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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
646 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2017 :  15:41:37  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Most pf us here know of the elven "Retreat" where the elves of Faerun decided to leave their kingdoms behind and move to the island of Evermeet because they feared their kingdoms were being encroached upon by the other races such as humans, dwarves, monsters, etc...

By abondoning their kingdoms, did they make the thing they feared most happen? Would they have been better off just staying and defending their kingdoms? As far as I am aware, no humand or dwarves ever attacked one of their main kingdoms in order to take over their land. I know their have been attacks on elven settlements such as by the Shoon empire but that's not the same. Now if I am wrong please let me know.

In my personal Realms I am creating something known as the "Return". I am having a group of elves, in game, decide that fleeing to Evermeet was a mistake and they want the People to return to Faerun and rebuild their kingdoms as much as possible and live in harmony with the other races who share their views.

Opinions?

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
30084 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2017 :  16:07:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's basically what the Crusade was: calling off the Retreat and reclaiming lost elven territory.

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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
559 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2017 :  16:11:52  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A sort of "return" happened in 4e as well. As the Feywild became closer to the Material World, many elves (mainly high elves/eladrin) began to return to their older kingdoms and rebuild.

As for your original question, I don't know if canonically was a mistake, but I personally believe is a mistake. They literally gifted their lands to the other races abandoning them.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2687 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2017 :  16:20:23  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, the retreat was a mistake IMO. It damaged the whole elven people, as they isolated themselves and basically doomed themselves to be excluded from all story-making events, and to become an endangered species. Ironically, the creation of Evermeet itself killed thousands upon thousands of elves and dark elves, and gave a significant boost to Lolth in Ilythiir (as Vhaeraun used to be the main deity there, but with the destruction of Attornash and the loss of many followers, Ghaunadaur and Lolth had the opportunity to influence the culture of the Ilythiiri in a deeper way. If Evermeet hadn't been created, chances are that Lolth would have never gained much influence, or at least would have had a much harder time doing that).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 11 Mar 2017 16:22:40
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moonbeast
Learned Scribe

USA
286 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2017 :  18:32:26  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for your original question, I don't know if canonically was a mistake, but I personally believe is a mistake. They literally gifted their lands to the other races abandoning them.



Tactical and strategic mistakes happened all the time in real Earth history. Societies and civilizations that were "at the top of their game" made stupid mistakes that cost them their empires.

Thus, why should it be any different in a fantasy-world setting? Despite all their intelligence and sophistication, Elves were not a perfect people. They make mistakes. And their prideful arrogant vainglorious kings would certainly make decisions they would regret in future centuries.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13839 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2017 :  19:54:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The title makes me think you were asking a different question (and to answer THAT question, I think I would have liked Evermeet to remain 'mysterious', as Ed had it - it should have been a place that you couldn't reach physically (like maybe have it in the Feywild, or 'out of sync' with the rest of the world - more 'fairy-like').

But as to whether the Retreat was a mistake, I guess it was, since they are returning. I get the whole 'retreat' thing (Tolkien, Marion Zimmer Bradley, and folklore in-general, has similar concepts). I liked it, but with elves being something different than Fey in D&D, it wasn't a perfect fit. I guess I am biased, because Greyhawk's eves were mostly fey-like, and were fairly 'rare' in human lands (at least, by comparison with The Realms). Their one great elven kingdom - Celene - had more in common with Evermeet than any elven kingdom IN Faerūn (all full-blooded GH elves are xenophobic, IIRC).

I don't like that they are 'coming back' (indecisive, much?) I wouldn't of care if FR hadn't come with the premise that 'elves are disappearing', but it did, and I feel like that was a fairly major retcon. I think the Dales would have encroached on the forest more, and would resent their return (you know, kind of like dwarves giving a citadel away, and then decided centuries later they wanted it back... whats with demihumans non-understanding of the human concept of 'private property'?) Its probably un-PC to use this term these days, but when I was a kid we had a name for that - "Indian-Giver". You are not allowed in the modern world to lay a claim on something you gave up/gave away centuries - if not millennia - earlier (unless you're Israel LOL).

