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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
649 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2017 :  09:03:37  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is the map key up for sharing here by any chance?

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2017 :  15:39:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Krash, believe me, I will be getting back to that - its one of the first two maps in my new series, which has been put on a back-burner for the past three months.

There are so many interesting locales in the Forgotten Realms, I can't stay in one place!

This is something I never meant to do - I thought I was done with Daggerford. But there are so many interesting things about it, and also a few nagging inconsistencies/logic problems that I was never quite happy with. Another i Just realized was the ruins of Morlin castle - I was wondering why they were placed a ways away from the current castle on that map (when lore says otherwise), and then I recalled the discussion Erik and I had about it - I pointed out the fact that no-one in (RW) history EVER built a castle on the side of a hill - it makes no sense logistically; you always build your fortifications at the TOP, so you can gain the high-ground advantage. Why would someone build a castle below the highest point, where the enemy could take advantage of that factor, and rain arrows down into you keep? So we re-interpreted "at the site of..." to mean 'nearby'. Of course that doesn't really fix the problem with the new keep, but at least the original one made sense (perhaps Tyndal wasn't nearly as bright as he was good with a dagger).

I'm not gonna go nuts with this - I just have some tweaking to do on it, and then I want to put the final polish on the Nentir conversion map, and then its back to the rest of Faerûn (starting with Cormyr and Impiltur, which haven't really been covered by any of the new maps and material).

quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU

Is the map key up for sharing here by any chance?
I'll see what we can do. The key was created in such a way as to allow as much of the two different sets of canon lore to mesh (YES, we had two different map keys for the town of Daggerford IN CANON, which is one of the things Erik worked the hardest on to correct... then again, he works 'the hardest' on EVRYTHING lol). Thus, the key to that map isn't mine, nor is it canon - its a third, 'amalgam' type of thing, with TONS of thought put into it (because a LOT didn't make any sense ... like a shipyard sitting in the middle of town... with no way to actually get boats in or out...)

So maybe I can post a list with just the names of the places, and you guys can buy... maybe... Erik's product someday... if he has the time or wherewithal to update it to 5e (as I am doing here).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2017 21:42:44
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2017 :  18:06:31  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From Volarra's Guide to the Shining Vale*
The pinkish granite for the Tyndal bridge (the 2nd Tyndal Bridge, actually; the original was built AT the ford, but only lasted maybe two decades - it was washed-away during the flooding that occurred when the Shades were melting the High Ice) was purchased and shipped downstream from Secomber (see VGttSC). The new(er) bridge was built at the site of an even more ancient bridge that had been built by the dwarves of Dardath, and the Rocleaver Engineering Co. (Rockcleaver Clan) out of Mirabar was contracted by the Lords of Waterdeep to build a new one, that would once-again allow sea-going trade for Daggerford.

As part of that project, the river was dredged up to about halfway across the shore of Daggerford, and a tiny artificial islet was created using the access material. A tower 50' tall and 10' round was built upon that isle with a warning beacon on the top called The Demon Light, because the builders fashioned it to look like a huge gargoyle that sits atop the tower with its eyes aglow. An enchantment was placed on it that causes the eyes glow bright green when the river is at its deepest, when the waters cover the 20' mark of the floodplain, and turn orange when the the waters are low - too low for most larger vessels to proceed any further upriver. They occasionally glow bright red as well, during exceptionally dry seasons, when the river is abnormally low and even river-craft need to proceed with caution.

Rumors persist that there is an additional enchantment on the Demon Light that would animate it in times of trouble, in order to help protect Daggerford, although this has never happened and there is no actual evidence that this is the case.¹

*Volarra is the granddaughter of the legendary Volo, who, despite her parents best efforts, decided to follow her grandfather's line of work.² With the reappearance of Volo himself in recent years, her books have lost some of their prestige, especially since Volo denies ever having been married and having any children, much to the woman's chagrin (and anger).


Elminster's notes:
¹ A rumor started by the council of Daggerford itself, which makes certain groups think twice about launching attacks against the town. I'm fairly certain there is no truth to it, but since Khelben was involved in the original enchanments, one never knows.

