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sleyvas
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Posted - 17 Mar 2017 :  15:29:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I've liked Jakandor ever since I was introduced to it by Markustay's comments. Its backstory with a little modification on dates absolutely fits the spellplague/sundering scenario, and it would absolutely fit the land right off the east coast of Katashaka that someone labeled tabaxiland if the map were simply rotated 135 degrees clockwise (which would of course mean rotating the compass on the map). The Charonti people absolutely could be related to the human tribes that were the creator races, or they could simply be an imported people from elsewhere (in fact, their history states "The time came when our airships and enchanted portals carried us beyond the shores of our island home").

Just to do the basic math of time to see where things would fall, and how to adjust, gonna throw out some dates from that source

from page 7 of Jakandor, Isle of destiny

The first expedition into other lands was launched under the rule of Ihnkaheser XXIII in the year 4335 of the Hramnethes Dynasty.

from page 8 of Jakandor, Isle of destiny (note, around the world not being limited to their known world)

The Wasting Plague In the year 5350 the world ended. Borne on the magic of any spell or enchantment, the Wasting Plague rocketed around the world like chain lightning. Temples linked by magic spread the plague to every corner of Jakandor. Magical communications sent to warn travelers served only to propel the plague farther and wider. Healing spells and protective magic only fueled the disease. The plazas and streets were piled with bodies.

from page 9 of Jakandor, Isle of destiny

The Magelords For the next five thousand years no building was raised, and no ruler returned to lead us again to wisdom. In the countryside people destroyed all magical artifacts and slew spellcasters on sight in an effort to keep the plague at bay, while ambitious power seekers scoured the ruins of our cities and temples for the magic that would give them the power to rule their brothers.

Then it goes on to indicate how "magelords" established themselves, and the nextsection details the royal house reestablishing themselves during this 5 thousand years, and the royal house and magelords being at odds then they unite.

So at least according to this, the Hramnethes Dynasty was established roughly 10,350 years ago if we take that 5000 years entry literally. If we say that at the time of this published work that we're talking about say 1370 DR to 1490 DR, this this would put this Hramnethes Dynasty starting around ~ -9000 DR to -8850 DR. This would put them using their portals and airships to leave the isle of Jakandor ~ -4665 DR to -4515 DR. This would put the wasting plague being roughly somewhere around ~ -3650 DR to -3500 DR.

However, lets look at the GHotR, and the Imaskari had a "devastating plague" that couldn't be cured in the temples around -4370 DR. What if somehow this "wasting plague" and the plague the Imaskari were inflicted with were related (hmmm, could those blasted elves have performed some high magic ritual aimed at "human" magical methods, but the Imaskari had learned enough about fey or fiendish magic that they adjusted and survived after their initial deaths, but the Charonti didn't know how to?). If we did that, then the 5000 years mentioned previously during the magelord time becomes 5720 to 5870 years in span. That would reset the times to

Hramnethes Dynasty starting around ~ -9720 DR
leaving the isle of Jakandor ~ -5385 DR
Wasting Plague -4370 DR

Of course, linking the two plagues isn't necessary, since it would be all the way on the other side of the world. I did that math to see if the dates helped line up with anything else, but nothing jumps out at me other than the rise of Calimshan, and not sure I'd want to link Jakandor and Calimshan. Also, I note the shape of Jakandor, but I can't necessarily compare the size of Jakandor to the island off Katashaka's east coast.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Markustay
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Posted - 17 Mar 2017 :  21:39:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I used it as the largest and most eastern island of the chain of islands that lead-off (to the east) from Zakhara. A good fit size-wise, it being an island, and the climate, but the cultures, not so much (the necros YES, because that are similar to the necro culture on Sahu {The Isle of the Necromancer-Kings} which is located on the other side of Zakhara, which was detailed in The Complete Book of Necromancers.) I had a name for that whole island chain, but I no longer have a copy of that map.

But now I'm thinking somewhwere south and a bit east of Chult (so in the same basic vicinity of the other placement, but much closer to Faerūn). I picture it as one of sevral islands in a cluster around Chult, which would include returned Abeir (which also works well in a tropical climate, despite the Frigid mountain range in the north - think Himalayas). However, in both locations it woud still work better if the map were 'mirrored', east-to-west (latitudinally), because I just feel the Norse-like cutlure is on the wrong side (unless we shunted it over near Maztica, which would probably be a near-perfect fit, but then I feel no-one would ever really use it).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Mar 2017 21:40:44
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Markustay
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Posted - 17 Mar 2017 :  22:26:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hadn't really read your post (), so I thought you meant 'physically' placing it. I had never even considered connecting the history (aside from little thought about connecting it to Sahu somehow). I really like the idea of linking the plague(s). Good loring! (can I copyright that word? ).

I'll see what I can do in the way of a 'quick and dirty' hypothesis, geographically. The easiest explanation would be that it went bye-bye at some point (to Abeir), and came back during the Spellplague. Maybe the last of their archmages managed to shift it there, or perhaps their 'gods'. That may be why they though the rest of the world 'died' - all the familiar landmasses were gone (and they no longer had the means to explore in other directions). 'About a century ago' sounds about right for the arrival of the Knorr to Jakandor, so they probably got caught-up int the same event (Spellplague?) that moved the island to Toril, thus losing their homeland as well.