So yeah, not happy with their return - I find that more of the 'mistake' than evermeet/The Retreat, but I guess that would count as a RW mistake, and I am sure others here would disagree with me.

I'm pretty fed-up with the whole 'ancient races coming back to reclaim their lands' altogether in The Forgotten Realms (use of the full name intentional). They've not just beaten that dead horse, they've brought it back as a lich just to beat it for all eternity. Hell, they've gone so far as to actually, PHYSICALLY 'bring back' parts of the planet that have been missing 35K years!!!

What part of, "most old fans didn't care for the return of Shade" didn't they get? Did someone look at that and say, "Hey! They dislike this! It could kill the setting! Someone go get e a list of hundred more things we can bring back the same way!" I swear, it almost looks that way, in hindsight. But the truth is probably closer to, "hey, they don't know what they like - I know what they want better than they do..."

I guess, at the end of the day, the elves returning is probably the LEAST abrasive 'return' we've had to endure.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2017 19:57:13
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
646 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2017 :  20:07:08  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The title makes me think you were asking a different question (and to answer THAT question, I think I would have liked Evermeet to remain 'mysterious', as Ed had it - it should have been a place that you couldn't reach physically (like maybe have it in the Feywild, or 'out of sync' with the rest of the world - more 'fairy-like').

But as to whether the Retreat was a mistake, I guess it was, since they are returning. I get the whole 'retreat' thing (Tolkien, Marion Zimmer Bradley, and folklore in-general, has similar concepts). I liked it, but with elves being something different than Fey in D&D, it wasn't a perfect fit. I guess I am biased, because Greyhawk's eves were mostly fey-like, and were fairly 'rare' in human lands (at least, by comparison with The Realms). Their one great elven kingdom - Celene - had more in common with Evermeet than any elven kingdom IN Faerūn (all full-blooded GH elves are xenophobic, IIRC).

I don't like that they are 'coming back' (indecisive, much?) I wouldn't of care if FR hadn't come with the premise that 'elves are disappearing', but it did, and I feel like that was a fairly major retcon. I think the Dales would have encroached on the forest more, and would resent their return (you know, kind of like dwarves giving a citadel away, and then decided centuries later they wanted it back... whats with demihumans non-understanding of the human concept of 'private property'?) Its probably un-PC to use this term these days, but when I was a kid we had a name for that - "Indian-Giver". You are not allowed in the modern world to lay a claim on something you gave up/gave away centuries - if not millennia - earlier (unless you're Israel LOL).

So yeah, not happy with their return - I find that more of the 'mistake' than evermeet/The Retreat, but I guess that would count as a RW mistake, and I am sure others here would disagree with me.

I'm pretty fed-up with the whole 'ancient races coming back to reclaim their lands' altogether in The Forgotten Realms (use of the full name intentional). They've not just beaten that dead horse, they've brought it back as a lich just to beat it for all eternity. Hell, they've gone so far as to actually, PHYSICALLY 'bring back' parts of the planet that have been missing 35K years!!!

What part of, "most old fans didn't care for the return of Shade" didn't they get? Did someone look at that and say, "Hey! They dislike this! It could kill the setting! Someone go get e a list of hundred more things we can bring back the same way!" I swear, it almost looks that way, in hindsight. But the truth is probably closer to, "hey, they don't know what they like - I know what they want better than they do..."

I guess, at the end of the day, the elves returning is probably the LEAST abrasive 'return' we've had to endure.



I'm not saying the elves should roll in and try and take back what has been settled by the other races such as Cormyr and the Dales, there is still the High Forest, Cormanthor, and Ardeep that can be settled again.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
418 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2017 :  21:11:37  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Creating Evermeet was a mistake. Using this unique recluse seems legit and return make sense since they didn't thought the retreat too well. Their style is "when we find something dangerous we burry it and forget it" and humans like to take down those trees elves painstakingly grew and use the land for farming so it make sense that they started to awaken a lot of those "burried treasures" once elves left their lands.
From this POV elves are like spoiled children who left when "it is not fun anymore" and returned when they found that others are playing without them .-))
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3395 Posts

Posted - 11 Mar 2017 :  22:01:15  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of course evermeet wasnt a mistake, it went exactly according to malkizid's plan

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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
418 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  09:32:52  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Of course evermeet wasnt a mistake, it went exactly according to malkizid's plan


That seems strange to me... you have a big problem with gods machinations in material world but you have no problem with archfiends? What is the difference?
BTW is there a source saying he was meddling with sundering ritual?
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3395 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  09:49:55  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Grand History of the Realms i believe.

