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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  23:49:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I could go along with the idea of putting Jakandor down by Osse. In fact, that may be the best place for it, just to give some form to the area. Having Jakandor being an island that was in Abeir and it appears between Osse and Malatra right around where it says "ern" in Eastern Sea on the Scholar's View of Abeir-Toril would give it just enough isolation while also opening up the island to some neighboring areas that have at least has some development (Malatra and T'u Lung) and make it also a stepping stone into Osse.

The more I think on having the Knorrman people as being from Western Osse itself, the more I like it. Having the "allies" that the Knorrman people were trading with be from T'u Lung or Zakhara both could fit... or even having the Knorrman people being from that island on the southwestern side of Osse and the "allies" being from northern Osse. Then it would make sense that the two cultures were headed to war (the Knorrmans headed north) when the spellplague happens and they go to Abeir and then end up on Jakandor after the storm pushes them more westward and away from Osse (and in my version, I send Osse to Abeir as well... or at least some of the eastern portion of it).

So, at the end of the day, what does this get us? Jakandor to play with, relatively close to Kara-Tur and Malatra. It also gives us an idea of some of the cultures of western Osse that we can develop. It could make for a pretty decent campaign area, mixing jungle natives of Malatra (which has some unusual races), the people of Shou Lung, the Knorr, the Charonti, and possibly whatever we want to make of the "allies" which are from Osse.




Oh, and along those ideas.... IF the Knorr people were from those islands along southern Osse, and their transfer was over a hundred years ago..... and if only a portion of the continent of Osse (say the Eastern Islands and some of the eastern part of the continent)transferred to Abeir.... what's happened over the past 100 years with the Knorr folk who were down on that island and the part of Osse that "remained" on Toril? Did they conquer a large portion of Osse?

How would a return to Toril affect the islanders of Jakandor? Technically, they would still be isolated enough to still think that they're alone in the world. Might the Knorr see this as the War Mother signaling her displeasure and they must kill the Charonti at all costs?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2017 :  04:41:14  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm thinking that the Knorr being barbarians look more "northern" but that is certainly my real world influences coming to the fore.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2017 :  19:59:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, sinc ethis IS a conversion, just about anything really goes, and its also 'not Earth', so there we go.

I think of the Knorr more like Conan/Cimmerians, which were based on more of a Germanic (Goth) type of people (so not the 'Aryan archtype' the Nazis loved so much, but rather, the reality that was the German people).

Now, if we picture the original (FR) Northmen coming from that large peninsula sticking out from the top of Anchorômé, and then those same peoples spreading south and west as well (on into all those islands and the 'continent' itself (I'm still in-love with the 'shattered land' concept for Anchorômé), then they may have settled the northern portion of Anchorômé, as we suspect RW Norse did here in the Americas, and if those same 'mixed' peoples reached all the way across to the other coast over the centuries, the Knorr may be distantly related to the Illusk people in much the same way that the Rashemi 'Rus' are, except instead of Slavic-like {Raumvari} blood, there's would be Anchorômé native, which could even maybe be the Poscador (sp?) elves, or at least, perhaps a small percentage of it - it could also be some other indigenous human population we haven't heard about (so something similar to RW native Americans, distantly related to the Mazticans).

Thus, in RW terms, the Knorr could be something akin to a Norse/Amerind hybrid (which fits both their 'look' and culture well).

And since I'm on this subject, and its just dawning on me - south American indigenous people are quite tiny compared to Europeans. I have to wonder, were their northern cousins of similar build, before an admixture of Norse blood? North American natives all have stories about 'warlike giants' - that may have meant the Norse, since they would indeed seem like giants compared to a people who were around 5' tall (the same could be said for the original inhabitants of the British islands, because they, too, have stories of 'invading giants'). Of course, this is all RW theory, so maybe this is not the place. Still, I find this sort of thing fascinating (comparing folklore to RW migrations, etc).

