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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 08:46:44
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Thought this might be of interest to people here, not sure if it's knowledge that has appeared elsewhere.
In the latest official D&D podcast, Matt Sernett clarified that Amaunator & Lathander are indeed different deities. Amaunator usurped his role during the post-Spellplague tumult, but in the Sundering Ao restored Lathander while allowing Amaunator to remain.
Edit: They were described as different deities in the SCAG, but the situation wasn't really clarified very well.
Another interesting point is that Sernett points to similarities in one of Amaunator's holy symbol depictions to the holy symbol of Pelor. Although it sounds like Sernett himself wasn't involved in any decision or discussion about a connection between the two, it's an interesting thesis that such a connection might exist.
More generally, he also talks about how Ao has made divine domains more loose than they were previously - hence we have different gods of death, the dead, etcetera.
The topic of the gods being more distant post-Sundering was also discussed, with gods being more likely to communicate with signs and omens (the altar glows and you hear the sound of twin axes scraping together) than talking directly to their clerics.
All in all, an interesting one. A warning to the faithful however: Sernett is openly a "how the sausage is made" sort of guy, and doesn't mind talking about the problems of changing editions in meta-speak rather than Realms-speak. Not necessarily a problem at all, I just have the feeling it won't be to everyone's taste.
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 14 Apr 2017 08:48:51
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 10:20:08
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| Thank Lurue. I've always disliked the idea that Lathander and Amaunator were different aspects of the same deity. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 13:18:26
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Which directly contradicts what was stated in "The Reaver" by Lathander himself to his chosen
Did they even talk to their authors? Did anyone proofread the last novels? |
Edited by - Mirtek on 14 Apr 2017 13:19:14 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 16:27:49
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Eh. Tis what it is! I'm still enjoying myself, sorry to hear others aren't.
I did a word-search in the Reaver for anywhere Lathander claims to be the same as Amaunator and couldn't find anything. Stedd seems to believe it, but my guess is that's being filtered through a century of the teachings of Amaunator's priests. He's just interpreting the signs/visions/feelings given to him by Lathander through the sieve of his own experience (he says at one point Lathander doesn't tell him things directly) - though I haven't read it yet and would love to see quotes that put forth a different view. I'll get there in a couple of months.
One of the points of emphasis in the podcast was that individuals in the world have to interpret the signs of the gods themselves now - the gods don't explain things in words (at least not as often or as widely), it's part of the "more distant" thing post-Sundering. Mortals have to figure things out for themselves, giving more power to individual prophets that claim to be able to interpret the will of the gods. Sometimes those prophets may be misguided.
I'm just interpreting all this through my own sieve though, so YMMV. I'm not a fan of how 4e merged gods, and this kind of explanation works better for me. I kind of like the idea that the Amaunator-Lathander rebirth thing was some bull sold to mortals by Amaunator's priests to buy up the disappeared Lathander's worshippers. After all, everyone thought it was a heresy back in 1374 - the trouble was that Lathander stopped answering prayers, so people started buying into it. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 17:11:30
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Eh. Tis what it is! I'm still enjoying myself, sorry to hear others aren't.
I did a word-search in the Reaver for anywhere Lathander claims to be the same as Amaunator and couldn't find anything. Stedd seems to believe it, but my guess is that's being filtered through a century of the teachings of Amaunator's priests. He's just interpreting the signs/visions/feelings given to him by Lathander through the sieve of his own experience (he says at one point Lathander doesn't tell him things directly) - though I haven't read it yet and would love to see quotes that put forth a different view. I'll get there in a couple of months.
One of the points of emphasis in the podcast was that individuals in the world have to interpret the signs of the gods themselves now - the gods don't explain things in words (at least not as often or as widely), it's part of the "more distant" thing post-Sundering. Mortals have to figure things out for themselves, giving more power to individual prophets that claim to be able to interpret the will of the gods. Sometimes those prophets may be misguided.
I'm just interpreting all this through my own sieve though, so YMMV. I'm not a fan of how 4e merged gods, and this kind of explanation works better for me. I kind of like the idea that the Amaunator-Lathander rebirth thing was some bull sold to mortals by Amaunator's priests to buy up the disappeared Lathander's worshippers. After all, everyone thought it was a heresy back in 1374 - the trouble was that Lathander stopped answering prayers, so people started buying into it.
There were suggestions about that one before 4E; I think it was originally suggested on the REALMS-L list.
