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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5124 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  14:22:17  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hey,

There was some recent thread I recall someone making a quote. It was something like there was some being "not quite a primordial and not quite a god" who stood between the realms and the "Far Realm". Or at least I thought that what they had quoted. Can anyone recall what that source and exact quote were? At the time, I recall thinking to myself that between this world and the far realm it would make sense if you had to pass through "the world of nightmares", and that got me to thinking about Dendar the Night Serpent. Then I just finished reading Aulddragon's spin on Io, and that reminded me of Faluzure, the night dragon. I was wanting to kind of compare Dendar and Faluzure... maybe the two merged or separated at some point. I know also that supposedly Null stands in place for Faluzure in the realms. Still, I figured it would be worth seeing the source of that quote and see if there's anything else to it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29710 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  15:40:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

The Far Realm exists beyond the known universe, and the Living Gate, guarded by a being neither god nor primordial but kin to both, is a sleeping connection to it (4e DMG p161, PHB3 p4).



It's from page 7 of the "Cosmology Theories" discussion.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5124 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  17:10:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
YES! Thank you Wooly. It was the excellent post by KanzenAU with all the quotes.

The Far Realm exists beyond the known universe, and the Living Gate, guarded by a being neither god nor primordial but kin to both, is a sleeping connection to it (4e DMG p161, PHB3 p4).



Now, just for fun, lets compare what quotes we can find for Dendar the Night Serpent and Faluzure, the Night Dragon.

From Monster Mythology page 98
Faluzure, the Night Dragon, is in some ways the most dangerous and sinister of Io's great broods. Gravely beautiful in his perfect black and deep-blue scales, the handsome dragon of shadows and illusion is a brilliant, gifted master of disguise who keeps his own counsels and has not the recklessness of Tiamat. Faluzure has a complex magical metabolism, for his own beauty and perfection require a constant stream of death for their sustenance while the shells of the creatures he slays become the undead creatures the dragon has for an entourage. Much more than any other dragon god, Faluzure has become intimately involved in the affairs of other races-providing they have lives
and souls to steal for his own sustenance.

Faluzure is an evolving evil, one developing more powers related to undeath (energy draining, rotting disease, and the like), one whose life force is entirely dependent on the death of others.There are many stories told by sages of the interrelating of the life forces and strength of gods and mortals, but nothing as dreadful as Faluzure's leeching of worlds and souls. Io gave birth to a truly terrifying beauty in the sleek and ever-smiling Night
Dragon.

From Monster Mythology

The terrifying Night Dragon picks at the wasteland of bones scattered about his burrow in Tarterus, his mindless juju zombie servants slaying any creature foolish enough to approach. Faluzure is a wretched, creeping thing no longer able to fly, but he has a terrible beauty nonetheless.


So, based on this information, there's at least some semblance between the two. Both are creatures from the dawn of time. Dendar feasts on the nightmares of everyone, so having it as the sleeping connection that separates us from the far realms fits. It also fits with the reference in powers and pantheons that Calishites think that Dendar is the "mother" of the night parade. The idea that the Rus see Dendar as Nidhogg, "the serpent who gnaws on the roots of Yggdrasil/the world tree" also fits with the idea of Dendar having some link to Faluzure (Nidhogg being bound in the realm of the dead).

Of course, having multiple dragon beings that have grown fat eating souls and/or nightmares wouldn't be unusual... and technically Dendar is a serpent not necessarily a dragon. I think I'm definitely leaning though towards Dendar being the tie that holds back the Far Realms.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  17:50:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would argue that Dendar does not represent a sleeping connection to anything, though. Not only have we seen her awake in the fiction, we have this line, from page 188 of Powers & Pantheons:

quote:
Anyone who approaches her cave finds her awake and awaiting them with anticipatory delight as she savors and relives their worst unremembered nightmares.


I would also say that something keeping the Far Realm closed off is bigger than Dendar or any of the other Elder Evils of the Realms -- after all, the Elder Evils have been commanded by the gods, and wounded or bound by mortals, at various intervals. That seems like a weak guardian for all of reality.

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  17:59:33  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As always im going against canon here but what if the stories about Dendar have been confused with Falazure because of the similarities.

What if Dendar is 'just' a mahoosive snake lairing in a cave with a huge door in it. Then because humans know some bits of mythology from dragons and other places, they confused the myth of Falazure with this hooge snake and concocted a tale about Dendar serving the gods and guarding against the end of the world or sumsuch mcguffin.

Just a thought. Preparing to be shot down now by the quote hammer.