That would probably work best, because their culture is unfamilar. I had thought they were like Northmen, and do have some similarities, but they are 'darker', more Celtic/Conan-like. Perhaps a branch of of my theoretical 'Cortae' culture that went to Abeir many millennia ago? They are also similar to the Abber Nomads of RL, which I also believe originated on Abeir.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 17 Mar 2017 22:30:50
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Markustay
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Posted - 17 Mar 2017 :  23:58:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Giving it a little more thought - it goes to Abeir back in the distant past, perhaps even when the plague struck. The Charonti go with it, and there they stay for thousands of years.

The Spellplague hits, and the Knorr get caught in a terrible storm, and wind-up in Abeir. They sail until the reach Jakandor. End of 3e era.

A century (or so) later the (re)Sundering occurs, and everything is reset - Jakandor 'comes home', with both cultures on it (beginning of 5e era).

That would probably be the best timeline, but we'd still have to place the Knorr - possibly natives of Anchoromé?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2017 06:08:42
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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Mar 2017 :  04:00:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sized correctly

I figure I'd play around with my new position/look for Abeir as well.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 18 Mar 2017 :  04:20:23  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You can also link this to Darkturret, in Gontal. The place got pushed aside from time and space during the Spellplague, and became connected to different places and times since then. A flare of Spellplague could hit any time and any location in Abeir and Toril from Darkturret, even in a time after the Second Sundering (thanks to Darkturret being outside time and space, so, not under Ao's domain anymore).

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Darkturret

BTW, thanks, Markustay!! I was searching for a map like that —has a location for both, Laerakond and Maztica— since I came here to Candlekeep xD

However... what's that large peninsula that is located in the Sword Coast north in your map?

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 18 Mar 2017 04:27:09
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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Mar 2017 :  06:30:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thats the Dragon's Head peninsula, which was well-detailed in Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II, and sticks out of Faerūn between Amn and Tethyr (although ostensibly part of Tethyr). Its part of the Lands of Intrigue, well south of The eastern Heartlands and The North.

I'm growing quite fond of that particular placement for Abeir. I liked some of my others as well, but this one doesn't require swapping it for something else, and it makes all those islnads there more 'useful' to a DM (it could be its own little campaign area, running trade bewteen Faerūn and Zakhara).

With Jakandor there, it makes a trip to Maztica much easier, because you can island-hop, although in Jakandor you have to be pretty careful with both sets of natives. I meant to throw the Isle of Dread and maybe even the Isle of the Ape on there as well, just for fun. If FR's going to be THE D&D setting from now on, nosense wasting all those cool locales.

I always pictured the Charonti coming from the northern Zakhara (jungle) region - remnants of their Ruined Kingdoms (which Sahu was also part of). But now I'm seeing them as perhaps some high-tech civilization that had arisen in Maztica ("The Ancients"). The flying ships part of their history would link-up well with the Netherese, but thats going too far back, even for Netheril; though we have at least two other nations in that region that focus on airships and 'other' varieties of air travel ('The Flying Hunt' of Nimbral). Lantan might even have some gnomish SJ Sidewheelers.

All we'd have to do is borrow OD&D/Mystara's Top Ballista and we could do an entire 'air war' thing down there (and lets not forget I've already shared my idea for pteradon-riders out of Chult, a'la the Kushites of the Conan stories). Of couse, I don't think the dragons of Laerakond (Returned Abeir) would be too happy about all that racket in THEIR skies. All we'd need is the Shou to show up with their own version of the Space-battleship Yamato.

Mod edit: Fixed the coding -- the wrong bracket was used.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2017 15:06:41
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 18 Mar 2017 :  07:25:29  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can picture Gauwer not amused, indeed.

About the Dragon Head, is strange that no official map has showed it. Do you a have a complete version of the map, perchance? (it seems cropped in the north).

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...
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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Mar 2017 :  15:15:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
NO official map? More like every official map!
I think you are picturing it too far north - everything on that map (which IS an official map, BTW, from the FRIA - I just added Jakandor and Abeir) is BELOW the 5e maps of the Realms.

It got a lot smaller (as did everything) on the 3e maps, but it was still there. Its even on that wretched 4e map of Faerūn.

On THIS MAP you can see it, straight north from Chult, and SE of The Moonshaes. Thats the 3e map someone scanned.


*Also, the world map in the FRIA tends to distort smaller features, so it also may be looking a bit bigger on that map than it actually is.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2017 16:03:01
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 18 Mar 2017 :  15:44:27  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Also, the world map in the FRIA tends to distort smaller features, so it also may be looking a bit bigger on that map than it actually is).



Yeah, I guess this is what is happening. Comparing it with other maps, is bigger in that one.

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 18 Mar 2017 15:47:34
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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Mar 2017 :  16:04:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heres another map from the FRIA - one with a close-up of the coast -

West Coast of Faerūn

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
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Posted - 18 Mar 2017 :  18:40:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This one is a little better - more detail, and I swapped-in the finer version from above -

More Detailed version of 5e FR w/Abeir AND Jakandor (and if you're not a fan of Jakandor, just ignore it).

Note I colored the two large islands/subcontinents to match the FRIA map better. The Dragon's Head peninsula also looks a lot more normal now.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2017 18:41:41
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Zeromaru X
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Posted - 18 Mar 2017 :  19:21:11  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to steal this map. I don't knew about Jakandor, but don't mind about it, either (can be useful). Since the Sundering 2.0 I was planing to use Laerakond like a personal sandbox, and this map is perfect for that.

I've noted, however, that the map of Laerakond is kinda different from your earlier one or the canon one (the shape). No problemo with that either, but I noticed the change.