@GK - If you have Jakandor: Isle of War, look at the very first piece of artwork in that book. I too thought of them as 'Norse', but you can see clearly see there is quite a bit of 'Native American' going on there.

EDIT: Hmmmmm... and there is a pic on pg.5 where the guy's ear look a little pointy, almost like a half-elf.

Sure, its just one piece of artwork (I haven't looked beyond that page just now), but still, it could lend some relevance to my theory of Pocador elf blood mixed with northmen (there's also a bit of a 'druidic' vibe going on there, and with the face-paint one might also think 'Celtish').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2017 20:06:28
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2017 :  20:29:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
New theory: What if jakandor didn't go to Abeir (and back)?

What if Jakandor is something else - almost like the original Ravenloft, which only consisted of Borovia originally. Now, Borovia was supposedly in GH first, but there is also some lore about it having been in Mystara (are Mystara and Oerth connected in a way similar to Abeir and Toril? Thats conjecture for elsewhere). Maybe Jakandor is a 'proto-demiplane', just starting out. Instead of 'fear' (horror), the emotional state its based on is aggression (War)?

I got this idea when it popped into my head that Jakandor 'moves about', and I realized that it doesn't need to reappear in the same spot it left Toril (so, it could have been over by Osse, and now it could be somewhere between Faerûn, Maztica, and zakhara). The lore we have for it could easily be a century out-of-date... or not. just more 'food for thought'. We (or WotC, if they are reading this LOL) could do this with a few islands, including the other two i stuffed into that map - The Isle of the Ape, and the Isle of Dread (which, come to think of it, has also been in both Mystara and Greyhawk... hmmmmm...)

Instead of cross-setting inconsistencies, maybe we've discovered a new type of lore - 'Glitches in the Matrix'. They could use this with the new aproach to D&D & FR, and even make the inconsistencies part of the canon (overgods 'mucking about', swapping pieces in-and-out, maybe even trading stuff). So every world is like a lego set, and there is a 'side-world' which is like the box of extra bits.

Just another crazy idea, is all.

EDIT:
So if every world has its 'side world', what would be Krynn's? Athas?
That kind of makes sense...

EDIT2:
Now my brain is running away with this idea - "The Plane of 'Junkers' ". LOL
Thats the alternate Prime Material where all these 'spare parts worlds' exist, which are separate (disconnected) from the others in 'regular space'. We have lore that Abeir, Athas, and Mystara are all disconnected like this.

EDIT3:
Okay, I keep forgetting the exact term, but the main three worlds (of 2e) were all considered part of some 'grand triune' or some such, and remained static in regards to each other, within the greater multiverse. What if that was 'ghosted' by the 'junkers' , and there was another, inverted triangle? And they overlapped...

We'd have something like THIS. Now I'm getting all metaphysical, Illuminati-ish LOL

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2017 20:47:55
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2017 :  13:40:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I'm thinking that the Knorr being barbarians look more "northern" but that is certainly my real world influences coming to the fore.

-- George Krashos



I had thought that too, until I really started looking at the Jakandor stuff. With a name like Knorrman, it was obviously intended to be a joke somewhat on Norman people. However, they remind me very much of a mix of native American mixed with Viking. Perhaps if we ever learned anything of the "Vanir" people rather than the Aesir people they'd match up. Also, as Markustay mentions, YES the barbarians of Cimmeria would very much fit with the idea.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2017 :  13:45:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

New theory: What if jakandor didn't go to Abeir (and back)?

What if Jakandor is something else - almost like the original Ravenloft, which only consisted of Borovia originally. Now, Borovia was supposedly in GH first, but there is also some lore about it having been in Mystara (are Mystara and Oerth connected in a way similar to Abeir and Toril? Thats conjecture for elsewhere). Maybe Jakandor is a 'proto-demiplane', just starting out. Instead of 'fear' (horror), the emotional state its based on is aggression (War)?

