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 Any idea why the T'uLung emperor was in Mulhorand?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 May 2017 :  14:36:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

The KT setting books only went up to 1357 DR and the 8th Emperor, Wai Gada Sinzu (47 years old). Ge had two unnamed older daughters (who couldn't take the throne except as regents) and two twin sons, Anju and Soreti. But they were only born in 1352 DR, making them 5 at the time.

Wai Yong's parentage is unknown. He's described as "young", but his exact age is uncertain. Looking at the possibilities...

If a son of one of the twins, assuming they fathered him no younger than, say, 16, Wai Yong would have been born after 1368 DR, and be a child younger than 7 in 1375 DR. He's not there on business. :) With a child emperor, an unexplained and secret journey, and an assumed identity, from a treacherous empire like T'u Lung, it's likely he's being kept safe from assassins in a faraway friendly/neutral foreign country. If he's emperor, then Anju and Soreti are dead, and likely one of Sinzu's daughters is ruling as regent. She may or may not want her nephew back to end her regency. ;) This is very T'u Lung.

Second, Yong might be a fifth son of Sinzu, born after 1357 DR. That would make him about 17 or less.

Alternatively, Yong could be a son of one of the daughters. If Anju and Soreti were killed before fathering a child, but after becoming 9th emperor, the throne could have passed to Yong. The daughters could be any age, so there's wide range of possibilities for Yong's age.

Finally, all of Sinzu's progeny might have been lost and Yong is the son of his brother.

The first seems the simplest, most likely, supplies a plot hook, and is in keeping with corrupt T'u Lung politics.



Were T'u Lung emperors limited to just one wife? Wai Yong could have been the son of a consort, later legitimized when his dad made the consort a second (or whatever) wife. And then, of course, something happened to the other potential heirs...

I do like the idea of a child emperor having to flee, but then I have to wonder: why Mulhorand?

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 29 May 2017 :  15:05:48  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

The KT setting books only went up to 1357 DR and the 8th Emperor, Wai Gada Sinzu (47 years old). Ge had two unnamed older daughters (who couldn't take the throne except as regents) and two twin sons, Anju and Soreti. But they were only born in 1352 DR, making them 5 at the time.

Wai Yong's parentage is unknown. He's described as "young", but his exact age is uncertain. Looking at the possibilities...

If a son of one of the twins, assuming they fathered him no younger than, say, 16, Wai Yong would have been born after 1368 DR, and be a child younger than 7 in 1375 DR. He's not there on business. :) With a child emperor, an unexplained and secret journey, and an assumed identity, from a treacherous empire like T'u Lung, it's likely he's being kept safe from assassins in a faraway friendly/neutral foreign country. If he's emperor, then Anju and Soreti are dead, and likely one of Sinzu's daughters is ruling as regent. She may or may not want her nephew back to end her regency. ;) This is very T'u Lung.

Second, Yong might be a fifth son of Sinzu, born after 1357 DR. That would make him about 17 or less.

Alternatively, Yong could be a son of one of the daughters. If Anju and Soreti were killed before fathering a child, but after becoming 9th emperor, the throne could have passed to Yong. The daughters could be any age, so there's wide range of possibilities for Yong's age.

Finally, all of Sinzu's progeny might have been lost and Yong is the son of his brother.

The first seems the simplest, most likely, supplies a plot hook, and is in keeping with corrupt T'u Lung politics.



Were T'u Lung emperors limited to just one wife? Wai Yong could have been the son of a consort, later legitimized when his dad made the consort a second (or whatever) wife. And then, of course, something happened to the other potential heirs...

I do like the idea of a child emperor having to flee, but then I have to wonder: why Mulhorand?



Possibly because even the Shou would respect Mulhorand as a civilized and well ordered land, so it would not be considered "barbaric" compared to most other Faerunian civilizations, yet it would be far enough away from threats to the Emperor.

And the protection of powerful Godkings has to appeal to Monarch on the run from enemies.

Also if moving through the hoardlands, Semphar, Mulghom, Mulhorand would be the first Empire beyond the reach of Shou Lung and enemies in Tu'Lung.

Also perhaps the handlers of the young Emperor also wished to gain powerful allies for the Emperor, Mulhorand would be hard to beat for that, at least before the Spellplague.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 29 May 2017 :  15:10:09  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also I believe Mulhorand and Kara Tur have a shared history in both areas having been ruled by the original Imaskar empire.
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BadCatMan
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Australia
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Posted - 29 May 2017 :  15:38:55  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By 1357 DR, Wai Gada Sinzu had five concubines and at least one wife, who gave birth to all four confirmed children.

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
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Posted - 29 May 2017 :  15:47:21  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I also think a secreted away seven years old child emperor sounds like a very intriguing option.

He might know of MT's suggested 'Tan Chin lich vessel'-idea, who might be the reason he needs the secret asylum. But how long would he have to remain in Skuld afore he'd be in position to claim the T'u Lung throne? He might be sent to Mulhorand to eventually combat the arcane might of Tan Chin with southern magics.

He'd need to be close enough to keep abreast with T'u Lung politics, making Mulhorand a decent choice because of its decent access to the Silk road.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 May 2017 :  16:51:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind

I also think a secreted away seven years old child emperor sounds like a very intriguing option.

He might know of MT's suggested 'Tan Chin lich vessel'-idea, who might be the reason he needs the secret asylum. But how long would he have to remain in Skuld afore he'd be in position to claim the T'u Lung throne? He might be sent to Mulhorand to eventually combat the arcane might of Tan Chin with southern magics.

He'd need to be close enough to keep abreast with T'u Lung politics, making Mulhorand a decent choice because of its decent access to the Silk road.