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 18 Mar 2017 19:23:47
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Markustay
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Posted - 19 Mar 2017 :  01:01:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wanted to make it somewhat more realistic - the 'donut' shaped continent/island is an over-used trope, IMO, so I tweaked it a little.

The original map was even worse then the 4e FR one, which I was told by 'official sources' was meant to be more suggestive, than definitive. An 'abstract' version of a real map, I believe was the word used (which may or may not have just been an excuse, because the 4e map was so ugly and inaccurate).

So you might ask, how could the only version of a map be an 'abstracted' version? (referring to the Returned Abeir map) Other than the fact it was done in the same style, of course? Because Ed said as much - that the map that appeared in the 4e FRCG was 'off' from what he visualized (I can't recall if he said he drew a rough map or not). For example, he said the eastern 'arm' was supposed to be 'fatter', with far more unexplored wilderness. Thats part of the reason why I made that side fatter (that, plus I like the adventuring opportunities a narrow channel with a 'pinch point' somewhere around the middle affords).

So now the shape is somewhat more 'natural' looking (the inlet/central bay also doesn't extend as far north). And I didn't lose anything, really - it is just 'squished' on the right side now.

Thus, this is just another way of ME interpreting the 'stylized' 4e map. I'm pretty sure no-one else ever did one, so its all good. The ports there make more sense now, since they are all equally (pretty much) reachable, and the fact that they have trade with both Faerūn and Zakhara also means all ports would be busy (part of world building is understanding things have to exist for a reason - one of the things I did for another setting not too long ago was reorganize locales, because there were things like "a trade-hub city" sitting on the edge of the map, with no-one to trade with, and nothing worth trading. I've found since I've started doing this that a lot of perfectly intelligent and talented people don't understand that just because something is 'fantasy' doesn't mean it doesn't have to have sound logic behind it.

And this is why I constantly tweak maps, and not just The Realms; a map is more than just a picture of terrain - it needs to pull you in and make you feel like its a living, breathing biosphere. That there are people and other things living their entire lives there. Thats the difference between a map you walk past at a convention, and one that makes you stop dead in your tracks and ask questions. Good maps make you want to know more.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Mar 2017 01:06:30
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sleyvas
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Posted - 23 Mar 2017 :  02:06:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the response Markustay. Yes, I remember when I first read it that I thought two things

A) there should be a link to the necromancer kings of the isle of Sahu.
B) The look of the Charonti LOOKS very Thayan, and their focus on Necromantic magic is also very Thayan like. I was actually playing with the idea that the red wizards that I have getting transferred to Abeir actually have a small group of themselves that travel into the past while on Abeir through essentially something that looks like a stargate. They themselves become the progenitors of the Charonti. I'm not sure if I like it, but it could prove interesting if they ever actually visit Jakandor.

I was also playing with the whole "who are the Knorr" and "where are they from". From their history, they were at war with another empire. I was also thinking the Northmen original culture. I was also thinking somewhere near Anchorome... possibly relatives of the Metahel which are stranded in the Pasocada Basin (i.e. City of Gold region). So, I'm thinking Aurune, and the island to the west of Anchorome. Yes, the exact same idea of they transferred to Abeir a century ago, arrived in Jakandor (which was already in Abeir from centuries ago) and then Jakandor returns to Toril.

I'm still leaning toward that unnamed island (the one labeled "tabaxiland"). I would also note that the reorientation of "North" has something to do with the transfer between worlds. I also note that the story of the Tabaxi going to Chult mentions people learning of "matumbe" which sounds like magic.... and maybe the wasting plague also made the lack of arcane knowledge throughout Katashaka, Maztica, and this region.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 23 Mar 2017 :  15:59:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't like the idea that Jakandor was on Abeir, eh?

Abeir didn't have 'The Weave', or, at least, magic didn't work the same way.

But what if the Shadow Weave extended there? Or better yet, what if it STARTED there? What if the 'two sides of the same coin' thing extended all the way to the planets themselves? One the 'positive', the other the 'negative' - two poles of magic. Both worlds could use both - Shadow & Arcane magic - but each was more condusive to using one type over the other.

Maybe Abeir has been more prone to necromantic magics all along.

Also fairly easy to connect the Charonti to the Thayans, in a round-about fashion. I've already connected the Charonti to Sahu (a pretty simple conclusion to draw), and say both are 'survivor states' of the Ruined Kingdoms of Zakhara. But what if the Ruined Kingdoms themselves were survivor states of Imaskar? Iamskari history goes back over 11K years, but Al-Qadim's official history only goes back a thousand (although an entry in the GHotR puts its history into it's own 'prehistory' period, by connecting it to The Realms).

We KNOW Imaskar had far-flung 'colonies' (outposts?) all over the place, many of which canonically became survivor states after Imaskar itself fell (and there are over a dozen - perhaps even more than 20). I've also threorized in the old (now sadly defunct) Utter East Thread/project over on the WotC boards that Imaskar had also settled the Utter East (and the Golden Waters region), in much the same fashion that Rome had non-Roman provinces all over the place. We did that because I need to weave some lore together concerning the Bloodforges, and also a Keep that was in the region (from the video game).

So if Imaskar had pushed into the Utter east like I think, and had used their Mulan slaves mostly to do so, that would give us a 'Thay-like' race on the northern border of Zakahara. Now, they may have either pushed into those jungles while still be part of Imaskar, or may have done so after Imaskar fell, to escape their former masters (since the further-away outposts would still be intact, just in disarray after the empire fell).

