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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2017 :  19:07:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So perhaps my placing Returned Abeir near Jakandor wasn't so silly after all?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Bragi
Seeker

USA
20 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  07:51:07  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Mark and Phillip, I'm just getting back in to running a Forgotten Realms campaign and I'm trying to at least get all of my major landmasses squared away. I really like the idea of using Jakandor but your map is a little too crowded for me but here's another idea. Why not just overlay Jakandor on top of Lopango? It looks like they are roughly the same size. All you would have to do is rotate Jakandor clockwise about 30 degrees. You could say that one is part of Abeir and one is part of Toril and when the Sundering took place they both materialized in the same location. You could have features of both or you could say that one fades out while the other one fades in. Like how the Black Fortress fades in on Krull.

That's similar to what I'm thinking of for Anchorome. I'd like to reconcile Ed's concept of a series of islands so I was considering the following homemade explanation: Anchorome is known as the lost continent both figuratively and literally. Before the time of the first Sundering Anchorome was a continent north of Maztica upon which lived a civilization of psionicists who foresaw the tragic actions of the High Magi in the Heartlands. Their warnings fell on deaf ears so they decided to attempt to save as much of their continent as they could. Combining their potent psychic powers they created a temporary weave of psionic energy that was formed when the sundering occurred but they were not as successful as they had hoped. They were unable to control such an enormous amount of energy. The continent of Anchorome was ripped asunder as it was torn between the worlds of Abeir and Toril. The ocean's waters rushed in to fill the gaps that the tears caused. For all of recorded history there stood towering pillars of land jutting out of the sea like teeth from a great leviathan. For every missing piece of land in Toril the opposite was true in Abeir. That is how the islands of Anchorome were formed both in toril and in Abeir like giant puzzle pieces that could never be put back together. The tales of Anchorome speak of a series of deadly islands separated by fierce currents but none knew the truth of what once was a mighty continent until after the Time of Troubles in 1358 DR. After AO destroyed the Tablets of Fate, remnants of the latent psionic energy started to reunite the shattered continent of Anchorome and was the very first place where Abeir and Toril started to switch. Eventually this caused a great disruption that Mystra was able to contain but it came at a great price. The greatly weakened Mystra was now vulnerable. Seizing the opportunity Cyric and Shar began their scheming which lead to the assassination of Mystra and the start of the Spellplague. By the time that Cordell reached Maztica in 1361 DR the continent of Anchorome has been restored but the tales that the people of Maztica told were too wild to be taken seriously and the first omen of the Spellplague was ignored.

In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6219 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  15:42:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Two reasons for not putting it as an overlay of Lopango. Jakandor is supposed to be physically isolated as an island, and Lopango is attached to Maztica. Also, this puts successful spellcasters right up next to Maztica (and having been there for some time) and that doesn't fit the region

2nd reason is more personal. I like the concept of DMs guild. One of the things that I saw happen there is a group calling themselves Maztica Alive has published some material for Maztica and the Lopango area. Its not bad. Its not necessarily all to my taste either (for instance, they have these jungle orc sorcerers... and personally I don't see orc sorcerers being that common... warlocks and priests maybe). But, I'm adding to the Lopango area, but I'm specifically sticking to areas outside of what they detailed while using some of what they detailed (i.e. they have a "Natican" race of humans, a servile race of lizard folk called cayma, the aforementioned jungle orcs, etc...).

I'm also working up in Anchorome's area. I'm keeping the map roughly the same as it was portrayed with the Scholar's Guide to Abeir Toril. However, I'm only showing two snippets of the region. Specifically, I made a new map of the city of gold region (i.e. Pasocada Basin), and I had the city of Esh Alakar get taken over by red wizards. These red wizards find abundant sand nearby and decide they want to learn to make glassteel (since regular steel isn't so common here). This has resulted in a lot of "slag" glass, which they've used for decorative purposes AND to make a region I'm calling "the City on the Great Glass Sea".... essentially turning a small portion of the desert into a kind of large lake that they use weather magic to keep full. Not a major change for the region, but some improvement.

