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Diffan
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Posted - 27 Feb 2017 :  00:51:19  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
So I looked through the massive amount of info and official things, inlcuding Dragon magazine, for anything Helm-related and I'm coming up a bit short. Aside from a few class-feature replacements in Champion of Valor, the Initiate of Helm feat, and this homebrew prestige class The Watcher there's really not much out there.

Now normally I'd just grab that but there are a few things about it I'm not particularly fond of such as the feat prerequisites that are....odd...as is requiring a Domain that doesn't exist. So I'm gonna try and make my own but I'm going to need some help from you fine gents and ladies.

So some baseline mechanics and expectations:

• Name: I'm fine with the Watcher but not sold on it. Ideas?

• BAB / Spellcasting split: Early on Prestige Classes were sorta weak, especially ones that gave out only +1/2 spellcasting because the benefits of class features and BAB NEVER mattered as much as spells per day. So for this class I'm going to go along with Galuf the Dwarf's recommendation and go +3/4 BAB in favor of full-spellcasting. Honestly with things like Divine Metamagic (Persist Spell) getting a great BAB is 1 spell away and lasts 24-hrs.

• Saves: Again the usual Cleric progression (good Fort and Will, poor Ref) makes sense for a class designed to be all about Watching for lawlessness and Chaos, wading in with plate-mail and weapon in hand.

• Spellcasting: Full progression from 1-10 seems perfect here.

• Prerequisites: here's where it starts to get tricky...
-Skills: Concentration and Knowledge (religion) should be up there for a specialist of Helm. Maybe ranks in Spot and Listen but I'm unsure about this. Not only are they not class skills, I'm not sure how literal the Watcher needs to be. But like Galuf's class states, 2 ranks each (4.0 cross class) isn't terrible.

-Feats: Alertness and Improved Initiative are....ugh overall. Improved Initiative isn't terrible but Alertness, ah no. How about Improved Initiative and Initiate of Helm as it's more fitting a specialist OF Helm.

-Domains: Helm is privy to the domains Law, Planning, Protection, and Strength. Law and Protection, while flavorful, are pretty bad overall. Their spell-lists are generic and their features are mind-numbingly boring. I'd remove this part altogether.

-Special: I like Galuf's idea here ("Must have participated in a vigil involving a major city structure – whether it is a meeting hall, a temple of a non-evil deity, or a marketplace – for twenty-four hours.").

Skills: Obviously class skills like Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana, Religion, and the Planes) are good. So is Listen and Spot and perhaps things like Diplomacy and Spellcraft too.
4 + Intelligence is something that I believe ALL classes should have, so this is perfect.

Class Features

Now here is where I'm really gonna need help. Galuf had some interesting ideas like extra Mace of Odo spell-like abilities and such but I think it needs a bit more.....something.

Options/Ideas:

- Bonus Feats: Eh, it's an easy out because everyone likes more Feats but again, this is rather bland. I mean how good is a Prestige Class feature that grants +1 to attacks with one specific weapon?

- Turning: As a specialty priest of Helm, I think their abandonment of turning against the Undead is a mistake. So maybe continuing their use of this is a good idea?

- Anti-magic stuff: Ah, one of Helms greatest (or poorest) moments is when he unabashedly followed Ao's command and straight up slew Mystra for her arrogance in thinking she should be allowed back up the celestial stairway because she found out who took the tables of fate (but did not procure them). So do Watchers sort of follow the trend of fighting against magic via Anti-magic fields, dispel magic, spell immunity?

- Benefits to not being caught unawares. Galuf gave the Watcher Uncanny Dodge and to a degree it's a bit fitting. Helmites not being surprised sort of fits the theme of a Watcher and it sort of goes with the Initiate of Helm feature (being able to get Attacks of Opportunity while flat-footed). But maybe that's sort of overstepping the feat a bit? Or maybe they can make Attacks of Opportunity based on their Wisdom score instead of Dexterity? Patience and Watching an opponents moves works just as good as being quick.

- Quickened spells: At first this might throw people off as being CRAZY POWERFUL but hear me out, you base it on a domain. Like the Ordained Champion from Complete Champion supplement, they can spontaneously cast spells from the War domain and they're swift actions. They do give up the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells, so there is a trade-off.