So Imaskar settles the Utter East, and its Mulhorandi slaves settle into northern Zakahara, creating the Fallen Kingdoms (perhaps with help from Mir fleeing west from the fall of Tampat Larang, which involved the First Emperor of Shou-Lung, and as we know, Tan Chin was part of Anok-Imaskar before creating Shou Lung), and then those kingdoms fell (we had a 3000 year period between the fall of Imaskar and the beginnings of "the recorded known histories' of Zakhara), but survivors had settled other regions (as all empires do), which probably included Sahu and may have included Jakandor.

What if there was a 'mini Sundering' during the Godwar in Imaskar? We had 'magical chaos' during the ToT, which was a similar event (and perhaps even less disruptive, at least n a localized level). Perhaps Imaskar itself had a major colony on a far-off island, at the end of the Farsahalla(?) Archipeligo. A colony that had a large number of their Mulan slaves. Maybe the island got shunted into Abeir to protect back then (from Pharonic wrath), and the Mulan slaves were able to rise against their masters, once their masters no longer had the backing of their empire (or it could have just been a natural occurrence - the massive number of slaves simply racial absorbing the smaller number of 'overseers', over the course of time).


This all me just "throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks" 9for you). As for me, I actually see the Charonti as being very Mesoamerican, so i would connect them to Maztica instead (saying Maztica and its kingdoms were 'survivor states' of the Jakandor empire). Since I presented the psuedo-lore in 'buffet style', you pick & choose what you like and discard the rest (or ignore it al, if you prefer). For example, going with what I just said, what if Jakandor was an Imaskari colony , and when Imaskar fell they themselves rose to become an empire, settling large swaths of Maztica. Then something happens (like the island getting moved to Abeir, or even Ravenloft (), perhaps during the chaos that ensued when Karsus did his thing and The Weave 'hiccuped'), and the Jakandor empire in turn collapses (because the capitol 'went missing'), leaving the Maztican colonies to rise into kingdoms themselves (until the arrival of the ebil Euro... ummm... Farūnians).

Now, they could have run into the Knorr in Abeir (or even in RL, if that floats your boat - they ARE very similar to the Abber Nomads of the Nightmare Lands), OR, the Knorr could have come from Anchorōmé, as you ascertain (and I was with you on that one, until maybe yesterday, because yet-another project I've taken under my wing). If they Knorr came from Anchorōmé, then they would be part of the same proto-group that spawned FR's Northmen. They are 'darker' (more like Robert Howard's Cimmerians, than his Vanaheim/Asgard), so we could theorize a certain admixture of 'native' blood (whatever culture exists over on that continent) and the original proto-Northmen (Illu-Pozi?)

Going a step further, and going somewhat outside this thread's intent, our 'Northemn group' may have come for the island chain that Ed called Anchorōmé, which is NOT 'the big continent' - according to Ed, the continent itself was NOT named, and somewhat further west. I really need to do a mock-up map of how I picture Ed's version of that region one of these days (he went into great detail on the old Realm L-list about those island chains - there were several, include a kingdom or three).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Mar 2017 16:42:06
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 23 Mar 2017 :  16:10:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If the Shadow Weave is the dark spaces within the Weave, then it's hard to imagine the former existing without the latter. Of course, since the nature of the Shadow Weave changed every single time it was described, arguments could be made either way.

Ye gods, that was such a poorly considered and even more poorly implemented idea. It's pretty bad when a WotC designer says that the most recent source material is incorrect about something.

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Markustay
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Posted - 23 Mar 2017 :  17:10:14  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If the Shadow Weave is the dark spaces within the Weave, then it's hard to imagine the former existing without the latter. Of course, since the nature of the Shadow Weave changed every single time it was described, arguments could be made either way.

Ye gods, that was such a poorly considered and even more poorly implemented idea. It's pretty bad when a WotC designer says that the most recent source material is incorrect about something.
Well, that's why I put it the way I did - "two sides of the same coin". We have Selūne/Shar, and we have Weave/Shadoweave, and we have Toril/Abeir... so my thinking now is that they aren't truly separate things at all - they have always been 'two sides of the same coin', and just like you could still use shadow-magic on Toril, you'd have been able to use regular magic on Abeir - you'd just be 'pulling from the other side', as it were.

So Abeir and Toril aren't two separate planets in the usual sense - its more like the same planet in two different quantum realities. My thinking here is that moving between Abeir & Toril should be no different than moving to the astral, ethereal, Shadow, etc - you're still on the same world, your just in a different 'echo' of it. Hell, now that I've just said that, it almost makes sense to say Abeir has been in the Plane of Shadows all along (encased in its own protective sphere).

Thus, what I said doesn't negate what we know of the Shadow Weave; in fact, it builds upon it. The Shadoweave (can we just using this shorter version?) has ALWAYS existed - its the 'spaces between the Weave'. That means they were always there. The Shadoweave is nothing new, its just that its power wasn't as accessible before, for whatever reason. Something changed that. I don't think it was the ToT, I think that event merely strengthened it mightily (Shar finally made overt moves and knowledge of it was no longer secret). I would hazard to guess she first began pulling her half back into Toril when the Weave fell during Karsus' Folly.

And Mytryl/Mystra should have always had access to both halves, since she IS both halves. Which means the Weave should have extended into Abeir (and canonically, it would have to, since it extends into the entirety of Realmspace, and Abeir is definitely 'in' Realmspace).