² There is one major difference between the two in their 'style' of writing - Volarra is a level-headed, no-nonsense woman who doesn't fabricate facts to fit her narrative (and sell more books), and is quite modest, unlike her pruning relative.

³ She IS his granddaughter - the scallywag fathered several children back in the day, but with his constant moving about, is not aware of this.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2017 18:08:19
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2017 :  21:33:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From Volarra's Guide to the Shining Vale
Other interesting aspects of the Daggerford waterfront are the tridocks and the fairly new Mikitan Shipyards¹. The Mikitan Co. has the largest covered drydocks on the Sword Coast, which allows them to work in nearly any sort of weather, and the facilities have full access to the river. Unlike most other building in the Waterfront district, the building has a solid stone foundation built by the local dwarves of Clan Ironaxe, and can easily withstand the seasonal flooding. Nearly all other buildings in the waterfront district (outside the walls of the city proper) are built on 'stilts', or rather, dock-like platforms set above the high-water mark, which can vary as much as 20' in particularly wet seasons (and has been known to go even higher a time or two, under extremely rare and dubious circumstances). Fortunately, the river rarely rises to even the 20' mark in recent years.

Which brings us to the Tridocks, the likes of which this traveler has not seen anywhere else. The docks are built on three levels, one at 10' above the low water mark (the normal height for such things, to allow for easy loading of cargo onto an off of ships), another at 20', and third at 30' above the low-water water height. All are treated with special alchemical substances to make them resistant to rot and water damage. This weird setup was only first hit upon a century ago, when the city was badly flooded and many engineers from outside were brought in to help with the problems. In the past, Daggerford had normal docks, which would sit 20' above the median point of the water. This meant that in dry seasons - like the late summer months - ships would actually sit a good ten feet or more below the docks, forcing the use of ladders and switch-back gangplanks just to move to and fro. In very rainy seasons with extreme run-off, the water could go right to dock itself, which was both dangerous for the ships to tie-up against and also made disembarking (and boarding) anything and anyone even more difficult than during dry spells. At the time, the height of the docks were determined to be the best possible compromise, allowing normal routines during at least half the year.

However, after the harbor area (and nearby bridge) were rebuilt in the late 1370's DR, the tridock system was hit-upon and implemented, with ramps going up and down every so often to allow easy access to each level. These days, mostly only the bottom two levels get used, and the town is considering removing the top pier, because it has become the home of piles of trash and vagrants. However, other groups within the town simply want it cleaned-up and repurposed, perhaps as a tourist area, or a place for lovers (and others) to take walks on the Riverfront. I must say, the view - especially of the magnificent bridge downstream - is beautiful from the top section... if one watches where one steps.


¹ Volarra is unaware that there was another Mikitan Shipbuilding facility at Daggerford over a century ago, but this closed down not long after the building of the first Tyndal Bridge, because without the sea traffic, the family just felt there wasn't enough business servicing just the riverboats that came to call on the town. They had relocated to Orlumbor, and had even had another facility built on the Inner sea, but that one was destroyed during the Wailing Years. Only a decade or so ago the family lost its lease on the property on Orlumbor and decided to return to their roots. The family specializes in building vessels with 'hidden compartments', and not really caring who the clients are, which has lead to the Lords Alliance placing at least one agent in their employ to keep watch on things. The family is, of course, aware of this... or, at least, aware of the one agent they are supposed to know about. – Elminster

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2017 21:49:05
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
260 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2017 :  22:12:03  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lol, so Volo really fabricate stuff to sell books? And here I was thinking that Elminster was hard with him...

—Is there a catch?
—There's always a catch, life's a catch, so catch it while you can...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2017 :  02:32:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More like "he takes creative license", or "he's not adverse to printing rumors and legends and claiming they are facts".

In other words, 1e/2e's "unreliable narrator" style of lore (which you'll note, despite Elminster's testimony to the contrary, is precisely what I am trying to emulate here).

Volo also wasn't above taking 'free stuff' from people and places he then wrote good reviews about.