The problem is that unless he had some means of instantaneous communications, any political news would be weeks, if not months, out of date before it got to Mulhorand -- and it would be twice as long before his reaction could be implemented back home.

Also, an extended absence from your nation makes returning to rule it an iffy prospect. It can be done, but not having the next-in-line right there handy strengthens those who are trying to either take that position or blunt its authority.

While I did say I liked the idea of a child emperor having to flee, I see that as something that happens when that emperor is deposed, and flight is the only way to keep head and neck in close proximity to each other.

If you have to flee the country you're supposed to be ruling, then you're pretty much done as a ruler.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 29 May 2017 :  19:30:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

The KT setting books only went up to 1357 DR and the 8th Emperor, Wai Gada Sinzu (47 years old). Ge had two unnamed older daughters (who couldn't take the throne except as regents) and two twin sons, Anju and Soreti. But they were only born in 1352 DR, making them 5 at the time.

Wai Yong's parentage is unknown. He's described as "young", but his exact age is uncertain. Looking at the possibilities...

If a son of one of the twins, assuming they fathered him no younger than, say, 16, Wai Yong would have been born after 1368 DR, and be a child younger than 7 in 1375 DR. He's not there on business. :) With a child emperor, an unexplained and secret journey, and an assumed identity, from a treacherous empire like T'u Lung, it's likely he's being kept safe from assassins in a faraway friendly/neutral foreign country. If he's emperor, then Anju and Soreti are dead, and likely one of Sinzu's daughters is ruling as regent. She may or may not want her nephew back to end her regency. ;) This is very T'u Lung.

Second, Yong might be a fifth son of Sinzu, born after 1357 DR. That would make him about 17 or less.

Alternatively, Yong could be a son of one of the daughters. If Anju and Soreti were killed before fathering a child, but after becoming 9th emperor, the throne could have passed to Yong. The daughters could be any age, so there's wide range of possibilities for Yong's age.

Finally, all of Sinzu's progeny might have been lost and Yong is the son of his brother.

The first seems the simplest, most likely, supplies a plot hook, and is in keeping with corrupt T'u Lung politics.




Excellent research BadCatMan. Just to aid the conversation, I'm going to post where you found that information (I honestly had not seen it). I'm also going to post some other things I see about that royal family. Apparently the 8th emperor was a "not nice guy". It stands to reason, he may have been killed and another relative took the throne (he wasn't exceptionally powerful himself). In fact, in reading through the below, it would make sense if it was the 8th emperor's cousin who came to power following some kind of death of the 8th emperor's household due to some internal warfae. That sets up a new dynamic, because his cousin is LG and wants to aid the commoners... and presumably his children would be the same (who likely are adults possibly even in their 30's). With the corruption rampant in T'u Lung, it very well could be that the 9th and 10th emperors and the lords are not in agreement on how to rule.

Another interesting thing here comes with reading about the emperor's mother. It says "she will live until her son sees 60 summers". So, presumably, if her son, the emperor is 47 in 1357, then she likely dies in between 1369 and 1371. This could fit with the idea that her whole house from her on down was assassinated in 1370?
It would appear that the 8th emperor also had a secret concubine who was big in the yakuza. If the 8th emperor were murdered, could it have something to do with the mob? Did his secret concubine want to no longer be secret and her son declared future emperor?
So, assuming that the emperor, his children, and his mother all die, perhaps the emperor's cousin Wai Ghuto Sa, who is a LG samurai loved by the people for his civic works. Perhaps Wai Ghuto Sa became the 9th emperor unexpectedly, and Wai Yong is one of Wai Ghuto Sa's children? It does state that he actually already works as an intermediary for the emperor in many things, so it could fit that this cousin is next in line. If Wai Ghuto Sa had become emperor in say 1370, that would have made him 55. In 1375, his children would be adults, and it wouldn't be surprising if Wai Ghuto Sa died entering his 60's somehow either naturally or as a result of trying to end the corruption in the country.

To add even more fuel to this fire, in 1357, the emperor specifically kept some barbarian around his court who sought to kill him, but had the knack of uncovering other people who wanted to kill the emperor and outing them. Maybe 13 years later, this barbarian was successful?


From Kara-Tur boxed set 1st ed.

Wai Gada Sinzu, the grandson of Wai Gada Hysu,
and Eighth Emperor of the Lui Dynasty of T#146;u Lung,
bearer of the Imperial seals, known by the honorific
name of Emperor Wy;

capital city, West and East Wai Provinces;
wu jen 2d level;
LE, human, male.

The Emperor is a middle-aged man of 47 years with a barrel chest and muscular physique. He is never without his imperial guard, known as the Silent Tigers, who dress in black uniforms with brass buttons. His court is in the entrance halls of Dakarazu Palace in the capital city, and he only views the people on court days, once a week when he reviews and judges civil disturbances and captured criminals. The Emperor has a reputation of being bloodthirsty and cruel. He carries an ivory wand which is said to hold a magic that will render any man helpless, and also protects him against evil spirits.

Always at his side, the Emperor#146;s most trusted advisor is a mercenary named Ye#146;ahn Joshu, who leads the Silent Tigers. This man is about 35 years old, and is rumored to be a master of the #147;perfect accident," a
deadly ninja! The Emperor has five concubines, but only four children, his two older daughters and his twin sons, Anku and Soreti. He likes caged birds, but has collected them in excess, with a bird in almost every room of the palace. When he tires of a certain bird, he releases it so his companion Ye#146;ahn can practice his archery skills. It is rumored that he collects the skulls of his enemies and has built a mock throne from them, in which he sits new victims before he has them beheaded!

Empress Dowager Wai Locunni Eio, whose title
is #147;Queen Mother of the Gentle Winds;#148;
confined to Dakarazu Palace;

LN, human, woman.