So it goes like this - Daddy Ao pulls the two catfighting sisters apart (literally) and creates Abeir & Toril. 'Mystryl' is an amalgam of the two - a hybrid of both halves - and is given jurisdiction over the magic of both halves (much to Shar's chagrin). It's very similar to how Tyche was split into Tymora and Beshaba... hmmmm... come to think of it... VERY similar...

But in reverse...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Mar 2017 22:21:36
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 23 Mar 2017 :  20:14:32  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Don't like the idea that Jakandor was on Abeir, eh?

Abeir didn't have 'The Weave', or, at least, magic didn't work the same way.

But what if the Shadow Weave extended there? Or better yet, what if it STARTED there? What if the 'two sides of the same coin' thing extended all the way to the planets themselves? One the 'positive', the other the 'negative' - two poles of magic. Both worlds could use both - Shadow & Arcane magic - but each was more condusive to using one type over the other.

Maybe Abeir has been more prone to necromantic magics all along.

Also fairly easy to connect the Charonti to the Thayans, in a round-about fashion. I've already connected the Charonti to Sahu (a pretty simple conclusion to draw), and say both are 'survivor states' of the Ruined Kingdoms of Zakhara. But what if the Ruined Kingdoms themselves were survivor states of Imaskar? Iamskari history goes back over 11K years, but Al-Qadim's official history only goes back a thousand (although an entry in the GHotR puts its history into it's own 'prehistory' period, by connecting it to The Realms).

We KNOW Imaskar had far-flung 'colonies' (outposts?) all over the place, many of which canonically became survivor states after Imaskar itself fell (and there are over a dozen - perhaps even more than 20). I've also threorized in the old (now sadly defunct) Utter East Thread/project over on the WotC boards that Imaskar had also settled the Utter East (and the Golden Waters region), in much the same fashion that Rome had non-Roman provinces all over the place. We did that because I need to weave some lore together concerning the Bloodforges, and also a Keep that was in the region (from the video game).

So if Imaskar had pushed into the Utter east like I think, and had used their Mulan slaves mostly to do so, that would give us a 'Thay-like' race on the northern border of Zakahara. Now, they may have either pushed into those jungles while still be part of Imaskar, or may have done so after Imaskar fell, to escape their former masters (since the further-away outposts would still be intact, just in disarray after the empire fell).

So Imaskar settles the Utter East, and its Mulhorandi slaves settle into northern Zakahara, creating the Fallen Kingdoms (perhaps with help from Mir fleeing west from the fall of Tampat Larang, which involved the First Emperor of Shou-Lung, and as we know, Tan Chin was part of Anok-Imaskar before creating Shou Lung), and then those kingdoms fell (we had a 3000 year period between the fall of Imaskar and the beginnings of "the recorded known histories' of Zakhara), but survivors had settled other regions (as all empires do), which probably included Sahu and may have included Jakandor.

What if there was a 'mini Sundering' during the Godwar in Imaskar? We had 'magical chaos' during the ToT, which was a similar event (and perhaps even less disruptive, at least n a localized level). Perhaps Imaskar itself had a major colony on a far-off island, at the end of the Farsahalla(?) Archipeligo. A colony that had a large number of their Mulan slaves. Maybe the island got shunted into Abeir to protect back then (from Pharonic wrath), and the Mulan slaves were able to rise against their masters, once their masters no longer had the backing of their empire (or it could have just been a natural occurrence - the massive number of slaves simply racial absorbing the smaller number of 'overseers', over the course of time).


This all me just "throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks" 9for you). As for me, I actually see the Charonti as being very Mesoamerican, so i would connect them to Maztica instead (saying Maztica and its kingdoms were 'survivor states' of the Jakandor empire). Since I presented the psuedo-lore in 'buffet style', you pick & choose what you like and discard the rest (or ignore it al, if you prefer). For example, going with what I just said, what if Jakandor was an Imaskari colony , and when Imaskar fell they themselves rose to become an empire, settling large swaths of Maztica. Then something happens (like the island getting moved to Abeir, or even Ravenloft (), perhaps during the chaos that ensued when Karsus did his thing and The Weave 'hiccuped'), and the Jakandor empire in turn collapses (because the capitol 'went missing'), leaving the Maztican colonies to rise into kingdoms themselves (until the arrival of the ebil Euro... ummm... Farūnians).

Now, they could have run into the Knorr in Abeir (or even in RL, if that floats your boat - they ARE very similar to the Abber Nomads of the Nightmare Lands), OR, the Knorr could have come from Anchorōmé, as you ascertain (and I was with you on that one, until maybe yesterday, because yet-another project I've taken under my wing). If they Knorr came from Anchorōmé, then they would be part of the same proto-group that spawned FR's Northmen. They are 'darker' (more like Robert Howard's Cimmerians, than his Vanaheim/Asgard), so we could theorize a certain admixture of 'native' blood (whatever culture exists over on that continent) and the original proto-Northmen (Illu-Pozi?)

Going a step further, and going somewhat outside this thread's intent, our 'Northemn group' may have come for the island chain that Ed called Anchorōmé, which is NOT 'the big continent' - according to Ed, the continent itself was NOT named, and somewhat further west. I really need to do a mock-up map of how I picture Ed's version of that region one of these days (he went into great detail on the old Realm L-list about those island chains - there were several, include a kingdom or three).



No, I'm firmly of the belief that Jakandor was in Abeir, probably ever since the wasting plague. In fact, if we take a step back and consider the description of "the wasting plague", the effects seem very similar to the spellplague. Spellcasters are the center point of the "plague", and whenever they use magic it has a tendency to go awry and "infect" the person. Afterwards, for over five centuries, there are these areas of "plagueland".