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sleyvas
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USA
5124 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  20:59:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I would argue that Dendar does not represent a sleeping connection to anything, though. Not only have we seen her awake in the fiction, we have this line, from page 188 of Powers & Pantheons:

quote:
Anyone who approaches her cave finds her awake and awaiting them with anticipatory delight as she savors and relives their worst unremembered nightmares.


I would also say that something keeping the Far Realm closed off is bigger than Dendar or any of the other Elder Evils of the Realms -- after all, the Elder Evils have been commanded by the gods, and wounded or bound by mortals, at various intervals. That seems like a weak guardian for all of reality.




Wasn't thinking sleeping as in Dendar is asleep.... more that Dendar is a "sleeping connection"... as in Dendar somehow controls access to the far realm via controlling nightmares. Maybe that in order to get through to the Far Realm, you must travel through a realm of nightmares where reality is warped not by conscious belief, but maybe subconscious fears... maybe some other word to go with subconscious....

It does kind of fit, and its a better connection in my book than the Far Realm is somehow on the other side of Limbo. It makes the Far Realm not connected to the outer & inner planes necessarily at all.

Oh, and along these lines, Dendar may not be the ONLY such being. He might just be one such "pathway", in particular the one local to the realms.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Apr 2017 21:01:34
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
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Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  21:38:21  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Isn't the Plane of Dreams (and therefore, nightmares) a different plane to the Far Realm? Or I'm confused with stuff from Eberron...?

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Apr 2017 21:39:04
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5124 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  22:42:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Isn't the Plane of Dreams (and therefore, nightmares) a different plane to the Far Realm? Or I'm confused with stuff from Eberron...?



Don't know, and I know that Eberron explored the nightmare link more than anyone else. They actually had "fiends" from the realm of nightmares. However, perhaps it is "transitive" to both (i.e. traverse dreams/nightmares to get to the Far Realm).

This would be a little different than the outer planes that are based on the conscious belief of the conscious mind. Maybe I should explore some Eberron lore...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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KanzenAU
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Australia
545 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  22:47:02  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The guardian of the living gate was slain by Tharizdun. This is from the same thread:
quote:

Tharizdun returns to the Living Gate and slays its guardian. The Living Gate opens, and the Far Realm subsequently breaks into the cosmos. The dominions of several deities are consumed, forcing the gods' attention away from the Dawn War to defend their homes. Ioun and Pelor manage to destroy the gate, sealing the passage to the Far Realm, but it comes at the cost of Pelor's dominion (PHB3 p4) (homebrew: this dominion is Pelor's part of Hestavar rather than a lone domain). Pelor takes the largest fragments of the gate and preserves it in secret in his dominion on Hestavar to prevent others from rebuilding it, which he believes would be a mistake (TPA p63). Psionic power is believed to date back to these events, and either derive from the Far Realm or the universe's response to the intrusion of that realm (PHB3 p5).

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5124 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2017 :  23:01:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

The guardian of the living gate was slain by Tharizdun. This is from the same thread:
quote:

Tharizdun returns to the Living Gate and slays its guardian. The Living Gate opens, and the Far Realm subsequently breaks into the cosmos. The dominions of several deities are consumed, forcing the gods' attention away from the Dawn War to defend their homes. Ioun and Pelor manage to destroy the gate, sealing the passage to the Far Realm, but it comes at the cost of Pelor's dominion (PHB3 p4) (homebrew: this dominion is Pelor's part of Hestavar rather than a lone domain). Pelor takes the largest fragments of the gate and preserves it in secret in his dominion on Hestavar to prevent others from rebuilding it, which he believes would be a mistake (TPA p63). Psionic power is believed to date back to these events, and either derive from the Far Realm or the universe's response to the intrusion of that realm (PHB3 p5).




Well that throws a monkey wrench in that whole concept then. Oh well.

Still, kind of interesting that psionics always seems to link to nightmares and the creatures in the far realm.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

401 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2017 :  15:18:15  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Night Dragon has no real connection to Dendar. They're certainly nothing alike, and there's nothing that ties them. One is a nightmarish snake thing that lives in the Waste, while the other is a god of undeath that lives in Minethys, Carceri. He has no tie to Nidhogg either, as while the Rus certainly did believe that Dendar gnaws at the world tree, its roots are no where near Falazure's realm, or even Dendar's - the roots extend to Niflheim.

Auril has a closer tie to the World Tree, as some roots touch Winter's Hall. Unsurprising, as she shares the realm with Loki.

Dendar doesn't fit with the far realm, either. There's already a deity who has that connection - Piscaethces.

I find the Far Realm thing a bit strange though; the Far Realm wants nothing to do with reality, and reality wants nothing to do with the Far Realm. I can't imagine Piscaethces happy with her current situation.
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