The Emperor#146;s mother is a sophisticated woman of 72 years with iron gray hair and a straight back. Her demeanor is strict and prim, and she hovers about the court, insisting on correct procedures and proper ceremony. She is ruthless with those who cross her, and it is rumored that she carries a dagger dipped in the poison of the yankara root, which causes instant fiery pains. She is the only woman who can make demands of the Emperor and see them carried out.

As a young woman, Locunni Eio was a great beauty, and her portraits adorn tapestries and paintings in various rooms of the palace. Her long life is attributed to the prophecy and blessing of Ku He Long who said she would live until her son had measured 60 summers
#146; time. If she does fulfill this prophecy, she has many years left to subtly influence the court.


Rah Kigi Lo, the Emperor#146;s secret concubine;
closeted in Y#146;cho Kang;

yakuza 14th level;
NE, human, female.
The dragon-lady of Y#146;cho Kang is currently kept by the Emperor himself in apartments adjoining the royal summer house. This evil widow collected the riches of four men before she managed to reach the Emperor'#146;s court. Her holdings are, large, and her family accounts for about half of the crime in Y#146;cho Kang. The business of extortion and smuggling is run by Rah Kigi Lo through her two sons, Rah Kointo and Hayu Wan. These two thugs have been introduced into high T#146;u Lung society by her grasping plans, but they are more at home in street battles with the rival yakuza family, the Iyo Chan clan.

Rah Kigi Lo is a proud woman of excellent figure and hypnotic eyes. They say she casts a spell with her deep green eyes, and she killed her first husband with her own hands. She owns and runs a fleet of river barges and three warehouses in the village of Wai T#146;lu just downriver from Y#146;cho Kang. Rah#146;s most hated enemy is Wai Kung Chui, the widow who is the township officer for Shosun, a day upriver from Y#146;cho
Kang.

Wai Ghuto Sa, the Emperor#146;s cousin;
Chempka,

samurai 9th level;
LG, human, male.
Referred to as the "#147;White Hart of Chempka," the Emperor'#146;s cousin is an honorable man who owns an estate just outside the city on the road to Anechu. He is considered by most to be the most trustworthy man in the entire Wai clan. When he was 18, He led the Wai clan armies into the Canung Marsh to capture the outlaw Robo T#146;io and his band of cutthroats. The treasure they recovered was wisely invested by the
#147;white hart#148; and has grown into a large fortune.

At age 42, Wai Ghuto Sa is often sought after as intermediary in conflicts with the Wai clan or the Emperor. Sa lost two fingers of his left hand in personal combat with the bandits, so he always wears silk gloves to disguise this fact. He has three sons and a wife and he dotes on his family. The peasants regard him kindly for his civic works and the respect he returns them.


Nu#146;sazto Ichi;
Wai, the capital city;

barbarian 6th level;
CE, human, male;

The barbarian in the Emperor#146;s court is the treacherous Nu#146;sazto, a murdering son of a captured general of the Warring States. The Emperor is amused by the barbarian#146;s crude behavior and stumblings with the pomp of his court, and he keeps Nu#146;sazto around to annoy his mother. Nu#146;sazto is always planning to kill the Emperor, but he seems to always turn imperial evidence when his conspirators face the block. He has uncovered many assassination plots and has curried favor with the Emperor and other members of the Wai clan.

The barbarian dresses in his native clothes with conceit. The women of the court have flocked to him and he has had to fight two challengers for offending their masculine honor. In both of these duels he has killed mercilessly, and has the reputation for hating T#146;u Lung and its people. Some believe that he is seeking the perfect opportunity to murder the Emperor, but others believe he is living better than he ever could back in the south, and he will continue his charades to amuse the court. Nu#146;sazto has a quick temper, and often goes to elaborate means to gain revenge.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 May 2017 19:37:23
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
215 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2017 :  01:45:36  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Excellent research BadCatMan. Just to aid the conversation, I'm going to post where you found that information (I honestly had not seen it).


Sure. Apart from the stuff in the Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms, Volume I, it was originally in the timeline in Mad Monkey vs the Dragon Claw, which was reprinted in The Grand History of the Realms.

Another possibility is that young Wai Yong is emperor in blood only and the Lui Dynasty have been deposed. Wai supporters or a noble family have smuggled him out and intend to bring him back in ten years, marry him to one of their own, and make a bid for the throne, using Wai Yong only to give legitimacy and royal blood. (I don't know too much of T'u Lung though).

With no other advancement for T'u Lung or much of the rest of Kara-Tur, there's obviously countless ways of filling the gap. I've come to understand that's the main feature of Kara-Tur: a lot of holes for fans to fill in themselves.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2017 :  03:56:44  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Excellent research BadCatMan. Just to aid the conversation, I'm going to post where you found that information (I honestly had not seen it).


Sure. Apart from the stuff in the Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms, Volume I, it was originally in the timeline in Mad Monkey vs the Dragon Claw, which was reprinted in The Grand History of the Realms.

Another possibility is that young Wai Yong is emperor in blood only and the Lui Dynasty have been deposed. Wai supporters or a noble family have smuggled him out and intend to bring him back in ten years, marry him to one of their own, and make a bid for the throne, using Wai Yong only to give legitimacy and royal blood. (I don't know too much of T'u Lung though).

With no other advancement for T'u Lung or much of the rest of Kara-Tur, there's obviously countless ways of filling the gap. I've come to understand that's the main feature of Kara-Tur: a lot of holes for fans to fill in themselves.



I like this theory, and if I was going to do anything with that tidbit, it's likely the angle I'd play.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5634 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2017 :  13:13:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Excellent research BadCatMan. Just to aid the conversation, I'm going to post where you found that information (I honestly had not seen it).