The differences here to note are that if we do take this assumption that they were in Abeir since the wasting plague, there was this rise of "magelords" in Charonti history. Abeir is supposed to be without a bunch of wizards. So, either these magelords were wielding magic via some other means (warlocks? sorcerers? binders? shadow weave? Shadow Magic?), or the rumors about arcane magic not working in Abeir become incorrect (possibly in localized areas).

Anyway, I'm of the mind that Jakandor was in Abeir. I surmise the Knorr came from Toril to Abeir at the start of the spellplague. I then surmise that Jakandor has come from Abeir to Toril at the end of the sundering, replacing an island of similar shape that was previously labeled "tabaxiland" on another map.

In fact, it could be interesting if the whole "tabaxiland" / Jakandor thing is something where only portions of Jakandor transferred to Abeir long ago, merging with an island of similar shape and leaving some of their culture behind in "tabaxiland". That could give some leeway for using the culture itself in both worlds following the "wasting plague".

I then surmise that

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5139 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2017 :  20:24:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If the Shadow Weave is the dark spaces within the Weave, then it's hard to imagine the former existing without the latter. Of course, since the nature of the Shadow Weave changed every single time it was described, arguments could be made either way.

Ye gods, that was such a poorly considered and even more poorly implemented idea. It's pretty bad when a WotC designer says that the most recent source material is incorrect about something.
Well, thats why I put it the way I did - "two sides of the same coin". We have Selūne/Shar, and we have Weave/Shadoweave, and we have Toril/Abeir... so my thinking now is that they aren't truly separate things at all - they have always been 'two sides of the same coin', and just like you could still use shadow-magic on Toril, you'd have been able to use regular magic on Abeir - you'd just be 'pulling from the other side', as it were.

So Abeir and Toril aren't two separate planets in the usual sense - its more like the same planet in two different quantum realities. My thinking here is that moving between Abeir & Toril should be no different than moving to the astral, ethereal, Shadow, etc - you're still on the same world, your just in a different 'echo' of it. Hell, now that I've just said that, it almost makes sense to say Abeir has been in the Plane of Shadows all along (encased in its own protective sphere).

Thus, what I said doesn't negate what we know of the Shadow Weave; in fact, it builds upon it. The Shadoweave (can we just using this shorter version?) has ALWAYS existed - its the 'spaces between the Weave'. That means they were always there. The Sadoweave is nothing new, its just that its power wasn't as accessible before, for whatever reason. Something changed that. I don't think it was the ToT, I think that event merely strengthened it mightily (Shar finally made overt moves and knowledge of it was no longer secret). I would hazard to guess she first began pulling her half back into Toril when the Weave fell during Karsus' Folly.

And Mytryl/Mytsra should have always had access to both halves, since she IS both halves. Which means the Weave should have extended into Abeir (and canonically, it would have to, since it extends into the entirety of Realmspace, and Abeir is definitely 'in' Realmspace).

So it goes like this - Daddy Ao pulls the two catfighting sisters apart (literally) and creates Abeir & Toril. 'Mystryl' is an amalgam of the two - a hybrid of both halves - and is given jurisdiction over the magc of both halves (much to Shar's chagrin). It's very similar to how Tyche was split into Tymora and Beshaba... hmmmm... come to think of it... VERY similar...

But in reverse...



And in theory, perhaps the shadow weave was open to anyone in Abeir, but "weavecasting" required some special devotion / feat. Thus, there may have been shadow weave based arcanists in Abeir (such as the Charonti). If I were to take that assertion, it could explain why those who "have knowledge" of Abeir say that the weave isn't there in canon lore. Of course, I put a slightly different spin on it for following the spellplague (i.e. dweomerheart was tied to Abeir instead of Toril), and the exact effects of that I've yet to work out, other than weave casting in Abeir wasn't an issue during the spellplague year except in certain areas.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13273 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2017 :  22:48:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Two things - I hadn't noticed before the similarities of some of Faerūn's plagues, and the Spellplague. We've had a plethora of these 'plagues' throughout Toril's history - ones that are not only magically resistant, but seem to specifically target Mages. Could this be some sort of hint within the lore that there was some event at that time that caused 'magical destabilization'? Ed has always held that The Weave (magic) = 'Life', so if The Weave was damaged from time to time - and its the 'lifeforce' of Toril itself (what I refer to as 'the Gaea') - then it is possible this manifested as some sort of 'Weave sickness' amongst mortals.

Secondly, if Abeir IS in Realmspace (and everything says it is), and the Weave extends to 'all of Realmspace' (and unless something changed, that was also always true), then Abeir had to be within the sphere of influence of The Weave, even if tapping into it was blocked somehow. It could be something along the lines of the way magic works in the Outlands - different 'levels' of magic permeate different 'rings' at different strengths (so maybe whatever pocket-plane Abeir was shoved into didn't have 'full access' to the Weave/Arcane magic, which is why I'm starting to think the Shadoworld makes the most sense). Thus, each 'echo' of The Realms would have slightly different 'physics' in regards to how magic works there (like the astral, ethereal, Shadow, Feywild, etc).

Its funny, because I am always relating magic to RW science - what if every dimension (transitive plane?) is one of these 'echos', and each it tuned to different type of magic? Quantum theorists say that different planes affect others at different levels of power (hence 'the strong force' and 'the weak force', etc), so maybe maybe that's how it works in magic and the planes as well? Some are just more conducive to certain 'energies'.

