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moonbeast
Learned Scribe

USA
281 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2017 :  19:15:27  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Man. The Heavens of the (D&D) Gods must be a crowded place. I can imagine all of Faerun's dozens of wargods having a shouting match with each other:

"I am Spartacus!"

"No, I am Spartacus!"

"Liar! I am the REAL Spartacus!"

"No joo dumdums! Me is Spartakus!"

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2017 :  19:44:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gods/Outsiders in their natural state are pure energy, thus, "a million angels can fit on the head of a pin".

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29908 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2017 :  20:00:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The best thing about Cyric is that his ascension made Myrkul more interesting.

Spinning my original explanation a bit further... Maybe the whole "tripartite sun deity" idea (of which I have expressed my disagreement more than once) was a heresy designed to weaken Lathander.

I'm now thinking that as an aspect of a specific time of day, that Lathander may have originally been a servant of Amaunator. As the latter's influence waned, Lathander's power and influence grew. The idea that Amaunator and Lathander were aspects of a single deity came from mortal speculation, and as an attempt to weaken the influence of sun deities in general, Shar had her servants incorporate Myrkul into the mix, and push it until it was a full-on heresy. (The whole idea being that even light and good eventually succumb to darkness and evil).

When the Spellplague happened, something (still working on this part) weakened Lathander enough for Shar to temporarily sideline him, allowing Amaunator to reclaim some of his lost power, which appeared to prove the heresy -- one face had faded and another had risen.

Of course, then the Sundering happens, and Myrkul comes back, along with Lathander. Now that all three faces of what was supposedly one deity are showing at once, it rather disproves the heresy.

This is just a potential, in-setting explanation for the whole mess. I prefer not to have any of it, including the original tripartite deity idea, and I think Myrkul had a lot more potential as an artifact than his "ooh, death is scary!" divinity.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Apr 2017 20:02:45
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2606 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2017 :  20:01:04  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Gods/Outsiders in their natural state are pure energy, thus, "a million angels can fit on the head of a pin".



I've never liked that concept, because energy can take a lot of forms, but in most cases energy is basically stuff moving in a given way. For example *many* transformations that free up energy boil up to particles moving faster; emission of light, electricity, or magnetism, or the forces that keep everything together, boil down to things moving in a specific way. Energy is constantly being transformed, but it's always there. Even when matter is "created", energy is still there. It's far from being a definite thing, more the expression of a state, so I really can't wrap my mind about something being pure energy (especially when, if you go to an outer plane, you can still touch everything).

I just prefer to leave the actual form of deities unknown. I mean, you could cut the problem and say that outsiders are basically like sentient stars, in order to actually picture them, but I personally find that rather uninspiring.

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Edited by - Irennan on 17 Apr 2017 20:04:03
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
649 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2017 :  04:26:05  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

When the Spellplague happened, something (still working on this part) weakened Lathander enough for Shar to temporarily sideline him, allowing Amaunator to reclaim some of his lost power, which appeared to prove the heresy -- one face had faded and another had risen.

This is the really interesting question that has never really been answered fully as far as I can tell - what happened to all the gods when the Spellplague struck? What were its wider-ranging effects? Still have to get to the Empyrean Odyssey trilogy - does that have any clues?

My own searches yield this gem from Ed, in his thread from the 12th of Feb, 2015, talking about Tiamat:
quote:
When the Spellplague struck, it didn’t just affect Toril (and Abeir); its ripples tore through the multiverse, wreaking havoc large and small. Dragon Eyrie disintegrated, and although the plane of the great “Dragon Mountain” was linked to Avernus (and other planes), in the tumult of destruction a stunned and half-crushed Azharul (“physically torn open like a fowl spatchcocked or butterflied for the grill,” as described by one who saw his violent arrival in the Barrens) was hurled violently into Gehenna (Banehold), where an opportunistic Bane pounced on the dazed and physically ruined draconic deity to enslave it—and discovered Tiamat’s presence.

We know that Lathander's home base for Toril was the House of Nature (different from Elysium, his "home" by 1e/2e standards). In 4e, the gods of the House of Nature either ended up in the Deep Wilds, or the Green Fields, or they were just unheard of. The House of Nature itself may well have been destroyed, much like Dragon Eyrie was.

It's my theory that in the chaos of a destroyed plane, gods are flung across the multiverse just as Tiamat was. However, Greater Gods are able to reform new planes. The greater gods of the House of Nature had been Lathander, Silvanus, and Chauntea. It's my theory that Silvanus reshaped the House of Nature into the Deep Wilds, where he was became the sole 4e greater power (an alternate theory would have him reshaping Fury's Heart into the Deep Wilds), and Chauntea forged a part of Mount Celestia into a new Green Fields (where she became the sole 4e greater power). That gets us to their 4e situation.

One theory to help explain what happened to Lathander could be that he reached for the power of the sun to create his own new plane, but in doing so he inadvertently awoke the power of Amaunator. Lathander's actions do indeed create a new plane - The Eternal Sun - but it also results in a huge power-flux into Amaunator. The drain of Lathander's power needed to create the new plane allows Amaunator to bind him away and usurp his role as the primary god of the sun on Toril. Amaunator thus becomes the sole greater power of The Eternal Sun, and he is soon joined there by Siamorphe and Waukeen. That's the post-Spellplague 4e situation for these gods.

Then in the Sundering, the 4e planes of the gods are undone by Ao, and we are returned to either the World Tree or the Great Wheel setup for Faerun, or a combination of the two. If the former, the House of Nature is reforged and Lathander returns there, and maybe Amaunator goes to the House of the Triad where there's a bunch of LG and LN deities, and his buddy Siamorphe. If the Great Wheel is the way to go, Lathander would end up back in Elysium, whereas Amaunator might end up back in his 2e plane of Mechanus (he's back to LN in the SCAG).