The other region I'm working on in Anchorome is Balduran Bay (or where Fort Flame was). Its stated in some older products that Fort Flame was looking for Calishite alchemical fire of some sort to burn the surrounding jungles. I stepped that up and had Thayans show up wanting an enclave and a large swathe of land (which the Thayans would have to build and hold themselves). In return they'd provide protection, offensive support against the native elves, and fire and other magical support. The story gets a little longer with refugees from the Thindol, Tashalar, and Samarach regions arriving, plus other Thayans fed up with the civil war. Essentially, Fort Flame/Balduran Bay becomes the first step of a lot of red wizard growth that occurs in the Maztica, Anchorome, Katashaka areas in the past century. Technically, Fort Flame would pretty much have no choice but to accept the offer, as they truthfully had no means to stop the red wizards going out in the woods and building their own settlement, and since the terms were amenable to both sides... they chose to work with them (and in my version its helped both sides).

I should stress, I'm making these tharchs all over the place, but for the most part, none of them are huge in population. They're "points of light" in that they are small holdings (most of these tharchs have at most 10 major cities and less than 250,000 people throughout, only a portion of which are human, and of those humans only a portion of which are Mulan). A couple (Luneira and Oslander Islands) will end up extremely small (less than probably 40,000 individuals), but serve to open up at least SOME exploration/discussion in the areas.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  18:30:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Bragi - I think I mentioned earlier the placement wasn't really to my liking - I made a big compromise, giving-up a major aspect of the Jakandor campaign setting (isolation) and trading it for 'usability' (because honestly, I don't think anything outside of Faerûn's 'Heartlands' gets much game-play).

Ideally, I think the sea around Osse would be best. In fact, there is a large island just SW of it that is just the right shape and size (although I don't think the climate is quite right, but you never know). Perhaps sitting all by itself, somewhere west of the straight that passes between Anchorome and Katashaka? As soon as we start moving it somewhere more accessible, we start to destroy the flavor, unfortunately (unless we fudge the flavor for 4e/5e, and say its been in Abeir, which works, which is what I think I was going for when I made that 'crowded' map).

I also think I mentioned the 'shattered continent' idea earlier in the thread (or elsewhere), but I really like where you took that - that the opposite pieces are in Abeir - that's pretty nifty, and very unconventional way to further link the two settings. You are sorely tempting me to look into that right now... must... resist.. LOL

If I wasn't trying to get something presentable out the door today for the Nentir/Neverwinter conversion I might have just done that. its a VERY cool idea.
I have ideas for the other continents and their 'mirror' selves, but not for that. I'll have to steal it, if and when I ever get around to a 'planet Abeir' map.

I would still love to shoe-horn Dragonlance onto that map (even though I know of two mods that wouldn't be thrilled by that LOL), because the two Krynish landmasses we know of are tiny compared to most settings. After all, I have every intention of swapping Greyhawk for Anchorme, so why not just go all the way and make FR the 'World of D&D'. Considering the place was ruled/overrun with 'draconic thingies & gods', it makes sense, IMO (seriously, just make draconians a specific form of dragonborn - didn't they do that in 4e anyway? I think they assigned the different versions of Draconians to to different 'tiers' of play, to account for stuff like the wings).

The northern hemisphere of Abeir should be a dry and desolate place (deserts and steamy jungles - good place to stick Dark Sun), and the southern hemisphere could be more temperate, especially near the southern pole (where I would stick Ansalon).

Just picture a world where there is almost zero traffic between land masses, especially ones far apart. The 'Deep Seas' would hold monsters that would consider Krakens a light snack (think 'Sea Kings' from One Piece for those monsters, and the Zaratan of the Al-Qadim setting). Also, you'd have truly ancient, eldritch dragons still around - ones that would be pretty-much 'gods' in their own right, so even airships wouldn't be a safe way to travel. The dragons themselves would be wary of flying to low, lest the 'Sea Kings' surface and grab them right out ofthe air (picture the final scene in the last Jurassic Park movie). Thus, only the insane or foolishly brave would take to the Oceans (local waters/seas would be somewhat safer, so lots of island-clusters where sea traffic is okay). In fact, there should only be a couple of large continents in the Northern hemisphere, and then just tons of archipelagos all over the southern waters.

Zero axial tilt, so the equator becomes a nigh-uncrossible 'boiling zone' of steamy mists and all sorts of other unpleasantness (perhaps these are the 'spawning waters' of the insanely huge sea monsters?) the 'Silvered Shield' of the skies prevents folks from looking in (literally bends light around it like a mirror - I've mentioned this before. Abeir is IN normal Realmspace, its just that its sort of invisible), and it also defuses the sunlight quite a bit (which is another reason sea voyage are so hard to do - no stars to navigate by; you'd need a Norse 'Sunstone' to even use the sun... which is kinda cool, because I can picture the minotaurs of Taladas having those).