EDIT:
Because of the wonky scale(s) we had over the years, I keep finding more and more weirdness. Erik Boyd had shifted some stuff around trying to make sense of it all, combining the two different map keys we had. One thing that happened is that the old stables became the barracks (which makes sense - it needed a barracks inside the caste walls). However, I never increased the size of it, mostly because I greatly increased the scale, which should have covered that problem.

But it didn't. At the original scale, that long building could have maybe handled 20 men at best, and thats a TIGHT fit. I actually went ahead and drew beds (to scale! Its kind of nice working at a scale I can actually draw individual pieces of furniture ). So now, by increasing the size of that old building I've managed to keep the 'look' of the original, and it can now manage a 102 soldiers (although most of the time it would not maintain such numbers).

Part of all this is remembering that Daggerford may be a 'a town', but its a crucial part of the Lord's Alliance, and strategically placed for several reasons, not the least of which being a mid-point between Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate. I plan to do an entire write-up of Daggerford at this point for 5e, using my (more logical) maps, and inserting all the lore from every edition (aside from borrowing from Eric's circa 1357 DR lore, I now have to add-in all the 4e and 5e lore, of which there is quite a bit more than I had realized, and backwards-engineer it to fit what Eric wrote). Thus, either late today or tomorrow I should have a write-up for the new barracks (there WILL be intrigue! It IS The Realms, after all...)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Apr 2017 18:04:23
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 11 Apr 2017 :  19:46:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've totally decided to do a DM's Guild thing with this, but I'm putting it aside for a bit to finish the conversion. I started getting side-tracked again doing individual buildings (just the important ones... although interiors for the entire town is a possibility, eventually), and before I go off the rails completely I have to rein myself in. In the mean time, I plan to have several one-off adventures connected to Daggerford and the Shining Vale (which I note WotC renamed 'the Shining Valley' (but it means the same thing LOL). As part of that, I will be updating some really old Dungeon Magazine adventures for that purpose, including one I plan to set in the ruins of Tavaray (expect a map of that city at some point, set in the swamp). I plan to make that a cliff-side city, and have been looking for art of that. Of course, it isn't on the cliffsides anymore - that entire region collapsed nearly all the way down to sea-level (and there will be lore to go with that - I needed to explain the changes to the maps between editions). Thats what happens when you dig too much into natural limestone caverns (Trogs and other slimeys take up residence in the ruins now). Not sure what group I want to connect the founding of the city too - I may have it be one, with a second joining later (still using the 'inaccurate reporting' style from 1e, to allow DMs to tweak it anyway they want). The Netherese and Jhaamdath are both contenders; the Netherese make more sense, but too much gets connected to them, and Jhaamdath needs some love (plus, I want it be a wee bit 'Greco' in style, so something connected to the the Chondathan people makes sense... I really love me some Togas!)

So, in the interum, here's what I am picturing for Tavaray in its heyday -

The Prelate's High Estate

How the ruins would have looked now, had the plateau not collapsed. (I put it that way, because clearly no-one is living in those now).

The City Tax Collector's Office Located on the western outskirts of the city, to catch ship traffic as it first enters Tavaray.)

Passing through the city in the days of yore

Northmen Raiders are treated to an unpleasant welcome at the mouth of the River Shining, a millennia ago

The once beautiful streets of Tavaray

The Sea Tower of Ilinyth (to the south of Tavaray, now also just a ruin)

Ignore the waterfalls at the bottom of that last one - that would just be the Sword Coast there. Elves once sailed to Evermeet from Ilinyth in the heyday of the Retreat, but it hasn't been used in hundreds of years.

EDIT:
The Miyeritari city of Gælavaar, now lost beneath the High Moor

Mystra's Dance, as it was during the time of Athalantar (now sunk further into the Sea)

The Gates of Tavaray

The city didn't actually sit on the coast (referencing Erik's notes on it now), so I will just have to say it sat in a natural 'bowl' along the gorge that holds the river (perhaps a section of the plateau that had collapsed at an earlier time? After all, most of Toril is pretty hollow, with the Underdark and all). A bowl they widened as the city grew.