- Bonus Domains: A common feature among other cleric-based prestige class, gaining a third domain helps with some versatility. Also getting a free domain from outside their deities portfolio might be cool. If such a feature exists: I'd say Courage, Destiny, and Inquisition are all fitting for Helm too.

- other ideas that I may not have thought of. let me hear them!

Thank you!

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4854 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2017 :  01:12:02  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


• Name: I'm fine with the Watcher but not sold on it. Ideas?



Sentinel.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2017 :  09:54:48  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


• Name: I'm fine with the Watcher but not sold on it. Ideas?



Sentinel.

-- George Krashos



I rather like that name. Thank you!

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 27 Feb 2017 22:20:07
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sleyvas
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USA
5643 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  01:47:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


• Name: I'm fine with the Watcher but not sold on it. Ideas?



Sentinel.

-- George Krashos




I rather like that name. Thank you!



From Faiths & Avatars, you can usually get some good names too. Helm's priesthood uses the titles Watchknight, Guardian, Overblade, High Watcher, and Senior Steeleye

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
5643 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  03:22:56  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, bear in mind, there's some other reasons to take some of those domains. For instance, the Law domain is required to make weapons that are I think they called it axiomatic.

Also, bear this in mind. If you get full spell progression, normal cleric BAB, and full turning... what exactly are you giving up in order to enter this prestige class? Especially if you tailor the requirements so that its only stuff that you already want to get. Maybe keep advancing turning, but only once every 3 levels maybe (2nd, 5th, 8th maybe).

I'd also recommend maybe looking into the bonus feats thing, but look into changing the feats that are choices (see below). The guy had a good idea with the 2 levels of spellcasting loss in order to get some feats. It could be even worth it to say lose 3 spellcasting levels and gain say 4 feats over the progression. With the options I show below, you could go either anti-spellcaster OR weapon and shield defender pretty easily.

The uncanny dodge... sounds ok.

When it comes to Helm, he is a defender. So, he should do things to stop attacks, take damage meant for someone else, raise a "shield" of some sort, etc... So, what about improved init & improved counterspell as a requirement and you get to choose from the following feats: reactive counterspell (from PGtF), dampen spell (from PH2), and divine defiance (from fiendish codex II). You could also consider Persistent Refusal, which lets you make a second save. The divine defiance and Persistent Refusal uses turning attempts, such that if you are doing the persistent spell priest (which is good), it makes you wonder if you should spend all of your turn attempts.

Other choice feats: somatic weaponry(CArc), combat casting, combat expertise, dodge, mobility, craft contingent spell, shield specialization(PH2), shield ward (PH2), armor specialization, improved shield bash, agile shield fighter (PH2), active shield defense (PH2), Improved Combat Expertise (CW), Defensive Strike (CW), Divine Shield (CW), Elusive Target (CW),

Other class abilities might give a temporary bonus to AC for yourself and anyone within say five feet of you, but make the bonus something that most adventurers will already have that bonus type, like a deflection bonus. Have this bonus increase say from +1 to +5 at max. Having this last for like 2 rounds and activatable as a swift action, usable a couple times a day.

I like the idea of choosing an additional domain as well, and including inquisition and courage as options both would seem to fit.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  13:08:58  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by Diffan


• Name: I'm fine with the Watcher but not sold on it. Ideas?



Sentinel.

-- George Krashos




I rather like that name. Thank you!



From Faiths & Avatars, you can usually get some good names too. Helm's priesthood uses the titles Watchknight, Guardian, Overblade, High Watcher, and Senior Steeleye



I do like the Watchknight and High Watcher too. Hmm....


quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, bear in mind, there's some other reasons to take some of those domains. For instance, the Law domain is required to make weapons that are I think they called it axiomatic.


While that's true, I'm not entire sure crafting weapons is something that's going to be a prevalent aspect of this Prestige Class. I think the point behind prerequisites is to fulfill the flavor of the class. Now if we make it a point of a Sentinel or Watchknight to be good at crafting lawful weapon, then that domain would certainly make sense.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Also, bear this in mind. If you get full spell progression, normal cleric BAB, and full turning... what exactly are you giving up in order to enter this prestige class? Especially if you tailor the requirements so that its only stuff that you already want to get.