And Abeir also didn't have 'gods', and yet, it had Primordials, which ARE 'gods', just a different kind. What it didn't have is deities... and yet we know the elemental lords were at least considered deities at one point. So the rules are not as 'written in stone' as it may seem. Perhaps 'doing magic' on Abeir required paying lip-service to primordials, who were running the show, so it was all sort-of like clerical magic? And we've been suspecting that both Shar and Selūne are actually primordials (or at least were). Maybe that is one way Abeirrans overcame 'the ban' - by paying lip-service to Shar, she shared with them the secret of the Shadow weave, and they were able to use that. The main Charonti deity was known as Thanotep - Thano? That means 'death' - it may have been an alias of Shar. On the other hand, looking at that, I would definitely place that with the Mulan, not the Mazticans, so a 'Thayan connection' may exist after all.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13273 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2017 :  22:58:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmmm... reading further into their religion -they were devout to this deity, and very powerful magically, and then came this 'great disaster' (the plague), and they lost most of their power.

It could be they revered Shar before going to Abeir, and then 'lost contact' with her when that plague struck, and thats when they gave up religion. Then again, if thats what happened, then there really isn't even a reason for bringing Shar into this (except we still need 'death magic', which works better with the Shadoweave).

Unless... Charonti death-magic has nothing to do with necromancy - there IS nothing evil about it. Maybe what they are doing is more along the lines of creating a 'flesh golem', so it could be more elemental - and therefor tied to primoridals - than traditional zombie-making magics. They're just using corpses as a ready-made vessel for elemental spirits. And this doesn't mean we'd have to lose any Thayan or Sahu connections - they could have used traditional necromantic magic back wile they were in Faerūn, and then switched after the disaster (which landed them in Abeir).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Mar 2017 22:59:26
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5139 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2017 :  03:33:22  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Two things - I hadn't noticed before the similarities of some of Faerūn's plagues, and the Spellplague. We've had a plethora of these 'plagues' throughout Toril's history - ones that are not only magically resistant, but seem to specifically target Mages. Could this be some sort of hint within the lore that there was some event at that time that caused 'magical destabilization'? Ed has always held that The Weave (magic) = 'Life', so if The Weave was damaged from time to time - and its the 'lifeforce' of Toril itself (what I refer to as 'the Gaea') - then it is possible this manifested as some sort of 'Weave sickness' amongst mortals.

Secondly, if Abeir IS in Realmspace (and everything says it is), and the Weave extends to 'all of Realmspace' (and unless something changed, that was also always true), then Abeir had to be within the sphere of influence of The Weave, even if tapping into it was blocked somehow. It could be something along the lines of the way magic works in the Outlands - different 'levels' of magic permeate different 'rings' at different strengths (so maybe whatever pocket-plane Abeir was shoved into didn't have 'full access' to the Weave/Arcane magic, which is why I'm starting to think the Shadoworld makes the most sense). Thus, each 'echo' of The Realms would have slightly different 'physics' in regards to how magic works there (like the astral, ethereal, Shadow, Feywild, etc).

Its funny, because I am always relating magic to RW science - what if every dimension (transitive plane?) is one of these 'echos', and each it tuned to different type of magic? Quantum theorists say that different planes affect others at different levels of power (hence 'the strong force' and 'the weak force', etc), so maybe maybe that's how it works in magic and the planes as well? Some are just more conducive to certain 'energies'.

And Abeir also didn't have 'gods', and yet, it had Primordials, which ARE 'gods', just a different kind. What it didn't have is deities... and yet we know the elemental lords were at least considered deities at one point. So the rules are not as 'written in stone' as it may seem. Perhaps 'doing magic' on Abeir required paying lip-service to primordials, who were running the show, so it was all sort-of like clerical magic? And we've been suspecting that both Shar and Selūne are actually primordials (or at least were). Maybe that is one way Abeirrans overcame 'the ban' - by paying lip-service to Shar, she shared with them the secret of the Shadow weave, and they were able to use that. The main Charonti deity was known as Thanotep - Thano? That means 'death' - it may have been an alias of Shar. On the other hand, looking at that, I would definitely place that with the Mulan, not the Mazticans, so a 'Thayan connection' may exist after all.




I would almost say it would be interesting to have Hel be the first death "entity" of the realms. We already have "the Fenris Wolf" in the form of Kezef the Chaos Hound, and we have Jormungand (sp?) in the form of the World Serpent, and we have Nidhogg in the form of Dendar the Night Serpent. Given her white and dark sides, she absolutely could fit as some kind of spawn of the Shar/Selune entity. If Loki were to still be Hel's father, that would make Shar/Selune the equivalent of Angrboda (or "she who offers sorrow" in Norse). Not saying we should make that equation, just giving some parallels.

Anyway, what got me thinking about it was the idea that the Charonti were worshipping a male aspect of Hel while on Abeir (because if "she" has a light and dark side, why not both sexes... and given Loki's ability to change from male to female).

Along these same lines, if we consider the idea that Loki was confined, with a snake dripping venom on him, and his other wife Sigyn catching said venom... but when she misses a drop earthquakes happen. This sounds like Loki could be an imprisoned primordial from the early days (I will note he also has some link to fire).