I'm really in favor of WotC using the Sundering to pull a 'Crisis on multiple settings' thing, a'la DC comics.
Of course, except for people who are solely "D&D gamers", I'm probably alone in that among the die-hard fans. That would rock the boat of just about every separate D&D fandom. The Mystara guys might even think of THEIR setting as more of a 'sacred cow' than we do (and yes, i plan to butcher that and use it as well).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2017 19:37:41
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6219 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  23:40:01  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could go along with the idea of putting Jakandor down by Osse. In fact, that may be the best place for it, just to give some form to the area. Having Jakandor being an island that was in Abeir and it appears between Osse and Malatra right around where it says "ern" in Eastern Sea on the Scholar's View of Abeir-Toril would give it just enough isolation while also opening up the island to some neighboring areas that have at least has some development (Malatra and T'u Lung) and make it also a stepping stone into Osse.

The more I think on having the Knorrman people as being from Western Osse itself, the more I like it. Having the "allies" that the Knorrman people were trading with be from T'u Lung or Zakhara both could fit... or even having the Knorrman people being from that island on the southwestern side of Osse and the "allies" being from northern Osse. Then it would make sense that the two cultures were headed to war (the Knorrmans headed north) when the spellplague happens and they go to Abeir and then end up on Jakandor after the storm pushes them more westward and away from Osse (and in my version, I send Osse to Abeir as well... or at least some of the eastern portion of it).

So, at the end of the day, what does this get us? Jakandor to play with, relatively close to Kara-Tur and Malatra. It also gives us an idea of some of the cultures of western Osse that we can develop. It could make for a pretty decent campaign area, mixing jungle natives of Malatra (which has some unusual races), the people of Shou Lung, the Knorr, the Charonti, and possibly whatever we want to make of the "allies" which are from Osse.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6219 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2017 :  23:49:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I could go along with the idea of putting Jakandor down by Osse. In fact, that may be the best place for it, just to give some form to the area. Having Jakandor being an island that was in Abeir and it appears between Osse and Malatra right around where it says "ern" in Eastern Sea on the Scholar's View of Abeir-Toril would give it just enough isolation while also opening up the island to some neighboring areas that have at least has some development (Malatra and T'u Lung) and make it also a stepping stone into Osse.

The more I think on having the Knorrman people as being from Western Osse itself, the more I like it. Having the "allies" that the Knorrman people were trading with be from T'u Lung or Zakhara both could fit... or even having the Knorrman people being from that island on the southwestern side of Osse and the "allies" being from northern Osse. Then it would make sense that the two cultures were headed to war (the Knorrmans headed north) when the spellplague happens and they go to Abeir and then end up on Jakandor after the storm pushes them more westward and away from Osse (and in my version, I send Osse to Abeir as well... or at least some of the eastern portion of it).

So, at the end of the day, what does this get us? Jakandor to play with, relatively close to Kara-Tur and Malatra. It also gives us an idea of some of the cultures of western Osse that we can develop. It could make for a pretty decent campaign area, mixing jungle natives of Malatra (which has some unusual races), the people of Shou Lung, the Knorr, the Charonti, and possibly whatever we want to make of the "allies" which are from Osse.




Oh, and along those ideas.... IF the Knorr people were from those islands along southern Osse, and their transfer was over a hundred years ago..... and if only a portion of the continent of Osse (say the Eastern Islands and some of the eastern part of the continent)transferred to Abeir.... what's happened over the past 100 years with the Knorr folk who were down on that island and the part of Osse that "remained" on Toril? Did they conquer a large portion of Osse?

How would a return to Toril affect the islanders of Jakandor? Technically, they would still be isolated enough to still think that they're alone in the world. Might the Knorr see this as the War Mother signaling her displeasure and they must kill the Charonti at all costs?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4949 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2017 :  04:41:14  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm thinking that the Knorr being barbarians look more "northern" but that is certainly my real world influences coming to the fore.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2017 :  19:59:45  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, sinc ethis IS a conversion, just about anything really goes, and its also 'not Earth', so there we go.

I think of the Knorr more like Conan/Cimmerians, which were based on more of a Germanic (Goth) type of people (so not the 'Aryan archtype' the Nazis loved so much, but rather, the reality that was the German people).