The thing about prestige classes are that you're basically paying for it via the requirements. Having to spend a feat on Improved Initiative and cross-class ranks in Skills such as Listen and Spot are sort of payment for added bonuses. Also by going with the Cleric BAB you're also losing a point by 20th level. Might not be notable but it is a loss of something. I guess when you look at some of the Base classes like Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer they're so bare-bones on features that literally they're starving for actual flavor that is usually only gained through Prestige Classes. It's why I did a revision of the Fighter.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Maybe keep advancing turning, but only once every 3 levels maybe (2nd, 5th, 8th maybe).
So you'd only add 1/2 your Sentinel/Watchknight level to your turn undead ability? That's doable.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I'd also recommend maybe looking into the bonus feats thing, but look into changing the feats that are choices (see below). The guy had a good idea with the 2 levels of spellcasting loss in order to get some feats. It could be even worth it to say lose 3 spellcasting levels and gain say 4 feats over the progression. With the options I show below, you could go either anti-spellcaster OR weapon and shield defender pretty easily.


That's a pretty significant loss for bonus feats. I mean feats are nice but they're no where near comparison for spellcasting advancement. I'd be more inclined to remove bonus feats altogether OR at the very least lose just 1 level of Spellcasting at 1st level.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

The uncanny dodge... sounds ok.


I'm not a fan either. On my next post I have a different way of going about it that doesn't just rip off an existing class feature.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

When it comes to Helm, he is a defender. So, he should do things to stop attacks, take damage meant for someone else, raise a "shield" of some sort, etc... So, what about improved init & improved counterspell as a requirement and you get to choose from the following feats: reactive counterspell (from PGtF), dampen spell (from PH2), and divine defiance (from fiendish codex II). You could also consider Persistent Refusal, which lets you make a second save. The divine defiance and Persistent Refusal uses turning attempts, such that if you are doing the persistent spell priest (which is good), it makes you wonder if you should spend all of your turn attempts.


Funny you mention the Persistent Spell cleric, that was the build I was hoping to make. Thus far I'd have enough to Persist 3 spell a day with 1 turn attempt left over by 10th level (AND without the use of a Nightstick as we don't allow them to stack).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Other choice feats: somatic weaponry(CArc), combat casting, combat expertise, dodge, mobility, craft contingent spell, shield specialization(PH2), shield ward (PH2), armor specialization, improved shield bash, agile shield fighter (PH2), active shield defense (PH2), Improved Combat Expertise (CW), Defensive Strike (CW), Divine Shield (CW), Elusive Target (CW),

Other class abilities might give a temporary bonus to AC for yourself and anyone within say five feet of you, but make the bonus something that most adventurers will already have that bonus type, like a deflection bonus. Have this bonus increase say from +1 to +5 at max. Having this last for like 2 rounds and activatable as a swift action, usable a couple times a day.

I like the idea of choosing an additional domain as well, and including inquisition and courage as options both would seem to fit.


You've given me a lot of ideas to think about. I like the idea for the Bonus feats and adds flavor to the class.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5643 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  16:40:04  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yeah, that inquisition domain, added to the counterspelling stuff, would make you a really good counterspeller. Problem with counterspelling becomes actual number of spells you have. I don't know that I've ever seen it, but a feat that would let you use charges from a magic item, in coordination with reactive counterspell would also be nice.

If you are doing the persistent spell cleric with divine metamagic, remember that it was changed in PGtF to 6 levels from 4. I'd also recommend Metamagic School Focus (CMage) and the epic Improved Metamagic. There is also easy metamagic from Dragon 325, if the DM allows it. Residual Magic, IF you have a spell that can be cast in different ways, can use the Lingering Metamagic ability to add persistence to a second casting of the spell for free. The only thing that comes to mind like that is the wizard spell fire shield, but there's probably others.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  21:34:08  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

yeah, that inquisition domain, added to the counterspelling stuff, would make you a really good counterspeller. Problem with counterspelling becomes actual number of spells you have. I don't know that I've ever seen it, but a feat that would let you use charges from a magic item, in coordination with reactive counterspell would also be nice.