I got this idea when it popped into my head that Jakandor 'moves about', and I realized that it doesn't need to reappear in the same spot it left Toril (so, it could have been over by Osse, and now it could be somewhere between Faerûn, Maztica, and zakhara). The lore we have for it could easily be a century out-of-date... or not. just more 'food for thought'. We (or WotC, if they are reading this LOL) could do this with a few islands, including the other two i stuffed into that map - The Isle of the Ape, and the Isle of Dread (which, come to think of it, has also been in both Mystara and Greyhawk... hmmmmm...)

Instead of cross-setting inconsistencies, maybe we've discovered a new type of lore - 'Glitches in the Matrix'. They could use this with the new aproach to D&D & FR, and even make the inconsistencies part of the canon (overgods 'mucking about', swapping pieces in-and-out, maybe even trading stuff). So every world is like a lego set, and there is a 'side-world' which is like the box of extra bits.

Just another crazy idea, is all.

EDIT:
So if every world has its 'side world', what would be Krynn's? Athas?
That kind of makes sense...

EDIT2:
Now my brain is running away with this idea - "The Plane of 'Junkers' ". LOL
Thats the alternate Prime Material where all these 'spare parts worlds' exist, which are separate (disconnected) from the others in 'regular space'. We have lore that Abeir, Athas, and Mystara are all disconnected like this.

EDIT3:
Okay, I keep forgetting the exact term, but the main three worlds (of 2e) were all considered part of some 'grand triune' or some such, and remained static in regards to each other, within the greater multiverse. What if that was 'ghosted' by the 'junkers' , and there was another, inverted triangle? And they overlapped...

We'd have something like THIS. Now I'm getting all metaphysical, Illuminati-ish LOL



Along those ideas... we know that Toril and Abeir are "out of phase" with one another, such that they occupy the same space and use the same sun. However, we don't know that they spin at the same speed. Even a few minutes slower spin over time could make a huge difference over a hundred years. So, yeah, I could definitely see some things not shifting back and forth correctly. Maybe even that's why Akanul stayed, but PORTIONS of Tymanther didn't.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Bragi
Seeker

USA
87 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  17:34:49  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

New theory: What if jakandor didn't go to Abeir (and back)?
What if Jakandor is something else - almost like the original Ravenloft, which only consisted of Borovia originally.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe Jakandor is a 'proto-demiplane', just starting out. Instead of 'fear' (horror), the emotional state its based on is aggression (War)?



I like this idea and it's not without precedent. The city of Shade existed in the Plane of Shadow and only recently has returned to Toril. An even better example is that of the Star Elves and the realm of Sildëyuir which it itself a part of the Feywild. The Shadowfell, Feywild, and Ethereal planes are all overlaid on top of the prime material plane so it almost makes sense that locations from these planes could occasionally bleed in to Toril.

Jakandor could be imagined as existing on some part of the Feywild analogous to Sildëyuir. Access to Jakandor could also be obtained in a Ravenloft like fashion. Ships sailing in to an area of un-naturally steamy weather suddenly find themselves in Jakandor. Of course, leaving Jakandor would be easier than leaving Ravenloft.

It could also work similar to a bag of holding. A small island surrounded by steam in Toril could be the opening to a much larger island that is Jakandor. This alleviates the issue of trying to fit the exact size of Jakandor on the maps of Toril. The entrance to Jakandor could be anchored to a much smaller island in Toril.


In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  02:46:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bragi

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

New theory: What if jakandor didn't go to Abeir (and back)?
What if Jakandor is something else - almost like the original Ravenloft, which only consisted of Borovia originally.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe Jakandor is a 'proto-demiplane', just starting out. Instead of 'fear' (horror), the emotional state its based on is aggression (War)?



I like this idea and it's not without precedent. The city of Shade existed in the Plane of Shadow and only recently has returned to Toril. An even better example is that of the Star Elves and the realm of Sildëyuir which it itself a part of the Feywild. The Shadowfell, Feywild, and Ethereal planes are all overlaid on top of the prime material plane so it almost makes sense that locations from these planes could occasionally bleed in to Toril.