Now, if we picture the original (FR) Northmen coming from that large peninsula sticking out from the top of Anchorômé, and then those same peoples spreading south and west as well (on into all those islands and the 'continent' itself (I'm still in-love with the 'shattered land' concept for Anchorômé), then they may have settled the northern portion of Anchorômé, as we suspect RW Norse did here in the Americas, and if those same 'mixed' peoples reached all the way across to the other coast over the centuries, the Knorr may be distantly related to the Illusk people in much the same way that the Rashemi 'Rus' are, except instead of Slavic-like {Raumvari} blood, there's would be Anchorômé native, which could even maybe be the Poscador (sp?) elves, or at least, perhaps a small percentage of it - it could also be some other indigenous human population we haven't heard about (so something similar to RW native Americans, distantly related to the Mazticans).

Thus, in RW terms, the Knorr could be something akin to a Norse/Amerind hybrid (which fits both their 'look' and culture well).

And since I'm on this subject, and its just dawning on me - south American indigenous people are quite tiny compared to Europeans. I have to wonder, were their northern cousins of similar build, before an admixture of Norse blood? North American natives all have stories about 'warlike giants' - that may have meant the Norse, since they would indeed seem like giants compared to a people who were around 5' tall (the same could be said for the original inhabitants of the British islands, because they, too, have stories of 'invading giants'). Of course, this is all RW theory, so maybe this is not the place. Still, I find this sort of thing fascinating (comparing folklore to RW migrations, etc).

@GK - If you have Jakandor: Isle of War, look at the very first piece of artwork in that book. I too thought of them as 'Norse', but you can see clearly see there is quite a bit of 'Native American' going on there.

EDIT: Hmmmmm... and there is a pic on pg.5 where the guy's ear look a little pointy, almost like a half-elf.

Sure, its just one piece of artwork (I haven't looked beyond that page just now), but still, it could lend some relevance to my theory of Pocador elf blood mixed with northmen (there's also a bit of a 'druidic' vibe going on there, and with the face-paint one might also think 'Celtish').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2017 20:06:28
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14555 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2017 :  20:29:51  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
New theory: What if jakandor didn't go to Abeir (and back)?

What if Jakandor is something else - almost like the original Ravenloft, which only consisted of Borovia originally. Now, Borovia was supposedly in GH first, but there is also some lore about it having been in Mystara (are Mystara and Oerth connected in a way similar to Abeir and Toril? Thats conjecture for elsewhere). Maybe Jakandor is a 'proto-demiplane', just starting out. Instead of 'fear' (horror), the emotional state its based on is aggression (War)?

I got this idea when it popped into my head that Jakandor 'moves about', and I realized that it doesn't need to reappear in the same spot it left Toril (so, it could have been over by Osse, and now it could be somewhere between Faerûn, Maztica, and zakhara). The lore we have for it could easily be a century out-of-date... or not. just more 'food for thought'. We (or WotC, if they are reading this LOL) could do this with a few islands, including the other two i stuffed into that map - The Isle of the Ape, and the Isle of Dread (which, come to think of it, has also been in both Mystara and Greyhawk... hmmmmm...)

Instead of cross-setting inconsistencies, maybe we've discovered a new type of lore - 'Glitches in the Matrix'. They could use this with the new aproach to D&D & FR, and even make the inconsistencies part of the canon (overgods 'mucking about', swapping pieces in-and-out, maybe even trading stuff). So every world is like a lego set, and there is a 'side-world' which is like the box of extra bits.

Just another crazy idea, is all.

EDIT:
So if every world has its 'side world', what would be Krynn's? Athas?
That kind of makes sense...

EDIT2:
Now my brain is running away with this idea - "The Plane of 'Junkers' ". LOL
Thats the alternate Prime Material where all these 'spare parts worlds' exist, which are separate (disconnected) from the others in 'regular space'. We have lore that Abeir, Athas, and Mystara are all disconnected like this.

EDIT3:
Okay, I keep forgetting the exact term, but the main three worlds (of 2e) were all considered part of some 'grand triune' or some such, and remained static in regards to each other, within the greater multiverse. What if that was 'ghosted' by the 'junkers' , and there was another, inverted triangle? And they overlapped...

We'd have something like THIS. Now I'm getting all metaphysical, Illuminati-ish LOL

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Apr 2017 20:47:55
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6219 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2017 :  13:40:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I'm thinking that the Knorr being barbarians look more "northern" but that is certainly my real world influences coming to the fore.

-- George Krashos



I had thought that too, until I really started looking at the Jakandor stuff. With a name like Knorrman, it was obviously intended to be a joke somewhat on Norman people. However, they remind me very much of a mix of native American mixed with Viking. Perhaps if we ever learned anything of the "Vanir" people rather than the Aesir people they'd match up. Also, as Markustay mentions, YES the barbarians of Cimmeria would very much fit with the idea.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6219 Posts

Posted - 19 Apr 2017 :  13:45:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

New theory: What if jakandor didn't go to Abeir (and back)?