I think I'm going to trade out Turn Undead advancement for the Inquisition Domain. Good call there.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

If you are doing the persistent spell cleric with divine metamagic, remember that it was changed in PGtF to 6 levels from 4. I'd also recommend Metamagic School Focus (CMage) and the epic Improved Metamagic. There is also easy metamagic from Dragon 325, if the DM allows it. Residual Magic, IF you have a spell that can be cast in different ways, can use the Lingering Metamagic ability to add persistence to a second casting of the spell for free. The only thing that comes to mind like that is the wizard spell fire shield, but there's probably others.



So far the current character is 10th level (made him for a game where the DM decided to run City of the Spider Queen, yeesh) and I've never done a Helmite before.

Sofar here's what I got for this Prestige Class. Still not sure if I wanna call it a Watchknight or Sentinel? Have a look.

The Watchknight

Requirements
Alignment: Any Lawful
Skills: Concentration 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, Listen 2 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks, Spot 2 ranks
Feats: Improved Counterspell, Improved Initiative, Initiate of Helm
Special: must have spent a night in holy vigil at a temple or otherwise holy place reserved for Helm.
Spellcasting: Must be able to prepare and cast 3rd level divine spells.
Deity: You must worship Helm

CLASS FEATURES

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills: The Watchknight’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int, all skills taken individually), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the Planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Watchknight gains no proficiency with armor however they gain proficiency with the Bastard Sword if they do not already have it.

Inquisition Domain: Upon adopting the Watchknight class, a character gains access to the Inquisition domain. The character gains the granted power associated with the domain (a +4 bonus on dispel checks) and can choose the spells in that domain as his daily domain spells.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: A Watchknight continues advancing in divine spellcasting ability as well as learning the skills of a Watchknight. Thus, starting at 2nd level when a new Watchknight level is gained, the character gains new divine spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, more frequent remove disease, and so on). This means that he adds the level of Watchknight to the level of another divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day accordingly.

If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a Watchknight, the player must decide which class to assign each level of Watchknight for the purpose of determining divine spells per day and spells known.

Patient Counter-Strike (Ex): The Watchknight is a calculating warrior, using patience and perception more than grace and agility when fighting foes. Thus when a Watchknight gains 1st level they may make any number of Attacks of Opportunity per turn equal to their Wisdom modifier. This ability does not stack with Combat Reflexes, a Watchknight takes the better of either totals to determine their total number of Attacks of Opportunity per turn.

Bonus Feats: As a warrior-priest, the Watchknight must keep up their combat training in order to fight foes directly. Starting at 2nd level and every 4 levels after (6th and 10th) the Watchknight gains an extra feat. They may choose from the following list and must meet the prerequisites before selecting the feat: Alertness, Combat Casting, Dampen Spell, Divine Defiance, Extra Turning, Greater Spell Penetration, Power Attack, Reactive Countespell, Spell Penetration, and Weapon Focus.

Glyph of Warding (Sp): At 3rd level the Watchknight gains the spell-like ability to cast glyph of warding. This ability can be used once per day. Casting the spell this way only takes half the time, 5-minutes, instead of the normal casting time. The caster level is equal to the Watchknight’s level. At 7th level the Watchknight gains a second use of glyph of Warding and the casting time of this ability is reduced to 1 full-round action.

Wall of Law (Sp): At 4th level, the Watchknight gains the spell-like ability to cast wall of law. The caster level is equal to the Watchknight’s level.

Mace of Odo (Sp): At 5th level, the Watchknight gains the spell-like ability to cast mace of Odo. This can be cast 3 times per day and the caster level is equal to the Watchknight’s level.

At 10th level the Watchknight’s connection to Helm is so great that the Mace is not dismissed when it strikes a target. If it leaves the Sentinel’s hand or absorbs a spell the mace is dismissed as normal.