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 18 Apr 2017 04:31:08
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29908 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2017 :  04:34:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oooh, I like that one. And it takes Shar out of the tale, too; that was a weakness in my idea.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2606 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2017 :  04:43:35  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

When the Spellplague happened, something (still working on this part) weakened Lathander enough for Shar to temporarily sideline him, allowing Amaunator to reclaim some of his lost power, which appeared to prove the heresy -- one face had faded and another had risen.

This is the really interesting question that has never really been answered fully as far as I can tell - what happened to all the gods when the Spellplague struck? What were its wider-ranging effects? Still have to get to the Empyrean Odyssey trilogy - does that have any clues?

My own searches yield this gem from Ed, in his thread from the 12th of Feb, 2015, talking about Tiamat:
quote:
When the Spellplague struck, it didn’t just affect Toril (and Abeir); its ripples tore through the multiverse, wreaking havoc large and small. Dragon Eyrie disintegrated, and although the plane of the great “Dragon Mountain” was linked to Avernus (and other planes), in the tumult of destruction a stunned and half-crushed Azharul (“physically torn open like a fowl spatchcocked or butterflied for the grill,” as described by one who saw his violent arrival in the Barrens) was hurled violently into Gehenna (Banehold), where an opportunistic Bane pounced on the dazed and physically ruined draconic deity to enslave it—and discovered Tiamat’s presence.

We know that Lathander's home base for Toril was the House of Nature (different from Elysium, his "home" by 1e/2e standards). In 4e, the gods of the House of Nature either ended up in the Deep Wilds, or the Green Fields, or they were just unheard of. The House of Nature itself may well have been destroyed, much like Dragon Eyrie was.

It's my theory that in the chaos of a destroyed plane, gods are flung across the multiverse just as Tiamat was. However, Greater Gods are able to reform new planes. The greater gods of the House of Nature had been Lathander, Silvanus, and Chauntea. It's my theory that Silvanus reshaped the House of Nature into the Deep Wilds, where he was became the sole 4e greater power (an alternate theory would have him reshaping Fury's Heart into the Deep Wilds), and Chauntea forged a part of Mount Celestia into a new Green Fields (where she became the sole 4e greater power). That gets us to their 4e situation.

One theory to help explain what happened to Lathander could be that he reached for the power of the sun to create his own new plane, but in doing so he inadvertently awoke the power of Amaunator. Lathander's actions do indeed create a new plane - The Eternal Sun - but it also results in a huge power-flux into Amaunator. The drain of Lathander's power needed to create the new plane allows Amaunator to bind him away and usurp his role as the primary god of the sun on Toril. Amaunator thus becomes the sole greater power of The Eternal Sun, and he is soon joined there by Siamorphe and Waukeen. That's the post-Spellplague 4e situation for these gods.

Then in the Sundering, the 4e planes of the gods are undone by Ao, and we are returned to either the World Tree or the Great Wheel setup for Faerun, or a combination of the two. If the former, the House of Nature is reforged and Lathander returns there, and maybe Amaunator goes to the House of the Triad where there's a bunch of LG and LN deities, and his buddy Siamorphe. If the Great Wheel is the way to go, Lathander would end up back in Elysium, whereas Amaunator might end up back in his 2e plane of Mechanus (he's back to LN in the SCAG).



That's a well crafted explanation, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2017 :  07:39:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the idea that gods ended up in their own, specific planes after their 'group homes' were destroyed, because it shoe-horns with one of my theories - that a god's own demesne (domain) is just itself. In other words, if a god is just energy (and what we see are just manifestations), then its domain is really the inside of its own mind - a reality created inside itself (since the thing's mind is its body).

When you (or even another outsider/god) enters a god's domain, you are entering the god's own 'personal space' - its 'private reality'. There is no difference between 'the god' and 'the place' - its all one and the same. They manifest an image for you to interact with, but that all it is. That why they have complete control within their domains - they are literally their own 'pocket planes'.

So when those group planes (mini-pantheons; I stole a word once from a Kurt Vonnegut novel - a Karass - for these) imploded (or whatever), the gods were definitely 'cast out', but if i am correct, then they didn't need to build planes - they ARE the planes. They went into 'default mode' and became individual demi-planes.

At least, thats how I am seeing it. Not really all that different from what you are saying - I am just assuming they can skip a step, because a deity is its own domain. Later on, they can 'pool' their power and create these greater domains for multiple entities (forming a group-mind?) - that could be the situation in 5e. Except with so many gods returning, and new gods joining the ranks, perhaps some new 'cliches' are in order, so these sorts of things may not be finalized yet in the cosmology (which is why we don't even really have a cosmology in 5e - its still 'coalescing' into something coherent).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Apr 2017 07:44:30
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
649 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2017 :  12:23:48  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ever since I sat down and documented where the gods' planes were across editions, I've found it an interesting factoid that there was only one greater power per plane post-Spellplague. That's what led to my above theory.

There is a sole exception in that the Gates of the Moon is home to both Selune and Sune, and both are greater goddesses in 4e. However, the Gates of the Moon was also a 3e plane, and is where all of the gods of Brightwater (save Waukeen) including Sune ended up post-Spellplague. So my guess is that Sune is the sole 4e greater power that didn't create a new plane, instead taking refuge in Selune's, which that goddess managed to hold together despite the Spellplague (perhaps even with Sune's aid).