What if Jakandor is something else - almost like the original Ravenloft, which only consisted of Borovia originally. Now, Borovia was supposedly in GH first, but there is also some lore about it having been in Mystara (are Mystara and Oerth connected in a way similar to Abeir and Toril? Thats conjecture for elsewhere). Maybe Jakandor is a 'proto-demiplane', just starting out. Instead of 'fear' (horror), the emotional state its based on is aggression (War)?

I got this idea when it popped into my head that Jakandor 'moves about', and I realized that it doesn't need to reappear in the same spot it left Toril (so, it could have been over by Osse, and now it could be somewhere between Faerûn, Maztica, and zakhara). The lore we have for it could easily be a century out-of-date... or not. just more 'food for thought'. We (or WotC, if they are reading this LOL) could do this with a few islands, including the other two i stuffed into that map - The Isle of the Ape, and the Isle of Dread (which, come to think of it, has also been in both Mystara and Greyhawk... hmmmmm...)

Instead of cross-setting inconsistencies, maybe we've discovered a new type of lore - 'Glitches in the Matrix'. They could use this with the new aproach to D&D & FR, and even make the inconsistencies part of the canon (overgods 'mucking about', swapping pieces in-and-out, maybe even trading stuff). So every world is like a lego set, and there is a 'side-world' which is like the box of extra bits.

Just another crazy idea, is all.

EDIT:
So if every world has its 'side world', what would be Krynn's? Athas?
That kind of makes sense...

EDIT2:
Now my brain is running away with this idea - "The Plane of 'Junkers' ". LOL
Thats the alternate Prime Material where all these 'spare parts worlds' exist, which are separate (disconnected) from the others in 'regular space'. We have lore that Abeir, Athas, and Mystara are all disconnected like this.

EDIT3:
Okay, I keep forgetting the exact term, but the main three worlds (of 2e) were all considered part of some 'grand triune' or some such, and remained static in regards to each other, within the greater multiverse. What if that was 'ghosted' by the 'junkers' , and there was another, inverted triangle? And they overlapped...

We'd have something like THIS. Now I'm getting all metaphysical, Illuminati-ish LOL



Along those ideas... we know that Toril and Abeir are "out of phase" with one another, such that they occupy the same space and use the same sun. However, we don't know that they spin at the same speed. Even a few minutes slower spin over time could make a huge difference over a hundred years. So, yeah, I could definitely see some things not shifting back and forth correctly. Maybe even that's why Akanul stayed, but PORTIONS of Tymanther didn't.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Bragi
Seeker

USA
20 Posts

Posted - 20 Apr 2017 :  17:34:49  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage  Send Bragi an AOL message  Send Bragi an ICQ Message  Send Bragi a Yahoo! Message Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

New theory: What if jakandor didn't go to Abeir (and back)?
What if Jakandor is something else - almost like the original Ravenloft, which only consisted of Borovia originally.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe Jakandor is a 'proto-demiplane', just starting out. Instead of 'fear' (horror), the emotional state its based on is aggression (War)?



I like this idea and it's not without precedent. The city of Shade existed in the Plane of Shadow and only recently has returned to Toril. An even better example is that of the Star Elves and the realm of Sildëyuir which it itself a part of the Feywild. The Shadowfell, Feywild, and Ethereal planes are all overlaid on top of the prime material plane so it almost makes sense that locations from these planes could occasionally bleed in to Toril.

Jakandor could be imagined as existing on some part of the Feywild analogous to Sildëyuir. Access to Jakandor could also be obtained in a Ravenloft like fashion. Ships sailing in to an area of un-naturally steamy weather suddenly find themselves in Jakandor. Of course, leaving Jakandor would be easier than leaving Ravenloft.

It could also work similar to a bag of holding. A small island surrounded by steam in Toril could be the opening to a much larger island that is Jakandor. This alleviates the issue of trying to fit the exact size of Jakandor on the maps of Toril. The entrance to Jakandor could be anchored to a much smaller island in Toril.


In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6219 Posts

Posted - 21 Apr 2017 :  02:46:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bragi

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

New theory: What if jakandor didn't go to Abeir (and back)?
What if Jakandor is something else - almost like the original Ravenloft, which only consisted of Borovia originally.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Maybe Jakandor is a 'proto-demiplane', just starting out. Instead of 'fear' (horror), the emotional state its based on is aggression (War)?