So it makes some sense that the River Delimbiyr actually had a waterfall at one time when it reached the coast, perhaps even during the time of the Crown Wars, and the river cut a gorge into the limestone plateau over the course of thousands of years. By the time humans began settling The North, they would just think "It was always that way" (and from their point of view, it was). Whats interesting is that we have a similar situation just north where the Selpir empties into the Sevenfalls. Perhaps that, too, will 'collapse' given time.






"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Apr 2017 21:08:11
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe

USA
107 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2017 :  03:13:27  Show Profile  Send LordXenophon an AOL message Send LordXenophon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I see a lot of posts about making drawbridges, to explain how a bridge can cross a navigable river. In our own world, this was done for thousands of years, before drawbridges were invented. The usual method is to make the bridge high. It can cross where the land is high on both sides, such as in a canyon, or it can arch. The road can also be built up on both sides. Bridges with flat and level roads across them are a relatively recent invention.

Another thing to remember is that tall ships are also a relatively recent invention. It doesn't take all that high a bridge to get a raker or a drakkar under it. Clippers and galleons were never meant to sail rivers.

Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder.

Edited by - LordXenophon on 30 Apr 2017 03:16:43
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2017 :  04:50:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, thats what I went with - the drawbridge idea was kinda cool, but it was too involved (for something with no previous lore), so I had gone with the same idea you just said. Here's what I got done -

Daggerford Area Map 1.0

I plan to come back to this, but I want to get the Nentir Vale conversion done, and then get by to the real project - remapping the Eastern Heartlands.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29908 Posts

Posted - 30 Apr 2017 :  05:00:24  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon

I see a lot of posts about making drawbridges, to explain how a bridge can cross a navigable river. In our own world, this was done for thousands of years, before drawbridges were invented. The usual method is to make the bridge high. It can cross where the land is high on both sides, such as in a canyon, or it can arch. The road can also be built up on both sides. Bridges with flat and level roads across them are a relatively recent invention.

Another thing to remember is that tall ships are also a relatively recent invention. It doesn't take all that high a bridge to get a raker or a drakkar under it. Clippers and galleons were never meant to sail rivers.



The problem is that if there is a ford there, then you don't have that deep of a river -- so a bridge to accommodate boat traffic has to be pretty dang tall... or a drawbridge.

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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 01 May 2017 :  14:15:19  Show Profile  Send LordXenophon an AOL message Send LordXenophon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If the area is hilly, the ford can be in the low spot between hills, the bridge at the high point across two hills. If you need to, you can build two hills.

20' is all it takes to get an ordinary river barge through.

My own home town has a spot, where we used to have a bridge and a ford in the same spot, on a legally navigable river. The bridge rises another 15' or so, from the high bank of the river. The ford was just a strip of asphalt that you could drive across, when the river was dry. You had to go about 30' down an incline, cross the river and climb back up on the other side. The distance between the bridge and the ford was only a few feet.

That gets a lot easier, if you put a block or two between bridge and ford. The ford could be the mouth of a canyon, with the bridge over the canyon, on the hilly side of town.

Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 01 May 2017 :  18:46:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Which is pretty much what I did. The conversation started in the Liam's Hold thread, and ended here. Its pretty-much set in stone now.

Just click on the link above - it shows the bridge between two hills.

I 'solved' the ford by putting it at the halfway point where the town meets the river. It used to be at 'the old road', but since that time the town has the river dredged so that deep-water traffic may access its docks (up to that halfway point - everything to the east of that would just be river-boat traffic). This solves all problems, and doesn't really conflict with existing lore. This newer bridge would have been built right after the start-date of the 3e era, because the old bridge (and even some of the town) got 'washed away' with the coming of the Shades. Before that time, the river wasn't dredged, and only river boats could reach Daggerford (and even then, the ford would have been impassable during the spring-thaw months).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 01 May 2017 :  19:25:31  Show Profile  Send LordXenophon an AOL message Send LordXenophon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In my own campaign, I've been explaining the ford the other way around. You can get boats through in the warmer months, but in the winter, the water is low.

Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder.
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Markustay
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Posted - 01 May 2017 :  19:40:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Warmer months AND winter are fine. Its only when you get all the run-off from the various mountains dumping into the River Shining that the river swells (I'd say about 10' above normal - thats what i based everything off of for that map), and that's only 'early spring' except in weird circumstances like what happened when the Shades returned - half of Daggerford was underwater!

During the exceptional hot months, and when there's very little rain, even on the 'dredged' end of the town ships need to be careful - that river is very large, and has hundreds of tributaries (most we don't even see on maps), so there is a LOT of fluctuation with high high it gets. Thats why I also created the completely non-canon 'Demonlight', which functions as both a lighthouse, and as a warning light for how deep the river is.

During times of severe drought, ships may even have to anchor near the caravan camping area over by the tannery, and bring their goods ashore via rowboat.

The Daggerford area is a most excellent campaign setting, and hopefully Eric's wonderful Under Illefarn Anew will find its way to everyone, perhaps through the DM's Guild (although he probably doesn't have time to convert it to 5e right now - someone mechanically inclined should team-up with him on that). I'm converting a LOT of video game material over to my Nentir Vale conversion map, and I got the idea from the work I did on this one (like that 'Daggerfort' outpost across the river - I should really throw the map key on at least that part).

I'll also be placing the stuff from the 5e DMG on it as well, when i get to this region again with my main project.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 May 2017 19:46:25
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 02 May 2017 :  14:03:36  Show Profile  Send LordXenophon an AOL message Send LordXenophon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Funny you should mention Illefarn, the day after my players decided to go there. Do you happen to know the name of the Dwarven ruin under it?

Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13459 Posts

Posted - 02 May 2017 :  16:06:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon

Funny you should mention Illefarn, the day after my players decided to go there. Do you happen to know the name of the Dwarven ruin under it?
Runedardath

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe

Belgium
246 Posts

Posted - 26 Jun 2017 :  21:07:45  Show Profile Send Duneth Despana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fantastic map! Really makes me want to set my next campaign in that area! ... say, I never heard about Kauth before (north of zelbross). Or maybe that's a question for Eric?

« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 27 Jun 2017 :  16:25:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kauth is tiny settlement that is only famous because it was home of one of the greatest cartographer's in realms history. After he died, his entire collection was transported to candlekeep, but many think he had 'secret maps' stashed away somewhere, and adventurers occasionally poke around Kauth looking for them... much to the townsfolk's annoyance.

Erik and I had decided to add that as a homage to the creator of the original 3e Campaign map, who's worked I emulated for years. he had passed away just when I was starting the Daggerford/Under Illefarn Anew project.


I also had a Schendivar... but Erik felt that one was TOO obvious.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe

Belgium
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Posted - 27 Jun 2017 :  21:23:40  Show Profile Send Duneth Despana a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's great! (you must know this, but there's also a Kauth alley in Daggerford)... say you wouldn't happen to know the realms name of that cartographer?

« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1

Edited by - Duneth Despana on 27 Jun 2017 21:25:03
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 27 Jun 2017 :  23:57:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The name of the RW cartographer was Dennis Kauth, and although he didn't know who I was, I owe him much. I'm not sure if there was ever a FR name given for the cartographer; let me check the entry...

quote:
Crown of Eaerlann, © Erik Boyd
Kauth (Hamlet, 96): Situated midway between Zelbross
and Loudwater along the Delimbiyr Route, this quiet hamlet is
known for its decorative coaches, much favored by nobles in
far-­off Waterdeep, built by master wainwrights. Kauth is
named for the master mapmaker who once dwelled here,
whose signature adorns the most famous maps of the North.

So it appears the FR Cartographer had the same name as the RW one, but I would say in FR that was a first name, not a surname (as it is in RW). I might call him 'Kauth the khartêsian' (khartês being an ancient word for 'map').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jun 2017 00:03:23
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4791 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2017 :  13:14:30  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I also had a Schendivar... but Erik felt that one was TOO obvious.



From the guy who named a dragon Krashos Morueme.



-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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