Malkizid is an actual being with and actual body. He's not a metaphysical being powered by belief. He has real motivations like greed and vengeance.

However that being said i dont think malkizid turned up and altered the events in any way. It would be one of his agents or followers that turned the vyshaan to evil and planted the idea of an elven homeland into the heads of important people.

If it was Lolth stated to be involved i would have one of her priestesses or cultists do the suggesting. At no point would any archfiend or deity turn up in person or communicate with anyone directly.

The people do the work the archfiend gets the glory.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  16:09:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A fact that has been stated repeatedly and backed up by Realmslore, and yet that you seem determined to ignore, is that deities don't have to be physically present to do something.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Mar 2017 16:09:31
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13839 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  17:00:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are plenty of archwizards that don't have to be present to 'do something' either.

@dazzler - I think one major difference in the way you and I look at 'cosmic' stuff is that I think of ALL non-Prime Material beings as 'spirits', the way K-T/RW Asian mythology does. They are all just energy, creating avatars in whatever plane they appear in. In their own planes they are made from the 'Planestuff' of the plane (and we see this most clearly in elementals). The only time they have actual, physical bodies is when they are in THE plane of the 'physical' - The Prime Material.

And BTW, I have it in my hombrew cosmology that the elemental planes are within the Material Plane, and that the 'Prime' is just one of the elemental planes (a plane where the material has become blended together, but unlike the 'Chaos', its exists in a lawful, static manner). Thus, FIVE elements - Air, Earth, Fire, Water, AND 'alloy' (what is called 'Wood' or 'Metal' in Asian lore, and sometimes referred to as 'life' - an alchemical concept). There is also a sixth - the non-element of 'Void'. Everything outside of that is non-physical, and therefor, 'spirit'.

I only bring this up here and now because I don't really see a difference between an archfiend, a deity, and a primordial other than 'power level' (and also how they came about, and their 'nature', but thats another line of discussion).


Also, there is something... addictive... about having a physical form. The higher the level of being, the easier they can avoid the temptations offered. The lower the power level - like, lets say a common fiend - the more 'seductive' the physical form becomes for them (and evil beings are less likely to be able to avoid giving in to their base desires). But, as we know, even angels 'fall'. All Outsiders become 'sensates' when they assume a physical body - the sensation of experiencing things first-hand (rather than just 'being aware of them' in spirit-form) can overwhelm a lesser being. Demons love it, even Celestials are tempted by it, and some beings - like the Greek Pantheon - revel in it.

Back on topic:
In my Realms, I will actually keep the 4e version - the 'real' Evermeet exists outside reality (in the Feywild). If most mortals tried to sail to their island, they'd only find the desolate, rocky version with little to no life. But if something that can open a pathway to Faerie - like a boatload of elves - approached, they would sail 'through the mists' into the Feywild and reach the real Evermeet, a timeless place some still call Tintageer.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3395 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2017 :  17:11:53  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I try not to think of the deities at all. I cant think of a single storyline i liked that had a god directly involved.

Ed has repeatedly stated that the gods very rarely get directly involved in anything. Those that claim to have met or communed with a god directly are almost always mad or liars or both.

Ed made the realms and i find his original vision much more palatable than the kewl version thats peddled nowadays.


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bloodtide_the_red
Seeker

USA
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Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  00:35:52  Show Profile  Visit bloodtide_the_red's Homepage Send bloodtide_the_red a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A mistake? No.

It saved tons of elves, even more so older ones and children and preserved the elven culture and lore.

When it starts in 1344, there are not all that many ''huge'' eleven empires left. Mostly the Retreat only really effected the Dalelands and the places around the Elven Court. After all the elven kingdoms of Synnoria or Shilmista or Wealdath or Evereska all stayed put.