Domain Spontaneity (Ex): Beginning at 7th level a Watchknight selects one of the domains he has access to. From now on he may spontaneously cast spells from that domain. This ability functions just like a cleric who spontaneously casts cure or inflict spells.

Helm’s Guidance: ?!?!? No idea here. Suggestions?

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 28 Feb 2017 23:19:56
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5643 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  23:09:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

yeah, that inquisition domain, added to the counterspelling stuff, would make you a really good counterspeller. Problem with counterspelling becomes actual number of spells you have. I don't know that I've ever seen it, but a feat that would let you use charges from a magic item, in coordination with reactive counterspell would also be nice.


I think I'm going to trade out Turn Undead advancement for the Inquisition Domain. Good call there.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

If you are doing the persistent spell cleric with divine metamagic, remember that it was changed in PGtF to 6 levels from 4. I'd also recommend Metamagic School Focus (CMage) and the epic Improved Metamagic. There is also easy metamagic from Dragon 325, if the DM allows it. Residual Magic, IF you have a spell that can be cast in different ways, can use the Lingering Metamagic ability to add persistence to a second casting of the spell for free. The only thing that comes to mind like that is the wizard spell fire shield, but there's probably others.



So far the current character is 10th level (made him for a game where the DM decided to run City of the Spider Queen, yeesh) and I've never done a Helmite before.

Sofar here's what I got for this Prestige Class. Still not sure if I wanna call it a Watchknight or Sentinel? Have a look.

The Watchknight

Requirements
Alignment: Any Lawful
Skills: Concentration 8 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 5 ranks, Listen 2 ranks, Spellcraft 5 ranks, Spot 2 ranks
Feats: Improved Counterspell, Improved Initiative, Initiate of Helm
Special: must have spent a night in holy vigil at a temple or otherwise holy place reserved for Helm.
Spellcasting: Must be able to prepare and cast 3rd level divine spells.
Deity: You must worship Helm

CLASS FEATURES

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills: The Watchknight’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int, all skills taken individually), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the Planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Watchknight gains no proficiency with armor however they gain proficiency with the Bastard Sword if they do not already have it.

Inquisition Domain: Upon adopting the Watchknight class, a character gains access to the Inquisition domain. The character gains the granted power associated with the domain (a +4 bonus on dispel checks) and can choose the spells in that domain as his daily domain spells.

Spells per Day/Spells Known: A Watchknight continues advancing in divine spellcasting ability as well as learning the skills of a Watchknight. Thus, starting at 2nd level when a new Watchknight level is gained, the character gains new divine spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, more frequent remove disease, and so on). This means that he adds the level of Watchknight to the level of another divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day accordingly.

If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a Watchknight, the player must decide which class to assign each level of Watchknight for the purpose of determining divine spells per day and spells known.

Patient Counter-Strike (Ex): The Watchknight is a calculating warrior, using patience and perception more than grace and agility when fighting foes. Thus when a Watchknight gains 1st level they may make any number of Attacks of Opportunity per turn equal to their Wisdom modifier. This ability does not stack with Combat Reflexes, a Watchknight takes the better of either totals to determine their total number of Attacks of Opportunity per turn.

Bonus Feats: As a warrior-priest, the Watchknight must keep up their combat training in order to fight foes directly. Starting at 2nd level and every 4 levels after (6th and 10th) the Watchknight gains an extra feat. They may choose from the following list and must meet the prerequisites before selecting the feat: Alertness, Combat Casting, Dampen Spell, Divine Defiance, Extra Turning, Greater Spell Penetration, Power Attack, Reactive Countespell, Spell Penetration, and Weapon Focus.

Glyph of Warding (Sp): At 3rd level the Watchknight gains the spell-like ability to cast glyph of warding. This ability can be used once per day. Casting the spell this way only takes half the time, 5-minutes, instead of the normal casting time. The caster level is equal to the Watchknight’s level. At 7th level the Watchknight gains a second use of glyph of Warding and the casting time of this ability is reduced to 1 full-round action.

Wall of Law (Sp): At 4th level, the Watchknight gains the spell-like ability to cast wall of law. The caster level is equal to the Sentinel’s level.