It's all additionally complicated by power fluctuations of gods between editions - for instance, Selune became a greater power, and Ghaunadaur jumped from being a lesser power pre-Spellplague to being a greater power post-Spellplague. The 4e FRCG hints that the latter case may be linked to the rise of the Abolethic Sovereignty at the same time, but there are many stories of the gods that are unfortunately likely to remain untold. I'm sure there's a great series of novels that could be written about the chaos of the immediately post-Spellplague period in the gods' domains.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 18 Apr 2017 12:25:43
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5353 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2017 :  13:00:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

Which directly contradicts what was stated in "The Reaver" by Lathander himself to his chosen

Did they even talk to their authors? Did anyone proofread the last novels?



Aren't we beyond the idea that "gods can't lie?". Its just some are really good at it (aka Leira). What better way to convert folk who already share a lot of your ideals.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5353 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2017 :  13:10:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Eh. Tis what it is! I'm still enjoying myself, sorry to hear others aren't.

I did a word-search in the Reaver for anywhere Lathander claims to be the same as Amaunator and couldn't find anything. Stedd seems to believe it, but my guess is that's being filtered through a century of the teachings of Amaunator's priests. He's just interpreting the signs/visions/feelings given to him by Lathander through the sieve of his own experience (he says at one point Lathander doesn't tell him things directly) - though I haven't read it yet and would love to see quotes that put forth a different view. I'll get there in a couple of months.

One of the points of emphasis in the podcast was that individuals in the world have to interpret the signs of the gods themselves now - the gods don't explain things in words (at least not as often or as widely), it's part of the "more distant" thing post-Sundering. Mortals have to figure things out for themselves, giving more power to individual prophets that claim to be able to interpret the will of the gods. Sometimes those prophets may be misguided.

I'm just interpreting all this through my own sieve though, so YMMV. I'm not a fan of how 4e merged gods, and this kind of explanation works better for me. I kind of like the idea that the Amaunator-Lathander rebirth thing was some bull sold to mortals by Amaunator's priests to buy up the disappeared Lathander's worshippers. After all, everyone thought it was a heresy back in 1374 - the trouble was that Lathander stopped answering prayers, so people started buying into it.



There were suggestions about that one before 4E; I think it was originally suggested on the REALMS-L list.

It just occurred to me that maybe Lathander's silence was an involuntary thing -- perhaps, during the chaos of the Spellplague, he was wounded or captured. Even though I hate using Shar, since she's so overplayed, it seems like a fun idea that she was involved in sidelining Lathander and bringing back Amaunator. Sure, Amaunator would be an enemy of hers, as well, but he's older, thus more predictable, and his harsh nature could actually drive people away from law and light. Plus, Lathander was all about hope and new beginnings, and that's far more antithetical to Shar's portfolios than sunlight and law.



Or was sent to Abeir and some other entity calling itself Amaunator took up his place in his absence (which could be a LOT of beings when one considers just how many sun gods there have been in the realms).

SIDE NOTE: If we were to accept some of the DM's Guild products as decent enough for undeveloped areas, the Lopango, Land of the Sacred Sun supplement has a "manifestation"/"avatar"/"Titan"/"Primordial" named Intiri that lives on a mountaintop and is served by his sun priests. He's crowned in feathers and he's surrounded by flames. While he will protect his people, he expects them to be self-sufficient and tries not to get involved in their day to day problems. His mother is Mama Carocha (who disappeared when Maztica died, and whom they state IS Maztica) and his father is Virachoa (whom they state IS Kukul).

I personally don't know why, but I like this deity. Also, much like Qotal aka Ubtao left Maztica because of Zaltec... and that Ubtao is a feathered serpent... I suspect that Intiri is Lathander and he was forced to go into the Lopango and eventually on to Faerun due to Tezca.... IF we accept this idea, and we accept that Kukul/Virachoa is Kukulkan (who was another feathered serpent deity)... then Kukul/Qotal/Intiri would all be "feathered deities" which may mean they were originally from the Aeaeree (sp?). In this scenario, I'd place Intiri / Lathander as a Phoenix like being, which fits his portfolio of rebirth, fire like the sun, etc... It could also explain why Lathander would get pulled to Abeir (i.e. his "other self" over in the Lopango got shifted over and he was dragged with it).


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 18 Apr 2017 13:58:14
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2017 :  13:43:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Eh. Tis what it is! I'm still enjoying myself, sorry to hear others aren't.

I did a word-search in the Reaver for anywhere Lathander claims to be the same as Amaunator and couldn't find anything. Stedd seems to believe it, but my guess is that's being filtered through a century of the teachings of Amaunator's priests. He's just interpreting the signs/visions/feelings given to him by Lathander through the sieve of his own experience (he says at one point Lathander doesn't tell him things directly) - though I haven't read it yet and would love to see quotes that put forth a different view. I'll get there in a couple of months.

One of the points of emphasis in the podcast was that individuals in the world have to interpret the signs of the gods themselves now - the gods don't explain things in words (at least not as often or as widely), it's part of the "more distant" thing post-Sundering. Mortals have to figure things out for themselves, giving more power to individual prophets that claim to be able to interpret the will of the gods. Sometimes those prophets may be misguided.

I'm just interpreting all this through my own sieve though, so YMMV. I'm not a fan of how 4e merged gods, and this kind of explanation works better for me. I kind of like the idea that the Amaunator-Lathander rebirth thing was some bull sold to mortals by Amaunator's priests to buy up the disappeared Lathander's worshippers. After all, everyone thought it was a heresy back in 1374 - the trouble was that Lathander stopped answering prayers, so people started buying into it.



There were suggestions about that one before 4E; I think it was originally suggested on the REALMS-L list.

It just occurred to me that maybe Lathander's silence was an involuntary thing -- perhaps, during the chaos of the Spellplague, he was wounded or captured. Even though I hate using Shar, since she's so overplayed, it seems like a fun idea that she was involved in sidelining Lathander and bringing back Amaunator. Sure, Amaunator would be an enemy of hers, as well, but he's older, thus more predictable, and his harsh nature could actually drive people away from law and light. Plus, Lathander was all about hope and new beginnings, and that's far more antithetical to Shar's portfolios than sunlight and law.