It just occurred to me that maybe Lathander's silence was an involuntary thing -- perhaps, during the chaos of the Spellplague, he was wounded or captured. Even though I hate using Shar, since she's so overplayed, it seems like a fun idea that she was involved in sidelining Lathander and bringing back Amaunator. Sure, Amaunator would be an enemy of hers, as well, but he's older, thus more predictable, and his harsh nature could actually drive people away from law and light. Plus, Lathander was all about hope and new beginnings, and that's far more antithetical to Shar's portfolios than sunlight and law. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 19:15:53
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I've been thinking Aumanator was Pelor for some time now, and it makes some sense on a broader 'D&Dverse' level. It also now makes a lot of my Nentir Vale conversion material be more 'in tune' with canon.
As to what a novel says over what the 'guys in charge' say - I would fall back on what Ed has always said: "People LIE, priests lie A LOT, and Gods lie THE MOST".
We've even seen an example of a deity (Cyric) pretend to be another god to one of that god's worshipers (albeit a flighty one), which just shows that a deity will absolutely lie about the reality of the universe to maintain their agenda. In fact, i would go so far as to say that perhaps part of what the 'Dawn Cataclysm' did was make people forget Aumanator was a separate deity for a time, as Lathander's faithful pushed him as THE 'sun god'. If it wasn't for a handful of people who stilled worshiped him in one form or another (A'tar to the Bedine, for instance), Aumanator probably would have faded from The Realms altogether... which I am sure was Lathander's plan all along.
And when it comes to deities (and just about everyone else, for that matter), you can justify a LOT when it comes to your portfolio (or agenda), even if your actions appear 'evil' to others. I'm pretty sure gods don't even really care about 'good' or 'evil' - thats just a product they sell us, like everything else.
Anyway, thanks for sharing this.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2017 19:16:50 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 22:50:11
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Lathander appeared to his chosen and spoke to him. For all this deities being more distant and mortals having to interpret their will on their own talk, the Sundering novels were choke-full of deities appearing and talking to mortals. More than usual for the FR
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2017 : 23:43:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Lathander appeared to his chosen and spoke to him. For all this deities being more distant and mortals having to interpret their will on their own talk, the Sundering novels were choke-full of deities appearing and talking to mortals. More than usual for the FR
Even post-Sundering novels have examples of deities directly manifesting on Toril, WotC simply doesn't care about consistency anymore.
In any case, I like this new development. I never liked "X is actually an aspect of Y", so I'm totally fine with this new change. Canon has already become a mess anyway. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 Apr 2017 23:44:21 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 00:22:46
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I'm not sure they've ever said deities can't manifest on Toril, or talk directly to their worshippers if they really want to. It appears to me that that sort of activity has just become a bigger deal post-Sundering. My guess is that Ao has made it so interfering directly in the world uses up more of a god's power than it used to, so they're less likely to do it.
That would make sense, assuming that the "being more distant" thing started after the Sundering, because deities were extremely active during it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 00:40:50
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Don't forget either that Ed has said Ao's reordering of things at the end of the Sundering finished in Flamerule 1489. Death Masks is in 1491, and the gods are definitely more distant in that one. Notably, Spellstorm is set before the changes, as is RAS's latest trilogy. The only other potentially post-Sundering books that come to mind are in the Brimstone Angels series, which I haven't finished yet.
Even taking all we know is that the gods are "more distant", I think even if gods do appear on Toril that's not necessarily inconsistent with anything previously said. We just don't know the details. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 15 Apr 2017 00:46:58 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 02:08:03
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| Yeah, being more distant doesn't necessarily preclude more direct manifestations or forms of communications. Even in Death Masks, some deities were much more direct than most of the others. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 03:18:36
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As far as I can tell, deities ALWAYS 'had a hand' in The Realms, they were just much more subtle about it (I mean, like when they were just "Ed's Realms").
Now, we know in a meta-gaming fashion the reason for them becoming 'more active' (less subtle, actually) was TSR buying the Realms and having the ToT right away, which set a VERY bad precedent. Since then, gods have become more like Manshoons - you can't walk ten feet without tripping over one. Errr... I mean ruins. (LOL)
But instead of blaming the RW reason, we can blame that story event that actually caused this snowballing of godly interference - the ToT itself. Ao screwed up, thats all there is to it (and the fact that he had to 'reset' everything proves it). When the Tablets of Fate were stolen he handled it poorly, and sent the gods to Toril, something they didn't really do much of, at least not 'in person'. He changed the rules for them - instead of being punished somehow for 'meddling' directly too much, they were given free reign to stomp all over the place, willy-nilly (YES, much de-powered, but still, it doesn't appear he put any restrictions on them otherwise, which is probably more freedom than they've ever had before).