Jakandor could be imagined as existing on some part of the Feywild analogous to Sildëyuir. Access to Jakandor could also be obtained in a Ravenloft like fashion. Ships sailing in to an area of un-naturally steamy weather suddenly find themselves in Jakandor. Of course, leaving Jakandor would be easier than leaving Ravenloft.

It could also work similar to a bag of holding. A small island surrounded by steam in Toril could be the opening to a much larger island that is Jakandor. This alleviates the issue of trying to fit the exact size of Jakandor on the maps of Toril. The entrance to Jakandor could be anchored to a much smaller island in Toril.





Hmmm, I had missed Markustay's statement about a proto-demiplane based on war..... So, maybe a sentient demi-plane which purposely puts people together and encourages them to kill one another. With the Knorr worshipping "the War Mother", this gets very interesting indeed. I'm gonna go bake on this idea.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  19:06:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've just been study BRJ's Chronology of the Primes, trying to find the links I need between GH and FR for something in another thread, and I noticed this bit:

quote:
647 DR [Year of the Wayward Heart]
1. The Nation of Barovia is founded on an unknown world by the ancestors of Strahd von Zarovich. (1 BY, Ravenloft)


I can see why he went that way with it, since we've had lore saying it was part of at least two different settings history (further proof that 'pieces' get swapped between worlds all the time?), but it made me think about Jakandor as a proto-demiplane again. I also noticed yesterday on a map of the Material plane (either 4e or 5e - I'm not sure which) that they placed the Isle of dread in the Plane of Water. Thats pretty cool, because it lends credence to the theory that a lot of these D&D 'archtype' sites are actually located 'next to', but not 'in', the Prime Material. What if thats how planes are 'born'? I recall a discussion a LONG time ago on the WotC boards about Ravenloft being like this, but now I am seeing the possibility for others. What if extreme emotional states cause planes to 'bud', and we get these little demiplanes - that reach tendrils into other worlds and 'eat' the stuff they find there, adding mass to themselves?

And, either in this thread or a related one, I talked about the 'triune' of "spare-parts worlds" (theoretically, Abeir, Athas, and Mystara... I think) that might exist. I suppose Eberron might be one, considering it also has a 'wonky' connection to the rest of the D&Dverse.

But the point I want to make is, maybe the Overpowers use this natural 'budding' of planes to create these storage-planes (actually, part of the Material plane, but out-of-phase with the Prime... just like the Shadowfell and the Feywild, in fact). They take a budding demiplane and use it as their 'cosmic bag-of-holding'. Hell, maybe its even like a CTCG - they get together every once in awhile and trade places ("I'll give you my mint-condition Maztica for your holographic Borovia - its rare!" )

Even Mystara has some of this 'places moving about' going on in its history (I think their powers ran out of room on the surface, and had to create the Hollow World... so maybe a storage place got its own storage place... sounds like Mystara's Immortals are a bunch of Hoarders ).

And just maybe, these Overpowers ARE trying to repair that First (True) World; some of them, at any rate. Did you ever do a big puzzle with other people? You are all looking through the pieces and have your own separate 'maybe piles' going on, and then you start looking in the other person's stuff and you're like, "I think this one may be mine", and then they start looking at your pile for the same reason... like that.

And their could even be 'doubles' that happen by accident, like how Soth's realm got 'cloned', sort of, to wind up on two worlds at the same time (although the DL people will argue it never left).

Perhaps other forces want to maintain the status quo and not allow the First World to be reborn. The fiends jump to mind. I picture the demons just wanting everything to end, because they all work for Cthon (Elder Elmental Eye, Cthulhu, whatever), whether they know it or not. The devils, however, don't want everything destroyed, nor do they want it all 'fixed' - they make out best if everything continues to remain the way it is now (a shattered universe that they can 'divide and conquer').

This would also all relate back to the purpose of the Illithids, and their war with the Gith (the 'Race of Destiny'?), but now I'm going really far afield, so I'll just stop now.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Apr 2017 19:09:47
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