Or was sent to Abeir and some other entity calling itself Amaunator took up his place in his absence (which could be a LOT of beings when one considers just how many sun gods there have been in the realms).

Ohhh... I like that. Maybe Pelor wasn't Aumanator, but because of the Spellplague weirdness he got his foot in the door (of Realmspace), and latched onto an already known name and heresy to establish himself? On the other hand, it could just have been a previous alias of his that he abandoned (when his 'flock' - the Netherese - decided to cause magic to fail), and is now taking back up again... so many possibilities.

About why Shar may have sponsored a return of Aumanator - the casual answer might be that she was hoping to control him. With the return of Nethreril, she may have obscure reasons for wanting to prop-up the old Netherese pantheon again (since the Shades would put her at the top of the food-chain in that). An even easier, more straight-forward reason would be 'divide & conquer'. Defeating 15 smaller 'sun gods' is probably a LOT easier than defeating one monolithic (Faerűn-spanning) sun god. With Ra gone, Lathander was probably becoming too big a threat.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5353 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2017 :  14:09:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and on the aforementioned concept of Kukul / Intiri / Qotal being related to "undefined" / Lathander / Ubtao ... its an unspoken thing that I believe that some of the other deities that came into the Maztican pantheon (specifically the elemental ones, Plutoq, Tezca, Eha, and Azul, and also Zaltec) are interlopers and not directly related to Maztica & Kukul despite how the legends may have twisted (I still like Kiltzi, Nula, and Watil as sisters of Qotal & Intiri). Also, some of those elemental deities MAY correspond to the lords of elemental evil (or they may not) or the neutral lords of the elements (i.e. Plutoq may be Grumbar, etc...).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

230 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2017 :  15:43:42  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ohhh... I like that. Maybe Pelor wasn't Aumanator, but because of the Spellplague weirdness he got his foot in the door (of Realmspace), and latched onto an already known name and heresy to establish himself? On the other hand, it could just have been a previous alias of his that he abandoned (when his 'flock' - the Netherese - decided to cause magic to fail), and is now taking back up again... so many possibilities.



Pelor assuming the title of "Amaunator" has potential as well, and of course begs the question which of the other "returned" deities are in this boat as well? Since I am theorizing that many, many deities are now taking refuge in the Realms in the wake of the Spellplague. (Don't be too upset with Cyric when he spends the next 1000 years destroying other worlds to save mortals from the evils of divinity, and causing deities to go to the only place Cyric can't follow... Toril.)

Something I have found helpful with conceptualizing the deities in the Realms is thinking along the lines of Earth's historical nobility. For example, in the WW2 era, when King George V died and King Edward VIII abdicated the throne, Edward's younger brother assumed the name/title of King George VI (his name was really Albert, but King Albert would have sounded a little too... German).

So, I am thinking that perhaps "Amaunator I" was the only real Amaunator... Lathander may have assumed the name/title of "Amaunator II" during the Spellplague, and subsequently abdicated that responsibility to Pelor once the Sundering rolls around, and Pelor assumes the name/title of "Amaunator III"... If Lathander really wanted to keep the name/title of "Amaunator II", the "neutral good sun god" similarities between Pelor & Lathander probably would have necessitated Pelor assuming the name/title of "Lathander II"... But, I suspect Lathander wasn't comfortable in the "Lawful" role he assumed temporarily, nor would he be comfortable with what Pelor might do to the name/title of "Lathander".

This stuff also ties in really well with a lot of theorizing people have done to reconcile Bane's multiversal continuity issues... because I noticed that Bane's symbol changed from a Hand grasping Green Light (Xvim as Bane) to a Claw with Three Fingers (multiversal Bane), suggesting that the current Bane is "Bane III"... This also helps to validate both Markustay's and Wooly's theories about Bane: Asmodeus assumed the name/title of "Bane I", Iyachtu Xvim assumed the name/title of "Bane II", and the Original/Multiversal Bane reclaimed his name/title as "Bane III".

(I know there have been suggestions that the Multiversal Bane is actually Ares, and not related to the Original Bane... However, I prefer to think that when the Original Bane gave his Torilian Divinity to Asmodeus in exchange for a Multiversal Divinity... Asmodeus enabled the Original Bane to usurp the Multiversal Divinity of Ares).

...A lot of possibilities here...

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Edited by - Cyrinishad on 18 Apr 2017 15:53:35
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
649 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2017 :  08:59:37  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Been reading a bit more about Amaunator and Lathander, some more thoughts.

2nd Edition
Amaunator is worshipped during the time of Netheril. His worship sharply drops off after Netheril's fall (-339 DR), and he becomes a corpse on the Astral Plane about a millenium after Netheril's fall (very approximately 661 DR). Meanwhile, it's been said here on Candlekeep that Lathander was worshipped during the time of Athalantar (183-342 DR). Perhaps more solidly, the GHotR has a Paladin of Lathander slay Orlak the Night King of Westgate in -137 DR. So, it appears they have both been around at the same time.

I've also found people saying that both Amaunator and Lathander were present during the events of the Dawn Cataclysm, although I can't find a source for that either. That we don't have a date for, and it may have been occuring for centuries, though it had to occur sometime before the fall of Myth Drannor in 714 DR, which it presaged.

It seems to me from the above that they are separate deities. However, here's some more of interest:
quote:
Faiths and Avatars

Over the centuries, many theories have been put forward by later scholars as to what ultimate fate Amaunator met. Some believe he was either absorbed into or became Lathander, others that he turned bitter and became At'ar, and yet others assert that he turned his back on Faerun and entered the pantheon of the lands of Kara-Tur or simply moved on to other crystal spheres. The truth is that with the loss of nearly all his followers in Netheril after its fall, Amaunator began the long, arduous, and painful process of dying of neglect. After about a millennium, he did not have enough power left to maintain the Keep of the Eternal Sun on Mechanus and was ruthlessly exiled to the Astral Plane.

