, giving Myrkul that portfolio. This links the three deities in a way that could be misunderstood by mortals as the 3-faced thing, while retaining each of them being independent entities.
(It has similarly occurred to me that perhaps Tyche was served by her daughter deities, Tymora and Beshaba, who had split Tyche's duties between them. Perhaps Moander's corruption caused Tyche to attack Selūne, who inadvertently destroyed her friend. Tyche's power then flowed to Tymora and Beshaba, instead of going to Moander, as he'd originally planned. Suddenly, both demigods were much more powerful, promoted into full and independent deities)
I do kind of like the idea that Lathander was Amaunator's servant. It kind of fits with most stuff - especially that they're never really depicted as being directly antagonistic to one another. As to the Three Faced Sun heresy, consider that Jergal had a cordial relationship with Amaunator back in ancient Netheril, and is a good fit for that role. I also like the idea of the heresy being a misunderstanding of the true situation: Amaunator plus two servants.
The main problem I have is that it feels like there should have been some sort of hint that Lathander was once a servant of Amaunator somewhere in the lore if this was the case. But, a plus side for it is that ELB has been a proponent of the Three Faced heresy in the past I think, and, well, he's Eric Boyd. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 21 Apr 2017 16:12:17 |
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