Now, post-ToT he lets them all re-ascend (most of them, anyway), but for whatever reason the rules didn't go back to how they were before. Or maybe the gods just got used to stomping around Toril, and Ao no longer cared enough to put a cap on their behavior. Maybe he thought it would 'all work-out in the wash', so to speak. That they'd get bored with direct meddling and go back to their old ways on their own. Who knows. Obviously it was a bad idea - like a parent who doesn't punish their children or try to modify their kid's behavior, Ao wound up with a 'pack of spoiled brats'.
So now we fast-forward a century to the Sundering, and Ao resets the geography of the world, and brings back whatever gods have been lost since the ToT. He tells them all, "listen, since some of you haven't been around, and the rules have changed quite a bit for everyone, I'll cut you some slack and you can 'go forth' and let your followers know whats-what. Buuuuuut... you have a limited time to do so. Within a year or so from now I want to see less 'direct interference'... a LOT less."
And thats how it stands. As we can see, some gods have 'dialed it back', which is good, but some others might need a 'knock upside their heads' soon from Ao, because they are still behaving in the post-ToT fashion of waltzing all over Toril in person, and thats just not going to fly. He may also be giving some more leeway than others in this regard - the ones affected the most (like all the ones that got 'brought back') he might be turning a blind eye to... for now. Sooner or later, though, he's going to have to put his foot down for all of them, and then, HOPEFULLY, we will see The Forgotten Realms 'normalize' as it should be.
How did RAS handle the Sundering? I haven't personally read any 4e-5e novels. For the most part, I like how he handled the pre-transition in The Ghost King. There were parts of the story I didn't care for, but the interaction between Cadderly and Deneir - or rather, the lack of interaction - I felt was handled well. Cadderly had to mostly guess about his god's intentions, which is how I felt it should be. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Apr 2017 03:25:59 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 05:51:17
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The Companions was technically one of the Sundering hexology, but the actual Sundering was very much only a backdrop. The book makes reference to a couple of Netherese sensing something coming, and believing that Chosen will be important, but that's about it - oh, and Cattie-Brie is thought to be a Chosen of Mielikki, and there's some pondering if Drizzt is too.
I haven't read his next trilogy about the war with the orcs yet, but I've flipped through it and I doubt the Sundering is mentioned much. It's set from 1484-86 from memory though, so right bang in the middle of where the Sundering is happening, so I feel like events within it should be interpreted in a Sundering-conscious light.
The latest trilogy is still within the Sundering period (of the top of my head it ends in 1488), and talks a bit more about the possibility of Drizzt being a Chosen of Lolth. Said deity even makes an appearance. However, the Sundering itself is not a centrepiece, and it may not have been even mentioned.
All in all I see the post-Companions RAS stories as being one of many important stories taking place during the Sundering, with Chosen leading armies against each other. Whether they're aware of it or not, I see Bruenor as potentially a Chosen of Moradin and Hartusk as potentially a Chosen of Gruumsh. We know that 100s of Chosen were wreaking havoc during the Sundering, though they weren't necessarily imbued with lots of power like the Chosen of yesteryear. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 15 Apr 2017 06:09:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 06:40:50
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Ummmmmmm... thank you?
Armies of Chosen? Thats even worse then Harper-Troopers! 
Yeaaaaaaah... lets just stick to gaming materials from now on. Glad I avoid the heck out of all that. 
(seriously, ALL of RAS's characters are turning out to be 'Chosen'? WTH, man! That goes about fifty bazillon miles past 'BAD' in every conceivable way. I am so done with FR novels, pretty much forever after hearing that). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Apr 2017 06:44:35 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 06:46:05
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The "100s of Chosen" bit is direct from Ed on a podcast, and it's a Toril-wide figure. The books I've read so far have just said "lots". And I don't think there were any armies of Chosen, but rather armies in different parts of the world who are sometimes led by Chosen (possibly even being picked as Chosen after they become important), who may or may not have even been aware of their wider role in the Sundering.
Edit: And as I mentioned above, "Chosen" isn't quite as significant in the Sundering era as it was previously, and after about 1487 the gods start withdrawing their power from their Chosen, and they've fully backed off by Flamerule 1489.
Edit 2: None of RAS's characters were confirmed as Chosen IIRC. Cattie-Brie was the closest, Drizzt was more doing his own thing but Lolth desired him as one of her own, and the Bruenor/Hartusk thing is just a theory of mine. It's very much a "no one on the ground knows what the gods are truly planning" kind of situation.