Sure. Apart from the stuff in the Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms, Volume I, it was originally in the timeline in Mad Monkey vs the Dragon Claw, which was reprinted in The Grand History of the Realms.

Another possibility is that young Wai Yong is emperor in blood only and the Lui Dynasty have been deposed. Wai supporters or a noble family have smuggled him out and intend to bring him back in ten years, marry him to one of their own, and make a bid for the throne, using Wai Yong only to give legitimacy and royal blood. (I don't know too much of T'u Lung though).

With no other advancement for T'u Lung or much of the rest of Kara-Tur, there's obviously countless ways of filling the gap. I've come to understand that's the main feature of Kara-Tur: a lot of holes for fans to fill in themselves.



I like this idea too. It keeps the corruption in place. I'd go so far as to say that maybe that secret yakuza concubine, decided to oust the 8th emperor (and his family, and his other concubines, and THEIR children) and put her own child born of the royal line on the throne. However, she failed to finish off the LG samurai cousin and his children. She then blamed the barbarian who had been at court for so long, and for once, the barbarian had no sympathetic ear (because the samurai cousin... while good is also a little unimaginative when it comes to plots compared to the dead emperor). Advance the timeline 5 years... during which the yakuza concubine has her child legitimized by the samurai cousin... the 9th emperor is killed along with the rest of his family... except for Wai Yong. Now the yakuza concubine's child is on the throne.

Throw in another twist so as not to get rid of a usable NPC. In 1357, the "barbarian" was awarded a concubine from amongst the 8th emperor's servants as reward for saving the emperor's life again. This servant was someone that the "barbarian" was in love with already. The "barbarian" has a daughter in 1358, which is raised amongst the emperor's court. In 1370, when the 9th emperor comes to the throne amidst what appears to be the deadly actions of the "barbarian" he grants mercy to the daughter but not the wife of the "barbarian". From 1370 to 1375, love blooms between the thirdborn son of the 9th emperor (Wai Yong). The "barbarian"'s daughter begins to study magic and uses it to keep in contact with her father. In 1375 the "barbarian" shows up to rescue his daughter after she tells him something that makes him realize her life is in danger. The "barbarian" also seeks to save the life of the 9th emperor who had spared his daughter's life. Things go wrong. The 9th emperor dies. The "barbarian" is blamed again. He manages to smuggle his daughter and the 10th emperor, Wai Yong, to Mulhorand.... the place where the "barbarian" has been serving as a mercenary for the last few years in a war between Mulhorand and Unther. The "barbarian" is now meeting with servants of Set or Sebek to try and gather a team of assassins to depose the "Yakuza Concubine" who is acting as regent until her own son is old enough to be the emperor.

Meanwhile, maybe the 10th emperor Wai Yong is approached by an incarnation of Siamorphe following a dream vision who comes with an offer in hand.

Now, I gotta say.... I didn't see this going there AT ALL, but I like it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 31 May 2017 14:07:22
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13770 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2017 :  23:42:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I feel like someone just 'made up' that name without doing ANY K-T research. Personally, I'm just going to ignore it. That particular book was a precursor to 4e, and we should all follow WotC's lead and simply ignore everything connected to 4e.

Seriously, it was a craptastic 'throw out' entry.

Buuuuuuuuut... if I were to accept it, you guys all overlooked the most obvious (and simplest) explanation - one of the twins took a new name. It happens all the time, ESPECIALLY when someone is raised to the rank of Emperor (similar to how Popes and Emperors did it in the RW). IIRC, Shou emperors actually had a history of doing just that (and a history of 're-writing' history to suit their own ends, as well). There is ZERO need to make-up a whole new character never mentioned before.

And you could use my Tan-Chin lore, or not - it works either way. If Tan-Chin did finally 'make his move' as he'd been planning all along, and possessed one of the twins, it would make perfect sense for the other to flee (and make even more sense that he would change his name... although the way that entry is worded I would have to admit it doesn't appear to be an 'alias' or some-such). And who would know better (and be more worried) that the child-emperor's personality have changed than his own twin brother? I like the 'political asylum' angle, I just want it to tie-in better with previous K-T history and characters.

As for "why Mulhorand"? As I've said previously, they have ANCIENT ties. Perhaps there was some Imaskari artifact 'lost' in the Mulhor Marches way back when, and some record of its where-abouts showed up in some dusty old tome in the Imperial Library.

I could do a million things with that, but the first thing that jumps to mind is some form of 'Golem control', because Tan-Chin would have most-certainly used the armies of clay golems he stashed back when he was emperor (and there are at least two such armies in canon). If the key to Tan-Chins power lie in those golems, then it would behoove someone in that position to find some way of countering it (hence the trip to Mulhorand).

But as I said, all (or some) of that can be used piece-meal. One twin is 'on the run', and the other must find something (perhaps as mundane as 'allies', or maybe some type of forgotten artifact). It may even be a 'holy relic' capable of driving-out 'demons' (possessing spirits). Considering Mulhorands own experience with extra-planer entities taking-over people (those Manifestation), Mulhorand would be a good place to start. I know I sound like I went right back to Tan-Chin (), but if you don't like using the lich it could even be an actual demon, like the Copper Demon of Troos, or some other demi-power (exarch) that we may or may not have heard of. In that case, you could possibly even spin-it with Tan-Chin (YES, I have a fixation! LOL) being on the 'good side' this time out (he's been portrayed as both good and bad in the histories), and trying to help find whatever it is the emperor-in-exile needs (perhaps for selfish reasons, but it could just be one small part of a major Adventure Path). In that case, I would stick Tan-Chin back in Solon.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 01 Jun 2017 23:46:07
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
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Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  00:30:21  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Mark. Simple is most always better. Taking a new name on ascension to a throne is a neat fix and one I have to remember to keep up my sleeve for future projects.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5634 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  00:33:42  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I feel like someone just 'made up' that name without doing ANY K-T research. Personally, I'm just going to ignore it. That particular book was a precursor to 4e, and we should all follow WotC's lead and simply ignore everything connected to 4e.