And just reading about Loki's father Farbauti says his myth is that he is lightning (Farbauti) which strikes leaves (Laufey) to produce wildfire (Loki). I have always considered tying Talos to the Norse pantheon, and actually this could be an interesting way of doing it. EDIT: even more interesting, Farbauti is also noted as being Bergelmir, or the only giant remaining after the flood of blood from Ymir's death. So, instead of Talos being involved, Loki might either be a brother of Annam or son of Annam (and Annam is Bergelmir/Farbauti). Laufey/Nal appears to be a primordial/goddess with ties to plants (her name means either leaves or pine needles). So, a sick, twisted part of me is thinking Laufey equals Moander. Another sick twisted part of me is thinking Talos is instead Bergelmir/Farbauti and that the unnamed sky god that Annam produced the giant gods with was maybe Talos.... and maybe Talos doesn't like to be reminded of this... yeah, its late, and I'm tired. Of course, were any of this to be presented, it wouldn't use any of the norse names.

So, the round about method I was thinking here was that perhaps Hel was sent to Abeir, and centuries later the Charonti come over, and she begins answering their prayers and powering their magic. If she is some kind of daughter of Shar/Selune she may have ties to the shadow weave and is using the death energy (rather than life energy) of beings to power it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Mar 2017 04:15:25
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5139 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2017 :  03:43:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Hmmmmm... reading further into their religion -they were devout to this deity, and very powerful magically, and then came this 'great disaster' (the plague), and they lost most of their power.

It could be they revered Shar before going to Abeir, and then 'lost contact' with her when that plague struck, and thats when they gave up religion. Then again, if thats what happened, then there really isn't even a reason for bringing Shar into this (except we still need 'death magic', which works better with the Shadoweave).

Unless... Charonti death-magic has nothing to do with necromancy - there IS nothing evil about it. Maybe what they are doing is more along the lines of creating a 'flesh golem', so it could be more elemental - and therefor tied to primoridals - than traditional zombie-making magics. They're just using corpses as a ready-made vessel for elemental spirits. And this doesn't mean we'd have to lose any Thayan or Sahu connections - they could have used traditional necromantic magic back wile they were in Faerūn, and then switched after the disaster (which landed them in Abeir).



One thing that could also be is that the shadow weave may NOT be totally controlled by Shar. For instance, what if Leira (as goddess of illusions) also has some control of the shadow weave. I also mentioned the idea of Hel having some control of the shadow weave. Velsharoon may have not known it, but he may have also been able to control the shadow weave. If we take this idea into things, it could be that Mystryl wasn't the only entity born of the two sides of Shar/Selune during their splitting into separate aspects.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Zeromaru X
Learned Scribe

Colombia
235 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2017 :  06:07:01  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Along these same lines, if we consider the idea that Loki was confined, with a snake dripping venom on him, and his other wife Sigyn catching said venom... but when she misses a drop earthquakes happen. This sounds like Loki could be an imprisoned primordial from the early days (I will note he also has some link to fire).


Maybe this can help:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shrieking_Chasm

Toward the cobalt, there is a shining Earth. That is where sadness begins. All that we love is returning there...
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5139 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2017 :  13:41:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Along these same lines, if we consider the idea that Loki was confined, with a snake dripping venom on him, and his other wife Sigyn catching said venom... but when she misses a drop earthquakes happen. This sounds like Loki could be an imprisoned primordial from the early days (I will note he also has some link to fire).


Maybe this can help:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Shrieking_Chasm



Interesting.

"The sounds that emerged from the chasm were so terrible that many believed the Shrieking Chasm was the prison of a mad primordial who betrayed its kin to the gods during the Dawn War. The inhabitants of Relmaur preferred to avoid the chasm for that reason."

So, perhaps instead of a primordial imprisoned for betrayed for betraying the other primordials ... perhaps a primordial imprisoned by the gods for betraying them..... possibly he provided the ritual to the Batrachi which led to the freeing of the other primordials? Not wanting to copy Norse mythology completely, so the twists to include a Loki-like entity might be that


Valigan Thirdborn is born of a primordial being resembling a storm giant (Talos) mating with a primordial entity of decaying wood (Moander). From Moander's rotting mass, a burning section of leaves and pine needles is separated, forming Valigan's body from the ashes. He is the thirdborn son, with little known of the other two. He is represented as a trickster, chaos incarnate, and a lord of wildfires.

Valigan Thirdborn mates with and produces Kezef the Chaos Hound, Ourobouros the World Serpent, and the first death goddess upon Shar/Selune.

Valigan Thirdborn, in seeking to aid the gods in a deal against a powerful Primordial seeking the hand of a beautiful goddess, draws away the primordial entity's primordial horse servant by transforming into a mare. Several months later, the progenitor race of the asperii and ki-rin are born.

Valigan Thirdborn is imprisoned by the gods during the shadowed age beneath a mountain. <insert name of serpent god to be above him> is placed above him to forever drip venom upon him. However, his later wife, Asynja, a goddess of peace and healing, chooses to disobey their lord and stands with a great bowl to catch the venom and turn it from her husband. However, periodically, she must empty the bowl, and when she does the primordial howls.

Valigan Thirdborn is still entrapped beneath the Howling Mountains of Relmaur, specifically in the region known as the shrieking chasm.

Valigan has managed to free an avatar of himself on several occasions throughout history. On such occasions, Tyr, the lord of justice, is dispatched to end his dealings with mortals. One such instance was when he revealed to the Batrachi the method of freeing several entrapped primordials (including himself). As a result, Ao twinned the world rather than see it destroyed, and Valigan Thirdborn was shunted to Abeir.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Mar 2017 13:47:12
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