Edit 3: It makes sense to me though. We're supposed to have these "Chosen" everywhere fighting wars, and one of the few wars we know of is fought in the Silver Marches. It just so happens that Bruenor is a big godammn deal in the North (former King of Mithral Hall (twice), reborn as a prominent dwarf in Citadel Felbarr, leads all the armies of the dwarves to Gauntlgrym, retakes that city, becomes its King, seemingly has designs on a new Delzoun), and I think it makes sense that he was one of these Chosen, even if he didn't know it. The Sundering Chosen generally didn't get any superpowers after all, as the gods were concerned with a lot happening in a few short years. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 15 Apr 2017 07:09:46 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 12:19:23
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I don't see the Sundering as being worse than the Time of Troubles. In any case, it's over, and they're back to being distant and unknowable.
The Sundering could never please everybody unfortunately, we're back to a 1e era style world but as always the transition is messy and there's a tonne of missing history. I get the impression most people that hate it had already given up at the Spellplague, or the return of Shade, or the ToT - I don't personally see the Sundering as that bad, in the scheme of things. As always, YMMV. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 13:28:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've been thinking Aumanator was Pelor for some time now, and it makes some sense on a broader 'D&Dverse' level. It also now makes a lot of my Nentir Vale conversion material be more 'in tune' with canon.
Pelor is Neutral Good and Amaunator is Lawful Neutral. They're sun gods, but Amaunator is a bureaucratic power, while Pelor is a deity of healing and strength. They're literally nothing alike. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 15:15:49
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People alwaya say that, and I think it has merit with Ed as a worldbuilder. But as an author, Ed's version of Mystra is a super meddlesome deity. In Ed's novels, we see Mystra speak directly with Elminster and the Seven Sisters (and even Manshoon), giving them explicit instructions on multiple occasions. We also see Shar communicating directly with Telamont (and Shar actually being completely outwitted by Larloch). So gods aren't really distant and unknowable in his novels.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Im gonna have to go into rant mode.
Reading these events nearly turned me off FR altogether, nevermind just the novels.
I realise now why i dislike the new Forgotten Realms. Its because it has departed so much from Eds original vision that the two settings are not even slightly related.
Yes Eds realms had gods and chosen in it, but they were just a very distant and unknowable background. The setting was about the people and a simulated real world.
This horrible, boring monstrosity is just a quasi rip off of the marvel universe set in a medieval fantasy world. But its even worse than that as its not about the super heroes anymore its about 2 dimensional deities and their lusts.
For years Ed was pestered by people about what did this god say and what would this god do (checj his threads out). For years Ed was telling people politely thatvits not about the gods, the gods are distant and unknowable, its about the people. Nobody listened and now FR is in this truly awful state. I wouldnt be surprised if this was a contributing factor to why Ed left to make stormtalons (i dont see any god nonsense in that setting).
Im just stating my opinion here. I dont think i can read this tripe for much longer. Thankfully im gonna rewrite the realms just for me (and there wont be a single god doing or saying anything to amyone).
Rant over.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 15:19:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ummmmmmm... thank you?
Armies of Chosen? Thats even worse then Harper-Troopers!
Yeaaaaaaah... lets just stick to gaming materials from now on. Glad I avoid the heck out of all that.
(seriously, ALL of RAS's characters are turning out to be 'Chosen'? WTH, man! That goes about fifty bazillon miles past 'BAD' in every conceivable way. I am so done with FR novels, pretty much forever after hearing that).
I didn't read all of the Sundering books, but yeah, there were lots of Chosen in them -- enough that the Shades were rounding them up and keeping them in multiple compounds. (Apparently, the Shades developed a detect Chosen spell  )
But most of those Chosen demonstrated absolutely nothing in terms of extra power, or if they did, it was something really, really minimal -- like one who left a trail of flowers wherever they walked.
I hated the concept, and it's further proof of something I've said for a while: it would be a damn sight better if some term other than "Chosen" was used. Because the first (and in my opinion, true) Chosen we ever saw were Mystra's Chosen, and those folks are powerhouses. Since then, Chosen in the Realms have become a copper a dozen, and most of them don't seem to have anything going for them other than a nifty title. It also seems unlikely to me that every single deity would be fine using the same term to describe their particular champions. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 15:29:20
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I don't see the Sundering as being worse than the Time of Troubles. In any case, it's over, and they're back to being distant and unknowable.