Seriously, it was a craptastic 'throw out' entry.

Buuuuuuuuut... if I were to accept it, you guys all overlooked the most obvious (and simplest) explanation - one of the twins took a new name. It happens all the time, ESPECIALLY when someone is raised to the rank of Emperor (similar to how Popes and Emperors did it in the RW). IIRC, Shou emperors actually had a history of doing just that (and a history of 're-writing' history to suit their own ends, as well). There is ZERO need to make-up a whole new character never mentioned before.

And you could use my Tan-Chin lore, or not - it works either way. If Tan-Chin did finally 'make his move' as he'd been planning all along, and possessed one of the twins, it would make perfect sense for the other to flee (and make even more sense that he would change his name... although the way that entry is worded I would have to admit it doesn't appear to be an 'alias' or some-such). And who would know better (and be more worried) that the child-emperor's personality have changed than his own twin brother? I like the 'political asylum' angle, I just want it to tie-in better with previous K-T history and characters.

As for "why Mulhorand"? As I've said previously, they have ANCIENT ties. Perhaps there was some Imaskari artifact 'lost' in the Mulhor Marches way back when, and some record of its where-abouts showed up in some dusty old tome in the Imperial Library.

I could do a million things with that, but the first thing that jumps to mind is some form of 'Golem control', because Tan-Chin would have most-certainly used the armies of clay golems he stashed back when he was emperor (and there are at least two such armies in canon). If the key to Tan-Chins power lie in those golems, then it would behoove someone in that position to find some way of countering it (hence the trip to Mulhorand).

But as I said, all (or some) of that can be used piece-meal. One twin is 'on the run', and the other must find something (perhaps as mundane as 'allies', or maybe some type of forgotten artifact). It may even be a 'holy relic' capable of driving-out 'demons' (possessing spirits). Considering Mulhorands own experience with extra-planer entities taking-over people (those Manifestation), Mulhorand would be a good place to start. I know I sound like I went right back to Tan-Chin (), but if you don't like using the lich it could even be an actual demon, like the Copper Demon of Troos, or some other demi-power (exarch) that we may or may not have heard of. In that case, you could possibly even spin-it with Tan-Chin (YES, I have a fixation! LOL) being on the 'good side' this time out (he's been portrayed as both good and bad in the histories), and trying to help find whatever it is the emperor-in-exile needs (perhaps for selfish reasons, but it could just be one small part of a major Adventure Path). In that case, I would stick Tan-Chin back in Solon.



Nah, that doesn't really fit (the twin thing). The previous emperor was specifically named as the 8th emperor. This entry called this emperor the 10th emperor. So, 2 emperors had passed through within 18 years. That doesn't scream twin. Someone also noted that it called him a young emperor(which totally had bypassed me when I first read it), whereas the 8th emperor was 47 in 1357. Also to note, this is just the emperor of T'u Lung not the Celestial Emperor.

I wouldn't say that the 3 thousand years between Mulhorand and Shou Lung (previously Anok-Imaskar) would be all that close, especially with so many countries between them. Hell, Mulhorand barely keeps tabs with Semphar and Murghom that it nominally controls. Then there's the no-man's land of Ra-Khati (as in any man that enters isn't allowed to leave).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Jun 2017 00:55:35
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  05:18:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One twin gains the throne... and turns up dead. Second twin then gets throne and flees to Mulhorand to escape whatever happened to his brother.

*BAM*

9th & 10th emperor.

Sometimes you have to poor a lot of sauce over a bad-tasting fish, but other times you only need to 'cook it' a bit longer.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jun 2017 05:19:40
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5634 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  13:04:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

One twin gains the throne... and turns up dead. Second twin then gets throne and flees to Mulhorand to escape whatever happened to his brother.

*BAM*

9th & 10th emperor.

Sometimes you have to poor a lot of sauce over a bad-tasting fish, but other times you only need to 'cook it' a bit longer.



Ok, so you're not trying to say twin of the 8th emperor. Why is this any better than the other ideas put forth? Either way you're making up a new NPC, because I don't recall the next in line for the throne being detailed. The other at least preserves the corruption of the state and in fact makes the yakuza more powerful there. It also preserves a bunch of the NPC's for use outside of the noble household itself and puts them in logical places for them.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 02 Jun 2017 13:06:43
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13770 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2017 :  16:37:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I am making up 'the other twin'?

I'm sorry, I was unaware that there was only ONE 'twin'. LMAO

It was a RIDICULOUS ENTRY, because the timeline was completely ignored (otherwise there would be no need for any of this discussion), and a character was made-up 'out of the blue' for no other reason than "because I can", which doesn't reference the actual heirs we knew about IN CANON.

What I would rather do is steer it back to CANON, rather than go off and create things whole-cloth. Now, in regards to K-T, I personally think it needs a complete overhaul, but I would like that overhaul based in past canon, not created by single, 'throw-out' references that aren't connected to anything.

And if you recall, I began this by saying I would simply "toss it out" because its so bad - I am actually trying to compromise here by keeping it. The easiest way to be rid of it is to say he was a total imposter - someone posing as the Shou Emperor while that empire was 'in turmoil' (due to the Spellplague - we have NO IDEA what sort of crazy crap went on there... which is why its wide open for a reboot in 5e). Thats what I would want, but I'm trying to figure out a way of keeping the entry and turning it onto something niftier, while still keeping true to the previous lore.