And even more so that...suddenly in 1356 (right when that first 1E FR book was published here on our Earth...) the Realms...or well, at least the ''Heartlands'' and ''The North'' where hit with a never ending steam of every bigger cataclysms and disasters. The scattered elves avoided all the crazy exclations of ''I can top that'' that just suddenly happened in the 1360's and 1370's...every single year.

So smart move to get out....
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1426 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  07:25:23  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It was... exactly what they would do in this situation. A fairly typical result of their approach, only on a greater scale.
Was this a mixed blessing which in the end seems to cost them too much? Yes - but then, one can make a case this may apply to all the mythals around ghost cities.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

That's basically what the Crusade was: calling off the Retreat and reclaiming lost elven territory.

Yup. And much of emptyair-pull.
The Elves couldn't hold their own in the world, they ran off, lived some centuries growing more molly-coddled and full of themselves, then they return and somehow don't end up picking a fight with the whole continent and losing.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

As for your original question, I don't know if canonically was a mistake, but I personally believe is a mistake. They literally gifted their lands to the other races abandoning them.

Ah, not "gifted". Elves still think they own these places. And when they'll proclaim this somehow no one from the back row muses aloud that technically "formerly Elven territories" include the whole continent.
Also, they moved out under pressure, yet somehow no one moved in.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
559 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  12:52:55  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for your original question, I don't know if canonically was a mistake, but I personally believe is a mistake. They literally gifted their lands to the other races abandoning them.



Tactical and strategic mistakes happened all the time in real Earth history. Societies and civilizations that were "at the top of their game" made stupid mistakes that cost them their empires.

Thus, why should it be any different in a fantasy-world setting? Despite all their intelligence and sophistication, Elves were not a perfect people. They make mistakes. And their prideful arrogant vainglorious kings would certainly make decisions they would regret in future centuries.




Don't misunderstand me. I can understand that, and that is something that makes me so attached to the Realms even after having known other D&D settings: The Realms is a setting that makes sense. Is something that can happen in RL, and to any people. You made a decision, but you don't know its consequences.

Don't invalidates that is was a bad decision, however. They are returning to Faerūn for a reason.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Ah, not "gifted". Elves still think they own these places. And when they'll proclaim this somehow no one from the back row muses aloud that technically "formerly Elven territories" include the whole continent.
Also, they moved out under pressure, yet somehow no one moved in.



Monsters did. You read about old elven cities, and are full of demons, devils, beholders, etc.

They count as intelligent races on the Realms.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

245 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  13:51:25  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

Most pf us here know of the elven "Retreat" where the elves of Faerun decided to leave their kingdoms behind and move to the island of Evermeet because they feared their kingdoms were being encroached upon by the other races such as humans, dwarves, monsters, etc...

By abondoning their kingdoms, did they make the thing they feared most happen? Would they have been better off just staying and defending their kingdoms? As far as I am aware, no humand or dwarves ever attacked one of their main kingdoms in order to take over their land. I know their have been attacks on elven settlements such as by the Shoon empire but that's not the same. Now if I am wrong please let me know.

In my personal Realms I am creating something known as the "Return". I am having a group of elves, in game, decide that fleeing to Evermeet was a mistake and they want the People to return to Faerun and rebuild their kingdoms as much as possible and live in harmony with the other races who share their views.

Opinions?



I think this is a great idea... and it could raise an interesting dynamic with the Eldreth Veluuthra. Since they would consider fleeing to Evermeet as mistake for some very different reasons than your Elves that are initiating the "Return". The Eldreth Veluuthra might initially be happy that the Elves are initiating the "Return" but when it isn't a returning crusade, there could be some serious fallout... Or maybe this "Return" could finally be the thing that causes the Eldreth Veluuthra to get rid of its antagonistic leadership and lay down their swords... Good stuff, Shadowsoul.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Diffan
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USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  14:15:34  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, the Retreat was a mistake though I think it added to the overall story of the Realms but ONLY because the Crusade reclaimed it. If it had still been in a perpetual "retreat" from the beginning til now, it would've continued to boring Tolkien trope Elves always appear to be saddled with ("were old and tired and the worlds changing and more humans" blah blah blah *yawn*). I'm glad they're back and still fighting to get their cities and lands back. So far we have:

Elves in Neverwinter are attempting to reclaim Old Sharandar Ruins and they have "New" Sharandar.
Elves in Myth Drannor are still reeling from the events in The Herald
Elves in Evereska are still doing well despite it's proximity to what was the empire of Shade.
Elves of Shilmista forest are still active as far as anyone knows.
Elves in the Glimmerwood maintain that weird, uneasy truce with the Kingdom of Many-Arrows as far as anyone knows.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Veritas
Learned Scribe

195 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  14:50:22  Show Profile  Visit Veritas's Homepage Send Veritas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If anything, I think bringing them back was the mistake. Before we had plenty of mysterious ruins from a faded culture with what was left (barring a few enclaves like Evereska) were just a pale shadow of the glory of the past. I think that was a strength of the original setting. Great civilizations long past. Since then, we've seen a return of many of the most lore notable major civilizations and dispelled much of the mystery and imagination they had to offer.

Despite the scarcity of the elves, now they're back, and seemingly mighty,quite out of nowhere. Unfortunately, with the Realms all but entirely dead at this point, we're not likely to see much further adjustment.
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Diffan
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USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  15:26:20  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Veritas

If anything, I think bringing them back was the mistake. Before we had plenty of mysterious ruins from a faded culture with what was left (barring a few enclaves like Evereska) were just a pale shadow of the glory of the past. I think that was a strength of the original setting. Great civilizations long past. Since then, we've seen a return of many of the most lore notable major civilizations and dispelled much of the mystery and imagination they had to offer.

Despite the scarcity of the elves, now they're back, and seemingly mighty,quite out of nowhere. Unfortunately, with the Realms all but entirely dead at this point, we're not likely to see much further adjustment.



Doesn't this, however, allow for a fun story of helping them Reclaim these lost ruins? I mean Old Sharandar is no where close to being "reclaimed" and still lies in Ruins. Helping the Elves reclaim that, at least in part, can be a lot of fun AND you can still explore lost empires.

Helping the Elves fix and clean up Myth Drannor is also a great story hook. And despite what the novels said, Myth Drannor was FAR from fully reclaimed. In the novel "Avenger" the protagonist travels back to Myth Drannor and gets help breaking into some area of the city that were warded and blocked off because denizens and evil still dwelled there. That's rampant across the whole place, not just in a few isolated area. And now, with the end results of The Herald, those barriers and wards are probably gone or destroyed. Not to mention any problems the result of Netheril had when it fell.

That's only 2 locales that could provide a host of interesting campaigns that revolve around exploring old elven Ruins.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13839 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  15:40:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

Doesn't this, however, allow for a fun story of helping them Reclaim these lost ruins?
Some us, however, would prefer to help the 'monsters'.

Elves causing major catastrophes and annihilating entire nations of humans: YES

Fiends doing the same: NO

Fiends, obviously, make for MUCH better neighbors.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 13 Mar 2017 15:42:10
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  15:41:08  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Veritas

Despite the scarcity of the elves, now they're back, and seemingly mighty,quite out of nowhere. Unfortunately, with the Realms all but entirely dead at this point, we're not likely to see much further adjustment.



The reclamation of Myth Drannor has been undone, stuff is back to pre-3e time.

If anything, tho, I agree with Diffan. Helping the elves to clean Myth Drannor would have been a great plot hook, and would have allowed them to have their cake and eat it too.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Diffan
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USA
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Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  16:39:41  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by Veritas

Despite the scarcity of the elves, now they're back, and seemingly mighty,quite out of nowhere. Unfortunately, with the Realms all but entirely dead at this point, we're not likely to see much further adjustment.



The reclamation of Myth Drannor has been undone, stuff is back to pre-3e time.

If anything, tho, I agree with Diffan. Helping the elves to clean Myth Drannor would have been a great plot hook, and would have allowed them to have their cake and eat it too.