Bottom line: in 2e, Lathander and Amaunator are presented as different deities.

3rd Edition
Then, the links to Amaunator start appearing in the 3e era, with the Landerite sect known as the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun saying that Lathander is the living reincarnation of Amaunator - though it is noted that there is no proof except for the word of their priests. Lathander does not rebuke or confirm the beliefs of this sect, and makes it clear to his morninglords and sunmasters that he considers all that follow him to be his true believers (Lost Empires of Faerun).

Power of Faerun takes this further, saying that Lathander has three options to deal with the rise of this belief:
quote:
Power of Faerun

For example, if a sect emerges within the church of Lathander preaching that the Morninglord is Amaunator reborn, then Lathander has one of three options: He can embrace the new belief, thus making it true; he can effectively ignore the new belief, thus allowing diversity to persist within the faith and weaken the absoluteness of his authority; or he can reject the new belief as heresy, thus splitting the ranks of his followers and reducing his divine strength.

Thus, combining this information with that in Lost Empires, we can see that Lathander chose to ignore the new belief - weakening the absoluteness of his authority, and setting the stage for Amaunator to return.

Then, around 1373 DR, the Risen Sun Heresy comes out of the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun, led by Sunlord Daelegoth Orndeir. Other leaders of Lathander's faith consider excommunicating him, but they act too slowly. He gains more and more popularity throughout 1374, with a victory against Brennus Tanthul, the reclamation of the Shard of the Sun (a holy relic of Amaunator), and requests Amaunator protect the city from the effects of the melting High Ice. When perfect weather ensues, he is thought of as a miracle worker. He claims to have seen a vision of an eternal sun rising high above the land, heralding the rebirth of Amaunator. He then finally casts the Epic Spell he created called "Amaunator's Eternal Sun" above Elversult, and word quickly spreads across Faerun, and many seek to convert to the church of Amaunator.

The story then ends in 1374 with the "end" of 3e.

Bottom line: The "not-true" theory established in 2e that Amaunator and Lathander are the same is expanded into a full-on heresy that gains a lot of followers. It is unclear what 3e's perspective on the truth is and what isn't - Lathander is silent on the matter.

4th Edition
The next clues we have are in the 4e FRCG and the 4e Player's Guide, where we are told:
quote:
Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide]

Amaunator is the reincarnated deity of the sun, the timekeeper of the gods. Though some say he died, he actually transformed into Lathander, and was worshiped under that name for centuries before finally reclaiming both his name and his mission.

Forgotten Realms Player's Guide

In the years following the Spellplague, Lathander, the eternally young god of new beginnings and hope, transfigured into his ancient incarnation Amaunator. Although Amaunator dropped the youthful mask he had worn for centuries, his experiences as the Dawn Lord shook him from his ancient mindset. Amaunator is still a dignified god of immense age, but he remembers his youth, and he encourages his followers to do the same.

Amaunator is the god of the sun and time. His church teaches that he has died and been reborn time and again, like the turning of a great clock.

Dragon Magazine #378

Some deities take on multiple aspects, which can display conflicting attitudes and enhance the powers of one domain over another.
Amaunator spent long years in the guise of Lathander. People who want to focus on the optimistic concepts of dawn and vitality might consider the sun domain primarily a part of the Lathander aspect.


Bottom line: This edition presents what was a "heresy" before the Spellplague as truth. There is no mention of alternative viewpoints. However, I would argue that this has been done because this is what almost everyone in the game-world believes, rather that it being an objective truth.

D&D Next
The only real tidbit we get here is this, though it is an interesting one:
quote:
Although the prayers in this temple are addressed to the sun god Amaunator, the forms of worship continue longstanding traditions of the worship of Lathander, who is said to have transformed into Amaunator shortly before the Spellplague.

This unfortunately contradicts the GHoTR, which has Lathander active post-Spellplague:
quote:
1385 DR:
Many planes are shifted or destroyed as well. Only greater deities prove strong enough to maintain their realms against the resultant chaos. Tyr, Lathander, and Sune move against Cyric and successfully imprison the Black Sun in his Supreme Throne, under a sentence of house arrest to last one thousand years.

I'm inclined to go with GHoTR on this, especially considering Ghosts was only a playtest product that did not receive a wide release in gamestores for some time.

5th Edition
Lathander starts granting spells again, most notably in the Reaver (which I'm still to get to).
Amaunator and Lathander both exist (SCAG, confirmed in podcast).

Bottom line: if they can both exist at the same time, and both grant spells, surely they're different deities - as they've always been outside of the (successful) Risen Sun heresy.

My revised theory
Amaunator and Lathander are different deities. After Amaunator's fall, Lathander arrives in the Realms (or at the least becomes more active) and spreads his own faith, as Amaunator's faith slowly dies away. By the time of the fall of Myth Drannor, the Dawn Cataclysm has happened and Amaunator is merely a corpse on the Astral Plane. For a long time, perhaps since the very beginning of Lathander's faith, people have connected the two deities, and the Brotherhood of the Glorious Sun is the primary of these, saying that they are one and the same. In the 1370s, Daelegoth Orndeir takes this a step further and actively tries to return Amaunator to prominence over Lathander. Lathander does not act against his efforts, and faith in him wanes while faith in Amaunator rises - but, Lathander is confident (over-optimistic as always) that his faithful will win everything back.