I like this idea and it's not without precedent. The city of Shade existed in the Plane of Shadow and only recently has returned to Toril. An even better example is that of the Star Elves and the realm of Sildëyuir which it itself a part of the Feywild. The Shadowfell, Feywild, and Ethereal planes are all overlaid on top of the prime material plane so it almost makes sense that locations from these planes could occasionally bleed in to Toril.

Jakandor could be imagined as existing on some part of the Feywild analogous to Sildëyuir. Access to Jakandor could also be obtained in a Ravenloft like fashion. Ships sailing in to an area of un-naturally steamy weather suddenly find themselves in Jakandor. Of course, leaving Jakandor would be easier than leaving Ravenloft.

It could also work similar to a bag of holding. A small island surrounded by steam in Toril could be the opening to a much larger island that is Jakandor. This alleviates the issue of trying to fit the exact size of Jakandor on the maps of Toril. The entrance to Jakandor could be anchored to a much smaller island in Toril.





Hmmm, I had missed Markustay's statement about a proto-demiplane based on war..... So, maybe a sentient demi-plane which purposely puts people together and encourages them to kill one another. With the Knorr worshipping "the War Mother", this gets very interesting indeed. I'm gonna go bake on this idea.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 22 Apr 2017 :  19:06:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've just been study BRJ's Chronology of the Primes, trying to find the links I need between GH and FR for something in another thread, and I noticed this bit:

quote:
647 DR [Year of the Wayward Heart]
1. The Nation of Barovia is founded on an unknown world by the ancestors of Strahd von Zarovich. (1 BY, Ravenloft)


I can see why he went that way with it, since we've had lore saying it was part of at least two different settings history (further proof that 'pieces' get swapped between worlds all the time?), but it made me think about Jakandor as a proto-demiplane again. I also noticed yesterday on a map of the Material plane (either 4e or 5e - I'm not sure which) that they placed the Isle of dread in the Plane of Water. Thats pretty cool, because it lends credence to the theory that a lot of these D&D 'archtype' sites are actually located 'next to', but not 'in', the Prime Material. What if thats how planes are 'born'? I recall a discussion a LONG time ago on the WotC boards about Ravenloft being like this, but now I am seeing the possibility for others. What if extreme emotional states cause planes to 'bud', and we get these little demiplanes - that reach tendrils into other worlds and 'eat' the stuff they find there, adding mass to themselves?

And, either in this thread or a related one, I talked about the 'triune' of "spare-parts worlds" (theoretically, Abeir, Athas, and Mystara... I think) that might exist. I suppose Eberron might be one, considering it also has a 'wonky' connection to the rest of the D&Dverse.

But the point I want to make is, maybe the Overpowers use this natural 'budding' of planes to create these storage-planes (actually, part of the Material plane, but out-of-phase with the Prime... just like the Shadowfell and the Feywild, in fact). They take a budding demiplane and use it as their 'cosmic bag-of-holding'. Hell, maybe its even like a CTCG - they get together every once in awhile and trade places ("I'll give you my mint-condition Maztica for your holographic Borovia - its rare!" )

Even Mystara has some of this 'places moving about' going on in its history (I think their powers ran out of room on the surface, and had to create the Hollow World... so maybe a storage place got its own storage place... sounds like Mystara's Immortals are a bunch of Hoarders ).

And just maybe, these Overpowers ARE trying to repair that First (True) World; some of them, at any rate. Did you ever do a big puzzle with other people? You are all looking through the pieces and have your own separate 'maybe piles' going on, and then you start looking in the other person's stuff and you're like, "I think this one may be mine", and then they start looking at your pile for the same reason... like that.

And their could even be 'doubles' that happen by accident, like how Soth's realm got 'cloned', sort of, to wind up on two worlds at the same time (although the DL people will argue it never left).

Perhaps other forces want to maintain the status quo and not allow the First World to be reborn. The fiends jump to mind. I picture the demons just wanting everything to end, because they all work for Cthon (Elder Elmental Eye, Cthulhu, whatever), whether they know it or not. The devils, however, don't want everything destroyed, nor do they want it all 'fixed' - they make out best if everything continues to remain the way it is now (a shattered universe that they can 'divide and conquer').

This would also all relate back to the purpose of the Illithids, and their war with the Gith (the 'Race of Destiny'?), but now I'm going really far afield, so I'll just stop now.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Apr 2017 19:09:47
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