There were a series of adventures set in Myth Drannor to help repel attacks and to broaden their boarders for the Living Forgotten Realms adventures. You can check them out HERE

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Irennan
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Posted - 13 Mar 2017 :  16:43:38  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 14 Mar 2017 :  20:36:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Myth Drannor has the potential to be the biggest 'mega dungen' ever done, and yet, they've mostly ignored it.

The thing that makes it so different from other 'mega-dungeons' is that it isn't entirely underground (although the 'under-area' could easily rival the largest mega-dungeons). In fact, you can even have multiple levels above ground level - certain remaining tall-structures (and since we had a Spellplague AND a Sundering, we COULD have lots more of those than previously - "its magic!") could be connected via rope-bridges and what-not (similar to Eberron's Sharn but on a much smaller scale), and by Gates (teleports to other areas of the city, including other 'high spots' unreachable directly from the grounds).

I could also connect to the Feywild and Shadowfell, parts of the astral or ethreal, and even parts of the lower (and upper?) planes. It literally can go in 'more than 3 dimensions'.

Then take that premise - a mega 'magic city' with a dysfunctional mythal, that could possibly have reflections of itself in other planes (I definitely picture a feywild Eladrin 'ruin' over-lapping it), and add-in a dozen or more 'fations', some of which having factons within themselves, all wth 'enclaves' of their own, with their own agandas, trying to re-take parts of the city, all for their own reasons. Some would naturall work wth each other, some would not, and some might surprise us (like drow working with Eldreth Veluuthra).

For example - i picture (at least) three elven factions: a simple wood elf camp on the outskirts, who are really just watching what all the others 'are about'. Silver (High) Elves with a camp deeper in, with fighting 'right outside the gates'. And lastly, a haughty Gold Elf enclave right on the edge of the city-proper, who lords over everyone else, and think everything is "their right", but are really just a bunch of asshats 'out on safari' from Evermeet or elsewhere, mostly wining and dining and enjoying life's pleasures in pavilion tents, who are oblivious to just how dangerous it is for them to be so blaise near the city. There would also be at least two drow enclaves - one 'okay' (civil) one somewhere on the surface probably hold-up in some building in the city), and then another, unrelated group that is 'pure evil' (standard drow). You'd have Red Wizards, Zhents (perhaps a couple of those - some would be 'working for' the other groups), Druids of the Emerald Enclave, etc, etc. A couple of 'knightly/religious orders' maybe.

And this should all be done video-game style. You'd have different 'rep' with the different groups, and can even procure certain supplies from them, but you'd have to do stuff for them, and you'd have to make sure not work against them too overtly while 'doing stuff' for other groups. And the groups should have different stuff, so you'd need to deal with all - or most - of them to maximize your game. In that way, you can stay 'IN' the dungeon and still stay supplied, for weeks, maybe even months (if you're lucky).

So maybe even increase the size of the ruins (which should confuse the elves, who's maps would no longer be reliable), and add within it little 'settlements' (PoL), some of which may start-out very hostile, but you might be able to change their minds about you, so it becomes more like a survival game, coupled with a dungeon crawl.

And now that I described it, it WOULD make a most-excellent, stand-alone, Video Game. But I would love to see them do that in FR canon as well - make it the 'uber adventure area' Ed always meant it to be.

And lots and LOTS of 'kewl' moments, like when you free the caged avariels from the 'High Aerie', or when you cut a deal with the aboleth to get past the illithids... that sort of thing. Make it 'Realms', and make it drip with flavor (and 'layers' of intrigue).

And fiends. A grab-bag of fiends. In fact, outsiders of every flavor. It is/was a 'magical city', after all. WE can some pretty cool nods to Planescape that way (like when you have to ask a Bariaur for directions to the druids, etc). Maybe even throw in a very secret, hard-to-find 'doorway to Sigil' somewhere. It should be a place where you can run into absolutely anyone, or anything.

Thats how Myth Drannor should be. A retaken elven city is just boring; FR is a D&D setting after all, and we need to still cater to that (and yet, still keep it interesting enough for the non-gamers to enjoy).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 14 Mar 2017 20:56:06
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