Then the Spellplague happens. As in my earlier theory, the House of Nature is destroyed and Lathander is left without a domain. However, I'd add to my intial theory that Lathander's power had already been significantly drained by the Risen Sun Heresy over the past 11 years - and perhaps even further draining occured due to his involvement in the binding of Cyric. It is these events, along with his need to create a new planar home, that allows Amaunator to supercede him and usurp his role. As an alternative, perhaps Lathander draws on his faithful to create the new plane, including the Risen Sun followers, and finds that he needs to work with Amaunator to create the new plane - however, Amaunator takes advantage of the weakened, naive Lathander and usurps him.

This gets us to the 4e situation, where the Risen Sun "heresy" is the new truth - because their priests won. When Lathander disappeared and Amaunator reappeared only 11 years after Daelegoth's pronouncements, they had won the information war to such an extent that it is the predominant view in the setting books. Thus, most Lathanderites, their god silent, start praying to Amaunator.

Then in 5e Ao remakes the planes how he sees fit, and releases Lathander from Amaunator's grasp.

An aside:
Perhaps Lathander and Amaunator are different deities, but are also cut from the same cloth - some overgod-level sun ideal - and so that makes it easier for them to ride off each other's power. Lathander did come around relatively soon after Amaunator's faith began to fall (less than a couple of hundred years, if there was even a time gap), and Amaunator only reappeared after he was able to usurp Lathander. Perhaps in the new order, both can only have the power of lesser deities, rather than being greater deities if only one of them reigns supreme - giving some truth to the idea that they are related, but also separate.
Edit: Or maybe it's the simple fact that they're both sun-related, and folks like to pray to just one god of the sun - so they're always going to stepping on each others' toes, forever antagonists as the priests of the world try to get the world to have faith in only one sun god. Horus-Re would be another antagonist in this situation (and is mentioned as such in LEoF).

...and don't even get me started on the Three-Faced Sun heresy!

Edit 2: Was the "Deliverance" Lathander was telling his priests about back in 1371 (Faiths & Pantheons) him being "set free" (definition of deliverance) by the arrival of Amaunator? Or maybe foreseeing some release from mortal concerns? Controversial!

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 19 Apr 2017 13:25:31
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sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Apr 2017 :  13:24:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding this
"1385 DR:
Many planes are shifted or destroyed as well. Only greater deities prove strong enough to maintain their realms against the resultant chaos. Tyr, Lathander, and Sune move against Cyric and successfully imprison the Black Sun in his Supreme Throne, under a sentence of house arrest to last one thousand years."

We also know that Tyr "died" fairly soon after the spellplague, and presumably so did Lathander. This tells me that WHATEVER happened here happened quickly, and makes me also doubt this one particular statement as either happening as stated or happening at all. For instance, maybe it was actually Amaunator (who is both a god of law and the sun... so the replacement for both Tyr and Lathander) and Sune (if it was truly even Sune and Sune wasn't replaced and no one knew).

Personally, I'm going with the idea that most of these god's domains became "connected" to Abeir, and what we're going to find out is that they "regrew" connections to Toril and the "great wheel" during the sundering. As a result, those deities that "died" were transferred to Abeir temporarily in order to drum up faith (and as a result, Ao is "fixing" a mistake he made long ago.... there being no or few primordials left in Abeir to rule it and/or fight with the estellar/gods). Now, few truly "know" that they can go to these specific deities domains to then access Abeir, but in time it will become known. Meanwhile, those deities are gathering a bit of worship from both worlds.

Consequently, any lands that transferred BACK to Abeir (which I'm positing as the underchasm and a portion of Tymanther) have also had any deity's domains that they worshipped while on Toril grow links to Abeir. This won't be many, as I see it... I only think Torm, Bahamut, and Takhisis were truly strong amongst them, though they probably had more.

Why do this? Well, in essence, you CAN have Abeir become a land somewhat in turmoil. You can do the whole thing where the remaining Titans and Estellar/gods are at war. That's if you wanted to do something where you use both worlds. If you didn't want to use both worlds, it wouldn't really matter.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 19 Apr 2017 :  14:09:23  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that's a cool idea sleyvas, but my trouble with it is that at the time of the 4e setting, Abeir is described as godless.

Admittedly, what we know of Abeir is through what it was like before the Spellplague, we don't know what it's been like for the last hundred years - so maybe that would actually work. Even then it wouldn't work for Amaunator, who was specifically described as being a corpse in the Astral Sea pre-Spellplague, and then on Toril post-Spellplague. It might be a better fit for Lathander though - he could be in Abeir post-Spellplague, and then come to Toril in the Sundering.

I don't really see it, just because the whole "godless" thing is one of Abeir's few major differences from Toril. But, just as valid as any of my ideas!

EDIT:
And on the similarity to Pelor thing: the old face in the sun of that was Amaunator's symbol in 2e has obvious similarities to that of Pelor, but of more interest is the 5e symbol for Amaunator. In the SCAG, Amaunator's symbol is EXACTLY the 4e symbol for Pelor (six pointed star) on top of the 4e symbol for Amaunator (12 pointed star). Like, the design is exactly the same. No coincidence methinks.

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 19 Apr 2017 14:43:51
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Markustay
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Posted - 19 Apr 2017 :  17:13:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Aumanator/Pelor can easily BE a primordial, thus he's already covered by the 'godless' thing.

Sune's a bit trickier - can't see a primordial being a 'goddess of beauty' - that's very much a mortal conceit. We also know that for a time she was one-and-the-same as Hanali Celanil, and that she is more-than likely Venus/Aphrodite (Sune-V spelled backwards is Venus). And she could very well be a few others, like Freya (who happens to be a Vanir, which probably makes her Hanali Celanil regardless), and maybe Innana/Ishtar (she does seem a lot like Freya).

Not seeing her as Tlazolteotl - that sounds more like Baast, in her Sharess guise.