And why I am I so 'stuck' on the previous lore. despite my claims of wanting to reboot it? Its simple - I am being selfish. I have lore already written (at this point its just 'in my head' since I no longer have that old computer, and the WotC forums - where I wrote a lot of it down - are gone). I have already extrapolated the timeline forward with all the relevant bits, and the twins play a major role in all that, and for all my hard work to just be 'thrown out' because of one single entry is balderdash.

To be honest, I wish I had not had an interest in K-T back then, because a LOT of the stuff I was working on all over the place (including here - the CKC) got 'over-written'. It was like my 'areas of interest' became a lightening rod for ill-thought-out lore.

I am even afraid to publish maps at this point because I am afraid of drawing attention to regions I want left 'pristine' (for my own lore). I am finding out that the DM's guild is a double-edged sword.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Jun 2017 16:39:51
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5634 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  00:29:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So I am making up 'the other twin'?

I'm sorry, I was unaware that there was only ONE 'twin'. LMAO

It was a RIDICULOUS ENTRY, because the timeline was completely ignored (otherwise there would be no need for any of this discussion), and a character was made-up 'out of the blue' for no other reason than "because I can", which doesn't reference the actual heirs we knew about IN CANON.

What I would rather do is steer it back to CANON, rather than go off and create things whole-cloth. Now, in regards to K-T, I personally think it needs a complete overhaul, but I would like that overhaul based in past canon, not created by single, 'throw-out' references that aren't connected to anything.

And if you recall, I began this by saying I would simply "toss it out" because its so bad - I am actually trying to compromise here by keeping it. The easiest way to be rid of it is to say he was a total imposter - someone posing as the Shou Emperor while that empire was 'in turmoil' (due to the Spellplague - we have NO IDEA what sort of crazy crap went on there... which is why its wide open for a reboot in 5e). Thats what I would want, but I'm trying to figure out a way of keeping the entry and turning it onto something niftier, while still keeping true to the previous lore.

And why I am I so 'stuck' on the previous lore. despite my claims of wanting to reboot it? Its simple - I am being selfish. I have lore already written (at this point its just 'in my head' since I no longer have that old computer, and the WotC forums - where I wrote a lot of it down - are gone). I have already extrapolated the timeline forward with all the relevant bits, and the twins play a major role in all that, and for all my hard work to just be 'thrown out' because of one single entry is balderdash.

To be honest, I wish I had not had an interest in K-T back then, because a LOT of the stuff I was working on all over the place (including here - the CKC) got 'over-written'. It was like my 'areas of interest' became a lightening rod for ill-thought-out lore.

I am even afraid to publish maps at this point because I am afraid of drawing attention to regions I want left 'pristine' (for my own lore). I am finding out that the DM's guild is a double-edged sword.



Ok, I'm finally getting where you're going. I reread the entry for the emperor and saw the names of the twins (which don't match Wai Yong). I had thought it just said x daughters and x sons. Honestly, I went with the idea of the whole family minus the cousins being wiped out by the yakuza simply because it sets up the yakuza running T'u Lung, along with the idea that his mother is predicted to die in 1370... and if she's predicted to die then and there needs to be 2 emperor changes between 1370 and 1375 then why not have it be some coup.... and if its a coup, let it be successful at least for the immediate royal family. Then as I read about the other NPC's... a secret concubine of the emperor who is a yakuza... some barbarian who is "known" to be plotting the emperor's demise, but he's still at court... a noble cousin who is like the emperor's right hand in negotiations, so a possible replacement. Plus, I like the idea that this 10th emperor isn't a dirt bag's son (the 8th emperor sounds flipping nuts), and that maybe the party can come to his aide to try and clear up all the corruption in T'u Lung. However, I can see why you thought I went this path because the names wouldn't match up now.

I just think the other idea is boring.... dirt bag emperor and his mom are killed, and his kids take over, then one of those dies. Honestly though, the 10th emperor could be the son of the 9th at the age they'd be... the 8th emperor is 60 is 1370, so I'd imagine the twins were probably at least in their teens in 1357 (assuming he had them in his mid-late 30's), so probably in their late 20's/early 30's in 1370, so they would probably already have kids of their own.

Now, your Tan-Chin idea tying into the reason that the "noble" emperor left could be interesting. Putting T'u Lung under the thumb of the yakuza, but then also adding Tan-Chin above that mess and possibly providing clandestine aid in the coup in 1370 could be interesting. Hell, having the kid emperor be something like a batman figure (as in brooding over his father's death and wanting adventurers to help him unravel the mystery of "all the darkness that's filling T'u Lung"... not turning him into a hero)... that could prove interesting. It could also prove interesting if he somewhat works both sides of the fence (i.e. working with noble adventurers and say the church of set, but sending different groups on different goals).... you know, the ends justify the means.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5634 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  01:02:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, but now that I'm seeing the idea of the twins. Simpler solution. 8th emperor dies. Firstborn twin becomes emperor. His son is next in line. Secondborn twin however secretly kills firstborn twin and intends to also kill the son. Son of firstborn twin flees to Mulhorand. Secondborn twin seizes throne as "regent" while they try to "find" the "true 10th emperor". That could be interesting too.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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see
Learned Scribe

188 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  04:08:16  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Hell, Mulhorand barely keeps tabs with Semphar and Murghom that it nominally controls.

I note, however, that Semphar is a point in common. Semphar was a vassal state of Shou Lung during the Kao dynasty. The practical level of contact between Mulhorand and Shou/T'u Lung might be minimal, but the Shou should have a definite concept of the place.