The Sundering could never please everybody unfortunately, we're back to a 1e era style world but as always the transition is messy and there's a tonne of missing history. I get the impression most people that hate it had already given up at the Spellplague, or the return of Shade, or the ToT - I don't personally see the Sundering as that bad, in the scheme of things. As always, YMMV.
No, the Sundering is not that bad in the grand scheme of things. At least it added and brought back, rather than removing, and removing and removing, like the Spellplague and the end of 3e did. FR canon was already a mess when it came to all events being kewl explosions, so at that point not much was to be lost IMO. I would have actually enjoyed it if the Sundering hadn't involved so much handwaving of stuff as Ao's will, and if the focus had been better distrivuted, rather than having some characters or events getting the spotlight, and other important events getting "oh yes, and this happened as well". |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Apr 2017 15:34:50 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 15:32:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
People alwaya say that, and I think it has merit with Ed as a worldbuilder. But as an author, Ed's version of Mystra is a super meddlesome deity. In Ed's novels, we see Mystra speak directly with Elminster and the Seven Sisters (and even Manshoon), giving them explicit instructions on multiple occasions. We also see Shar communicating directly with Telamont (and Shar actually being completely outwitted by Larloch). So gods aren't really distant and unknowable in his novels.
IIRC, some deities even interacted directly with Ed's players in his home campaign. And I don't see why that would be a bad thing. This is fantasy, using a deity in a not so subtle way here and there could make for a cool and flavorful scene, or story, or game. Things started going south when WotC/TSR started treating the gods like drama queens and putting them everywhere and offing them like flies, only to resurrect them later. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Apr 2017 15:33:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 16:02:43
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I have to admit, I do like the Sundering a whole lot better than the ToT (probably because I avoided the books and just use it as an excuse to do whatever the heck I want). The only thing I absolutely HATE is the name - we already had an event 35K+ years ago with that name, and now I have to type silly crap like 'Sundering 2.0' to keep it all straight. You would think guys who write for a living could come up with new terminology, instead of confusing the heck out of everything (and YES, that goes for 'Chosen' as well).
As for Ed and how he presents gods in novels, as opposed to how he says they should be - good point. With the Sundering, though, there is a reason, albeit a terrible one - WotC agenda. The writers get told what MUST be in the books, and because of the Sundering, they had to put them all in there, in a VERY heavy-handed fashion "Here, here's a shovel. See that huge pile of gods over there? Just start shovelin' them into your book. Don't worry if they're dead, or from some other setting. In fact, feel free to come up with a few hundred new ones. Avoid talking abut 'normies' at all costs - everyone should have a super-power, otherwise they're just boring") Ayup, that precisely how I see that mandate coming down. 
The writers are not completely without their own guilt - the setting has become one of those 'one-upmanship' shared worlds, where if one writer has a chosen, another has to create a super-chosen, and the next creates an Uber-super Chosen, and the next an ultra, Uber, super-Chosen, and so on, ad infinitum. Its like Dragonball, or any of a dozen other crappy anime's. Or worse, Power Rangers (I wonder if they work with Harper-Troopers?)
Which is the whole reason we now have a MAJOR disconnect between the novel line and the game - they are like two different Forgotten Realms. If the novels are canon, their ads should read, "Come to the Forgotten Realms, where the only characters that don't matter are YOURS!" 
Not really a great selling-point for an RPG.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
For years Ed was pestered by people about what did this god say and what would this god do (checj his threads out). For years Ed was telling people politely thatvits not about the gods, the gods are distant and unknowable, its about the people. Nobody listened and now FR is in this truly awful state. I wouldnt be surprised if this was a contributing factor to why Ed left to make stormtalons (i dont see any god nonsense in that setting).
Agree 100% with that first part. However, Ed has NOT "left the Realms". He is, unfortunately, busy with other commitments (commitments I would hesitate to guess he may be regretting, now with the DM's Guild doing what its doing). Its a damn shame, because we are finally in the position we've always dreamed of - Ed being able to 'do his own thing' in regards to the Realms (and we'd be buying it all up like crazy) - and he has now tied his own hands, time-wise. Sad, really. We could be in a new 'Golden Age' if he hadn't felt compelled to create a new playground. As for Stormtalons NOT having gods... it does. In fact, I created 'more ancient' versions of two of them for my own writing (which I guess no longer exist, since I won't be doing that writing LOL). There are six 'featured' ones thus far, and by that, ones we know about at the outset (three rising powers, three 'fading'). However, they aren't walking around the world, swinging their... staffs... all willy-nilly causing a ruckus. In fact, lots of people don't even bother with them. Buuuuuuut... one of the two 'major players' in the setting is a 'holy Empire' dedicated to one of the rising powers. Its very much 'in your face' (but NOT the deity itself - just its religion, which is run by mortals, as it should be). I just wanted to clarify all that.