Thus, if she is a singular god, I would never peg her as a primordial, but she may be one of the more ancient deities (ascended mortals). I'm sorely tempted to peg Slevas' "New Sune" as Baast for that reason (and she wasn't human - she started out a 'Beast Lord', so she gets a pass on the whole Abeir thing), but aside from the whole sex/love thing, she really doesn't fit as someone who would care about imprisoning Cyric at all (unless it was to get back at Shar somehow, who did try to take her over as Sharess). 'Vindictiveness' does fit in with the whole cat thing.

Its a hard sell, Sleyvas. I think its more likely that the lore is CORRECT, and that those gods over-stepped their bounds, and THAT is why they were replaced (Torm for Tyr, Aumanator for Lathander, Hanali for Sune - I would think this was a 'suggestion from on-high', rather then something that was physically forced, perhaps removing themselves from Realmspace for the same duration they imprisoned Cyric... maybe even as his 'keepers').

HOWEVER, post-Sundering, everything's changed again, and if Cyric is back, perhaps the originals are back as well (so we get TWO sun gods, Tyr retakes his place in the pantheon, and Hanali gives her position back to Sune). That scenario could help 'fudge' some of the 4e "this god is really that god" nonsense. The whole thing about them being the same was just a lie spread by all the churches to cover the fact they were banished (Ao and 'the gods' don't really want mortals up in their business).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2017 01:24:02
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  00:36:10  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
An interesting point about the time of the imprisoning of Cyric, from the Crystal Mountain (which I have bought for a word search but haven't read yet):
quote:
“Tyr, Lathander — who has revealed his true form to be that of ancient Amaunator, incidentally — and Sune have imprisoned Cyric. His own plane has become his prison.” Eirwyn waved that bit of news away. “That was inevitable,” she said. “What else?” “The backlash from Mystra’s demise swept through the Astral Plane. Waves of raw magic crashed against many shores. No one knows the extent of the destruction yet, but it appears that several planes vanished, while others merged together.”

These are apparently the words of an archon of Mount Celestia, but I don't know the details. Main thing of interest is that it appears that it was Amaunator who took part in the binding of Cyric rather than Lathander.

I wonder if we'll ever get a more detailed explanation for everything that happened. Probably not, but it's a long life...

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 20 Apr 2017 00:43:33
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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  01:30:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By the time the Celestial 'reported in', yes, Amaunator could have come back (called back by Ao). The way its worded, it could still have just been plain-vanilla Lathander who imprisoned Cyric, and THEN Lathander was banished/forced to become Cyric's keeper/whatever, and Aumanator steps up and declares that he was Lathander all along.

I don't usually like any lore regarding Cyric, but the more I think on this new theory of mine, the more sense it makes - some gods were 'punished' (for whatever reason) and were forced to 'retire' for a time, and Ao brought in other gods to take their place. Everyone lied to save any trouble with their churches. This doesn't have to just be these three we are discussing now - we could even say a similar thing happened in the cases of Gruumsh/Talos, and Chauntea/Yondalla. These gods were just given (temporary) ownership of that name and those portfolios for the duration of 4e. It was never really them.

Its the best way to mend all the confusing lore that I can come up with.

I still want to know why the 4e designers thought to make Sune Firehair - a relatively minor goddess in terms of 'celestial politics' (or even mundane politics) - play such a big part in the events at the end of 3e. The whole thing between Tyr and Helm was kind of her fault as well. And now what happens to the whole Tyr/Tymora thing? No cross-pantheon love? (since Tyr is Norse, and Tymora is one half of Tyche, who is Greek... was it just the 'Ty' thing?)

Who'd she end up with? Or is she now snubbing both of them (Helm and Tyr) and she'll be next year's contestant on The Bachelorette?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2017 01:55:27
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ywhtptgtfo
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  01:37:44  Show Profile  Visit ywhtptgtfo's Homepage Send ywhtptgtfo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

Lathander appeared to his chosen and spoke to him. For all this deities being more distant and mortals having to interpret their will on their own talk, the Sundering novels were choke-full of deities appearing and talking to mortals. More than usual for the FR



Even post-Sundering novels have examples of deities directly manifesting on Toril, WotC simply doesn't care about consistency anymore.

In any case, I like this new development. I never liked "X is actually an aspect of Y", so I'm totally fine with this new change. Canon has already become a mess anyway.



I think FR died a slow death since 2E. 3E started out okay. Then 3.5's becoming a mess with Myth Drannor, Netheril, Imaskar back and all. Then 4E is an absolute disaster. I can't even motivate myself to follow what crap's coming in 5E anymore. I just know that the last Drizzt book series by RAS is crap and I hope there will be no more Drizzt
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sleyvas
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  01:58:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

I think that's a cool idea sleyvas, but my trouble with it is that at the time of the 4e setting, Abeir is described as godless.

Admittedly, what we know of Abeir is through what it was like before the Spellplague, we don't know what it's been like for the last hundred years - so maybe that would actually work. Even then it wouldn't work for Amaunator, who was specifically described as being a corpse in the Astral Sea pre-Spellplague, and then on Toril post-Spellplague. It might be a better fit for Lathander though - he could be in Abeir post-Spellplague, and then come to Toril in the Sundering.

I don't really see it, just because the whole "godless" thing is one of Abeir's few major differences from Toril. But, just as valid as any of my ideas!

EDIT:
And on the similarity to Pelor thing: the old face in the sun of that was Amaunator's symbol in 2e has obvious similarities to that of Pelor, but of more interest is the 5e symbol for Amaunator. In the SCAG, Amaunator's symbol is EXACTLY the 4e symbol for Pelor (six pointed star) on top of the 4e symbol for Amaunator (12 pointed star). Like, the design is exactly the same. No coincidence methinks.