So, if T'u Lung is dangerous for the young true emperor, and Shou Lung unlikely to welcome a pretender to the rule of an "empire" they still see as an illegitimate secessionist state, where does he go? All the other states nearby are within the range of T'u assassins, and are thought of as barbarian lands. If far-off Mulhorand has a reputation as being a civilized land (like the Chinese concept of the Roman Empire, "Daquin"), it could seem like the best place to flee to.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13770 Posts

Posted - 03 Jun 2017 :  19:11:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Semphar IS a 'vassal state' of Shou-Lung at the end of the 2e era, following the Tuigan war. Some of that was covered in a 'Hordelands' article in 3e. Semphar belonged to the Shou, and Murghôm continued to belong to Mulhorand (which is a pretty interesting dynamic) in the 3e era.

I hypothesized Shou-Lung would build one of its famous canals (they have several rather long and large ones), connecting their massive river-system to Gbor Nor (Brightstar Lake). Considering the 'rapids' on the Rauthynflow were also cleared as of 3e, that would give Shou access to the Inner Sea... but through Mulhorandi territory. That would mean there would have been some cooperation between the two massive, ancient empires. Of course, that sea-portal in the Dragonmere kind of alleviates the need for the canal... but I also hypothesize Cormyr would have seized said portal for 'security reasons' (especially given their expansionist behavior post-3e).

I'd much prefer a more realistic reason for Shou being 'in the west' than that Gate/portal, and a canal linking Semphar more strongly to Shou would be a lot of fun and useful for us (I also picture the wall being gone, (which it is - it exploded when the Spellplague hit) and being replaced by a massive canyon and 'landrise' now. That keeps the intergrity of a 'barrier' intact, while giving us something more normal/useful to play with, without having to rely on a derivative (RW) 'Great wall'.

Of course, that last part has little to do with the other things I hypothesized going on - just thought I'd mention it. I discussed it (briefly) with BJ at Gencon, hoping to sneak some of it into canon (I have some really 'kewl' lore regarding a natural bridge that formed over the chasm... which is now also a dwarven city). Then again, with the DM's Guild being what it is, I guess I don't need a WotC employee anymore to sneak my ideas in somewhere.


EDIT:
And even if you don't like the canal idea, I see absolutely no reason why Shou-Lung wouldn't build/enlarge the Semphari ports on Gbor Nor and build their dragonships THERE, as well (especially if Tan Chin is the one sitting on the throne now - he is Imaskari, after all. SORRY, couldn't resist mentioning him again... I need some Lo-Pan in FR LOL). The 4e lore with the 'return' of Deep Imaskar could have complicated all of this - a million ways to spin things, once again.

EDIT2:
I'm not sure where the Innarlith canal stands as of 5e - we haven't heard, AFAIK. I believe it was finally finished regardless as of the 4e lore (maybe in the GHotR?), but that doesn't mean it survived the Wailing Years intact. If it does still exist, and my idea for the other canal (or just enlarged Semphar ports making Shou ships) bears fruit, it would mean Shou Dragonships can be found in the Sea of Swords as well (and the Lake of Steam, Shining Sea, etc). It might even behoove them to use that passage to trade with Zakhara, rather than go all the way around lower Malatra (Jambu-Dweepam) to do so. Both seem rather round-about, though, when they could just reestablish their port over by Tempat Larang (just east of Zakhara's 'Fallen Kingdoms'). Thats also something Tan Chin would very much like to do (He had one of his 'golem armies' stashed there).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jun 2017 19:24:34
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5634 Posts

Posted - 06 Jun 2017 :  19:08:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its odd where sometimes things come to you from.... I had made a joking thread about spaham for sale in the realms, only to have someone mention the city of Chunming. I never realized one of the major spelljamming ports is in T'u Lung. I thought they were more northerly in Shou Lung proper. Not sure what to do with it, but man there's a lot to absorb in kara-tur. Given the corruption in the region, yakuza activity, and spelljammer contact... I'm interested in this region more. I would love to see some updates done.

The T#146;u Lung Calendar of Events
The Year 2607 (or 1357 DR)

Poisoned chunming pepper wine is served to the Emperor, and he gets very ill, but lives through the ordeal. He blames the Shin family of Ausa, and demands the leaders of this clan be executed and their heads be brought to him. The Shin clan is warned and escapes the punishment by hiding somewhere in the hills of E#146;sang Yi. Some believe the Nugha are in league with the Shin clan but no one can find them. An Imperial edict offers 15,000 Ch#146;ien to be split equally among the people who find and bring the Shins to justice.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BadCatMan
Learned Scribe

Australia
215 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  12:33:10  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This year, I've been adding some Kara-Tur lore to the Forgotten Realms Wiki, albeit focusing on Koryo and working up key religious matters like the Celestial Empire, the Path of Enlightenment, and the Faith of the Nine Travellers.

But I got particularly interested in the Way, Kara-Tur's Taoism knock-off though not quite the same. I liked how the Yin & Yang philosophy of the Way is reflected in its White and Black sects, opposing yet inseparable; in their competing struggles for control of Shou Lung; and in the two rival empires of Shou Lung and T'u Lung, in which each is respectively dominant, or so it seems. And the wheel keeps on turning, so first one is ascendant, and then the other. There's this constant theme of two opposing forces that are truly one. The more I looked at one side of the Way, the more I'd find potential elements of the other: a White Chung Tao healed Prince Shin Lu but this left a darkness in his soul, and he went on to split Shou Lung, becoming first emperor of T'u Lung. This is all just as it should be for the Yin and Yang and the famous taijitu symbol. It's a surprisingly clever (if overly subtle and under-developed) bit of metaplot from the KTCS.

Consider, in the T'u Lung chapter, all references to the Way (in the Hsao Chronicles quotes and in Fargh Choi's training of the narrator) use the "superior man" language of the Black Chung Tao, yet their arguments seem almost those of the White Chung Tao. The Dark Way seems to be ascendant in T'u Lung, given its corruption, but perhaps the Light Way pierces through.