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Originally posted by LordofBones
Pelor is Neutral Good and Amaunator is Lawful Neutral. They're sun gods, but Amaunator is a bureaucratic power, while Pelor is a deity of healing and strength. They're literally nothing alike.
The way a deity presents itself in one setting could be very different to how it presents itself in another. First off, they usually have to have differing portfolios, because the stuff they have in one world might already be taken by another god.
I know Michael Moorcock's universe isn't D&D (even though we've had official write-ups for some of his stuff in the 1e DD manual), but the way he handles things is a lot like how D&D (and Ed) handles these sorts of things: In one scene, Elric of Melnibonea is in an alternate dimension, and he calls upon his god. When Arioch shows up, he looks and acts different than he normally does. He's still Arioch, but not quite the same, and he is aware of who Elric is despite it being a different reality. The funny thing is, it was almost as if the god was unaware of all this. The rules of each world apply more to a god than it does to a mortal (the whole thing about 'dogma').
So thats how I picture it working out. Are they a perfect fit? No, but neither are a LOT of other things that have happened in D&D over the years, and we DO have instances of deities having different alignments in different Crystal Spheres (Tiamat jumps to mind). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Apr 2017 18:12:11 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 17:24:11
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Admittedly I've only finished 3/6 of the Sundering novels to date, but I really don't think there's too much overpowered Chosen business going around. RAS's gang is just RAS's gang, powerful but believable; Kemp's players have good reasons to bit a bit OP at times, and the Herald is just classic Ed. Still reading the other 3.
Personally, I probably would have preferred a grander explanation with an explanatory series of novels like the Avatar trilogy was. However, they went with a "ground-view" approach, and I respect that. I've enjoyed the three novels of the Sundering I've read so far, and I gain a slightly clearer picture with each one. I think it was a better approach than an "Avatar"-style approach, considering the post-Sundering world is supposed to be less god-focused.
PS, the whole point of the Sundering was to leave us with a less god-focused, more mortal-focused world. I feel like almost all of us in this thread want that. The Sundering wasn't perfect, but it got us there. We can't undo the time-jump now (in canon), so it's a choice to live in the past or embrace the future - sounds loaded, but I truly believe both are viable and valid options. Viva la Realms, 1374 or 1491! /stopsdrinkingandgoestobed |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 15 Apr 2017 17:31:25 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 18:23:09
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| I think that a confirmation that Amaunator and Lathander are separate deities and that Lathander is clearly a liar even to his so-called "Chosen" and that Amaunator=Pelor is actually great! It validates the premises I've been operating in my home campaigns... I am starting to think that Lathander, Tyr, and Sune may have been "infected" by Cyric when they imprisoned him. I'm also thinking that the divine heresies that have arisen are ways for Cyric to siphon divine power from "infected" faiths. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2017 : 18:29:56
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Eds vision wasnt a playground filled with gods and their daily ablutions. It was about the local smith who was in the pay of a local zhent agent (but didnt know it) and who had an addiction to a strange drug that made him highly suggestible. It was about the festhalls run by a pair of yuan ti abominations. It was about an abandoned hold that was once home to a former lord who was buried inside the walls and returned as a ghost, and a local bandit who exploited this legend without knowing it was real and became possessed by him.
At no point was it about what Shar wanted for breakfast that day and who she was secretly controlling and making do bad things while Malar marauded the countryside looking for victims because he was bored.
One type of setting is interesting and engaging because it is almost realistic in its complexity and secrets. While the other type is a dull parody filled with yawn inducing revelations and events or secrets that make people angry more often than excited. Its cheap storytelling and it shows.
Sure, I agree with you there. However the fact that deities can at times manifest or interact with people in a more direct and spectacular way can add flavor instead of taking it away. It's part of the cool (from an in-world PoV) events that make people go "wow" in a fantasy world. In the 2e deity books there are some deities who have manifestations in which they appear in a not so subtle form to celebrate with their followers (or things like that), alongside the (many more) subtle manifestations.
Things start to get cheap when gods play a heavy role in shaping most of the main events in the world, or when they start acting like drama queens or super powerful humans. At that point, their charm and mystery gets taken away. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Apr 2017 18:31:34 |
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