I'm not saying Amaunator came from Abeir. I'm saying possibly Lathander and Tyr (and maybe even Helm too) all actually went over to Abeir. Amaunator came along from SOMEWHERE... that I'm not defining... and swooped in to take advantage of these portfolios.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  02:16:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

By the time the Celestial 'reported in', yes, Amaunator could have come back (called back by Ao). The way its worded, it could still have just been plain-vanilla Lathander who imprisoned Cyric, and THEN Lathander was banished/forced to become Cyric's keeper/whatever, and Aumanator steps up and declares that he was Lathander all along.

I don't usually like any lore regarding Cyric, but the more I think on this new theory of mine, the more sense it makes - some gods were 'punished' (for whatever reason) and were forced to 'retire' for a time, and Ao brought in other gods to take their place. Everyone lied to save any trouble with their churches. This doesn't have to just be these three we are discussing now - we could even say a similar thing happened in the cases of Gruumsh/Talos, and Chauntea/Yondalla. These gods were just given (temporary) ownership of that name and those portfolios for the duration of 4e. It was never really them.

Its the best way to mend all the confusing lore that I can come up with.

I still want to know why the 4e designers thought to make Sune Firehair - a relatively minor goddess in terms of 'celestial politics' (or even mundane politics) - play such a big part in the events at the end of 3e. The whole thing between Tyr and Helm was kind of her fault as well. And now what happens to the whole Tyr/Tymora thing? No cross-pantheon love? (since Tyr is Norse, and Tymora is one half of Tyche, who is Greek... was it just the 'Ty' thing?)

Who'd she end up with? Or is she now snubbing both of them (Helm and Tyr) and she'll be next year's contestant on The Bachelorette?



Without a doubt, on the gods lying while the other gods were gone. That's been the assumption I've been working towards for a while.

Oh, and since Tyr/Tymora never married, I'd go with... its not happening. Given the events of the sundering novels though, do we see some kind of Helm / Siamorphe thing happening (i.e. what happens with their Chosen being mirrored to the gods). I don't recommend it, but it all did start with Siamorphe leaving to Sune's house.

Just to throw out there too. Tyr and Helm... Tyr and Heimdall. Cyric convinces Blind Tyr to kill Helm. Loki convinces Blind Hoder to kill Balder. Cyric being imprisoned for a long time... Loki being imprisoned for his actions in killing Balder. Lathander and Sune / Frey and Freya.

Not saying an exact mirroring, just saying somewhat they've had the gods playing roles in Norse mythology leading up to the spellplague.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 20 Apr 2017 02:24:26
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Markustay
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  02:28:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And just to add one more interesting 'factoid' to the mix - when I went to Wiki to read up on Tyche, it turns out she's Aphrodite's (Venus) daughter, thus, Tymora is probably Sune's daughter (or half of her daughter...)

All that hubub because she was trying get her daugheter hitched to a nice feller.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 20 Apr 2017 02:30:22
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  02:55:22  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another interesting point on word-searching the Reaver for Amaunator and Lathander:
It doesn't seem like in the book either god directly claims to be the same as the other at any point. Randal, Sunlord of Amaunator, claims they are the same, and change between personas only over millennia, and quotes that as a reason Lathander cannot have returned after only a century. Meanwhile, Stedd of Lathander (only a child), also believes that they are the same, but the cycle isn't restricted to millennia. It's important to note that it says specifically that Stedd has never heard Lathander speak directly to him, and he only witnesses Lathander's avatar once - and that appearance doesn't reference Amauanator at all. So, I would say Stedd's belief in a Lathander-Amaunator-Lathander-etc cycle stems from his upbringing in a world of Amaunatori priests that emphasise the cycle. Meanwhile, the average folk (eg. Anton) just think Lathander is dead or disappeared, and don't display any particular belief in a cycle - and if they do, it's likely because of the influence of the priesthood of Amaunator.

So, the possibilities:
1. There is no cycle. Lathander and Amaunator are different deities.
2. The cycle is in a phase of change-over, and soon Amaunator will disappear. Although the cycle exists, they are different gods.
3. The cycle is in a phase of change-over, and soon Amaunator will disappear. The two gods are different personas of the same entity.
4. The cycle has changed over, and Amaunator has disappeared. In the SCAG era Lathander is answering prayers to him, just as Umberlee answers prayers to Panzuriel.

I find 3&4 unlikely, because Amaunator is just listed as a straight-up god in the SCAG. I find 2 unlikely because they are said to be different gods in Faiths and Avatars.

Whether or not some sort of cycle does exist isn't said outright in the novel, but by Faiths & Avatars and all the rest I would say that there is no cycle, it's just an Amaunatori story - so my vote goes with option 1.

However, the relationship between the two is still very mysterious. Sernett jokingly says on the podcast that Amaunator basically comes along and "beats up Lathander and takes his stuff", but the tone isn't serious enough to take as solid canon. My guess is still that they're different deities that both thrive on worship of the same thing (the sun), so they're in a tug-of-war type situation over divine power. At the current time, the tug-of-war is just pretty equal, so they both appear in the SCAG and can answer prayers.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'm not saying Amaunator came from Abeir. I'm saying possibly Lathander and Tyr (and maybe even Helm too) all actually went over to Abeir. Amaunator came along from SOMEWHERE... that I'm not defining... and swooped in to take advantage of these portfolios.

I like it as much as anything else. They have to be somewhere, right? I had been kind of assuming that they were either trapped by other deities or dead (or close to it) and floating on the Astral.

Edit: added in an option above, and had another thought:
The Shard of the Sun found by Daelegoth Orndeir back in 1374 is from Complete Divine, and in that book is identified as an artifact of Pelor. Too many coincidences for this to not be a thing, surely.

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Edited by - KanzenAU on 20 Apr 2017 03:12:54
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