Meanwhile, the White Chung Tao are ascendant in Shou Lung, but the Black Chung Tao are rising, infiltrating the Imperial court through the corruption of the Confucianist Path of Enlightenment. I just read Dragonwall and saw Shou Lung was at its heart a nest of corruption and scheming, and hit hard by the Tuigan war. It's ripe to fall to the Dark Way.

And always the wheel turns: as the White Chung Tao fall and the Black Chung Tao rise in Shou Lung, perhaps it's time for the White Chung Tao to rise in T'u Lung and the Light Way to lead.

In that sense, young Wai Yong could be the hope of the White Chung Tao, being raised in safety in a good, foreign land like Mulhorand (a good example by Shou standards) before he takes the throne. Or he's the secret of the Black Chung Tao, as part of a bid for a return to power against a new, good emperor.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Bureaucrat of the Forgotten Realms Wiki

Edited by - BadCatMan on 07 Jun 2017 12:35:28
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
509 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  14:27:32  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does Mulhorand really fits the concept of "good" in a universe where good is a tangible force? I guess, yeah, is more good than Unther, but with its slavery and stuff, I cannot catalog it less than Neutral going to Lawful Evil.

I mean, yes, it can be considered "good" by Tu' Lung standards, but it cannot be really good (not while willingly depriving others of their freedom), and therefore cannot be of use of the Way, that works with the actual concept of good.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 07 Jun 2017 14:36:24
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5634 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  15:43:21  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

This year, I've been adding some Kara-Tur lore to the Forgotten Realms Wiki, albeit focusing on Koryo and working up key religious matters like the Celestial Empire, the Path of Enlightenment, and the Faith of the Nine Travellers.

But I got particularly interested in the Way, Kara-Tur's Taoism knock-off though not quite the same. I liked how the Yin & Yang philosophy of the Way is reflected in its White and Black sects, opposing yet inseparable; in their competing struggles for control of Shou Lung; and in the two rival empires of Shou Lung and T'u Lung, in which each is respectively dominant, or so it seems. And the wheel keeps on turning, so first one is ascendant, and then the other. There's this constant theme of two opposing forces that are truly one. The more I looked at one side of the Way, the more I'd find potential elements of the other: a White Chung Tao healed Prince Shin Lu but this left a darkness in his soul, and he went on to split Shou Lung, becoming first emperor of T'u Lung. This is all just as it should be for the Yin and Yang and the famous taijitu symbol. It's a surprisingly clever (if overly subtle and under-developed) bit of metaplot from the KTCS.

Consider, in the T'u Lung chapter, all references to the Way (in the Hsao Chronicles quotes and in Fargh Choi's training of the narrator) use the "superior man" language of the Black Chung Tao, yet their arguments seem almost those of the White Chung Tao. The Dark Way seems to be ascendant in T'u Lung, given its corruption, but perhaps the Light Way pierces through.

Meanwhile, the White Chung Tao are ascendant in Shou Lung, but the Black Chung Tao are rising, infiltrating the Imperial court through the corruption of the Confucianist Path of Enlightenment. I just read Dragonwall and saw Shou Lung was at its heart a nest of corruption and scheming, and hit hard by the Tuigan war. It's ripe to fall to the Dark Way.

And always the wheel turns: as the White Chung Tao fall and the Black Chung Tao rise in Shou Lung, perhaps it's time for the White Chung Tao to rise in T'u Lung and the Light Way to lead.

In that sense, young Wai Yong could be the hope of the White Chung Tao, being raised in safety in a good, foreign land like Mulhorand (a good example by Shou standards) before he takes the throne. Or he's the secret of the Black Chung Tao, as part of a bid for a return to power against a new, good emperor.



Thank you for that. It sounds a lot like how the Star Wars "Force" should be described (less of how it actually IS described, at least in film and TV cartoons), especially since I know its based on oriental concepts. I like the idea that the followers of the Dark Way believe that there are superior beings and they should shape the direction of the world.... or to mirror in superhero terms "With great power comes great responsibility".... one can see how that philosophy can be both good and bad. Then the idea of the followers of the Light Way believe that all beings are enlightened and balance should be striven for seems very democratic.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5634 Posts

Posted - 07 Jun 2017 :  15:58:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Does Mulhorand really fits the concept of "good" in a universe where good is a tangible force? I guess, yeah, is more good than Unther, but with its slavery and stuff, I cannot catalog it less than Neutral going to Lawful Evil.

I mean, yes, it can be considered "good" by Tu' Lung standards, but it cannot be really good (not while willingly depriving others of their freedom), and therefore cannot be of use of the Way, that works with the actual concept of good.



Bear in mind that its slavery is looked over by the church and its slaves are treated well and not abused. I wouldn't say its evil, because in other cultures peasants are left to fend for themselves, provide their own housing, compete for the lowest dollar... such that in some cultures free folk may actually live worse than slaves kept in other cultures. In fact, that's the mantra in Mulhorand... that the slaves in Mulhorand live better lives than free folk in other cultures... what if that's true? I'm not looking to start a whole argument over the good/evil nature of slavery, but it is worth considering.

In view of "the way" this would seem more like the people of Mulhorand are followers of the Dark Way. They believe in the superiority of the Mulan folk. They believe in the superiority of their religion. Therefore, they see themselves as necessarily needing to "guide" the lesser folk down the "correct path" (which isn't necessarily evil).

Man, that really fits the idea I had of Siamorphe getting imported into Mulhorand and T'u Lung both. Most people in the game would agree that she's a good deity, and yet at the same time she's definitely a follower of the Dark Way and I bet most would equate the Dark Way with evil.

BadCatman.... you just infected me.... thank you...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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