Mace of Odo (Sp): At 5th level, the Watchknight gains the spell-like ability to cast mace of Odo. This can be cast 3 times per day and the caster level is equal to the Watchknight’s level.

At 10th level the Watchknight’s connection to Helm is so great that the Mace is not dismissed when it strikes a target. If it leaves the Sentinel’s hand or absorbs a spell the mace is dismissed as normal.

Domain Spontaneity (Ex): Beginning at 7th level a Watchknight selects one of the domains he has access to. From now on he may spontaneously cast spells from that domain. This ability functions just like a cleric who spontaneously casts cure or inflict spells.

Helm’s Guidance: ?!?!? No idea here. Suggestions?



Personally, I think Watchknight works better since its specific to Helm's religion... and a sentinel is generic enough that it could be used for something else.

Ok, you're giving up a level of spellcasting from what I read.

On the feat list, misspelled counterspell. Decent list.

Skills - sense motive would seem to fit this class. If you feel like you have to get rid of one Knowledge (the planes) kind of doesn't.

Helm's Guidance - If the Watchknight is actively guarding a target, they gain a +2 on all diplomacy, intimidate, spot, listen, and sense motive checks pertaining to protecting said target. In addition, if the target is an individual, as a swift action you can use the aid another special "attack" to provide the target a +2 bonus to AC.

Work?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
3391 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  23:25:33  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Personally, I think Watchknight works better since its specific to Helm's religion... and a sentinel is generic enough that it could be used for something else.


Agreed.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


Ok, you're giving up a level of spellcasting from what I read.

On the feat list, misspelled counterspell. Decent list.


Yea, 9/10 spellcasting. Figured that's more on-par with what other similar Prestige Classes had most of the time. And thank you for pointing out the spelling error!

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Skills - sense motive would seem to fit this class. If you feel like you have to get rid of one Knowledge (the planes) kind of doesn't.


That actually does fit better, the whole Sense someone's actions seems more fitting than knowledge of the planes and extra-planar beings.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Helm's Guidance - If the Watchknight is actively guarding a target, they gain a +2 on all diplomacy, intimidate, spot, listen, and sense motive checks pertaining to protecting said target. In addition, if the target is an individual, as a swift action you can use the aid another special "attack" to provide the target a +2 bonus to AC.

Work?


I think it does, thought since it's the Prestige Class's 9th level feature, maybe improve it to "gain a bonus equal to your Charisma modifier on all Diplomacy, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot checks? But maybe that's too powerful.

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."
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Diffan
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3391 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2017 :  23:53:22  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Made a easy reference table for the Class.

The Watchknight Table: 1-1

         Base        Fort    Ref    Will                      
Level Attack Bonus   Save    Save   Save                Special                                  Spellcasting
1st       +0          +2      +0     +2            Inquisition Domain,
                                                   Patient counter-strike                               —
2nd       +1          +3      +0     +3            Bonus feat                         +1 of existing divine spellcasting class
3rd       +2          +3      +1     +3            glyph of warding 1/day             +1 of existing divine spellcasting class
4th       +3          +4      +1     +4            wall of law 1/day                  +1 of existing divine spellcasting class
5th       +3          +4      +1     +4            mace of Odo                        +1 of existing divine spellcasting class 
6th       +4          +5      +2     +5            Bonus feat                         +1 of existing divine spellcasting class 
7th       +5          +5      +2     +5            glyph of warding 2/day             +1 of existing divine spellcasting class
8th       +6          +6      +2     +6            Domain spontaneity                 +1 of existing divine spellcasting class
9th       +7          +6      +3     +6            Helm's Guidance                    +1 of existing divine spellcasting class
10th      +7          +7      +3     +7            Bonus feat, greater mace of odo    +1 of existing divine spellcasting class

4E Realms = Great Taste, Less Filling.

"If WotC were to put out a box of free money, people would still complain how it was folded."

Edited by - Diffan on 28 Feb 2017 23:54:15
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sleyvas
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USA
5643 Posts

Posted - 01 Mar 2017 :  00:11:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
the charisma modifier doesn't seem too bad, since its specifically only applying to someone you're guarding.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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